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Merdaneth
Amarr Angel Wing.
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Posted - 2010.07.09 15:32:00 -
[31]
Pirates cannot 'properly' flourish because of the way EVE handles criminals:
Only two types of punishment: loss of ship, loss of sec status A 100% arrest and conviction rate
The loss of ship is determined by the criminal, and the loss of sec status is predetermined. Everyone that commits a 'crime' knows exactly what is going to happen to him. With predetermined punishment and 100% conviction rate, any premeditated crime should not occur unless the punishment is too low.
It is like the police destroying your getaway car when you rob a bank. If you know the car is cheaper than the booty from the bank, then of course everyone is going to rob banks with their cheap cars.
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The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.09 15:38:00 -
[32]
Accepting the fact that you are going to get blown up does not mean there is no risk. It means the OP is a dumbass.
I accept the fact that I'm going to lose 150m worth of Dramiel when i shoot a cruiser in a belt. does it always happen? no. is he going to be a bait? maybe. will he fight? maybe. either way, i'm already fully committed win or lose, and thats risk.
If you're too stupid to understand that everytime you undock you consent to pvp, then you should go back to wow. i actually fly amarr |
Hestia Mar
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Posted - 2010.07.09 15:38:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 15:42:27
Originally by: Argus Kell As always this is all just nonsense with an OP who won't discuss their ideas but will just argue for them. Eve Online has always been described as PVP game by the developers. Even in the respect of market PVP.
Realism isn't always best. Would you like it if your crew ditched you mid-mission because they were convinced it were suicide?
I don't see the need for any of the OP's ideas, even in regard to suicide ganking and to say that Eve Online isn't a PVP game is ridiculous.
I said I wasn't going to post again, but this just takes the biscuit - "Would you like it if your crew ditched you mid-mission because they were convinced it were suicide?" - hoorah, someone has finally hit the nail on the head - that was my whole point, because thats what would happen...
My OP was not that there should be no pvp or Pirates, but simply that if you're no good at it, you won't get a crew.
As for EVE being a pvp game - maybe that was the intention, but of the 25000 or so players online now, how many are in high sec doing carebear stuff - 20,000? I'm happy with the way things are, so if I choose to go into low-sec I know what could happen to me. As someone said earlier, there is no 'my Eve' there is only Eve. Fair enough. But for the particiapnts in Hulkageddon to to gank some noob who is in his first mining cruiser, just 'cos they can, without any consquences, is riduclous; their suicude is not a consequnce because they don't lose anything whereas the noob miner might lose just about everything.
There was a post in a forum earlier this week from a 5-day player wanting to know how to fit a gank ship for Hulkageddon - but would he do that if he knew that he probably wouldn't be able to fly another ship for a week or so? No - he's doing it because there no consequences for him
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Sun'Tzu Yin
Gallente Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
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Posted - 2010.07.09 16:39:00 -
[34]
There was a post in a forum earlier this week from a 5-day player wanting to know how to fit a gank ship for Hulkageddon - but would he do that if he knew that he probably wouldn't be able to fly another ship for a week or so? No - he's doing it because there [are not enough consequences to satisfy me]
There, fixed that one for ya, no charge this time.
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War Kitten
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Posted - 2010.07.09 16:53:00 -
[35]
Edited by: War Kitten on 09/07/2010 16:54:08
Originally by: Hestia Mar ... I'm happy with the way things are, so if I choose to go into low-sec I know what could happen to me.
/thread |
Merdaneth
Amarr Angel Wing.
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Posted - 2010.07.09 17:22:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ghaylenty I accept the fact that I'm going to lose 150m worth of Dramiel when i shoot a cruiser in a belt. does it always happen? no. is he going to be a bait? maybe. will he fight? maybe. either way, i'm already fully committed win or lose, and thats risk.
You do realize of course that 'Dramiel' and 'fully comitted' are the two words that go least together when talking about EVE PvP. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Absent Cloaker
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:02:00 -
[37]
First, please don't say hoorah, only marines use that and you whine to much to be a marine.
The sandbox feel of Eve is perfect, it allows all types of events to take place. One of my favorite being hulkageddon, I'm not a industrialist or am I going and suicide ganking them. But the idea that this type of event can and has occurred is what attracts me to eve. I do have many contacts in game that are industrial/mining pilots, and you know what they do during hulkageddon...mission. That's right they keep informed and actually counter the fact that the pirates broadcast the dates of the event on open forums.
In Eve it is important to stay informed, this is even more important than skills or the ship you fly. When I look for pilots to pvp with, I look for the ones who try to stay informed and are observant of there surroundings, I really don't care if they fly a Vigil or a Nyx.
