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Grath Telkin
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.22 16:25:00 -
[31]
ITT Tyrrax cries poormouth after having robbed 3/4 of EVE.
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MissBolyai
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.22 16:30:00 -
[32]
I just like the pic. It's p. hot.
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Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.22 16:40:00 -
[33]
moongoo and winning tournaments is more profitable than robbling :[
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Seldarine
Minmatar Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.06.22 16:59:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Zenst
Originally by: Seldarine The main problem we had on the finals was the 24 hour clone jump timer, and not being able to just unplug implants and plug in different sets to switch setups out. We were kinda forced into having to stick with that one setup in the final matches because of this.
I think either baning hardwirings, or limiting them in some way could lead to more diversity of setups in the final day and there being less of an isk barrier for some teams.
Why do you mention this after the event, things not work out for you - allow me to explain.
This is an alliance tournement - ALLIANCE. A ALLIANCE is made up of several corps and as such has a large pool of player to draw from. Now if your whole stratergy resolves around having the same 10 people in every fight it is an extreemly safe bet that you are either:
1) Realy a corp pretending to be an alliance
2) Unprepared
3) Both of the above.
As mentioned this is an ALLIANCE tournement not a fixed 10 man event.
So in all honestly anybody sad enough to agree with you after the event has taken part is frankly a cry baby as you all knew the rules before it started, you know whats involved and after like 8 of them I'd think playing a sore loser now is so lamentably late in the day, its pathetic. Had you raised this prior to the event when the rules were first published THEN I would of accepted your input as a valid comment but after the whole event has transpired - the 8th alliance tournement and you have the ordacidy to troll it with some perverse perception of it being a 10 man click group of ego's is frankly....well i expected better from you Sir, truely
Now if you care to raise the point of a 10 man fixed team/ship tournement and see how that floats then best of luck to you; But it would make for a boring match and also remove so much planning that strategicly it would be utterly spastasizzed into something nobody would care for.
If you still feel that srtongly about this then - organise your own event and dont compete in a alilance tournement were you have the blinkered perception that you can only pick 10 people when you can pick anybody in your whole alliance for any of the match's and certainly dont go crying about such matters after you have had your ass's handed too you.
BOTTOM LINE HAD YOU WON YOU WOULD NOT BE MAKING THIS POST AND YOU UTTERLY KNOW I'M RIGHT
Oh when ccp asked for feedback I must have misread it, they obviously only want feedback from the winners rite. ______________________________
Seldarine
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w33d wizard420
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Posted - 2010.06.22 17:23:00 -
[35]
Edited by: w33d wizard420 on 22/06/2010 17:23:06 5% hardwirings or top faction ammo might have made a difference in one or two of the close matches, but it still comes down to better setups, tactics, and pilots. But hey why blame ourselves for losing when we can scapegoat something else!
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Thresh Avery
Best Path Inc. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.22 19:06:00 -
[36]
I think it's important to remember CCP's limitations when suggesting new rules or changes to the tournament for next year.
For example, CCP have always stuck to the format of running a tournament over 6 whole days, unless this was different in the first 3 tournaments that i missed being a high sec mining nublet.
So trying to change the finals weekend to allow for a match cap of 2 wouldn't really be appropriate. I think the current format is fine, but perhaps CCP should warn teams in the very first elimination that "you could be fighting 4 matches on the final day" so they know one day in advance, not being given advice like 2 hours before their next match that they should have been prepared for today, haha.
I think banning hardwirings is reasonable given the isk drain, but like someone else said the PG8/KMB-75 are nice little things and allow flexibility. Teams will learn to cope without though. Mindlinks should stay.
Again, suggesting banning hardwirings/top tier faction ammo just for flagship pilots makes the GM's job harder and more prone to mistakes being made, but my concern could be overly cautious.
Nice thread though, important discussion.
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Goberth Ludwig
eXceed Inc. HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.06.22 20:00:00 -
[37]
I really dont think the price of implants and mega-ammo is a problem. That stuff really doesnt make such colossal difference.
