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Nimsir
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Posted - 2010.07.01 17:21:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Nimsir on 01/07/2010 17:21:49
Originally by: Ace2001
You're forgetting one thing though; while the isk per minute might be about the same, he's already got the LP for that mission and has moved on to another, so depending on how much lp/isk ratio he gets, that'd bump his earnings up a bit more.
he already stated that he was getting around 1k per LP
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McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers
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Posted - 2010.07.01 17:24:00 -
[62]
Well yeah, your calculation shows that isk/h accumulates with time when being 3 min faster but it only makes a big difference if one runs missions for couple hours straight. I went with my missioning behaviour as I can't run more than a couple of missions in a row or I have to kill myself. Then it takes quite some time to make a meaningful difference. In reality there is even less difference because missions are different, dont forget that you often have to fly some distance to the gate (The Score, WC) and the Tengu would be faster there. Also, sometimes you have to make several jumps to the destination system.
I can't say anything about the Golem vs CNR comparison but I know that torps are useful in PVP where cruises aren't. Its up to the player to decide whether he will invest that training time in cruises. Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 17:31:00 -
[63]
Originally by: McRoll Well yeah, your calculation shows that isk/h accumulates with time when being 3 min faster but it only makes a big difference if one runs missions for couple hours straight. I went with my missioning behaviour as I can't run more than a couple of missions in a row or I have to kill myself. Then it takes quite some time to make a meaningful difference.
Well, first... I completely sympathize. However, you have to consider that this difference exists regardless of if you're running 2 or 10 missions in a row... the only difference is in startup costs (warmup time, etc).
Quote: In reality there is even less difference because missions are different, dont forget that you often have to fly some distance to the gate (The Score, WC) and the Tengu would be faster there.
While I don't deny that those missions exist, it has to be considered that missions which make you fly any distance at all are exceedingly more rare than missions which plop your fat battleship's ass right on top of the next warp gate. There's a reason I can get by so well with a torp golem without an AB. :)
Quote: Also, sometimes you have to make several jumps to the destination system.
And sometimes you have to fly across the WHOLE ****ING GALAXY if you run missions for low sec. Also note that I didn't discount the travel time to the mission - and I wouldn't. I'm far more interested in ISK/hr as a real figure than a theoretical figure.
Quote: I can't say anything about the Golem vs CNR comparison but I know that torps are useful in PVP where cruises aren't. Its up to the player to decide whether he will invest that training time in cruises.
Ultimately the question of "what makes me the most ISK" has ****all to do with whether the skill is useful in PVP.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers
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Posted - 2010.07.01 17:39:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ultimately the question of "what makes me the most ISK" has ****all to do with whether the skill is useful in PVP.
-Liang
Yes thats true but it can be pointed out. You are the theoretical guy, I am the practical one. Skilling time is precious and if a player doesn't plan to be a pure mission runner, its an important question to ask himself. Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 17:42:00 -
[65]
Originally by: McRoll Yes thats true but it can be pointed out. You are the theoretical guy, I am the practical one. Skilling time is precious and if a player doesn't plan to be a pure mission runner, its an important question to ask himself.
Just because you don't see a PVP use for Cruise (today) doesn't mean that there isn't one (today) and that there wasn't one (in the past). Also, it's hardly "theoretical" when I actually HAVE the skillpoints and I'm willing to invest however many I need to fly whatever is the best - because ultimately skillpoints are easier to come by than my personal time to **** with running missions.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers
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Posted - 2010.07.01 17:56:00 -
[66]
Its not about you, its in regards to the OP who doesn't seem to have them yet. Also it's meant to be a general question to all those who can't decide what to train first. Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:07:00 -
[67]
Originally by: McRoll Its not about you, its in regards to the OP who doesn't seem to have them yet. Also it's meant to be a general question to all those who can't decide what to train first.