I'm glad you would like to see a change, and have proposed one that you believe is reasonable, the fact that you can do this is a testament to Eve's strength. I would personally not approve of your idea for the simple reason that the 'crew' is there to maintain the ship, and when you go out to suicide gank, like scuttling a ship, you evacuate the crew.
AC |
Bulllrock
Heroes.
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:51:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Absent Cloaker First, please don't say hoorah, only marines use that and you whine to much to be a marine.
Swing and a miss mate. Marines say "Oorah," not hoorah. Hoorah is something little kids say when they get a new bike.
The whole crew idea could be interesting, but it would never work out. Punishing people for losing ships, on top of the x isk lost and possibly their pod with expensive implants? Welcome to WoW v2.
Now, if you were to say, only people in highsec criminally engaging somebody would lose that standing attribute, then possibly it could work out.
But you just said, "people who lose a ship," more or less, so yeah, that'll never fly.
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Holby City
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Posted - 2010.07.10 16:59:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Hestia Mar Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 15:42:27
Originally by: Argus Kell Realism isn't always best. Would you like it if your crew ditched you mid-mission because they were convinced it were suicide?
I said I wasn't going to post again, but this just takes the biscuit - "Would you like it if your crew ditched you mid-mission because they were convinced it were suicide?" - hoorah, someone has finally hit the nail on the head - that was my whole point, because thats what would happen...
You've missed my point. I didn't say "because it is suicide", I said "Because they think it is suicide". You could be on a mission, or even be the target of a suicide gank and all these self-aware crew members ditch you and leave you to die when you may have had a fighting chance. There is no real need for your idea and if you were to implement it where would the little guys' free will end?
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Danny Lonnegan
Caldari Nex Somes Ubertas Venator Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.07.10 19:50:00 -
[40]
Even if I thought suicide ganking was bad, completely breaking PVP to prevent it is stupid. Everyone who PVPs loses ships; it's inevitable. OP is suggesting that anyone who does it--whether pirating, or roaming in a small gang, or doing Red vs. Blue, or fighting in a big alliance war--eventually loses the ability to play the game at all. It wouldn't even just affect PVPers--wormhole carebears die all the time; this system would punish them, too.
Really, this idea isn't anything besides a thinly-veiled suggestion to turn EVE into a PVE game. You can't even voluntarily PVP under this system. You may as well come right out and say CCP should implement PVP flags, or split the server into PVP and PVE shards, because that's actually a less terrible idea than this one.
Honestly, I have no idea why people sign up for a PVP game and then insist it ought to be turned into WOW in Spaaaaaace!.
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omgevenmoarfreemoniez
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Posted - 2010.07.10 21:54:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Orimei What you have to 'get' is that there isn't your Eve and my Eve. There is only one Eve.
Originally by: Orimei What you have to 'get' is that there isn't your Eve and my Eve. There is only my Eve.
Originally by: Orimei What you have to 'get' is that your opinion is false, and mine is true, STFU!
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Alara IonStorm
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Posted - 2010.07.10 22:12:00 -
[42]
I agree with the Op you could not get people to just suicide themselves how would that eve work.
Alara> So your Dirt poor and your entire family is starving is that correct. Crewman Bob> Yes I am poor and my family will die soon, I will do anyhting. Alara> 5000ISK will feed them all for the rest of there life but you will die. Ganker Bob> I guess I have no choice. Alara> Welcome to the team Breakrooms on the third deck, Human Resources is in the airlock
I mean sure if your some kinda monster but everyone in eve will have too large a moral centre for this.
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Orimei
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Posted - 2010.07.11 01:00:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Orimei on 11/07/2010 01:02:32
Originally by: omgevenmoarfreemoniez
Originally by: Orimei What you have to 'get' is that there isn't your Eve and my Eve. There is only one Eve.
Originally by: Orimei What you have to 'get' is that there isn't your Eve and my Eve. There is only my Eve.
Originally by: Orimei What you have to 'get' is that your opinion is false, and mine is true, STFU!
Well, I happen to play this game called Eve where I can shot anyone, anywhere. It's in the game mechanics. Care to explain how you think the game mechanics are only there in my opinion?
Actually I think you are right, all this PvP was just a figment of my imagination. Sorry for the inconveniance.
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Zemkhoff
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Posted - 2010.07.11 07:33:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Holby City
Originally by: Hestia Mar Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 15:42:27
Originally by: Argus Kell Realism isn't always best. Would you like it if your crew ditched you mid-mission because they were convinced it were suicide?
I said I wasn't going to post again, but this just takes the biscuit - "Would you like it if your crew ditched you mid-mission because they were convinced it were suicide?" - hoorah, someone has finally hit the nail on the head - that was my whole point, because thats what would happen...
