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GemFireStorm
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Posted - 2010.07.04 20:14:00 -
[1]
It's been awhile since War Decs were discussed here and I think it is time to revisit the subject.
In Hi-Sec space, it is wildly inappropriate the way War Declarations are currently done. For instance, in the real world, even if the cops took bribes to turn the other way while a corporation with a vastly superior force crushed smaller corporations on a regular basis, I don't see the various Empires standing for it, certainly not the stations where much of the fighting happens. It's bad for business to have an Iteron and then a pod blown up during the docking maneuver. Plus, in the real world, the station would also suffer damage from fighting this close.
So the Stations aren't going to approve this kind of activity, the various military forces might stand by and watch if they are paid as well, but I really don't think a Gallente military ship is going to ignore two Caldari ships attacking one of their own. They're going to blow the misbehaving Caldari pilots out of space, at least, unless they've received a bribe as well.
I've seen the War Dec compared to real life in earlier discussions on the subject, where two corporations engage in some kind of battle. Yeah, like Microsoft vs. Apple. But most of these War Decs are like Halliburton blasting the local Flower Shop, which has no bearing on real life.
Also, if Concord is so very corrupt as to allow this activity, there are some important caveats that CCP seemingly has ignored. The Stations for one thing, Concord would likely insist that all fighting take place at least 100k from any Stations. Money from one side should also be potentially countered with money from the other side. If one corp can pay them to allow the war, another corp should be able to pay them to invalidate it. Make the War Dec a bidding process and expensive to undertake against a foe that doesn't want to fight.
It isn't FUN to have your mining and hauling ships stomped by Tech II ships and guns. This is a game with a lot of character that doesn't need to be simplified to playground bullies. When I'm ready to PVP, I'll go to low-sec and 0.0 space where each moment is a challenge and every undocking a potential adventure. I've never had any respect for anyone who picks on people incapable of fighting back on an even level. Most War Decs in Hi-Sec space, unless they're mutual, qualify for that description.
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Milla Jovobitch
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Posted - 2010.07.04 20:32:00 -
[2]
This is imaginary Internet spaceships game.
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Guy LeDuche
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Posted - 2010.07.04 20:36:00 -
[3]
Highsec grievers help noobs cancel the subscription, it's clearly in CCP's interest to encourage this with current wardec mechanics...
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Syekuda
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.07.04 21:12:00 -
[4]
leave your corp, join FW instead. no wardec. no griefers. they will give up and cry.
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Victor Zwichengastaz
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Posted - 2010.07.04 21:27:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Syekuda
FW [...] no griefers.
 not really
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Gem Sandara
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Posted - 2010.07.04 23:43:00 -
[6]
There has been tons of discussion on the physics and how ship movements work and weaponry and almost everything else - comparing it with reality. So why does this particular subject cause the reaction of "it's just a game and if you don't like it, play something else? Quit crying about it!" Why not have a real debate about it with real thought behind it?
This is a wonderful, multi-faceted game, where you can do and be almost anything. At least, until you get a message from Concord saying you've had war declared on you and you've got 24 hours (if you were online at the time!) to get ready for it. Then it becomes a game of a single aspect and all those other facets, the ones that keep you coming back, are gone and you've got Tech II ships out hunting your ass if you dare to leave the station.
What kind of player gets his jollies blowing up miners and haulers and industrialists that never did ANYTHING to them? Is this the kind of game you're defending? Why the HELL did they bother to provide all those other aspects to players if it all came down to who's got the bigger, badder ship or who's been playing for 2 or 3 years and has 50,000,000 or more experience points?
PVP fighting is only ONE aspect of this game and there are a lot of players who wish it didn't have the power to overwhelm everything else.
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Kushan
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2010.07.05 00:37:00 -
[7]
EVE isn't Hello Kitty Online. If you want everything to be warm hugs and cuddles, perhaps you should look elsewhere.
