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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.27 20:57:00 -
[1]
Someone in the corp channel was saying that on test, the ammo capacity of all projectile weapons is being reduced to 25% of their current capacity. Can anyone verify this before I wake up my pet dragon for a little dev BBQ?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Hippey
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Posted - 2003.06.27 21:18:00 -
[2]
It's true. Though a disadvantage that projectile were always supposed to have was low ammo, I fear a 1/3rd of the current ammo would suffice, rather then 1/4th, but we'll see.
One thing is for sure, projectle people will finally have to reload in combat.
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If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Fritz Ionar
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Posted - 2003.06.27 21:22:00 -
[3]
I allready have to reload in combat... Atleast if I'm up against more than 3 easy angels. The standard gunns realy don't have much ammo capacity and everybody doesn't hav all the lootable gunns with ³ber ammoholds...
Oh well, I can allways switch to lasers.
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The services YOU need, WE provide! |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.27 21:42:00 -
[4]
Okay time to wake up Fluffy, my pet dragon :p
Seriously, now I've always considered projectiles to be weaker in punching power which was made up for by the lack of cap usage. The 'not needing to reload' issue only begins to happen with the loot weapons and higher skill an experienced player earns. Same way experienced users of other weapon types earn equipment and skills that make their weapons barely sip at their cap.
With my current skills and using dual 150mm scouts, I'll be spending 1/6th my combat time reloading my weapons (50 seconds of firing, 10 seconds of reloading). On faster firing, short range weapons (like the dual 135mm Scout Autocannons), that time increases to 1/5th. Anyone with a 200mm Autocannon will be completely pooched, spending 1/2 their combat time reloading their weapon. And the more skilled I become, the more I'm penalized for doing so (Rapid Fire, Gunnery and equipment improvements spending ammo faster without reducing reloading time).
Toss in the ammo range modifiers and we have a very ugly situation approaching: projectile users in the middle of angel swarms (range penalty) spending large amounts of time reloading.
Edited by: Jash Illian on 27/06/2003 21:43:45
Edited by: Jash Illian on 27/06/2003 21:45:42
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.06.27 21:51:00 -
[5]
pooor, pooor 280mm howitzers.
beyond doubt the crappiest weapon in the game already, now they will have 2.5 ammo as well.
Typical ccp though. Whenever something needs a bit of adjusting, they do it with a sledgehammer.
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Muaddid
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Posted - 2003.06.27 21:55:00 -
[6]
guess we need an ammo reloading skill :P
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Jor'kal Malset
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Posted - 2003.06.27 22:06:00 -
[7]
Dont have to reload? lemme just say, that if I am up against 3 or more mobs, I have to reload at least once, often twice during a fight, especially if the opponent is worth its salt. also, I thought one of the penalties for having a proj. weapon was that you had to keep buying ammo...about 10% of my bounty money goes to ammo alone, not including missles.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.27 22:15:00 -
[8]
<< Dont have to reload? lemme just say, that if I am up against 3 or more mobs, I have to reload at least once, often twice during a fight, especially if the opponent is worth its salt. >>
I think someone is looking at the extreme end of things and placing a nerf across the board. The extreme end being most projectile weapons with the word "Scout" on the label. Projectile weapons need to be balanced individually according to their attributes. Across the board nerfs rarely work well.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Endureth
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Posted - 2003.06.27 22:44:00 -
[9]
What would be nice is a weapon upgrade (external storage) which would allow the ship to carry about 10% more ammo per module. I've said this once before but it feel down the list here on the boards.
Any little bit of content that can be added to the game is great.
-E
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Balsak
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Posted - 2003.06.28 05:23:00 -
[10]
This is regarding pirate versions. It doesn't affect normal market versions of the guns.
Easy there lynch mob
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Demangel
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Posted - 2003.06.28 08:53:00 -
[11]
You also have to consider The damage boosters...
Projectile weapons use little if any cap, and have super low fitting requirements.
It's super easy to plug all your low slots with damage boosting modules and actually OUTDAMAGE a hybrid period.
Add to that fact that you can mount more projectile guns because of the fitting requirements and simply put, your ship is fine with a 1/4 damage reduction.
Also keep in mind that the most common booster drop for some time where gyrostabilizers.
My friend has his entire low slot compartment full of gyros, and has his dual 450MM (I think thats what he uses), boosted to 8.0X damage!!! (though that also counts a few skills he has, thats easy to get anyway)
Point is, the best I can do in a similar level combat cruiser with my hybrid is maybe 6X damage without power diags, and CPU co procs...
So that also means I have to give up other valuable slots to equal his damage, PLUS he can fit stuff in his other valuable slots I cannot.
I remember clearly when a rifter could do 250 Damage every cycle of his guns with 3 250MM arties...
