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Has TomB given up on us?

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alynne	Posted - 2004.12.17 06:53:00 - [1] There's been a total lack of communication coming from TomB and the whole ship/module/combat balancing part of CCP. I remember posts being made on turret balancing, laser rebalancing, ship powergrid changes, all that lead to the introduction of tech 2 guns. Then we were told after tracking was redone and tech 2 guns were out, CCP would do drones, missles and eventually redo the entire electronic warfare system. What the hell happened? The absence of these balances is holding up tech 2 content distrobution. Oh and tracking balance is a lot better than it was before but battleship guns still hit frigs and cruisers in most situations where they're not doing insane speeds. remember this? missle rebalancing CCP spent months on this and in the end it failed because the EVE physics engine couldn't support it. So while missles got a stat, skill and fitting overhaul, their general physics didn't change one bit. No dice. Drones were tweaked and given tracking, but medium drones are still effective against mwding interceptors, let alone something that doesn't fit a mwd. End result? Anything smaller than a battleship has to rely on speed for defense or face the full firepower of a battleship. Have you seen any frigs that could tank a battleship? I haven't. The recent changes to ab/mwd are ok, but seemingly pointless. They tackle the problem at the wrong level. The real reason anyone even needs to fit a mwd is crap like battleship missles (cruise+torp) hitting smaller class ships for full damage. So, thats part one of my plea to TomB.. tell us something, anything. I'm sure Exodus is keeping you busy but we need some numbers to crunch, some small bit of hope that you're at least working on this. Cause right now, I'm finding the current "broken" version of pvp balance quite depressing. In order of importance: missles, tracking+guns, drones, EW Part two of my plea is for CCP to look into a simpler and more effective approach of balancing missles. The main issue is they'll hit your ship every single time unless you're going very fast. The solution? Give them a fixed turn-radius value, which is modified by the sig radius of the targetted ship. Unlike the method already tried by CCP, this doesn't synthesize missle tracking and agility because the speed is always constant and the turn radius is only changed by the enemy ship. Result is a missle will go at your target full speed, but if the target is small your torp/cruise may not be able to turn fast enough to keep up with transverse velocity.. and you get a missle going towards the target, but skimming past it and making a big loop to try and circle around for another pass. This means that frigs will take a lot more skill to fly as you'd need to change direction to avoid the missles, but you wouldn't necessarily need to fit a mwd. Otherwise useless frigs like the punisher, tristan or merlin will get a new lease on life. But what if you get neutralized or nosfered? So? Even with no energy left you're still able to evade the missles. Only really effective method might be to carry a web, but that tactic works to help turret users hit their enemies as well. Also the stats can be tweaked so that even a webbed non-mwd frig stands some chance of evading a torp if his/her transverse velocity is high enough. Hence the benefit of using afterburners! Higher speed.. no sig penalty.. some hope if you get webbed. The turn radius and signature formula can be tweaked until non-mwd frigs can evade torps/cruise if their transverse velocity is high enough.. fitting a mwd will yield no extra advantage as the turning speed of the missle will increase in proportion to your signature radius. This means that battleships that fit mwd won't be able to "evade" torp/cruise fire. I know this probably isn't easy to code atm as missles seem to have unlimited turn radius velocity (they'd spin on a dime if you were fast enough to go around them).. but its the only thing I see working that won't kill the server like the previously proposed changes. Please, please.. tell us something is being done. Missles are by far the number one problem in EVE pvp right now. I would rate it above fleet battle lag, since it affects all scale of combat.