Sure, but the OP isn't the only person reading this and ultimately what I was trying to show that mission efficiency vs training time is a very practical concern - even for a full time pirate like me.... and mission efficiency easily overrules training time.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
justin666
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:14:00 -
[68]
i own both ships and t2 fitted i prefer the cnr any day
drones can **** anything smaller than a bs while your cruise missles can kill bs so overall it takes less time to lvl4 than lvl4 in a tengu
can people who say tengu is the best missioner stop talking out there own arses because they clearly have no idea about anything
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Goose99
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:20:00 -
[69]
Originally by: justin666 i own both ships and t2 fitted i prefer the cnr any day
drones can **** anything smaller than a bs while your cruise missles can kill bs so overall it takes less time to lvl4 than lvl4 in a tengu
can people who say tengu is the best missioner stop talking out there own arses because they clearly have no idea about anything
Heavies from a properly fit tengu (with rigors) one shot elite frigs easily, and has fast rop. It's not a BS, drones aren't actually required. It's not the best missioner overall, but not far behind, can can be faster in some missions.
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knentil
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:28:00 -
[70]
^^ or TP's s mentioned many times, tengu has good omni tank,(Don't always need to fill with boost amps or faction specific hardeners) which means you can use other mids for Tp's if you don't have rigors in rig slot.
I can't stand the Raven and thus CNR design, which if why i will eventually use a tengu.
Plus training for T2 cruise missiles does not seem worth it, as I will most likely never use them in PVP, T2 HAM's and Heavies on the other hand....
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RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:36:00 -
[71]
well did a clear of The Blockade vs Blood raiders I did it in 29m. although I was doing it in a liang cnr with signal amp, and trying to not use cap boosters (of all things to cheap out on... lols). suppose I could get it done faster, pretty much max skills 3x t1 rigors, 4x t2 bcu, 5% rof implant (have a torp clone). Also I need to remember to bring down some sentry drones next time I go to run missions, should probably be able to speed up the complete time.
probably give some missions a go after work tonight.
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Milla Jovobitch
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:05:00 -
[72]
I fly Golem, CNR, and Tengu, and I agree with Liang on his analysis. However, this thread misses out the most important thing of Internet spaceships. It's the reason why I still fly Tengu in missions.
That is:
Tengu is way more FUN to fly than CNR or Golem.
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Linda Flamewalker
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:23:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Goose99
Depends on ammo consumption rate. They use best faction for Arty/tach/torp and sometimes cruise, the additional speed means more isk/hr and more than pays for the ammo. But no one can afford it for AC, and it's an isk loser.
Pretty sure Liang proved that even with an AC mach it is worth it to use faction ammo despite the huge ammo usage.. cant find the link atm though.. *keeps looking*
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:29:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Linda Flamewalker
Originally by: Goose99
Depends on ammo consumption rate. They use best faction for Arty/tach/torp and sometimes cruise, the additional speed means more isk/hr and more than pays for the ammo. But no one can afford it for AC, and it's an isk loser.
Pretty sure Liang proved that even with an AC mach it is worth it to use faction ammo despite the huge ammo usage.. cant find the link atm though.. *keeps looking*
If you just count bounties, using faction ammo is reserved for the Vargur alone. But once you include mission reward+bonus+lp the picture changes significantly. Faction ammo is worth it even on a Mach - unless you're operating in deep falloff.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Myth Al'kar
Blueprint Haus Empire Vacation Home
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:32:00 -
[75]
I fly a tengu as my main ship.
I would not say its faster than a navy raven on most missions. It is a great mission ship and comes close.
You cant ignore drones and reload time. Even with switching ammo types as little as possible (kill all big stuff first, then mop up) you are still reloading a lot. The tengu's speed is a non issue on most missions. You afterburn off to the gate and sit still most times (if you need the speed tank to complete the mission, your doing it wrong)
PS: HAM is EFT warrior fail. It works, but it is not more effective than HMLs for missions.
Tengu is an awesome ship, and I highly recommend it, but keep it in perspective. The advantages are its customizability. Need an exploration ship? Np, fit the right subsystem for 10% per level scan. Need a heavy cov ops? Np, fit the subsystem. Need a cov ops/exploration ship for high sec plexx? Easy as pie. Need a great mission runner? Sure. Need an expensive salvage ship? Ok, now you just being silly. I higly reccomend sticking to T1 rigs if you don't have multiple tengu hulls, then you refit without pain.