Imo the only cost to worry about would be the cost of officers webs/neuts if 1- flagships stay 2- battleships points are reduced so they dont suck anymore
kmb/pg implants are reasonably priced and some investment should be required to compete
- Gob
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Alphapop
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Posted - 2010.06.22 20:13:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Seldarine The main problem we had on the finals was the 24 hour clone jump timer, and not being able to just unplug implants and plug in different sets to switch setups out. We were kinda forced into having to stick with that one setup in the final matches because of this.
I think either baning hardwirings, or limiting them in some way could lead to more diversity of setups in the final day and there being less of an isk barrier for some teams.
Do exactly what your corp says to the people you gank in Niarja and the surrounding area.. "Shut up and Play." Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it. Learn to work around it, it's not that hard.
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Edna Sputum
Blueprint Haus Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2010.06.22 20:27:00 -
[39]
I am not convinced that hardwirings and mega ammo played that large a role in fights, but its easy enough to check. CCp could just publish everyoens ship fits and implants of every player entered and ship fielded.
________________
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and used against you.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1282973W |
Obyrith
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Posted - 2010.06.22 21:51:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Obyrith on 22/06/2010 21:54:18
I can understand why PL would want to hang onto both the chance to min/max everything and the advantage of megabux, but the tournament format should be governed at least partly by entertainment value, not only what makes for the most ZOMG l33t PVP.
CO2 fielding Frekis is something visible to everyone: people can wince when those ships go into structure. They add to the drama. No one has the faintest ****ing idea what implants teams are using and most Eve players probably couldn't name what the majority of them do.
Spending a lot on a flagship that might help win a match is different to ripping out hundreds of millions just so you can change setup, when the previous setup was by definition working pretty well. Flagships are also optional and can be fielded at any time, adding unpredictability instead of subtracting it.
Deadspace ammo is the same thing: no advantage to the game format, a big disadvantage in terms of isk barrier to entry. No one has any idea if you're using it because of the number of factors involved. It's a big yawn.
Fitting hardwirings should not be exempt from the ban: they're all balanced by the limit on the number of slots available per player: the idea being that a fitting plant is stopping you from increasing some other stat. There's easily enough flexibility in the Eve fitting system to say that no fitting strategy requires a +5% CPU/PG implant - it just allows more minmaxing no one gets to see.
No implant or ammo type may make a difference by itself, but added together it's a whole bunch of stuff that costs a lot and adds little.
None of these changes would result in significantly longer matches: there are, after all, tanking implant which affect match length just as much as the damage implants, and fitting implants let you fit more tank anyway. Anyway, matches that are effectively over within the first twenty seconds suck almost as much as the ones that resemble turtles humping each other.
TL; DR - the tournament isn't just about you, PL. Give me my bread and circuses goddammit.
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Klee Tarris
Amarr Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.06.22 23:21:00 -
[41]
Well I wsn't gonna reply cus I'm very drunk, but as so often happens, I'm very drunk so I'm gonna reply...
If the rules say something can be used then a team that can afford said something would be daft not to use it if it would give them an advantage. Of course they risk losing that advantage it if their plans go to ****, but that's risk vs reward for you.
Everyone has jump clone timers, and as someone already said, an alliance has a load of pilots, not just 10... plan ahead more...
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Grath Telkin
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.23 00:21:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Grath Telkin on 23/06/2010 00:21:59
Originally by: Obyrith
TL; DR - the tournament isn't just about you, PL. Give me my bread and circuses goddammit.
So your team is broke, so my team has to lower its salary cap
Your team is broke, so my team has to use a beat up ass junk car at the race
Your team has no talent, so my team has to handicap itself
Voltron, Hydra, Co2 all had time to procure all the things they'd need for all their set ups over the past few months, maybe some of them should have skipped the "build the flag ship that costs 11 billion" stage and instead procured some more implants.
NO team that fielded a flag ship should have the nerve to cry poor mouth, stop being sore losers and just start planning for the tournament as soon as possible.
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Zofran
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Posted - 2010.06.23 00:33:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Obyrith
I can understand why PL would want to hang onto both the chance to min/max everything and the advantage of megabux, but the tournament format should be governed at least partly by entertainment value.
PL have been putting a lot of resources into the tourney that most alliaces can, they take months off from active ops and such to focus, nothing that other teams could not do. Or better yet, figure out that all the money in the setups is worthless without good FCing.
