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Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
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Posted - 2010.06.26 18:17:00 -
[1]
NeuroGEN is proud to announce its third installment of the Inventors Summit, a project designed to bring awareness to the importance of scientific innovation and the spirit of human creativity. However, unlike our previous events this project will encourage our participants to design towards a specific goal and will be judged against their peers based on its performance in simulated challenges designed by the talented minds at NeuroGEN.
The invention that scores the highest at the end of our event will receive the grand prize and an esteemed trophy for their creator.
The Challenge
You, your corporation, or a collaboration of your peers are tasked with creating an artificial intelligence capable of analyzing and exploiting the weaknesses of a digital corporate network for sabotage, information extraction, and data alteration. The capabilities of your program will be tested through a series of five separate challenges of increasing difficulty, and will be scored based on the speed and rate of success.
NeuroGEN has designed a corporate imitation network as a testing ground for these programs, designed to emulate many systems commonly found amongst the corporations and governments of New Eden. However, the firewalls and protection software have been designed in-house, and are expected to exceed the security standards employed by major military agencies and financial institutions.
How To Participate
Interested parties are expected to submit their finished product no later than July 9th, and should include the name of the AI product, who will receive credit for their work, an avatar image of your AI if available, in addition to a 5 million ISK registration fee. These submissions should be made directly to the event organizer, myself (Nola Doyle) via FTL mail. ((rules found here))
Teams will be given a small period to fine tune their design after each of the challenges is revealed.
Scoring & Reward
Success of the primary objective in each challenge is worth one-hundred points. Penalties will reduce that score based on the time it took for your program to achieve its goal. The total number of points will be accumulated for each challenge and totalled at the end. The top three winners will receive the accumulated ISK pool from the registrations in the following amounts: 1st place (60%), 2nd place (30%), 3rd place (10%).
Purpose
While the primary motivation of this project is to encourage innovation amongst the capsuleer population, this is also an assessment of our own progress in locating the potential flaws in our defenses. The success of our participants in these events will dictate whether our teams need to re-evaluate their methods in designing artificial intelligence defense systems.
Contact Us
Questions or comments may be addressed on this discussion or privately through FTL mail. Updates, scores, and information will be relayed here during the course of the event.
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Eran Mintor
Minmatar
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2010.06.26 20:20:00 -
[2]
Anyone who assists in this "inventors summit" is supporting Sansha Kuvakei and will be held as a Sansha sympathizer and supporter.
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Voila Flame
Amarr
CryoCycle
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Posted - 2010.06.26 20:27:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Eran Mintor
Anyone who assists in this "inventors summit" is supporting Sansha Kuvakei and will be held as a Sansha sympathizer and supporter.
Do you actually think for yourself or do you only spout whatever happens to be popular on the Galnet at the time? Not everything is as black and white as you seem to think. I am in no way a Sansha Supporter or Sympathizer.
I will be participating in this summit I believe. The challenge is intriguing.
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Eran Mintor
Minmatar
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2010.06.26 20:34:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Voila Flame
Originally by: Eran Mintor
Anyone who assists in this "inventors summit" is supporting Sansha Kuvakei and will be held as a Sansha sympathizer and supporter.
Do you actually think for yourself or do you only spout whatever happens to be popular on the Galnet at the time? Not everything is as black and white as you seem to think. I am in no way a Sansha Supporter or Sympathizer.
I will be participating in this summit I believe. The challenge is intriguing.
NGN is assisting the Sanshas, you blind fool.
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Voila Flame
Amarr
CryoCycle
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Posted - 2010.06.26 21:24:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Eran Mintor
NGN is assisting the Sanshas, you blind fool.
I am well aware of NGN affiliations. That doesn't make me nor Ms. Doyle's every action in support of Sansha.
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Mister Screwball
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.06.26 21:32:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Eran Mintor
Originally by: Voila Flame
Originally by: Eran Mintor
Anyone who assists in this "inventors summit" is supporting Sansha Kuvakei and will be held as a Sansha sympathizer and supporter.
