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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 04:15:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Lillith Blackheart Mr. Lehane....
Condescending, meaningless drivel
You're almost as good at evading the actual question I asked as Star Fraction is. Let me spell it out for you in terms your brain might understand:
Your Moral Failings Are Not In Any Way Diminished By Our Moral Failings Because Even In The Absence Of Our Moral Failings Your Moral Failings Would Still Be Moral Failings How Do You Justify Them?
Would you like me to colour-code the nouns and verbs for you? -----
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Lillith Blackheart
NeuroGEN
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Posted - 2010.07.04 06:32:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Lillith Blackheart on 04/07/2010 06:34:15 Apparently speaking to you as though you were a child was appropriate, it quite clearly fits your mental state.
Quite simply, I do not have to justify them, as I am hardly here to claim moral superiority, that seems to be your position. If you have not been able to tell, I have not been speaking in moral terms, and if anything I claim equivocation, as has Dr. Doyle.
You seem to not understand your own argument. What you are, in fact doing, is making it evident you have none. Let me explain what you've said throughout this entire discussion.
You started off claiming yourself morally superior. When it was retorted that you are not in fact morally superior, you responded by stating that in the absence of your moral failings ours would still exist. In which case, upon your argument being countered, you have proceeded to erase your argument, which leaves you with little to nothing to base your statements on.
This would be the Blindness to which I refer. Despite the fact that you have no argument save for "because I said what you're doing is wrong!" you still continue to flail onward that our ways are wrong, not because we do not achieve anything positive, but because you said so. Specifically because of one specific thing that, quite frankly, your empires have done far worse over the years they have existed, from your own viewpoint. This, of course, implies that it is monstrous and horrific to begin with. A point of contention, I might add.
You then will repeat what you last said, because it is all you can continue to flounder with in hopes that you will score some point or another in some silly little contest you consider yourself to be in, and certainly with some you shall, however those poor little fools will continue to follow just as blindly as you.
Is that possibly clear enough for you, yet, little man?
At the very least, though she disagrees with our methods and perhaps our goals -- though they are not much different -- Ms. Constantine is quite a few rungs up on you, as she is capable of forming a reasoned, cogent argument, and comes to her decisions based on reason, and not simply because someone told her something is "wrong", but without giving her any reason to understand why.
Go back into your little hole, Mr. LeHane. You are not equipped to be here.
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Sierra'Kor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 09:32:00 -
[123]
This little man does not deserve your time Lillith. Allow him to flail about, lashing out those who would be his comrades (that he has now surely run off *chuckles*). He, and the people that lower themselves to his level, embodies one of the many aspects that is the failing of the empires.
People with the slightest amount of intelligence and wisdom will see him for what he is. See how he exemplifies the coalition and those who resist us and perhaps climb over the garbage that they spew to see our Truth.
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 15:10:00 -
[124]
Yet again, you're throwing insults and claiming victory in an argument without actually providing any evidence to back up your statements.
Originally by: Lillith Blackheart You started off claiming yourself morally superior. When it was retorted that you are not in fact morally superior, you responded by stating that in the absence of your moral failings ours would still exist. In which case, upon your argument being countered, you have proceeded to erase your argument, which leaves you with little to nothing to base your statements on.
No, you haven't proved that we are not, in fact, morally superior - my statement that your obvious and egregious moral failings would still be moral failings in the absence of our own was simply an attempt to highlight the fact that you are evading addressing or even recognising them by accusing the Empires of being just as bad.
Originally by: Lillith Blackheart Despite the fact that you have no argument save for "because I said what you're doing is wrong!" you still continue to flail onward that our ways are wrong, not because we do not achieve anything positive, but because you said so.
It's not just because I say it's wrong. As much as I can avoid argumentum ad populum, this was an argument from common morality. You caused a man to have an emotional breakdown. You didn't ask his family what they thought about this before you did it. You didn't ask him for permission to butcher his family. If you can't work out why it's wrong, it obviously indicates additional moral failing on your part. There are some statements that I feel I shouldn't have to justify because everyone should already know the answer, but what you did was a violation of the personal rights and sanctity of life of three seperate individuals.
Originally by: Lillith Blackheart your empires have done far worse over the years they have existed, from your own viewpoint.
Yet again you have not provided any actual examples or evidence of what you're accusing us of.
Originally by: Lillith Blackheart This, of course, implies that it is monstrous and horrific to begin with. A point of contention, I might add.
No it isn't, not with any civilized person, not with any agreed-upon definition of morality, not with any person generally considered to be sane. I could ask you what you'd think of me if I butchered your family for the sole purpose of causing you emotional distress - this of course relies upon you having actual emotional involvement with your family. Emotional involvement is something which I certainly can't infer from your previous posts. The Nation did not give the people any choice in the matter of what it did to them. And I don't need anyone else but you to tell me that's wrong - that in itself is wrong by your own measure, because you're depriving them of the choice of future - exactly what you accuse the Empires of doing to you.