You've missed my point. I didn't say "because it is suicide", I said "Because they think it is suicide". You could be on a mission, or even be the target of a suicide gank and all these self-aware crew members ditch you and leave you to die when you may have had a fighting chance. There is no real need for your idea and if you were to implement it where would the little guys' free will end?
How likely would it have been that counterstrike would become a game where people competitively play for money if valve had decided that the guns should randomly jam for the sake of realism? Or if was one-shot one-kill regardless of weapon or bodypart? Or if there was no spamming through walls?
Realism in trivial video games is usually stupid. And boring.
All those nice videos of people in curses or other FOTM-solopwnmobiles killing multiple people? Say goodbye to those.
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Clytamnestra
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.07.11 09:57:00 -
[45]
Creating simulations to emulate aspects of the real world, is not game design.
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Rocktown
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Posted - 2010.07.11 14:17:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Hestia Mar Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 11:12:34 POD = just you Frigate = Small crew Cruiser = More Crew BC = Larger crew BS = Thousands of crew Dread = 10s of thousands of crew Titan = 100s of thousands of crew
BTW I've not been killed or anything, its just an idea I've had for a while - but suicide ganking hulks isn't pvp, because pvp infers consent from both sides
pvp=player versus player. You don't have to consent for me to violence your boat.
The argument that blowing up a hulk in highsec isn't pvp is a weak one. |
Vee Raa
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.07.11 15:53:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Hestia Mar .. realism ...
You asked for it, the engineering crews are deactivating your warp drives right now.
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Dirlewanger
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:22:00 -
[48]
Actually, having ship crews as BONUS (not penalty) that you must pay a salary to and which grow in skill (and exponentially in price) would be fun.
Have "patriot" ones for FW, better than average and cheaper, but take them to 0.0 and they **** off.
Have pirate ones that bail ship if you don't kill players
Merc ones that are in it only for the money and cost a lot
etc etc.
Think of them as mods with manias. Levels 1 to 5, with the best giving say 5% to damage and tracking for example. Others better repair, tank, target locking, whatever - just small increments though.
Would be a pretty decent money sink too.
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Absolom Hues
Gallente Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:32:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Absolom Hues on 12/07/2010 18:32:39
Originally by: Dirlewanger Actually, having ship crews as BONUS (not penalty) that you must pay a salary to and which grow in skill (and exponentially in price) would be fun.
Have "patriot" ones for FW, better than average and cheaper, but take them to 0.0 and they **** off.
Have pirate ones that bail ship if you don't kill players
Merc ones that are in it only for the money and cost a lot
etc etc.
Think of them as mods with manias. Levels 1 to 5, with the best giving say 5% to damage and tracking for example. Others better repair, tank, target locking, whatever - just small increments though.
Would be a pretty decent money sink too.
Ya... you could also have Fanatic Crews that could be used for Suicide ganks: "For the Cause!....." "Boom" _______ Originally by: "Andracin" "you must realize the truth...there is no ship...then you will find that it is not the ship you fly that sucks...it is yourself..."
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Gligan
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:32:00 -
[50]
actually if you read the stories posted on the site you'll know that the whole reason of the pod is that 1 person can command the whole ship. There's still ships with crew,however capsuleers ships are 1 man 1 ship. That's why in the intro movie they tell you you're a demi god.
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Radcjk
Failed Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:39:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Hestia Mar Ok picture the scene - the pirate capsuleers is in his ship and makes an announcment to the ships crew..."AARRR you scurvy dogs... we are going to carry out a suicide gank on that hulk over there. We'll get concorded in about 20 seconds, but don't worry, I'll be in my next ship doing it again in a few minutes. Oh, did I mention its a suicide attack...that will be your suicide, not mine, because I have clones. Enjoy the afterlife. Thank You"
As anyone who knows anything about RL pirates would know, they are inherently democratic, though cowardly, institutions; democratic because the crew would vote on what to do (the captain could suggest not order), and get rid of the captain (usually through the combination of a sharp knife and the captains throat) if he didn't do what the crew wanted to do - and cowardly because if there was any real risk they would run away.
EVE pirates often post that risk = reward, but where is the risk for a pirate in Eve? There is none, because he accepts that he is likely to lose his ship, or deliberately loses it.
So how to address that issue in Eve? Simple - implement a 'reputation standing'; the more ships a captain loses (not just pirates, but any player) the harder it becomes to recruit a crew and therefore fly a ship.
I would also like to suggest that a new skill is set up, that of crew training, which could affect offensive, and defensive levels, plus flight skills. The crew training skill could be linked to the chracters' standings so tha that the higher your standings, the quicker a crew trains (which is what would happen in RL).
OK, I'm off to find a tin hat and a trench to hide in...