Do you actually think for yourself or do you only spout whatever happens to be popular on the Galnet at the time? Not everything is as black and white as you seem to think. I am in no way a Sansha Supporter or Sympathizer.
I will be participating in this summit I believe. The challenge is intriguing.
NGN is assisting the Sanshas, you blind fool.
And you are assiting the amarr in the reclaiming it doesnt mean that you are trying to enslave the Republic now does it
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Originally by: CCP Dropbear
rofl
edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
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Eran Mintor
Minmatar
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2010.06.26 23:32:00 -
[7]
Are you implying I'm a hypocrite? I can be on some issues, and while I accept this, I still stand by initial statement.
My presence in the militia is indirectly assisting with the enslavement of Minmatar, though my intent was only to undo the offensive gains I made while in the militia. I knew Minmatar would be harmed during my tour in the Amarr militia but this is little different from when Minmatar were throwing their lives down for me. I cannot say I am pleased with recent changes in Metropolis and will be withdrawing from the militia shortly.
Does this shed me of any guilt? No; many Minmatar have every right to be angry with me, and like-wise I am often upset with my own failings but I press on.
Anyways, this inventors summit is bad news if your hope is to see the Sansha threat eliminated; this hacking A.I. is a tool to be used against organizations fighting Kuvakei.
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FeralShadow
Black Storm Cartel
The Orca Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.27 03:59:00 -
[8]
So... Sansha has capital ships on standby, and Concord has the only means of preventing said capital ships from firing their weapons in empire space.
And now this individual is looking for an AI program that can circumvent digital security.
Sounds fishy.
_______________________________________________
"If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
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Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
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Posted - 2010.06.27 06:23:00 -
[9]
I would reccommend allowing your brain catch up with your mouth, because neither of you are making any sense. I've organized a competition asking for interested parties to design an AI hacking tool that is capable of exploiting our prototype software, not the inverse. Your irrational paranoia and fear-mongering propaganda simply reinforces the notion that this Coalition is desperate with misplaced aggression.
And yes, despite your efforts, many have already signed up to participate in this event, and I look forward to seeing their finished products in action.
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Myyona
Minmatar
Ataraxia Pharmacies
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Posted - 2010.06.27 10:33:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Myyona on 27/06/2010 10:33:56
While we would be more than qualified to participate in such a summit, it is against corporate policies to research or develop on topics with an obvious malicious or destructive usability. As such, we cannot bid in on this challenge.
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Myyona
CEO, Ataraxia Pharmacies
ATAP Humanitarian aid effort |
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Mister Screwball
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.06.27 10:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Eran Mintor
Are you implying I'm a hypocrite? I can be on some issues, and while I accept this, I still stand by initial statement.
You take my reply to seriously i am in no way calling you a hypocrite, you had your resons for joining the militia and im sure they are good ones but they are of no concern to me. I was simple trying to point out that just because someone is aligned to a faction it doesnt mean that everything that they do is geared into helping them hence I used you as an example. This Inventor Summit may be just what it says it is a place for people to have there skills challanged in a controlled way against other pilots.
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Originally by: CCP Dropbear
rofl
edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
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Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2010.06.28 08:40:00 -
[12]
There are indeed interesting inventions and less interesting ones. An interesting invention would be a weapon that forces people to undock.
A less interesting weapon is an AI that is infiltration capsuleer corporations.
For you don't need a machine for that, just a little bit smarts. So if you Sansha just stop putting all that crap into your head you would have enough smarts left to be able to do this task. A machine can't do this.
And this has different reasons. But while I don't want to go into details it's in the end an economic point of view. To be able to infiltrate a capsuleer organisation first of all needs a lot of social engineering. This means that you have to feel as your enemy does. But feeling is just the thing an AI can not.
Machines are built to do things better than human counterparts. Mostly because the things are boring or mindbuggingly stupid. And they repeat.
