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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2010.07.07 17:21:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 07/07/2010 17:38:57 I propose not that we eliminate WTZ persay, but eliminate the ability to accurately warp to X without some form of random deviation.
It is debatable whether or not the game was healthier before WTZ, what is not debatable is that the game is much better off without the thousands of BMs that we had.
HOW THIS WOULD WORK:
-You would still have your list of warp to xxkm. -You still have the ability to create BMs
What this feature would introduce is that, across the board, whenever you warp to xxkm you would actually land (randomly) between +15km or -15km of your intended target (you might warp at 2km, you might warp at 0km, you might warp at 15km)
We all know 0.0 has bubbles, i'm not trying to make them obsolete or anything like that. What this would do is slow down travel a SMALL amount. A few seconds per jump in most cases, more larger entities(ie: get a scout or escort per usual SOP). This would allow for more opportunity to.... engage with the local system inhabitants?
Other possible effects (top of my head): -moar pvp -boost to low sec (kinda ties in w/ moar pvp) -slower travel = more work to haul region to region (likely boost to hauling as a trade) -less 0.0 camping? (see below) -many other aspects would come into play as one can imagine. we don't JUST warp to gates do we? We warp to pos's, stations, belts, wormholes etc etc etc... in each case the same logic applies. More of an opportunity to meet people of new and interesting cultures (and kill them) you otherwise would have not stopped to meet.
as a closing comment, i'd like to say once upon a time old salts like me viewed eve as a VERY LARGE game. we have not gained/lost significant space however changes such as warp to zero, jump clones, jump bridges, jump freighters (probably forgetting some) have made this game significantly smaller. While for some of these changes this has opened up opportunity for new professions, other changes have simply made the game needlessly smaller. Nothing in eve should be overly easy, especially travel and avoiding conflict.
While in 0.0 you can put bubbles all along a given high traffic route, this is not an option for low sec or high sec pvp. Ultimately this would lead to more GFs in low and high sec, and in 0.0 the ability to report a target in x system and have a chance to intercept later in the route without having to resort to a drag bubble camp (though still an option!) may lessen some of the need to camp overly large bubble camps.
Submitted for your approval. Unless you just really feel travel should be as quick and painless as possible, I can't imagine this not being a much better solution to an issue 'fixed' by implementing what we now know as wtz.
-- A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game. |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.07.07 17:27:00 -
[2]
it wouldnt lead to more good fights in lowsec or highsec. it would lead to more (suicide) ganks.
not supported.
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eliminator2
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Posted - 2010.07.07 17:29:00 -
[3]
i miss the time before WTZ where low-sec was populated by gate camps to bust ^^
supported -----------------------------------------------
I met Eliminator1..... I chewed it up, and spat it out. Now, he is my minion.
I kill miners and mission runners people say, I call them target pra |
Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2010.07.07 17:32:00 -
[4]
Am I allowed to support my own thread?
I'm supporting my own thread.
-- A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game. |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.07 18:06:00 -
[5]
Negative.
When I bookmark a spot in space I want to fly to THAT spot in space. Not to some random spot NEAR that spot. --Vel
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Celestine Santora
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Posted - 2010.07.07 18:13:00 -
[6]
I like the idea in general but 15km is too much deviation IMO, unless it's curved somehow so that the RNG has to really hate you to land you that far out.
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Saelie
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Posted - 2010.07.07 18:32:00 -
[7]
People who would like this idea: Gate-campers Suicide gankers Lazy PvPers
People who would hate this idea: Everyone else
People who would REALLY hate this idea: Miners (15km is the maximum range of unbonused strip miners, and those ships are the slowest in the game) Haulers (More time to get suicided, and freighters take long enough to go anywhere already) Mission-runners (Since that 15km warp-in would apply to mission acceleration gates too) Combat Probers (Since 'Warp to me' doesn't mean 'Warp within a 15km bubble of me')
As a combat prober, miner, and occasional mission-runner, I say this: Not supported. |
democrities
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Posted - 2010.07.07 18:34:00 -
[8]
Edited by: democrities on 07/07/2010 18:35:22 You people are so shortsighted, unable to comphrehend nor ponder the long term consequences of your actions. You seek this change of course to make PVP easier for you, but did you for once think, that if you get things changed in the game and make things to hard for your desired victims, that they will simply stop going to low and nullsec? Your kills will go way down. Your trying to make it extremly hard for "carebears" in the game, and seemingly unable to see how that might negatively effect your kill stats.