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Aandaan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 03:21:00 -
[76]
One thing you will find in every Tengu Vs CNR thread. Liang bashing the Tengu
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Lunewrath
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.02 09:12:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Myth Al'kar
Tengu is an awesome ship, and I highly recommend it, but keep it in perspective. The advantages are its customizability. Need an exploration ship? Np, fit the right subsystem for 10% per level scan. Need a heavy cov ops? Np, fit the subsystem. Need a cov ops/exploration ship for high sec plexx? Easy as pie. Need a great mission runner? Sure. Need an expensive salvage ship? Ok, now you just being silly. I higly reccomend sticking to T1 rigs if you don't have multiple tengu hulls, then you refit without pain.
End of discussion.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.02 15:40:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Aandaan One thing you will find in every Tengu Vs CNR thread. Liang bashing the Tengu
I'm not a Tengu hater, contrary to what many might think. I like my Tengus. They're just not better than a CNR or Golem at running missions.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
GGjita
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Posted - 2010.07.05 02:58:00 -
[79]
CNR >>> Tengu
Yes you can make the argument that the Tengu is close to the CNR on kinetic weak enemies. The unfortunate thing is that even when fighting Kinetic weak enemies the Tengu is going to lose most of the time and this is mainly due to the fact that the CNR gets drones and doesn't need to worry about the frigs.
Now when not fight Kinetic weak enemies (say you are in Mim space fighting Angels) then the Tengu just flat loses. You can't even start to make the argument here because you can't even EFT warrior it and everyone that has flown both with max skills will tell you that the CNR is going to pwn the Tengu when fighting Angels.
Greengimp
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.05 17:13:00 -
[80]
Originally by: XXSketchxx ITT proof that lvl 4 missions still provide too much isk for little risk
Nerf Lvl 4s more
Learn how to read. This is clearly a signature. |
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.07.05 17:21:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: XXSketchxx ITT proof that lvl 4 missions still provide too much isk for little risk
Nerf Lvl 4s more
Learn how to read.
I'm sorry are you confused?
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Naye Nathaniel
Caldari New.Lab.Era
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Posted - 2010.07.05 18:42:00 -
[82]
Sorry guys but my Tengu can easly finsh WC with Pith ships in aprox.30 minutes. Can your CNR beat it? 30 km to first gate and other 20-30 to the second and 10-15 to a can.. Zomg i would die flying it... ------------------------------------------------- Im the mighty and brave! Everyone should looking for cave! ------------------------------------------------- |
RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.07.05 20:15:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Naye Nathaniel Sorry guys but my Tengu can easly finsh WC with Pith ships in aprox.30 minutes. Can your CNR beat it? 30 km to first gate and other 20-30 to the second and 10-15 to a can.. Zomg i would die flying it...
pretty sure I've done it in under 20 with the tengu. and with my nightmare it is deffo under 30m (that was without AB, finished awu5 so should be able to fit one now). don't have a time with the cnr but would assume it would be near nightmare times.
hard drive failure on my laptop, so lost a lot of my times, and haven't had a chance to run many missions lately.
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Backho
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Posted - 2010.07.05 21:13:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Backho on 05/07/2010 21:16:40 um.
I finish world collide in 18 minutes if gspies dont web me 22 minutes if gspies web me.
WHY? easy. look at liangs fit again. sig AMP. 116km range
Let me narate it for you cuz i did this too many times.
you warp in, and you already start shooting BS's from 116km 6 hits each. pop pop pop. drop 2 hit on a pithatis, and ive reached the gate. activate it.
Immediately target the closest 3 BS and slowboat to gate. 6 hits on each battleships. 3 hits on each elite cruiser.
Start volleying the elite cruisers guarding the gate, and send drones to the elite frigs guarding the gate
3 hits on each elite cruiser. Drones on frigs. when the cruisers are all dead, 2 g-spies and 3 frigs remain
Start volleying the 3 Battleships. 6 hits for non extinguishers. 7 hits for extinguishers.