In the same amount of time in my tristan if I was lucky enough to be in the right ranges, the best I could do was about 150... Irregardless of loadout. Meaning he pretty much always would win, even with my higher defensive stats.
In 3-5 cycles of his main guns he could pretty much have my tristan on fire and spinning out of control, but in the same amount of time I would have barely taken down his shields...
In a reverse situation I could do the same to him.
Furthermore, even though now the stacking has been "somewhat" fixed, if you ask me it's still imperfect. Damage boosters should NEVER stack... not unless they ALL have the same fitting requirements at least...
But right now your a fool if you even try to boost your rail guns with more than one booster because you'll be wasting more fitting potential for the same bonus.
Simply put the main imbalance behind the guns lies more in the damage boosters than anything else if you ask me... But I doubt CCP will do anything more about it.
Instead they will nerf the bejesus out of the ammo cap of projectile guns... which yes, does hurt the higher up characters with phat loot newb slayer cannons of doom... but it REALLY hurts standard projectile users more than anything potentialy causing an even greater rift.
Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you
Demangel > Dude... I would call..
Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet.
Galaxion > Just a bit.
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Alessa
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Posted - 2003.06.28 10:17:00 -
[12]
Hmmm, to me that sounds like someone who removes the spoiler from his broken car. Later on, he might repair his car and actually miss his spoiler. ;-)
Or transferred to Eve:
Wouldn't it be wiser to fix the range modifiers from ammo first and do the next step then ?
Anyway, lasers seem to become more interesting, or a mix of weapons. But reloading 4 guns on my cruiser all the time doesn't sound like fun.
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Achmed Twenty
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Posted - 2003.06.28 11:31:00 -
[13]
i realy wont mind if those gusn would have a autoreload feature.
its pain in the ass currently when u fight a bunch of cruisers, beeing busy with launching msratbombs and fireing rockets and loading up schields, when u finaly notice that ur stupid guns r not shooting NE more.
then the 10 sec wait time ... ok, bump on the wait time cause it woudl be a bit to easy else. but autorealod is realy wanted.
i need it more then the autopilot.
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Aerin Osaa
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Posted - 2003.06.28 14:09:00 -
[14]
and add to that the occasional reload glitches because it can't find cargo space or something, and the fact that the high slots aren't visible at the same time as the medium slots will make combat with projectiles almost impossible. Even if they increase the load time to 12 seconds or something to compensate, auto reload is vital!
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.28 18:08:00 -
[15]
<< You also have to consider The damage boosters... >>
I do consider the damage boosters. Not everyone has them daisychained around their low slot. There's not a singele gyro on my rifter (though I have about 8 in hangars).
The guns need to be balanced individually. That's after the effects of the ammo range mods work properly. And that's AFTER surgical strike works properly. Both of those have deciding effects on the amount of damage a person using projectiles inflicts. Surgical Strike especially (even I have Surgical Strike trained to level 2 atm).
Once that's done and real observation is done (not just the people on the test server) then CCP needs to balance the weapons accordingly. This across the board nerf makes close combat projectiles a liability as they often eat ammo like pez and will be spending a lot more time reloading.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
lickspittle
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Posted - 2003.06.30 09:25:00 -
[16]
Something else to keep in mind. The weapon range modifier on projectile and hybrid ammo will finally be used - possibly in this upcoming patch. I have checked in the code changes in any case.
Frequency crystals are next on my list.
Edited by: lickspittle on 30/06/2003 09:26:37
-- Richard
CCP Programmer. Anything said above is not the official line, but my own take or opinion. |
Shintai
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Posted - 2003.06.30 09:55:00 -
[17]
If this means crystals skips this patch then:
Thx for letting lasers own the game for the weeks till next patch. And thx for reminding the last hybrids users that they are idiots using it, including myself.
So only use lasers till next patch, after that projectiles. And hybrids, well..no.
Edited by: Shintai on 30/06/2003 09:59:33
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.06.30 10:15:00 -
[18]
I aggree - WHEN you do this then please for all Weapon types at the same time (at least for Tranquility).
Better bring all a patch later then some now and the rest later - that could damage the already not-so-well gameplay even more.
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Falhofnir
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Posted - 2003.06.30 10:38:00 -
[19]
yep, letting the lasers > * until next patch is nonsense (and i'm a happy heavy beams user ...)
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Cara 'Than
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Posted - 2003.06.30 10:57:00 -
[20]
Well I guess from now on I will have lasers ripping me apart instead of projectiles. Thats a change for sure.
Man why can't u balance ALL weapons at the SAME time???
Test it on chaos. THEN put it into action in tranquility.
I see no sence in beeing Beta Tester on Tranquility....
__________________
"Fear leads to Anger. Anger leads to Hate. Hate leads to suffering." |
Busko
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Posted - 2003.06.30 11:02:00 -
[21]
Have to say i hate this nerfing more and more.