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Danks
Caldari
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
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Posted - 2010.07.05 00:47:00 -
[8]
you're comparing this to 'real life'. Like 'real life' Eve is also very unfair and can be not fun sometimes. Seems to be working to my mind 
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Scott McClellan
Forum Posters Anonymous
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Posted - 2010.07.05 07:45:00 -
[9]
Originally by: GemFireStorm
If one corp can pay them to allow the war, another corp should be able to pay them to invalidate it. Make the War Dec a bidding process and expensive to undertake against a foe that doesn't want to fight.
Honestly I think this is one of the best ideas I've heard so far. What's wrong with a little financial PvP?
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Daool
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Posted - 2010.07.05 08:05:00 -
[10]
"If one corp can pay them to allow the war, another corp should be able to pay them to invalidate it. Make the War Dec a bidding process and expensive to undertake against a foe that doesn't want to fight."
Ooooh, this actually has real merit. Personnaly I don't mind empire war games but I haven't chosen industry wars as my own form of PVP :-)
I'd have thought CCP would like it as it has the potential to suck massive amounts of ISK out of the players hands.
Surely the hard corp griefers would like it - how often (as in this thread) do we hear 'lifes a ***** get over it", well thats true it is and just as in real life those that can pay dont often fight. Its just one more aspect of war, as has been said 'get over it'.
It also completely tastes of real life which while not absolutely necessary always helps.
Worth putting to CCP I'd have thought.
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Starnap
Concentrated Evil
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Posted - 2010.07.05 11:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: GemFireStorm
Money from one side should also be potentially countered with money from the other side. If one corp can pay them to allow the war, another corp should be able to pay them to invalidate it. Make the War Dec a bidding process and expensive to undertake against a foe that doesn't want to fight.
This kind of is the situation anyway. Pay the griefers and they will likely go away. It's called a ransom. It's just one of the ways you can make isk in this game 
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Daool
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Posted - 2010.07.05 12:38:00 -
[12]
Nah, thats the whole point.
Pay a ransom and you are just flagging yourself as an ISK making machine for griefers. The targeted Corp will literally be 'farmed' by griefers one by one.
But pay that same price (heck, double it) to CCP 'outbidding' the greiefrs and they get nothing (in fact why not even have all sides put the ISK up up front so it is lost even if unsuccesful).
In the real world bribe payments are no guarantee - get outbid and they don't give you the money back
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Voith
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Posted - 2010.07.05 16:24:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Voith on 05/07/2010 16:24:35
Only problem with War Decs is that they need another digit in the cost.
"Back in the day", they were expensive as hell. Nowadays they are so cheap they are practically free.
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Qalix
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Posted - 2010.07.05 16:50:00 -
[14]
If people stopped thinking of corporations as necessary, they would never again have to worry about hisec wardecs. WHY do you need a corp to mine, etc? The only things you NEED a corp for are hisec POS anchoring and shared POS resources. Have everyone join an NPC corp or their own 1 man corp and keep right on doing whatever you want. A corp is just a name and a shared hangar (that most people shouldn't have access to). |
Sol Mahon
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.07.05 16:57:00 -
[15]
OK, here we go:
Originally by: GemFireStorm
In Hi-Sec space, it is wildly inappropriate the way War Declarations are currently done. For instance, in the real world, even if the cops took bribes to turn the other way while a corporation with a vastly superior force crushed smaller corporations on a regular basis, I don't see the various Empires standing for it, certainly not the stations where much of the fighting happens. It's bad for business to have an Iteron and then a pod blown up during the docking maneuver. Plus, in the real world, the station would also suffer damage from fighting this close.
Pod pilots/Capsuleers/Eggers are the most powerful and destructive force known to New Eden, Concord could not even hope to stand against them if they ever united, for this reason certain "accomadations" are made allowing them to fight amongst themselves, the Police forces in real life have no such problems.
In addition, Pod pilots cannot be killed they/we are immortal and therefore, less value is placed on the "life" of a Pod pilot... unlike real life.