I will be surrounded by frigs. manually allign the gate, kill scrambling frigs, and go off (not bothering to kill them).
If g-spies web, kill them first, delaying some precious minutes of cruise damage and slowboating.
Now im in a room with hero. drop my hammerheads on the Pithatis. Drop my cruise missiles on the Battleships
6 hits to kill the BS. drop 1 missile to 1st BC and 2nd BC, instapopping them with drone support. 6hit 6 hit the other 2 BS and the drones will finish the last BC manually. pick item. Allign to gate while dropping missiles on the furthest BS.
6 hits to kill. if jam, warp off. if not, finish it, then warp off.
18 minutes. with a raven. mind you.
Secondly. I posted calculation with 1 isk/hour cuz its annoying when people start arguing blabla 1.5 isk/hour effort trading blabla not mission running blabla. 1k isk/hour is easy, and everyone can get it.
In all honesty, now im earning 2.335K isk/LP.
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GGjita
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Posted - 2010.07.05 23:11:00 -
[85]
Originally by: PokinoCupra Ok so lets say this.
L4 blockade, 0 jumps to mish. total time 21 minutes in tengu. ALL targets dead. Your time in CNR?
http://www.xfire.com/video/2fc59a/
Here you go for a CNR. Since it was Angel you can easily add another 5 minutes to your time since you'll have to use explosive damage against angel.
So basically sure you can post a comparable time against a Kinetic weak enemy but against anything else the Tengu loses. That is why the CNR is the better/faster mission ship, because not everyone fights serp and even if you do you don't get to fight them every mission.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.05 23:49:00 -
[86]
I still haven't managed to get a blockade.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Noran Ferah
Red Sky Morning
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Posted - 2010.07.06 11:33:00 -
[87]
One thing is certain: I would never use a CNR or Golem for missioning in lowsec or null, but regularly use a tengu vs kinetically weak npc's, and a legion for most other npc missions there.
CNR and Golem are great, have flown them both for years. But, nothing beats pirate tears when you see 16 sisters combat probes on scan and you keep switching your ammo from heavy damage to precisions and back to change your sig radius as someone futilely tries to probe you.
Having a command ship adjusting sig radius and sensor str of the gang adds to the fun...
ALL are great ships. Some just have their roles. If they make you happy, fly them. |
RAPTOR22il
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Posted - 2010.07.06 13:36:00 -
[88]
to my opinion, Tengu is not the right ship to run missions with. Simple reason, he does not have any drones. my subsystem skills are level 4 and my tengu has 450 dps with heavy missiles (T2) my skills on the battleship side are level 5, with 560 dps (T1 standard ammo)
i prefer the CNR for sure, amazing damage there. tengu suck for missions, takes you time to kill the frigs.
and honestly, the golem is the best solution :) good luck mate.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.07.06 13:42:00 -
[89]
Originally by: RAPTOR22il ...
You have low skills and dont know how to fit it, properly fit tengu does 730/790 kin dps and 2-3 volleys elite frigs.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.07.06 13:45:00 -
[90]
Originally by: RAPTOR22il to my opinion, Tengu is not the right ship to run missions with. Simple reason, he does not have any drones. my subsystem skills are level 4 and my tengu has 450 dps with heavy missiles (T2) my skills on the battleship side are level 5, with 560 dps (T1 standard ammo)
i prefer the CNR for sure, amazing damage there. tengu suck for missions, takes you time to kill the frigs.
and honestly, the golem is the best solution :) good luck mate.
While drones are advantageous in their own right, to say the tengu sucks because it lacks them is simply ignorant. Have you not heard of rigor rigs?
Additionally, if you are only pulling 450 DPS on your tengu, you are doing something wrong. A 560 DPS BS seems pretty low as well. At the very least you should really train up offensive subsystem to 5, as it is a rank 1 skill and provides huge boosts.
Not saying the tengu is better than CNR or golem as I have not flown either of the last 2, but it certainly does not "suck" for missions.
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