What ever seems to be good is nerfed down in the next patch.
I thought that the beta was to balance the stuff. But all i saw there was stuff made more power full.
If you guys think the guns do to much damage change the ship armor and hull 10 secs battles sucks.
also wondering some one said somethings wrong with surgical strike what was that.
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Ducken
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Posted - 2003.06.30 11:45:00 -
[22]
Yes the fiddling with attributes has to stop! CCP don't you see what your doing to your own game? Your turning it into "quest for the weapon of the week", taking the focus of bussines, trade and manufacturing.
I think we, the paying customers, are entitled to a professional and fair administration and development of the game. As far as I can tell from your actions thus far it seems you lack any form of development roadmap. And I think I speak for the majority of the players when I say that being on the recieving end of all this thinkering with the attributes isn't funny at all.
I am probably not the only one who am growing tired of spending 15 minutes after each DT just to check all equipment attributes for nerfing.
Yes the game is unbalanced, the battles are Quake:ish at best and learning all the bugs takes longer then reading the manual, but we love this game! Please please please CCP treat us with the same respect and understanding that we have shown you!
Edited by: Ducken on 30/06/2003 11:48:52
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Pran Thea
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Posted - 2003.06.30 11:59:00 -
[23]
@ Busko
Surgical Strike currently adds 3% to the damage bonus of EVERY DAMAGE MODIFIER. Both through your own skills and through add-ons. So if your ship skills add 5% damage per level, it is now 8% damage per level PLUS each peice of equipment that you have fitted that added 5% damage now adds 8%, etc etc etc.
The change is (I believe) to limit this to an overall total 3% damage increase per level of Surgical Strike. OK, this is still 15% damage add for level 5, but at least it is not 15% damage add for every single piece of damage modifying equipment on your ship!
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The only good slave is an ex-slave trader. |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.06.30 12:02:00 -
[24]
Surgical strike won't affect modules after the patch. AFAIK it will add (1.03^level) to the "final" damage mod after everything else such as other skills, lowslot items etc. |
lickspittle
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Posted - 2003.06.30 13:03:00 -
[25]
Just to clarify, the frequency crystals modifying the range of their weapons will also be coming in, in the same patch.
-- Richard
CCP Programmer. Anything said above is not the official line, but my own take or opinion. |
Busko Moonwalker
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Posted - 2003.06.30 13:32:00 -
[26]
Thanx for the info,
I dident see such a big diff in damage tho all i saw was that my guns damag mod incressed.
with about 0,3 for each lev.
If you say that ever lev would give extra on each bonuse then i belive i would do much greater damage.
Have 3 in med hybrid using 250mm C rail and 1 basic magnet+ that gave me around 4,8X in damage with lev 3 surgical i get 5,4X damage.
So in my eyes it looks like its working ok my avg went from 70-80 to 90-100.
But then i havent tryed it at the same kind of ships.
/Busko
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Slave 12
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Posted - 2003.06.30 13:39:00 -
[27]
I just don't understand it. They are trying to nerf the projectiles. That I understand. But shoot its not going to effect the guys that kill you in 5 seconds because they only need to fire 3 shots! The fact that you are nerfing a whole class just shows pure laziness. All you are doing is making a bunch of already useless weapons even more useless. The weapons that need to be dealt w/ seem unaffected by this, and should be dealt w/ by themselves. As some projectile weapons are currently only semi usefull and don't need to be nerfed but will be made totally useless. |
autoexec
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Posted - 2003.06.30 14:06:00 -
[28]
Ok, Everybody use a Maller with 4 Heavy Mods and Radio Crystals. ( don't forget to train controlled bursts to level 3 or more to get stupidly low ammount of cap use without any ammo to worry about ).
Go Go Go!
Anyhow, fear not hybrid and projectile users, with CCP's bug free patch history, it'll probably end up being +60% instead of -60% for AM ammo and 4X for the projectile gun capacity instead of 1/4 :).
--
autoexec.eve
"If your enemy defeats you by deceiving you, you were conquered by your own ignorance" |
Lucian Cole
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Posted - 2003.06.30 14:45:00 -
[29]
Wow, can't you just feel the bittersweet love from people who ***** and moan on the forums at work only to race to the computer and log in when they get home. Admit it you masochists... you love it.
Anyhow In general I have found that projectiles have the most punch out of any weapon in the game thusfar (at least the small variety... just look at the prototype 150mm seige cannons) but isn't the ammo capacity small enough on weapons like the 250mm arty? 20 shots seems like a fairly small amount and 15 is going to be pretty rough. I think an "accross the board" reduction may be a bit harsh. Many projectile weapons seem to already have a nice low capacity for ammo.
--
Lucian Cole |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.06.30 15:00:00 -
[30]
across the board, its so... ccp.
Problem is there are several boards as well.