Originally by: Obyrith
CO2 fielding Frekis is something visible to everyone: people can wince when those ships go into structure. They add to the drama. No one has the faintest ****ing idea what implants teams are using and most Eve players probably couldn't name what the majority of them do.
When PL fielded the 'safe' ECM team and everyone cried about it taking an average length of time? double standards are cool but providing swift victories and such is also a crowd pleaser. The Finals was a let down because Hydra made a bad call, not because PL didnt bring an exciting team.
Originally by: Obyrith
Spending a lot on a flagship that might help win a match is different to ripping out hundreds of millions just so you can change setup, when the previous setup was by definition working pretty well. Flagships are also optional and can be fielded at any time, adding unpredictability instead of subtracting it.
ITT : You answer your own question. Look at player names and dont make assumptions that they are all the same or swapping ships all the time.
Originally by: Obyrith
Deadspace ammo is the same thing: no advantage to the game format, a big disadvantage in terms of isk barrier to entry. No one has any idea if you're using it because of the number of factors involved. It's a big yawn.
Excuse me, you wanted exciting matches and then want to buff chances of stale mates which is the only thing that this ammo changes even remotely? make up your mind.
Originally by: Obyrith
Fitting hardwirings should not be exempt from the ban: they're all balanced by the limit on the number of slots available per player: the idea being that a fitting plant is stopping you from increasing some other stat. There's easily enough flexibility in the Eve fitting system to say that no fitting strategy requires a +5% CPU/PG implant - it just allows more minmaxing no one gets to see. Mindlinks are fine though.
Tanks and ECM are fine, but DO NOT bring 'on the edge of impossible' fits, those would be boring. Do NOT bring high dps, fast ships as those would only make it BORING.
Originally by: Obyrith
A single implant or ammo type may make little difference by itself, but added together it's a whole bunch of stuff that costs a lot and adds nothing.
Why don't we just start spawning ships for the tourney? I mean... that's what you're saying here. I cant afford a team of Bhaals, please dont field them! IT'S UNFAIR! Oh and dont forget once you put hardwires in they are DESTROYED FOREVER AND EVER AND YOU CANT USE THEM GOD NOOOOO NEVER.
Originally by: Obyrith
None of these changes would result in significantly longer matches: there are, after all, tanking implant which affect match length just as much as the damage implants, and fitting implants let you fit more tank anyway. Anyway, matches that are effectively over within the first twenty seconds suck almost as much as the ones that resemble turtles humping each other.
I assure you, these changes would help with tanking more than anything, since there is no counter point to say that the changes would hurt dps less than tank, logic falls apart. It also gives ECM a buff which isnt too interesting to watch.
At the end of the day : teams should just put more effort in, CO2 and Hydra I know put in quite a bit of effort and made arrangements for cash and it showed (so close CO2 :/). Other teams blatantly didn't and expected to magic through with individual skill and luck of the draw.
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DHB WildCat
BURN EDEN Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.06.23 02:10:00 -
[44]
Edited by: DHB WildCat on 23/06/2010 02:13:07
Originally by: Seldarine The main problem we had on the finals was the 24 hour clone jump timer, and not being able to just unplug implants and plug in different sets to switch setups out. We were kinda forced into having to stick with that one setup in the final matches because of this.
I think either baning hardwirings, or limiting them in some way could lead to more diversity of setups in the final day and there being less of an isk barrier for some teams.
I think hardwirings are not an issue. We didnt have an isk issue. The only problem we had might have had would have been mid match communications, and failure to prepare correctly even when given a match on a platter. I think I have to agree with Shamis on this one.
Was fun.
WildCat
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.23 03:18:00 -
[45]
PL spent a lot of isk on this tourney, but most of it will come back when we sell all the ships/mods and spare implants back.
However, if I went with a cheap flagship, or no flagship (since we didn't use it), and I went with 3% hardwirings instead of 5% hardwirings, and settles for normal faction ammo instead of the 'best' faction ammo, we could have done the whole tourney for about 10 bil. This would have resulted in our ships doing about 5% less damage than they actually did, and maybe have about 2% less EHP, and 2% less speed. I'm 100% certain this would not have changed the outcome of any of our matches. We buy the best gear because we are 'all in' on the tourney, and in the remote chance that a fight really comes down to the last ship, we'll have that 2% edge to carry us through.