Originally by: Lillith Blackheart though she disagrees with our methods and perhaps our goals -- though they are not much different -- Ms. Constantine is quite a few rungs up on you, as she is capable of forming a reasoned, cogent argument, and comes to her decisions based on reason, and not simply because someone told her something is "wrong", but without giving her any reason to understand why.
Ah, the very ineffective "although they are my enemy, they're better than you", but no, she's not. I've made a very good case for why that is above, and I don't feel like repeating it down here.
Originally by: Lillith Blackheart Go back into your little hole, Mr. LeHane. You are not equipped to be here.
More invective that adds nothing to your argument and takes nothing away from mine. -----
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.04 15:52:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane You're almost as good at evading the actual question I asked as Star Fraction is.
Did you actually ask any questions amongst your childish ranting and desperate attention-seeking display earlier?
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 16:02:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 04/07/2010 16:02:16
Originally by: Jade Constantine Did you actually ask any questions
Yes. -----
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.04 16:10:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 04/07/2010 16:12:06
Originally by: Andreus LeHane
Originally by: Jade Constantine Did you actually ask any questions amongst your childish ranting and desperate attention-seeking display earlier?
Yes.
links?
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 16:41:00 -
[128]
After the deplorably disrespectful manner in which you've treated me, I'm not going to indulge you. We're in the same thread. Every decent GalNet browser has a page search function - stick "?" in it and hit "Go". There are of course many questions that are not directly asked, but merely heavily implied, but given your status as a supposed master debater, I'm sure you'll be able to work out what they are. -----
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.04 16:56:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane despite their rude and largely baseless nature.
Thats a "no" then. Okay if it was just senseless ranting we'll leave it at that.
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 16:59:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 04/07/2010 16:59:57
Originally by: Jade Constantine Thats a "no" then. Okay if it was just senseless ranting we'll leave it at that.
See, you refuse to engage in this discussion like a reasonable adult - you ignore assertions that are awkward for you to address and you consider anything that disagrees with you "senseless ranting". You've made assertions that I've addressed. I've made assertions and asked questions which you have not addressed, and made my unwillingness to submit to unreasonable demands your excuse. I posit, based on available evidence - namely from your continued unwillingness to do so - that you are incapable of addressing them. -----
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.04 17:03:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane you consider anything that disagrees with you "senseless ranting".
No, I consider senseless ranting to be senseless ranting. The only thing you have been doing since your first post in this thread.
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 17:16:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 04/07/2010 17:27:01
Originally by: Jade Constantine No, I consider senseless ranting to be senseless ranting. The only thing you have been doing since your first post in this thread.
You haven't provided any basis for decrying what I've written as senseless ranting except "because I say it is". I've asked you to defend certain aspects of past and current actions, and then, when questioning them caused you to devolve into a string of infantile insults and perjoratives, questioned your defamatory debating tactics. You've refused to address any of it, because, as I have previously posited, I believe you are incapable of doing so, and are simply hiding from the task behind a thin veneer of sophistication and arrogance.
Why are you unwilling to address the moral dissonance of uniting with someone you dislike or disagree with against a greater threat yet condemning others for doing the same?
Why do all your answers revolve around defamation and ad hominem attacks rather than around addressing the points raised?
Why do you erroneously believe that you have the luxury of choosing your critics?
Why are you unwilling to address others with civility when you often complain about their own inability to do the same?
Why are you making critical value judgements about actions that clearly align with your own modus operandi?
Why, if you consider me among the least of your critics, and my arguments so easy to provide evidence against, do you categorically and repeatedly refuse to defend your views with anything other than irrelevant invective and ad hominem? Does it stem merely from a childish unwillingness to engage people who dare to disagree with you, or does the unwillingness stem from a lack of viable defences?
Why should a viewpoint whose proponents refuse to defend it be awarded any validity or respect?
Given that you believe yourself the arbiter of the validity or "worthiness" of an act or belief, and seem all too willing to dismiss the accomplishments and beliefs of others if you don't like them, what legitimate complaint would you raise if people began to do the same to you?
When are you going to start addressing people who disagree with you on the level of an equal, as I am able to do (such as with the ILF, I-RED, ForgeTech, Veto, various FDU corporations and more moderate members of the Amarr Empire but am unwilling to do so with you due to your utter lack of respect, dignity or honour) instead of treating them as inferiors?
And a question I believe provides an entirely appropriate summation of all of the above:
What the hell is your problem? -----
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.04 17:33:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 04/07/2010 17:33:59
Originally by: Andreus LeHane
Why are you unwilling to address the moral dissonance of uniting with someone you dislike against a greater threat yet condemning others for doing the same?