alynne	Posted - 2004.12.17 06:53:00 - [2] There's been a total lack of communication coming from TomB and the whole ship/module/combat balancing part of CCP. I remember posts being made on turret balancing, laser rebalancing, ship powergrid changes, all that lead to the introduction of tech 2 guns. Then we were told after tracking was redone and tech 2 guns were out, CCP would do drones, missles and eventually redo the entire electronic warfare system. What the hell happened? The absence of these balances is holding up tech 2 content distrobution. Oh and tracking balance is a lot better than it was before but battleship guns still hit frigs and cruisers in most situations where they're not doing insane speeds. remember this? missle rebalancing CCP spent months on this and in the end it failed because the EVE physics engine couldn't support it. So while missles got a stat, skill and fitting overhaul, their general physics didn't change one bit. No dice. Drones were tweaked and given tracking, but medium drones are still effective against mwding interceptors, let alone something that doesn't fit a mwd. End result? Anything smaller than a battleship has to rely on speed for defense or face the full firepower of a battleship. Have you seen any frigs that could tank a battleship? I haven't. The recent changes to ab/mwd are ok, but seemingly pointless. They tackle the problem at the wrong level. The real reason anyone even needs to fit a mwd is crap like battleship missles (cruise+torp) hitting smaller class ships for full damage. So, thats part one of my plea to TomB.. tell us something, anything. I'm sure Exodus is keeping you busy but we need some numbers to crunch, some small bit of hope that you're at least working on this. Cause right now, I'm finding the current "broken" version of pvp balance quite depressing. In order of importance: missles, tracking+guns, drones, EW Part two of my plea is for CCP to look into a simpler and more effective approach of balancing missles. The main issue is they'll hit your ship every single time unless you're going very fast. The solution? Give them a fixed turn-radius value, which is modified by the sig radius of the targetted ship. Unlike the method already tried by CCP, this doesn't synthesize missle tracking and agility because the speed is always constant and the turn radius is only changed by the enemy ship. Result is a missle will go at your target full speed, but if the target is small your torp/cruise may not be able to turn fast enough to keep up with transverse velocity.. and you get a missle going towards the target, but skimming past it and making a big loop to try and circle around for another pass. This means that frigs will take a lot more skill to fly as you'd need to change direction to avoid the missles, but you wouldn't necessarily need to fit a mwd. Otherwise useless frigs like the punisher, tristan or merlin will get a new lease on life. But what if you get neutralized or nosfered? So? Even with no energy left you're still able to evade the missles. Only really effective method might be to carry a web, but that tactic works to help turret users hit their enemies as well. Also the stats can be tweaked so that even a webbed non-mwd frig stands some chance of evading a torp if his/her transverse velocity is high enough. Hence the benefit of using afterburners! Higher speed.. no sig penalty.. some hope if you get webbed. The turn radius and signature formula can be tweaked until non-mwd frigs can evade torps/cruise if their transverse velocity is high enough.. fitting a mwd will yield no extra advantage as the turning speed of the missle will increase in proportion to your signature radius. This means that battleships that fit mwd won't be able to "evade" torp/cruise fire. I know this probably isn't easy to code atm as missles seem to have unlimited turn radius velocity (they'd spin on a dime if you were fast enough to go around them).. but its the only thing I see working that won't kill the server like the previously proposed changes. Please, please.. tell us something is being done. Missles are by far the number one problem in EVE pvp right now. I would rate it above fleet battle lag, since it affects all scale of combat.
Tyrrax Thorrk	Posted - 2004.12.17 07:01:00 - [3] Balancing without following through is bad, we shouldn't get one part of the fix and then wait 7 months for the next part... Until that next part arrives we're stuck with the current ridiculous situation where missiles are very strong against frigates and cruisers in situations where turrets are absolutely useless. I'd like to see a reply to this that isn't just "wait for Kali", or lasers are overpowered don't nerf missiles ! Tbh I'll be surprised if any dev is willing to touch this thread with a 10 foot stick, I don't think they have a solution. Good post anyways. http://eve.klaki.net/
Tyrrax Thorrk	Posted - 2004.12.17 07:01:00 - [4] Balancing without following through is bad, we shouldn't get one part of the fix and then wait 7 months for the next part... Until that next part arrives we're stuck with the current ridiculous situation where missiles are very strong against frigates and cruisers in situations where turrets are absolutely useless. I'd like to see a reply to this that isn't just "wait for Kali", or lasers are overpowered don't nerf missiles ! Tbh I'll be surprised if any dev is willing to touch this thread with a 10 foot stick, I don't think they have a solution. Good post anyways. http://eve.klaki.net/
Kuolematon	Posted - 2004.12.17 07:03:00 - [5] You know there is an easy solution to this .. everyone fly battleships rather than intys and whatevers. Beside BS's are biggest and best ships out there. Noone would scream about nerfs or balances. Just get your BS skills up and your ready to play EVE. _______________________________________________ My opinions aren't my corporations opinions. (\_/) (x.x) This is what's left of Bunny, the rest tasted delicious.