Considering the number of scrubs out there who have titans and motherships these days, I'm gonna go ahead and say that if your alliance can't put up 10-15 bil towards tourney performance, then you should probably just disband.
I'd also like to point out that the PL alliance wallet dropped below 200 billion for the first time in a very long time due to our tourney expenditures. I'm pretty sure that at least 25% of the alliances participating have some member in their alliance who is worth more than our entire alliance. It's not my fault the rest of you suck at making isk. We treat the tourney as an investment, and it paid off. I'm anticipating about 900 billion in profits, which will hopefully hold us over until the next tourney which you poor excuses for PvP'ers will have no doubt dummed down to a raw dps fest by banning everything that requires an IQ higher than 20 to use properly.
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MissBolyai
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.23 03:55:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Considering the number of scrubs out there who have titans and motherships these days
Sup Atlas.
I'd wager a few things had a bigger impact on the tourney than the hardwirings:
1. Shamis, Raivi and Creyn are smarter than you. 2. We practiced more. 3. We had better setups (see #1). 4. We studied your teams and practices so that we knew what you'd bring and what you thought it would work well against. 5. I didn't fly in the tourney (see #1). |
Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.23 04:03:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 23/06/2010 04:05:01 Also, I forgot to mention this...but if you are whining because you couldn't find/afford PG8's and KMB-75's, that is because we bought every single one of them in jita and rens for 3 weeks straight just to hear you all cry. |
Fintroll
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.23 04:06:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz you poor excuses for PvP'ers
****IN YEAH |
Lady0fRage
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Posted - 2010.06.23 04:17:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 23/06/2010 04:05:01 Also, I forgot to mention this...but if you are whining because you couldn't find/afford PG8's and KMB-75's, that is because we bought every single one of them in jita and rens for 3 weeks straight just to hear you all cry.
LOL
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Grath Telkin
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.23 05:20:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Also, I forgot to mention this...but if you are whining because you couldn't find/afford PG8's and KMB-75's, that is because we bought every single one of them in jita and rens for 3 weeks straight just to hear you all cry.
If you weren't a man, we'd make babies.
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MissBolyai
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.23 05:22:00 -
[51]
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1341684
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RaYaa
Gallente Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.23 05:22:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Obyrith
TL; DR - the tournament isn't just about you, PL. Give me my bread and circuses goddammit.
CCP already created a drake
your face, your ass -- what's the difference? |
Technix
Gallente DAB Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.06.23 06:25:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Technix on 23/06/2010 06:25:10
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Obyrith
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Posted - 2010.06.23 08:59:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Obyrith on 23/06/2010 09:06:16
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
However, if I went with a cheap flagship, or no flagship (since we didn't use it), and I went with 3% hardwirings instead of 5% hardwirings, and settled for normal faction ammo instead of the 'best' faction ammo, we could have done the whole tourney for about 20 bil. This would have resulted in our ships doing about 5% less damage than they actually did, and maybe have about 2% less EHP, and 2% less speed. I'm 100% certain this would not have changed the outcome of any of our matches. We buy the best gear because we are 'all in' on the tourney, and in the remote chance that a fight really comes down to the last ship, we'll have that 2% edge to carry us through.
That's a good argument for it being a great cost saver for PL to support disallowing hardwirings and deadspace ammo. You'd come out with 20 billion more profit! And you already said you regard it exclusively as an investment and that you'd have won anyway. There's no downside!
Quote: Considering the number of scrubs out there who have titans and motherships these days, I'm gonna go ahead and say that if your alliance can't put up 20 bil towards tourney performance, then you should probably just disband.
I've pretty much given up on anyone believing I'm not a forum alt and that it's all I care about, but billions of isk spent on **** no one can see doesn't make the tournament more enjoyable or frankly, increase the tactical options (and in fact disincentivises changing tactics on the last day).
To repeat the central point again: I can see a Bhaalgorn get blown up. The fittings are made public in advance so everyone knows what the flagships are worth. Shamis deciding to have his team rip out 8 billion of implants in a station or change players doesn't quite have the same dramatic impact. So why make it an issue?