Also the station has a mega-superflex-a-matron shield array and is therefore impervious to weapons fire... but not Nyx's apparently.
Quote:
So the Stations aren't going to approve this kind of activity, the various military forces might stand by and watch if they are paid as well, but I really don't think a Gallente military ship is going to ignore two Caldari ships attacking one of their own. They're going to blow the misbehaving Caldari pilots out of space, at least, unless they've received a bribe as well.
The allegiances of pod pilots are never this clear cut, the Gallente military in the above situation would be foolish to assume it's simply a Gallente Vs Caldari situation.
Quote:
It isn't FUN to have your mining and hauling ships stomped by Tech II ships and guns. This is a game with a lot of character that doesn't need to be simplified to playground bullies. When I'm ready to PVP, I'll go to low-sec and 0.0 space where each moment is a challenge and every undocking a potential adventure. I've never had any respect for anyone who picks on people incapable of fighting back on an even level. Most War Decs in Hi-Sec space, unless they're mutual, qualify for that description.
Unfortunatly your willingness to play this game states your readiness to PVP.
Quote:
What kind of player gets his jollies blowing up miners and haulers and industrialists that never did ANYTHING to them? Is this the kind of game you're defending? Why the HELL did they bother to provide all those other aspects to players if it all came down to who's got the bigger, badder ship or who's been playing for 2 or 3 years and has 50,000,000 or more experience points?
This comment portrays your ignorance and requires no response, however perhaps you should consider how this player got to this superior point.
In closing, this is EVE in which you are an immortal demi-god of the skies, however in real life you are just... you, therefore any comparison between the two is void.
I hope you find my response to have some real thought behind it |
Roosterton
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Posted - 2010.07.05 18:14:00 -
[16]
Originally by: GemFireStorm
Whine about wardecs
Let's all wardec this noob.
Seriously though, HTFU.
No, but really, if you don't want to be killed, don't undock.
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Titus Io
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Posted - 2010.07.05 18:55:00 -
[17]
I like the idea for bidding wars for... well, wars. When you pay concord that fee you are basically paying them to look the other way while you beat on people. Why shouldn't your victim have the chance to pay off concord to do exactly the opposite? There's too much ISK in the world anyway.
It'd be fairly easy to implement. Same war dec mechanics except the 24hr stasis becomes a 24hr bidding period whereby the war-decced corp/alliance has 24hrs to put forward an amount of ISK equalling 1.5 times that which the war-deccers put forward. And the same again with roles reversed if the amount is met. Rinse and repeat until one side can't or doesn't want to meet the amount.
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Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
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Posted - 2010.07.05 19:17:00 -
[18]
Keep in mind that you're an immortal. You are gifted with the freedom to spend eternity amassing wealth beyond the dreams of avarice, boldly going where no man has gone before, and constructing an empire.
And you think some cop on a 9-5 shift, whose main hope is to live long enough to make it to retirement, is going to lose his doughnuts over your lost Iteron?
...
Join M. Corp, see the Galaxy |
Scott McClellan
Forum Posters Anonymous
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Posted - 2010.07.05 19:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sol Mahon
OK, here we go:
Unfortunatly[sic] your willingness to play this game states your readiness to PVP.
PVP in Eve occurs in all forms of interaction, players compete against players for minerals, market position, scamming.
PVP is not solely ship to ship combat. It's only part of the equation. A war bidding system adds an additional PVP aspect, and can easily be explained in this world (better so than the current dec system.)
Also, why doesn't the dec system keep pace the inflation of ISK? 2M is paltry, if it was meant to add some cost to the declaration of war, it should keep pace with the amount of money that's flying around. As of now it's a joke, a static element in a highly dynamic game.