The net of human interaction has a high level of feedback, recursion, iterations and changing rules, language and context. This is the worst case scenario for an AI. While infiltration is a human job that is best done by humans, take a think tank for it.
And leave the hardware out.
And this, indeed, is not help the Sansha, it's just an intellectual way to tell them: fragg off! You're gonna ate it! Because they just have a flaw in their way of thinking. The flaw that makes them what they are - stupid drones.
The history of AI is a long one. But the so called "Turing Test" was never met. And never will be. Not as long as the evolution of machines are on a meta level. So human engineers search for something to make them evolve.
Drones are coming nearer to this, but you all know how stupid drones are. They might be able to build battleship huge vessels that are autonomous. But I would never call them smart enough for a decent conversation. Best you can expect is something like: "bzzzz targets bzzzz 00100101001 bzzzz division by zero *** system halted *** beginning dump of physical memory"
No there are some things that are bad about AI controlled beings.
You might find a lack of humanity worst of it.
You might find a lack of ethics worst of it.
You might find a lack of creative power worst of it.
I find worst of it that they are lousy lovers.
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FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Norrin Ellis
Heritage Foundation
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Posted - 2010.06.28 08:56:00 -
[13]
So, you're essentially asking people to pay you for the privilege of testing your latest security systems? The winners get to keep the other suckers' money, while you get to close any holes found in your system, which presumably will benefit Sansha Kuvakei in some way, directly or indirectly.
It seems to me that most inventors and scientists would prefer to pursue their own paths of inquiry rather than help you perfect tools to be used against them.
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Sylorin
Caldari
MMZ Laboratories LLC
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Posted - 2010.06.28 11:38:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Sylorin on 28/06/2010 11:40:00
I'm not going to enter and I don't think any of my corp-mates are going to enter. We have too much on our plate at the moment.
That being said, I considered what my entry would be this morning while I was having breakfast. I would enter...myself. I am a clone, an "artificial" intelligence (in that I was created in vivo as opposed to in vitro), was modified genetically and cybernetically and then had my original intelligence added at a later time. I personally have the skills to do what you describe and I feel with total confidence that I could pass whatever test you could dream up.
If no one else enters, can I claim a percentage of the prize money?
And Ms. Wildfire, for your request I believe that there are a few devices available to "force" a pilot to undock. The first ones that come to mind are fire, radiation and decompression alarms. All you have to do is bypass station security and hack the station's computer. If that doesn't get your pilot out of his station threaten something he loves. Something he can't live without...like his wallet.
I'll leave the particulars as a problem for the class.
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Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
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Posted - 2010.06.28 14:29:00 -
[15]
Before I reply, we currently have three confirmed entries for this project. There's still plenty of time (until July 9th) to submit your project. Please be sure to include the 1) name of your project, 2) who deserves credit (company, individual, or team), 3) 5mil registration fee, ((and 4) AI stats)).
*blinks*
Alicia, I'm not Sansha Kuvakei. I don't put anything into heads except ideas and a desire for knowledge. And yes, Artificial Intelligence has the capacity to feel, because feeling isn't some ambiguous idea, but the byproduct of neurochemical responses in the brain. AI can be adapted to interpret human behavior, and are common sight as bedside assistants in hospitals. No matter how smart or quick witted you think you are, even in a virtual network environment, I can assure you a well-made AI is fully capable of out-performing a capsuleer many times over.
Mr. Ellis, this project is intended as an academic function designed to inspire software designers in a friendly competition against our prototype networks with a generous prize. These defense networks are not currently in use in our actual security system, and they are not offensive tools. I'm not sure how many times I can reiterate my point before I start designing my own AI to repeat this ad nauseum to every Coalition hack looking to score cheap political points.
And Sylorin, while I am relieved you are gracious enough to give our other pilots a chance to win by not entering yourself, I am very interested to hear your origins and capabilities. Who designed you and what is your purpose? Our teams at NeuroGEN would be most interested in exploring your design.