If you make things to hard for your prey they will simply leave. This is a horrid idea. The only way people will venture into systems where they can be killed is if they know they have an out. You take away warp to zero that just makes it that much more risky, and people are less likely to venture into dangerous areas.
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tracykins
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Posted - 2010.07.07 18:37:00 -
[9]
Edited by: tracykins on 07/07/2010 18:37:10 I love this idea! You can also add a skill with it, to improve accuracy by 1km per lvl. So with max skills it would be +/- 10km. There is alot of potential here, diffrent ship types could also be given diffrent max deviations so as to make certain ships slower/more dangerous to travel in and other faster/safer. |
Gabriel Rosencrantz
Red Frog Investments
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Posted - 2010.07.07 18:45:00 -
[10]
On behalf of the professional freighting community:
NO
Thank You Gabe
Red Frog Freight: Hisec Courier Service |
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2010.07.07 18:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: democrities
You people are so shortsighted, unable to comphrehend nor ponder the long term consequences of your actions.
Appreciate you commenting.
Please remember, Eve lived with warp to 15 for a long time! Some of us that have been here for both WT15 and WTZ have had the ability to weight the pros and cons of both.
I do not seek 'easy pvp' however if you interpret this as "extremely hard for carebears" all I can say is, when I was a carebear I used to move to 0.0 one ship at a time, with a scout (often get ganked) and still made a profit.
Nothing in Eve is supposed to be overly easy. Eve revolves around opportunity and opposition, it's what makes it a great game. And while I can respect that many people here may not agree with how I wish the mechanics to shift I respectfully suggest that what you and they want for yourselves may not be what is best for the game.
If anything, the past has shown us that even the most fluffy of carebears were able to survive and adapt with WT15. And keep in mind, this mechanic would be even softer than WT15 was. (you might land 2km, you might land 0, you might land 12km....)
-- A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game. |
democrities
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Posted - 2010.07.07 18:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: democrities
You people are so shortsighted, unable to comphrehend nor ponder the long term consequences of your actions.
Appreciate you commenting.
Please remember, Eve lived with warp to 15 for a long time! Some of us that have been here for both WT15 and WTZ have had the ability to weight the pros and cons of both.
I do not seek 'easy pvp' however if you interpret this as "extremely hard for carebears" all I can say is, when I was a carebear I used to move to 0.0 one ship at a time, with a scout (often get ganked) and still made a profit.
Nothing in Eve is supposed to be overly easy. Eve revolves around opportunity and opposition, it's what makes it a great game. And while I can respect that many people here may not agree with how I wish the mechanics to shift I respectfully suggest that what you and they want for yourselves may not be what is best for the game.
If anything, the past has shown us that even the most fluffy of carebears were able to survive and adapt with WT15. And keep in mind, this mechanic would be even softer than WT15 was. (you might land 2km, you might land 0, you might land 12km....)
Yes, but now they have WTZ. If you give someone something, then take it away, it angers them much more then if you just hadn;t given it to them in the first place.
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Saelie
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Posted - 2010.07.07 18:59:00 -
[13]
Thing is, the game didn't survive with it nearly as long as you think. The reason Warp to Zero came in was to clear up the millions upon millions of bookmarks people created to circumvent the Warp to 15 system that was in place - Essentially, people had already beaten the system and CCP simply bowed their heads in defeat and made it so. This was also a time far removed from the EVE of today - The game has evolved for years based on the presence of Warp to Zero allowing for things like freighters to be useful. What worked back then, with a much smaller playerbase, with many fewer ships, with an entirely different development status, will not necessarily work today.