Piracy is an act that has occurred as long as man has had boats. They all didn't operate the same way and captains typically had their own enforcers or means of preventing said mutinies as well.
Also, PvP is, by definition, Player vs. Player. Consent is not implied nor stated.
Originally by: Kimet Ethonise Anyone doubting that frigates have crews should go read the Mission Description for Worlds Collide.
That's also a non capsule vessel.
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Cattegirn
Rampant SR
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:52:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Syekuda Edited by: Syekuda on 09/07/2010 13:33:34 If you read this story (yes reading as in letters from A to Z) among many others, your single pod controls the whole ship. No crew needed afaik. I didn't read all the stories but from what I know, your pod can control everything. So your crew idea doesn't make any sense. But it's a good idea to have other bonuses since it would make sense.
That's the correct version. While a pod controlled ship *can* have crew, the pod pilot replaced traditional crews by removing the human factors of space travel from the equation. (i.e., sickness, life support, etc.)
Also why, theoretically, the NPC ships perform much worse than the capsule-based equivalent hull.
Eve has a pretty weak storyline, with the novel being only connected to the game in theme, and the rest being mere justifications (albeit creative) for game design. |
RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:34:00 -
[53]
its a suicide ship, shouldn't even need a crew!
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Launcelot Vigee
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:21:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Orimei + I'm pretty that all this "Pirates in the 1700's were shipbound democrates" nonsense we hear about is revisionist history fueled by the romanticizing of Pirates in popular culture. If anything I can see an environment as in other lawless societies (gangs etc.) with the captain the gangleader, alpha male or however you want to call it. Pretty sure Blackbeard for instance did convince his crew that he was the devil himself.
Hello. First post. Actually, it was true that pirate vessels were run as 'democracies', but not in the sense of the standard liberal democracy that we are used to. Leaders were 'elected' largely by consent, as more or less a vote of confidence in their abilities to (1) find the marks, as piracy was and is an economic venture, and (2) keep themselves alive, as a dead pirate has no way to spend his money. Edward Thatch was no doubt one bad, bad man, but even he required the consent of his men, lest he be a captain without a crew, as there would be nothing to stop them from walking away the next time they were ashore.
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Dotard
Minmatar Com-Star SOLARIS - SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2010.07.13 10:39:00 -
[55]
Constant antipie blobsquads in any lowsec sound risky enough to me. Every second target is bait. And if it's not, it's usually not worth it.
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yani dumyat
Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.13 11:29:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Dirlewanger
mods with manias.
Actually quite a good idea ^^
It doesn't take much imagination to fight the gankers, last year I bagged myself a faction fit CNR thanks to kill rights. This year my alt will be mining in the busiest belts with a neon 'kill me' sign above his head.
If you really want CCP to do something about suicide ganking then introduce a working bounty system. _______
Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel. |
Dotard
Minmatar Com-Star SOLARIS - SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2010.07.13 11:47:00 -
[57]
Originally by: yani dumyat If you really want CCP to do something about suicide ganking then introduce a working bounty system.[/quote
This actually seems like a good and simple enough idea.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.14 12:10:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Hestia Mar
Originally by: Jones Bones
Originally by: Hestia Mar but suicide ganking hulks isn't pvp, because pvp infers consent from both sides
lolwut?
You don't "get" EVE.
Well, I might not 'get' your EVE, but I'm not playing your Eve, I'm playing mine.
He's right, you don't get EVE at all.
Besides, it isn't yours, it's CCP's EVE. To add, you consent to space based ship PVP when click on undock whether you like it or not.
HTFU.
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Eskaron
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.20 07:41:00 -
[59]
from my opinion the only problem about pirates is that there are no (or very very few) pirates. A pirate should ransom not just shoot everything.
98% of the so called pirates i met are genrating theyr isk through mission runner or trade alts and just blow a bit of isk in low and nullsec while calling themself pirates. But never do ransoms. Another reason is that nobody wants to pay ransoms. i tried it multiple times to offer ransoms but nobody wants to pay.
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.07.20 13:28:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Eskaron 98% of the so called pirates i met are genrating theyr isk through mission runner or trade alts and just blow a bit of isk in low and nullsec while calling themself pirates. But never do ransoms.
My ebil pie rat alt character ransoms every chance she gets. Here's the problem, though: Very few people will pay ransoms, which means you need to blow their ship up in order to get anything of value. Then you run into the problem that it takes a LOT of successes to cover the costs of just one loss.
I try to keep my character as independent as possible using only loot/ransoms for income, but it difficult to break even much less make a decent profit. Taking insurance into account, flying T2 ships is a true luxury when you have this kind of play style.
Of course you can always take an ultra-conservative stance on target selection, which is what I used to do, but then I ended up not getting into any combat at all and that gets boring after a while. Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
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