I'm entirely happy to discuss aspects of this taken clause by clause. If you control your temper and ask questions without crazy ranting you'll find it much easier to communicate.
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Why do all your answers revolve around defamation and ad hominem attacks rather than around addressing the points raised?
They don't.
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Why do you erroneously believe that you have the luxury of choosing your critics?
I don't erroneously believe that.
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Why are you unwilling to address others with civility when you often complain about their own inability to do the same?
I am not unwilling to address those with civility.
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Why are you making critical value judgements about actions that clearly align with your own modus operandi?
They don't.
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Why, if you consider me among the least of your critics, and my arguments so easy to provide evidence against, do you categorically and repeatedly refuse to defend your views with anything other than irrelevant invective and ad hominem?
Argumentum ad hominem is not always fallacious, for in some instances questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Does it stem merely from a childish unwillingness to engage people who dare to disagree with you, or does the unwillingness stem from a lack of viable defences?
Neither.
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Why should a viewpoint whose proponents refuse to defend it be awarded any validity or respect?
That is not the case here.
Originally by: Andreus LeHane When are you going to start addressing people who disagree with you on the level of an equal, as I am able to do
I don't believe you are.
Originally by: Andreus LeHane ... (such as with the ILF, I-RED, ForgeTech, Veto, various FDU corporations and more moderate members of the Amarr Empire but am unwilling to do so with you due to your utter lack of respect, dignity or honour) instead of treating them as inferiors?
Your own inability to communicate with civility is your problem.
Originally by: Andreus LeHane And a question I believe provides an entirely appropriate summation of all of the above: What the hell is your problem?
In short. Liars.
Join the Revolution!
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 17:53:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 04/07/2010 17:55:24
Originally by: Jade Constantine I'm entirely happy to discuss aspects of this taken clause by clause. If you control your temper and ask questions without crazy ranting you'll find it much easier to communicate.
Not only was this not an answer to the question to which you put it under, it's false, an ad hominem and a red herring. This sets the tone for the rest of your response.
Originally by: Jade Constantine They don't.
I don't erroneously believe that.
I am not unwilling to address those with civility.
They don't.
Neither.
That is not the case here.
I don't believe you are.
These are not answers. These are simply denials, which don't actually address the questions to which they were posed. This is further evidence toward my allegation that you are not only unwilling but in fact incapable of afford ingpeople who disagree with you any measure of civility or respect.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Argumentum ad hominem is not always fallacious
Conversely, argument ad hominem is always falacious if the conduct of an argument's proponent is not relevant to the topic, and especially if the allegations based on the conduct of the proponent are themselves falacious. The allegations you have made against me are not true, as I have demonstrated (which is more than I can say for your denials), and even if they were, my conduct here is not particularly relevant because it's your conduct that we're discussing - particularly my ability (or entirely falaciously alleged lack thereof) to blow things up.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Andreus LeHane ... (such as with the ILF, I-RED, ForgeTech, Veto, various FDU corporations and more moderate members of the Amarr Empire but am unwilling to do so with you due to your utter lack of respect, dignity or honour) instead of treating them as inferiors?
Your own inability to communicate with civility is your problem.
This is truly laughable - having just demonstrated that there is no inability present, by listing people who hold differing viewpoints to me with whom I am able to engage in reasonable, civil discourse with, you make an accusation that, ironically, showcases your own inability to communicate resonably. This inability is a large part of my choice to treat you with the respect your conduct indicates - precious little. Your progressive degeneration in conduct clearly indicates to me that the level of respect I'm currently affording you is in and of itself extremely generous.
Originally by: Jade Constantine In short. Liars.
Another incivil, defamatory allegation you have not provided any proof for. -----
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.04 17:56:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane
These are not answers. These are simply denials,
Originally by: Andreus LeHane
The allegations you have made against me are not true
And you wonder why nobody bothers discussing anything with you.
Join the Revolution!
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 18:06:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Andreus LeHane
These are not answers. These are simply denials,
Originally by: Andreus LeHane
The allegations you have made against me are not true
And you wonder why nobody bothers discussing anything with you.
I have provided evidence against the allegations you have made against me, and you have not provided evidence to support them. I can even point you to specific occurences of this throughout this thread, since you seem to have a poor memory for its content. My allegations have been addressed with scorn and bile but very little actual in the way of contradicting evidence.
I even gave an example in the specific post.
Here's another allegation - you ignore everything in a post except what's convenient to reply to.
Substantiating Evidence: You ignored, and did not reply to, everything except two specific points in my post which I have demonstrated are not even mutually contradictory. -----
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.04 18:11:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Here's another allegation - you ignore everything in a post except what's convenient to reply to.