Quote: I'd also like to point out that the PL alliance wallet dropped below 200 billion for the first time in a very long time due to our tourney expenditures. I'm pretty sure that at least 25% of the alliances participating have some member in their alliance who is worth more than our entire alliance.
You've won it three time in a row. That's a lot of money right there.
Quote: It's not my fault the rest of you suck at making isk. We treat the tourney as an investment, and it paid off. I'm anticipating about 900 billion in profits, which will hopefully hold us over until the next tourney which you poor excuses for PvP'ers will have no doubt dummed down to a raw dps fest by banning everything that requires an IQ higher than 20 to use properly.
Oh, I get it, you're parodying SirMolle again, aren't you! Oh, hahahaha! Good troll, sir!
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.06.23 09:08:00 -
[55]
I wouldn't mind not having hardwirings - The tournament already have enough gank and not being able to change implants between fights unless you unplug 1 billion isk (5 x 200m implants) just seems like you can't compete in the tourney without having a very wealthy alliance.
It's the invisible money factor - we dont need it in the tourney... Puts pressure on players and teams and nobody gets anything from it unless you spend more isk than the other team.
Lets go back to it being ships, fittings and skills... -
I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew... |
Shiwan Khan
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.23 21:13:00 -
[56]
people seem to forget what this tournament is about. it is about small gang pvp. hardwirings are a part of pvp. personally, i couldn't care less if you don't get to see billions of isk in the form of implants explode. this is about combat, not the audience. ____________________________________________
AEKDB |
Grath Telkin
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.23 21:43:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Pinky Denmark
Lets go back to it being ships, fittings and skills...
You do understand that the 5 slots in your head reserved for hardwirings, are indeed fittings for your ship right?
I mean, its your own skewed perspective that's not allowing you to see them for what they are.
Faction gear isn't allowed in the tournament, and so pirate implants (faction implants) are also not allowed, but the standard grade hardwirings available to ANY PILOT IN THE GAME, are allowed.
I can't really remember where ammo decided a match, so I'm not sure why its even an issue, but w/e.
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InnerDrive
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.06.23 22:24:00 -
[58]
Edited by: InnerDrive on 23/06/2010 22:27:38 I cant agree more about the hardwirings, its crazy how much the best ones cost. Sure we can afford but its not like all 64 teams can afford it , making it unfair.
Sure people are not forced to get them and they do make less of a difference than full pirate sets but they are still pretty damn good to have and so people will try to get them.
And this makes the budget required for playing the alliance tournament just tru the roof if you really want to get into it.
While at it i woud also ban the usage of any "superships" , as in prizes won in previous tournaments like frekis, i dont think that any single alliance shoud be abble to outclass another alliance simply by having won the tournament previously.
Everything shoud be on exactly equal footing except for skills and tactics.
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LoveKebab
Caldari LOST IDEA C0VEN
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Posted - 2010.06.23 22:35:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz you poor excuses for PvP'ers
It hurt so much :( xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial |
Thresh Avery
Best Path Inc. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.23 22:36:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Grath Telkin
Originally by: Pinky Denmark
Lets go back to it being ships, fittings and skills...
You do understand that the 5 slots in your head reserved for hardwirings, are indeed fittings for your ship right?
I mean, its your own skewed perspective that's not allowing you to see them for what they are.
Faction gear isn't allowed in the tournament, and so pirate implants (faction implants) are also not allowed, but the standard grade hardwirings available to ANY PILOT IN THE GAME, are allowed.
I can't really remember where ammo decided a match, so I'm not sure why its even an issue, but w/e.
Grath, all he is saying is that the hardwirings are an unnecessary cost and teams can do without them. They do make fittings and ship usage a bit more flexible, or rather more capable of doing something they were already good at anyway, but still the point stands that there's no need to require teams to spend so much isk on invisible benefits.
You can argue it to you're blue in the face, and i'm sure many people in this thread will, but it's a valid point. Personally i'm not too bothered either way about whether they allow them next year or not, but i think the tournament would benefit from disallowing them as it levels the playing field for the poorer pilots/alliances, which surely would make the matches closer and more interesting.
And before anyone uses the "we're in it to win, not to make the spectators happy" counter argument, understand that i fully agree with you. But there's got to be a compromise.
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