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Jada Maroo
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Posted - 2010.07.07 19:01:00 -
[14]
God no. Having to make a 27 jump Jita run to resupply even with WTZ is tedious. Without it, in an indy ship? Do you have any idea how long it takes to go 15km in one?
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Illrean
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Posted - 2010.07.07 19:04:00 -
[15]
WTZ on your PoS.. oh I'm sorry.. you just ended up 15km out and have to slowboat your freighter/dreadnaught/Supercarrier under the shields.
No thanks.
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Seamus Donohue
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.07 19:19:00 -
[16]
Not supported, on the grounds that it will encourage bookmarking of Stargates and Stations, anyway.
I keep the following in NeoCom > Notepad under the title "Stargate Sizes" simply because I was curious: Amarr System . . . . . .4946 m Amarr Constellation . . .4646 m Amarr Region . . . . . ...14 km Amarr Border . . . . . ..26 km Caldari System . . . . ..7065 m Caldari Constellation . ..8998 m Caldari Region . . . . . .15 km Caldari Border . . . . ...28 km Gallente System . . . . .6754 m Gallente Constellation . 9412 m Gallente Region . . . . ..10 km Gallente Border . . . . .38 km Minmatar System . . . .4995 m Minmatar Constellation. 25 km Minmatar Region . . .. ..24 km Minmatar Border . . . .42 km Smuggler Gate . . . . ..
I've only seen a Smuggler Gate on Singularity, and I didn't write down the "size" that appeared in my Overview, so I'm not sure how big it is. The periods are just to keep the almost evenly spaced in the in-game Notepad. Note that these sizes are diameters, so their radii are exactly half. We're concerned with the radii here.
Most Stargates are "System" gates, rather than "Constellation", "Region", and "Border". Thus, most Stargates have a 2.5 km radius, and a 2.5 km jump range beyond that. To minimize the effect of a random 15 kilometer deviation, players will start creating custom bookmarks for Stargates again by flying a small ship right into the middle of the Stargate. Theoretically, when one warps to a bookmark at the exact center of a Stargate, the ship can land no further out than 10 km from the jump limit. This would be useful to some pilots (like Freighter pilots) to minimize travel time between dropping from warp and reaching the gate.
A moderate-sized minority of Stargates are significantly larger than this, so a bookmark placed at their centers would have even less maximum deviation from the jump limit than for small Stargates. A few Stargates are just so massive that their radii-plus-jump-distance are larger than 15 kilometers, so warping to a bookmark at their center will guarantee still being within jump range: these include (and are limited to) all four "Border" stargates, "Minmatar Constellation", and "Minmatar Region" gates.
Stations are also susceptible to being bookmarked in this manner. Many stations have a geometry such that it's possible to get a small ship near the center of a station to bookmark the center. Docking requests are accepted once a ship is within 500 meters of a station's outer boundary sphere (that is, at a distance of 0.5 * "Size" + 500 meters from the center of the station). Most stations, however, are gigantic when compared to System gates, and all stations can be bookmarked in such a way that a 15 kilometer random deviation is still within the docking perimeter.
Besides the problems with the particular proposed mechanic, as described above, finding some other way to eliminate Warp-To-Zero that players can't work around using bookmarks sounds like a bad idea because it will just frustrate normal travel that happens during the majority of the time when PvP isn't happening during travel. __________________________________________________ Survivor of Teskanen, fan of John Rourke. |
Algathas
United Amarr Templar Legion Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.07.07 19:27:00 -
[17]
Not supported.
Besides the obvious issues with moving a large slow ship like a freighter around, imagine having to move an entire fleet... Every gate the entire fleet would have to stop, wait for all the BS to approach gate, etc.
In addition it would cause issues with stealth bombers setting up bombing runs, warping to a certain distance from a titan to bridge through and then oh no you are way too far or you land right on top and bump them.. the problems with this are endless.