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Hazel Starr
Krypteia Brotherhood
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Posted - 2010.07.06 00:42:00 -
[20]
There are plenty of different options available to you depending
on your ISK resources and character,
a) Flee to other corps
b) Fight together in small ships and try to extract blood from the attacker
c) Call in support, bring in a merc corps or bad-boy friends against the griefers
d) Hide away in alts for a week or two and hope the griefers have lost interest
e) Pay up but require protection from the griefer for the longterm
Mixtures of the above,
-- Haze
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Eddie Valiant
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Posted - 2010.07.06 00:56:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Hazel Starr
There are plenty of different options available to you depending
on your ISK resources and character,
a) Flee to other corps
b) Fight together in small ships and try to extract blood from the attacker
c) Call in support, bring in a merc corps or bad-boy friends against the griefers
d) Hide away in alts for a week or two and hope the griefers have lost interest
e) Pay up but require protection from the griefer for the longterm
Mixtures of the above,
-- Haze
You forgot to add: Just move.
Seriously, most folks are not going to fly the 15 jumps (let alone 30) to the system that their locator agent reported you at. Maintain multiple bases, and if you really don't want to participate in a war, move to the base furthest from the arena of operations that your WTs frequent. It can be expensive to set up, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than ISK lost to hiding in the station or replacing ships.
Any corp paying for PvP is going to give up after a week of no WTs. |
Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.06 00:59:00 -
[22]
I have 2 locator agents in the same system and 2 chars with access to both agents, I WILL travel 20 jumps (and more) for a kill while "pinging" the target as I'm closing in.
-----------
Want to learn combat/PVP?
Alliance creation service |
Annubi
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Posted - 2010.07.06 01:02:00 -
[23]
That's a long trip for a smart care-bear dock up and clone jump another 20 jumps when you get there, but it's you time...
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Voith
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Posted - 2010.07.06 01:13:00 -
[24]
Non-mutual War Decs should be 1 billion isk per dec, doubling for each active Dec, and cost 250 million a week to sustain, doubling for each active Dec.
Empire Dec'ers are such leet PvPers they should easily be able to handle the extra cost, right?
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Heinrech Kramer
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Posted - 2010.07.06 02:03:00 -
[25]
Thus ensuring that only truly massive corps could afford to dec? I thought that the large corps running war decs was part of the OP's problem?
Seriously, this is just laziness on the part of the OP and those who agree. It isn't that hard to avoid unwanted PvP. |
Voith
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Posted - 2010.07.06 02:12:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Heinrech Kramer
Thus ensuring that only truly massive corps could afford to dec? I thought that the large corps running war decs was part of the OP's problem?
Seriously, this is just laziness on the part of the OP and those who agree. It isn't that hard to avoid unwanted PvP.
But but but I thought Empire Dec'ers were awesome PvPers who just billed their clients the expenses anyway!!!!111one
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Illadelph Justice
The Six-Pack Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.06 14:42:00 -
[27]
Originally by: GemFireStorm
For instance, in the real world...
I stopped reading here
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JTDaBeast
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Posted - 2010.07.06 21:07:00 -
[28]
It costs time and money to war dec someone (or corp, whatever). You can check your corp window to see if a war has been declared on you. You can also check your local channel to see if there are any red skulls next to anyone's name. There are many good ways (other replies above) to get this resolved, or to avoid getting shot down in high sec.
And for what it's worth, since you're a "real life" comparing type person, just cause you move out of the slums,and into the suburbs, don't mean there won't be any home invasions. Get your skills up.
JT
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ReVeR DeBooN
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Posted - 2010.07.06 21:36:00 -
[29]
I agree that It is wrong to wardec a miner or hauler. CCP should do something about this. I have canceled subscription two times before cause of wardec. I like to mine, im highly skilled and invested in it. I provide alot of ore to eve, I should not be punished for it.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2010.07.06 21:42:00 -
[30]
Originally by: ReVeR DeBooN
I provide alot of ore to eve I oversupply the mineral market, I should not be punished for it.
FTFY. Punishment incoming. Wardec free even.
As for the general whine. If your corp can't handle a wardec then what you want is a chat channel, not a corp.
Originally by: CCP Lemur
THIS IS GOD: ...
IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
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