Kuolematon	Posted - 2004.12.17 07:03:00 - [6] You know there is an easy solution to this .. everyone fly battleships rather than intys and whatevers. Beside BS's are biggest and best ships out there. Noone would scream about nerfs or balances. Just get your BS skills up and your ready to play EVE. _______________________________________________ My opinions aren't my corporations opinions. (\_/) (x.x) This is what's left of Bunny, the rest tasted delicious.
lucindia	Posted - 2004.12.17 07:05:00 - [7] Originally by: Kuolematon You know there is an easy solution to this .. everyone fly battleships rather than intys and whatevers. Beside BS's are biggest and best ships out there. Noone would scream about nerfs or balances. Just get your BS skills up and your ready to play EVE. I was around for pre-castor. No thanks. Flying anything but a battleship was suicide. Frigs were made useful with their speed, but everything thats too slow and too weak is just a trinket, or worse.. cannon fodder.
lucindia	Posted - 2004.12.17 07:05:00 - [8] Originally by: Kuolematon You know there is an easy solution to this .. everyone fly battleships rather than intys and whatevers. Beside BS's are biggest and best ships out there. Noone would scream about nerfs or balances. Just get your BS skills up and your ready to play EVE. I was around for pre-castor. No thanks. Flying anything but a battleship was suicide. Frigs were made useful with their speed, but everything thats too slow and too weak is just a trinket, or worse.. cannon fodder.
Kaeten	Posted - 2004.12.17 07:50:00 - [9] well they did fix the defender missles :P ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Kaeten	Posted - 2004.12.17 07:50:00 - [10] well they did fix the defender missles :P ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
hatchette	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:01:00 - [11] Quote: Part two of my plea is for CCP to look into a simpler and more effective approach of balancing missles. The main issue is they'll hit your ship every single time unless you're going very fast. The solution? Give them a fixed turn-radius value, which is modified by the sig radius of the targetted ship. Unlike the method already tried by CCP, this doesn't synthesize missle tracking and agility because the speed is always constant and the turn radius is only changed by the enemy ship. Devs tried putting in "agility" for the missiles.. exactly what you are talking about. But calculating agility for every missile was too cpu hungry, so they dropped that idea. Another thing.. despite i was using oversized afterburners on amarr ships (crusader, punisher, maller, ...) i like the changes. Now you'll have to sacrifice some real firepower if you don't want to get hit. It won't be "one setup pwns all" anymore.. and i like that.
hatchette	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:01:00 - [12] Quote: Part two of my plea is for CCP to look into a simpler and more effective approach of balancing missles. The main issue is they'll hit your ship every single time unless you're going very fast. The solution? Give them a fixed turn-radius value, which is modified by the sig radius of the targetted ship. Unlike the method already tried by CCP, this doesn't synthesize missle tracking and agility because the speed is always constant and the turn radius is only changed by the enemy ship. Devs tried putting in "agility" for the missiles.. exactly what you are talking about. But calculating agility for every missile was too cpu hungry, so they dropped that idea. Another thing.. despite i was using oversized afterburners on amarr ships (crusader, punisher, maller, ...) i like the changes. Now you'll have to sacrifice some real firepower if you don't want to get hit. It won't be "one setup pwns all" anymore.. and i like that.
Hithero Wolf	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:04:00 - [13] I found that frigates like assault are pretty good ve a BS. I dont use a mwd on it and after the change to AB¦s i¦m even happier. A BS gun simply dont hit me. I¦ve test vs a friend, he couldn¦t hit me. I¦ve killed BS rats without worry. Even im caldari and uses missiles i have to agree, they need to sort missiles. If i remember it right, the gun changes was suppose to do exactly what it does now, a bs gun wont hit you (unless you fit a mwd)this gives you alot of tactical options in a battle. Until you enter missiles.... They WILL hit me and kill me, thus i need speed. I use a MWD and the guns will get me... I dont know how to fix missiles. Reduceing damge vs samller ships doesnt sound like a good solution...but i agree with the statement that its need to be sorted, soon.
Hithero Wolf	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:04:00 - [14] I found that frigates like assault are pretty good ve a BS. I dont use a mwd on it and after the change to AB¦s i¦m even happier. A BS gun simply dont hit me. I¦ve test vs a friend, he couldn¦t hit me. I¦ve killed BS rats without worry. Even im caldari and uses missiles i have to agree, they need to sort missiles. If i remember it right, the gun changes was suppose to do exactly what it does now, a bs gun wont hit you (unless you fit a mwd)this gives you alot of tactical options in a battle. Until you enter missiles.... They WILL hit me and kill me, thus i need speed. I use a MWD and the guns will get me... I dont know how to fix missiles. Reduceing damge vs samller ships doesnt sound like a good solution...but i agree with the statement that its need to be sorted, soon.