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Madox
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Posted - 2003.06.30 15:59:00 -
[31]
uh...Lucian...the ammo cap won't be 15. it will be 5. the projectile ammo capacity is being reduced TO 25% of its current. not reduced BY 25%.
ah the wild space of a mmorpg still in beta...
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Demangel
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Posted - 2003.06.30 16:14:00 -
[32]
*sigh* thats all I have left to say on this subject hehehe :)
Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you
Demangel > Dude... I would call..
Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet.
Galaxion > Just a bit.
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DJvGalen
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Posted - 2003.06.30 16:42:00 -
[33]
Range modifiers allready worked on frequency crystals !
I've been using lasers for 2 weeks now and everytime I switched to more powerfull crystals I had to move in closer to hit my targets, I started around 20km using Microwaves and now I need to be around 5-6 km with Multifreq s. First time I started using multifreq was friday and the shorter range also worked last week when i switched to Xray and that Blue crystal.
Please double check this before you double the effect of frequency crystal's range modifier.
Edited by: DJvGalen on 30/06/2003 16:44:21
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CCP please fix your patch so I can play with my corpmates again soon. |
Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.06.30 17:06:00 -
[34]
I keep hitting just fine with multifreq up to my max weapon range of ~39 km.
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Griss
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Posted - 2003.06.30 17:10:00 -
[35]
Ducken
its sort of funny that you say there taking away from the bissness factor of the game. stick with me here. the real economy is driven by whats hot and whats not. so for the savy manufaturer they would go out and buy up a supply of beam weapon bp's. and start building a back stock. and keep watch on the patch forum for whats coming up next. a fue day's before the next patch they liquidate. buy the next hot item's bp. and make a mint off of selling the bp's they have to a market that is a ferver for "the weapon of the week"
its like the fassion world. just with guns, and blowing things up. just my .2 isk
Edited by: Griss on 30/06/2003 17:11:44
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nomad, vagabond, call me what you will. |
Ducken
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Posted - 2003.06.30 18:02:00 -
[36]
Griss,
I see what your driving at. Keep in mind though that patches and fixes are prolly not intended to be a part of the in game economics system.
And yes, while it might be an oppertunity to make money in-game I doubt that it is a bussines venture that will interest all that many players.
But if you rather get your hands on a few ISK then have a game thats worthwhile to play even for John Q Public then please continue on your path.
Myself I rather see 10.000 players rangeing from noob to elite in a universe full of life then 1.000 hard core gamers combing the forums for patch notes to make a buck... But that just me.
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DJvGalen
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Posted - 2003.06.30 19:51:00 -
[37]
39km ? I can't even lock target if it's further than 30km's away.
I was referring to frigate weapons, I do not know about big cruiser or battleship weapons, but on my Tristan each crystal which increased the damage of my lasers also reduced the range and I am 100% sure that those range modifiers work cause I was killing guards with Medium Beam lasers from long range (15km+) with Microwaves and as I upgraded crystals I found myself having to move into the range of their guns to put in hits.
Same laser with multifreq does very little damage at 10km, usually just misses and around 8km I start to put in hits for little damage and at 5km they do maximum damage. So my new tactic is approach and fire missile when target drops under 20km and turn on my lasers when target drops under 10km.
Same thing happened last night, I was protecting the CEO of our corp while he was mining and kept missing when 1 of the guards went after the CEO, had to use my afterburner to get him under 10km before my lasers started hitting him, by that time I had allready used alot of cap and it had to recharge to finish of the 2nd guard.
But if the range modifiers did not work then someone HAS to tell me why my range decreased after swapping crystals, I am dying to know.
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CCP please fix your patch so I can play with my corpmates again soon. |
Lucian Cole
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Posted - 2003.06.30 20:06:00 -
[38]
I don't think the range mod for freq crystals ever worked even for frigates... I still hit fine at the listed optimal range with multifrequency crystals. Just like all other ammo types... no range mods yet.
And yeah, I definitely misread that... cutting them down TO 25% capacity just seems down right rediculous and a pain in the arse. It will balance them a bit though I think still... As it stands now their DPS is pretty high, high enough for some people to fit them onto hybrid optimized ships like the merlin because they dish out damage a lot faster. At that rate you'll barely be able to take out a single target without reloading and that's 10 seconds lost right there. If auto-reloading made it in it would probably make things easier, but like that a projectile user now has to watch those guns like a hawk to keep feeding them ammo. I dunno.....
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Lucian Cole |
Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.07.01 00:13:00 -
[39]
It's likely that people shot because of nothing. In one of the first posts someone said that ONLY THE SCOUT PROJECTILES WERE REDUCED TO 25%.
Which have atm 4 times the ammo capacity than normal projectiles. Seems they forgot to modify them to the new ammo size in the last patch.
Can anyone who can log on chaos confirm this?
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