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.07.07 19:31:00 -
[18]
Um no. Travel takes up so much time already, it was a change for the better to have WTZ. I would even make autopilot WTZ, but I am aware of the intended tradeoff. Second, tactical positioning is the key in small gangs - how would you like your RR group being spread out 30k from each other every time you do a tactical warp?
If you want to gank random haulers going through gates, put up a bubble.
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MSC Darklord
Minmatar Shadow Company
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Posted - 2010.07.07 19:33:00 -
[19]
I don't like it. Here is why: Interceptors, covert ops and recon class: Those ships need to be able to get to places fast and accurately. Haulers, freighters: Those things are slow, very slow and people who use them and play actively when moving about will hate it. If they wanted to autopilot they would. Acceleration gates: Ever had to warp out and then slowboat to a gate in a mission or a plex? Imagine having to do 15 more km in a battleship. Warping at range: you want to warp to 50km to be at your optimal, you can now land at 65km and therefor your tactic is now ruined.
Probably a lot more things wrong with this.
__________________________
Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad.
Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
Said after a 60 second shut down notice that was then canceled. |
Arec Bardwin
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Posted - 2010.07.07 19:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Seamus Donohue Not supported, on the grounds that it will encourage bookmarking of Stargates and Stations, anyway.
This.
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Safrel
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Posted - 2010.07.07 19:56:00 -
[21]
Supported, but i want it modified.
Personally, I'd prefer the deviation to be greater the farther you have to warp to get to the gate. EX: a 88 AU warp from one side of the system to another would land you within 15-10 km of the gate.
A sort of "lock-on" strength.
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Brother Kasimir
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Posted - 2010.07.07 22:45:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Seamus Donohue Not supported, on the grounds that it will encourage bookmarking of Stargates and Stations, anyway.
Not as "curious" as Seamus but most people are aware there's a radius and will BM to kill as much of the deviation as possible. As a former ISS bookmarker I can tell you going back to working with BM on every single gate and station from every possible angle is not desirable. NOT desirable!
No support.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.07 23:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: democrities
You people are so shortsighted, unable to comphrehend nor ponder the long term consequences of your actions.
Appreciate you commenting.
Please remember, Eve lived with warp to 15 for a long time! Some of us that have been here for both WT15 and WTZ have had the ability to weight the pros and cons of both.
I do not seek 'easy pvp' however if you interpret this as "extremely hard for carebears" all I can say is, when I was a carebear I used to move to 0.0 one ship at a time, with a scout (often get ganked) and still made a profit.
Nothing in Eve is supposed to be overly easy. Eve revolves around opportunity and opposition, it's what makes it a great game. And while I can respect that many people here may not agree with how I wish the mechanics to shift I respectfully suggest that what you and they want for yourselves may not be what is best for the game.
If anything, the past has shown us that even the most fluffy of carebears were able to survive and adapt with WT15. And keep in mind, this mechanic would be even softer than WT15 was. (you might land 2km, you might land 0, you might land 12km....)
I see you suffer from selective memory, Let me remember something from the time when warp to 15 was in effect:
people used millions of insta bookmarks to warp to 0 and don't forget that at the time 20K player on line was a high number.
So in reality warp to 15 Km was operative for: noobs, people without the isk to buy the insta for multiple regions, people that hadn't before in that region, people that hadn't the time to do insta for whole regions.
Essentially WTZ was in effect for 90% of the player with more than a few weeks of experience living low sec and 0.0.
So there is not a "golden age" age to return to.
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Scott Ryder
Amarr art of eve Gunmen of the Apocalypse
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Posted - 2010.07.08 06:37:00 -
[24]
Not supported! :)
It would make logistics and taking space hell.
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.07.08 06:47:00 -
[25]
Cool, I wouldn't get bombed so easily in a BS fleet Oh wait...
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Yakumo Smith
Gallente No End To Infinity Fleetingly Finite
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Posted - 2010.07.08 09:10:00 -
[26]
Not supported.
Would kill off any remaining hopes of roaming pvp gangs. Most of 0.0 is empty so having more time to "engage with locals" is a moot point.
I suppose this must be my sig. I'll do something cool with it eventually. |
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