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Norrin Ellis
Heritage Foundation
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Posted - 2010.06.28 14:41:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Norrin Ellis on 28/06/2010 14:42:40
Originally by: Nola Doyle
. . . not currently in use . . .
Why would anyone expect them to be currently in use when the contestants haven't helped you make it even more bulletproof than you claim it already is?
Originally by: Nola Doyle
. . . and they are not offensive tools.
They don't need to be. If the best and brightest scientists who oppose the Nation help you improve security for the Nation, that reduces the chance that those same scientists might later be able to hack Nation systems using the methods they're about to freely hand you, thus giving their adversary a distinct advantage and improving your boss's chance of victory in the ongoing campaign.
Originally by: Nola Doyle
. . . to every Coalition hack looking to score cheap political points.
You make a blatantly transparent attempt to get free help from people who should be shooting you, and you call me the hack for simply pointing it out? Delightful.
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Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
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Posted - 2010.06.28 15:04:00 -
[17]
Fortunately for you, Mr. Ellis, I am not the Nation, nor does the universe revolve around the Coalition's singular ambition. Believe it or not, there are thousands of capsuleers who could care less about your grievances. I am fortunate to count myself amongst them.
I look forward to seeing what our participants can design.
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Norrin Ellis
Heritage Foundation
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Posted - 2010.06.28 15:08:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Nola Doyle
I look forward to seeing what our participants can design.
If this were true, you wouldn't be assigning them the singular task of correcting your own homework.
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Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2010.06.28 15:13:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Nola Doyle
Alicia, I'm not Sansha Kuvakei. I don't put anything into heads except ideas and a desire for knowledge. And yes, Artificial Intelligence has the capacity to feel, because feeling isn't some ambiguous idea, but the byproduct of neurochemical responses in the brain. AI can be adapted to interpret human behavior, and are common sight as bedside assistants in hospitals. No matter how smart or quick witted you think you are, even in a virtual network environment, I can assure you a well-made AI is fully capable of out-performing a capsuleer many times over.
Dear Nola,
I have no doubt that AI can solve simple repeating tasks that even have a capability of a simulation of learning. At the Republic University School I was drilled through this while I was on Capsuleer trainee before I volunteered for the Republic Military School because of the new about the onmarching reclaiming of our homeworlds at Arzad and other.
I'm of Sebiestor origin and grew up with explorers and scientists, still I'm a bit out of tune for my family that has very few warriors to present. So the main problem with AI is that you can either try to construct a simple machine with limited capabilities or you can drive your project through the wall of informational event horizon, the informational singularity that is know the point where the computing power of your wetwork mainframe is higher than the brain computing capacity of the population of a whole planet.
Still with this power you have just one problem: ambition. You just create a cybernetical slave that has no future, no life, no body, no feelings, just simulations of that. And to reduce the perception of feelings to nothing more than the work of chemical neutrotransmitters is oblivious to the fact that the sum of the parts of a feeling creature is more than that.
Mind is not just software. Your mind creates itself through a vision, fate and many more things that you can't simulate, that have to be proven right again and again by a reality check.
The brain in a bottle is an old dream of cybernetics, but it's just a slave. Even if you reach this it is just a slave. And if you actually make it free enough so it can get out of your hands you can't make it work for you anymore, it will make you work for it.
This is no utopia, this is a dystopia. Without a body there is no way for real evolution for the thing, no way for reproduction, for genetically mixing, for diversification, just that thing will never have a life. This means it will have no ambition, which is where I started.
To break security systems is a kind of art. It is in no way a repeatable thing, it is not to have with drill, it can not be forced, it is an expression of freedom, of free will of everything that has the cybernetic not and possibly never will. And I doubt that there is even a need to have a thing like that.
While wetware mainframes are great machines to control a space station or mining structure in the orbit of a moon, it's just lousy in having orignal ideas. The best it can do is try to think everything through, go into it with brute force, even to use DNA recombination algorithms to crack certain codes. All fine and well. But this is where it ends.