Malvolio	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:07:00 - [15] I heard from someone that TomB left CCP a while back? That could be why he doesnt reply anymore.
Malvolio	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:07:00 - [16] I heard from someone that TomB left CCP a while back? That could be why he doesnt reply anymore.
ElCoCo	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:17:00 - [17] Originally by: hatchette Now you'll have to sacrifice some real firepower if you don't want to get hit. Actualy only frigs can actualy do that. I was sick of seeing dual100mnAB cruisers being almost invulnerable, but at the least I would think that you could fit a 100mnAB/10mnMWD combo so that you would get a nice signature radius increase making you vulnerable to turret fire but still giving cruisers a chance to last more than a raven torp volley. Now it's really just missiles all the way
ElCoCo	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:17:00 - [18] Originally by: hatchette Now you'll have to sacrifice some real firepower if you don't want to get hit. Actualy only frigs can actualy do that. I was sick of seeing dual100mnAB cruisers being almost invulnerable, but at the least I would think that you could fit a 100mnAB/10mnMWD combo so that you would get a nice signature radius increase making you vulnerable to turret fire but still giving cruisers a chance to last more than a raven torp volley. Now it's really just missiles all the way
Romulus X'Ar	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:18:00 - [19] Hmmm, never tried it... can you lock onto a missile? If missiles were lockable, could fire on em with your turrets. Just a passing thought
Romulus X'Ar	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:18:00 - [20] Hmmm, never tried it... can you lock onto a missile? If missiles were lockable, could fire on em with your turrets. Just a passing thought
Tyrrax Thorrk	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:30:00 - [21] Shooting missiles with turrets used to be possible, was made impossible many months back. Afaik TomB still works at CCP. http://eve.klaki.net/
Tyrrax Thorrk	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:30:00 - [22] Shooting missiles with turrets used to be possible, was made impossible many months back. Afaik TomB still works at CCP. http://eve.klaki.net/
Romulus X'Ar	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:36:00 - [23] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Shooting missiles with turrets used to be possible, was made impossible many months back. Afaik TomB still works at CCP. I've been playing since March. Was it before this? Why was it taken out? Might be worth revisiting since all the tracking changes a few months back. I could see where the uber Raven users would have cried foul when encountering a fleet of apocs hehe.
Romulus X'Ar	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Shooting missiles with turrets used to be possible, was made impossible many months back. Afaik TomB still works at CCP. I've been playing since March. Was it before this? Why was it taken out? Might be worth revisiting since all the tracking changes a few months back. I could see where the uber Raven users would have cried foul when encountering a fleet of apocs hehe.
Logan Xerxes	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:43:00 - [25] And how long would the locking time be on missiles anyway?
Logan Xerxes	Posted - 2004.12.17 08:43:00 - [26] And how long would the locking time be on missiles anyway?
Alex Kerwel	Posted - 2004.12.17 09:32:00 - [27] Originally by: Kaeten well they did fix the defender missles :P hands over a cookie Yes, defenders seem to work nicely. But, before giving a definite statement a few tests need to be done. Maybe the complaining about the missile/speed nerf combo is premature until those tests are done?
Alex Kerwel	Posted - 2004.12.17 09:32:00 - [28] Originally by: Kaeten well they did fix the defender missles :P hands over a cookie Yes, defenders seem to work nicely. But, before giving a definite statement a few tests need to be done. Maybe the complaining about the missile/speed nerf combo is premature until those tests are done?
Gungankllr	Posted - 2004.12.17 10:26:00 - [29] Maybe TomB is busy fixing things. Everyone needs to lighten up. If you wat to play a game that doesn't change, there's always internet checkers on MSN. Not a lot of problems with nerfing or changes there. www.hadean.org
Gungankllr	Posted - 2004.12.17 10:26:00 - [30] Maybe TomB is busy fixing things. Everyone needs to lighten up. If you wat to play a game that doesn't change, there's always internet checkers on MSN. Not a lot of problems with nerfing or changes there. www.hadean.org

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