For convenient read neccessary. It is not neccessary to respond to every last piece of ranting from a worthless troll. You have very little credibility, influence or diplomatic weight. Why should anyone really care about your insane ramblings?
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 18:24:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 04/07/2010 18:26:38
Originally by: Jade Constantine For convenient read neccessary. It is not neccessary to respond to every last piece of ranting from a worthless troll. You have very little credibility, influence or diplomatic weight. Why should anyone really care about your insane ramblings?
Yet again, you've provided little weight to your allegations regarding my status as a "worthless troll with little credibility, influence or diplomatic weight" other than your own say-so. Believe me, Jade, influence and diplomatic weight are not, as you may believe, about what you portray publicly. This is a strategy known as "tipping your hand" and it's largely inadvisable.
But without giving too much away, here's some food for thought:
Back in YC 111, when death threats were being made against members of my corporation's planetside families and false allegations regarding our behaviour were flagged with ISD, Duty., a mercenary corporation who has never worked a single day in their operational lifespan without someone funding it, immediately declared war against the alliance responsible for these vile acts pro bono without even having to be asked. Veto, of all people, provided their extensive resources to defend us from the falacious allegations... merely because we asked.
Think about that. -----
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.04 18:27:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Veto, of all people, provided their extensive resources to defend us from the falacious allegations... merely because we asked.Think about that.
Bring them.
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 18:31:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Bring them.
I'm sorry? -----
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.04 18:37:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Veto, of all people, provided their extensive resources to defend us from the falacious allegations... merely because we asked.Think about that.
Quote: I'm sorry?
I had the distinct impression you were trying to threaten us with Veto. If thats so I repeat:
"bring them".
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 18:45:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 04/07/2010 18:46:10 Ah, this is a fine example of your delusional paranoia speaking, where you see any ambiguous comment as a potential threat.
As I've said before, you don't pose any threat to us, Jade. We don't have any reason to fight with you. It would place us under 80-to-1 odds, and it wouldn't prove anything that we couldn't adequately prove somewhere else, with a more respectful, competent enemy who talks less. -----
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Azure Skyclad
Amarr Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.07.04 18:56:00 -
[143]
Had the whiff of a threat to me there Andreus.
Grow a pair, borrow Verone's or shut up.
http://ultravixen.co.uk/ |
Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 19:04:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Azure Skyclad Had the whiff of a threat to me there Andreus.
Grow a pair, borrow Verone's or shut up.
And do what? Prove that my ideological viewpoints can only be backed up by violence? Waste the lives of our crew on fighting someone who doesn't even operate in the same half of known space as we do? Listen to a week of Jade's bleating about the evils of the Federation while she camps us in Intaki VI - Moon 5 - Pend Insurance Investment Bank, pretending that what she's doing is indicated by some vast moral imperative? No thanks, there's Caldari invading my homeland at the moment.
Oh, and I'd certainly, ahem, borrow Verone's pair - if you know what I mean - but unfortunately the man's engaged at the moment, and his woman would slap me silly. But a man can dream, right? -----
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.04 19:07:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane where you see any ambiguous comment as a potential threat.
Obviously you made a mistake in name-dropping Veto then.
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.07.04 19:09:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Azure Skyclad Grow a pair, borrow Verone's or shut up.
Trust me, he couldn't carry the weight of them. Being this tall has its advantages.
As for the rest of this charade... Star Fraction will continue to talk the talk, and those who oppose them will continue to give them hell.
Such is life, the beat goes on.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 19:16:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 04/07/2010 19:16:43
Originally by: Jade Constantine Obviously you made a mistake in name-dropping Veto then.
Obviously nothing. Verone's a friend of mine. We owe each other some favours. It was relevant to your (false) allegation regarding my diplomatic pull - in fact, it's all common knowledge if you do your research. Those are just favours I've used up, and publicly, so I don't have any compunctions about revealing them. I may have (or may not have - the imperative here is, you quite rightly have no idea!) a lot more left in my hand.
My point was - and one that you should seriously consider - is that it's very silly to make assumptions based on things you can't possibly know, and it does no favours for your credibility.
Originally by: Verone Star Fraction will continue to talk the talk, and those who oppose them will continue to give them hell.
Thanks dear -----
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.04 19:16:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Verone As for the rest of this charade... Star Fraction will continue to walk the walk, and those who oppose them will continue to give them hell rant toothlessly on the forums.
Fixed it for you.
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.07.04 19:18:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Verone As for the rest of this charade... Star Fraction will continue to walk the walk, and those who oppose them will continue to give them hell rant toothlessly on the forums.
Fixed it for you.
Same thing, really.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.04 19:21:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Fixed it for you.
And you're calling me a troll? -----
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