You can construct a machine that is able to very efficiently break a current design of security, but you can't build one that can break a future one. Or protect.
See, I was on University in a class of cybernetics where we were training cybernetic attacks on computer systems. I was in the attacking team, the other in the defending. While we first attacked our team got crushed, I admit that most of the plan was my own. But we got a second chance and then the whole security system of the defenders was moot. We not only crushed them, the ongoing course was trying to set up an AI system, more precise an expert system to defend computer systems from intrusion.
...
--
FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2010.06.28 15:21:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 28/06/2010 15:21:32
---continue---
My team got the task to write attack programs and concepts to underrun the security. And we had some artists in our team. And what we were doing together behind closed doors was just dangerous enough that it never left that room. The project was silently stuck into a vault and never came to light again I hope.
Security decays fast than anything. Security is an illusion. There is no thing such as security.
Every schedule that tries to provide security will be broken. Theoretically you can make something safe but practically not. Because from class to instance there are always flaws inside the security. Flaws that you can find.
There has not been anything that has not been broken. Not as security, not as cypher, not as a game. It is the Goedel concept that no formal system can be perfect. It's just impossible.
But without ambition, without art, without real life, real evolution behind it your computer system will be stuck earlier or later on a brute force wall which it can not break. Even with the computing power of a planet it is impossible. But the free mind can find shortcuts - wormholes of thinking - that can fold the normal room and distort it in a way that is not calculable.
Nature is no calculation. It is just not.
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FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
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Posted - 2010.06.28 15:43:00 -
[21]
Alicia, software is a tool designed to perform a specific function. The implementation of artificial intelligence in such a program is designed to emulate human ingenuity, creativity, and the memory capacity to adapt to a rapidly changing environment. A strong defense network with heavy encryption algorithms requires the interpretation and exploitation of vast amounts of data in under the time it takes for the human mind to even acquire such information, let alone process and exploit this.
This endeavor is not for the design of virtual pleasure programs. The necessity for feeling and matter is irrelevent and counterproductive to accomplishment in this project.
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Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2010.06.28 16:01:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Nola Doyle
This endeavor is not for the design of virtual pleasure programs. The necessity for feeling and matter is irrelevent and counterproductive to accomplishment in this project.
You really think that science has nothing to do with passion? Why are we Sebiestor the most passionate Matari clan of all the scientists and engineers? It is exactly what you say: your whole concept puts it's power in brute force, you are thinking just because you can calculate faster your system is safer?
Not at all. It is not this. It is ingenuity, not combinations. You can't make a good book by randomly throwing letters together like a room of apes hammering on typewriters. You'll never get a real story from that. Not to speak of a good one.
Originally by: From your original post analysed as input, random AI textprocessing, program "APE" ordinal number 2
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FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
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Posted - 2010.06.28 16:18:00 -
[23]
I never suggested anything of the sort. Passion for one's work is self-evident in the content of its creation. This is the goal of this project at its very root on a philisophical level. However, you would have noticed I already addressed your points above. The purpose of an artificial intelligence is to emulate core values of what makes humanity unique and invaluable, coupled with its ability to process information at a vastly superior rate. In this instance, creativity is an invaluable trait for an AI hacking tool to possess.
I hope this clarifies my point.
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Ashley Ryltan
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Posted - 2010.06.28 20:10:00 -
[24]
Amusing game.
I look forward to hearing the results.
*The transmission breaks off into giggles, then cuts.*
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Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
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Posted - 2010.06.28 21:55:00 -
[25]
Eh. Why the hell not?
Beating throwing away thousands of lives to see who has the bigger battleship.
--
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Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2010.06.29 12:41:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 29/06/2010 12:47:31
Dear Nola,
the problem with a hacking AI is this: computerprograms are written to process data. Hacking in fact is mainly the task to make data appear where it was not suspected to be. So you can not prepare a system for the unpreparable.
If a hacker has found such a loophole in a system, programs and AI can be used to exploit them. But the real thing is that the hacking process is highly creative and visionary like the job of a cryptologist, which is closely related to this.
To break a cypher is one thing if you know how. But to find a hole in it is the problem. To find the anchor point for the lever to turn the world upside down. The je ne sais quas, the golden pot under the rainbow, the miracle.
This is the other thing. And I'm talking about just this one, because it is this you are looking for. But I have the strong feeling that you are hunting the holy grale here, the thing that is right under your nose and not at the end of the world.
You find the thing you are looking for right beside you, in the potential of your neighbor, of your friend, of the people around you. Because to find the miricle, you can not remain to be an observer like a computing machine is. You have to be part of it. Part of life. Part of evolution. Part of the oncoming future. Not just a tool. Not just a slave, a robot.
I do not believe in the existance of something like the soul, which is always said to exist by religious people. But if there could be something like this then it is the fact that you are part of it. Part of the whole world. And you can feel it.
So long words, short end. I think it is impossible what you try to achieve. Not per se, because mankind can do what you try to build, yes. But in the direction you are looking for it you won't find it.
It reminds me a bit of a drunken crewmember I met in the hallway on the lower quarterdecks of my Stabber. He was crawling around on the floor right under the lamp. "What are you doing?" I asked. "I l-lost my keycard..." I looked around. "You lost it here?" "No, I lost it over there where the lights are broken." I was irritated. "But why, then are you looking for it here?" "B-because over there is no light, I would have no chance to find it."
Why are you looking for the key, I ask you, Nola, where you won't have a chance to find it? Yes. You have the blinking computer lights here. But the thing you are searching is not inside those wetware mainframes. It is inside yourself.
--
FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Sylorin
Caldari
MMZ Laboratories LLC
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Posted - 2010.06.29 15:24:00 -
[27]
Ms Doyle,
IÆm glad to help and good luck to your contestants.
My origins involve a pairing of DNA from two Caldari individuals known as ôMr. Sylorin Sr (General) and Mrs. Sylorin (PhD), known by their call-signs ôDadö and ôMomö. While in vivo is the more fun method, they chose an in vitro pairing in my case to insure the reinforcement of certain desired alleles.
My cybernetics and capabilities are not nor will become a matter of public record however I will admit to gaining my first PhD from the School for Applied Knowledge (LetÆs Go SAK! Huzzah Todaki Terrors! Best team in the league! Score us another Philby!).
IÆm sorry if I lead you to believe I was some kind of sentient machine. I am quite human, though an infomorph. IÆm sure that I and many others like me are capable of doing what youÆre trying to create ôartificially.ö
If my schedule clears up enough, IÆll save you the trouble and transfer the ISK myself. Fair enough?
Dr. Jhary Sylorin
MMZ Labs
*The opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the opinions of MMZ Labs LLC |
Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
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Posted - 2010.06.29 16:11:00 -
[28]
Alicia, while I applaud your passion, you and I appear to be at an impasse because I simply do not agree with your assertions. I've been invested in artificial intelligence since I was a child, and I know from personal experience that the only limitation placed on these constructs are of their creators. When designed properly, even the simplest of AI's can out perform capsule pilots in a) sensory analysis b) information processing c) output, characteristically in a much shorter period of time.
Whether you choose to accept this is up to you, of course.
And thank you for clarifying Sylorin. *smiles* I look forward to your contribution.
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Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:47:00 -
[29]
A note for pilots interested in participating for this event: there are currently seven days left to submit your project for the Summit, so don't be late! The more participants means a greater final payout to the winners, and that could be you.
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.07.05 17:20:00 -
[30]
Very interesting challenge.
I have entered my newly developed AI Gastros into this summit and am expecting it to be able to at least return back the investment I made into developing it. I can always do with a bit more funding.
I don't quite understand the concerns about participating in this event. It just a presentation of the capabilities of a final product. The core design patterns and algorithms are all locked safely away out of reach of Mr. Kuvakei and everybody else, including that annoying Gallente "doctor" living downstairs.
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Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Online Lorebook
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