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Looking back : Learning Skills ( 2004 Player Request )

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Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.11 15:33:00 - [1] Originally by: Jasdemi Not the players started this, CCP did. At fanfest '09 they said that learning skills were a mistake and best would be to get rid of them. You're like one of those dolls that you pull the string in their back and they say something. Somebody evidently keeps pulling your string because you keep spouting this all over the place. Like saying it repeatedly somehow makes it true. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.11 16:08:00 - [2] Originally by: Tarasina Edited by: Tarasina on 11/07/2010 15:54:55 Originally by: Guttripper snip snip Pro learning skills - I am biased here since I am one of these people. We state that a new pilot does not, and should not, stay locked in a station training one set of skills over any other, voiding out fun for efficiency. While we have offered compromises, some have gained a bit of traction, but most are passed over since they do not grant the instant gratification of +10 attributes. Many of us are considered "cranky old vets" since we are labeled as rambling about going through that grind, therefore everyone else should follow suit; translated to keeping down new players in fear of them growing up to usurp us. While we want to keep the "cold, harsh universe" of old going, unless we submit and grant new players a silver platter of +10 attributes, they'll leave in droves and this game will die. Of course, there is no justified answer how Eve has expanded with these skills in tow, but I digress. Our radicals state to remove the skills and nothing more - let people crawl through training. What I see as the problem is the fact that "vets" don't seem to like change. While in reality, everything changes, all the time. It's like saying: "When I turned 18, I got a car that went 20 MPH, now theres cars that go 100 MPH, I don't like it. Remove the new cars. You should suffer, as I did." If everyone thought like this, there wouldn't be hospitals of any kind or improvement in any field. Ask any old person about what they think about todays real world. I bet 99% say we have it easy compared to them. I have seen so many of these types of comparisons it makes me want to vomit. Learning skills don't have anything to do with suffering. Where did that term come from in this context? Why are all the newbs now somehow "suffering" from this?! I don't recall it ever seeming like I was suffering at any point while training skills. You know the skills train all the time right? Like even when you're logged out and even when you're asleep? Where's the suffering? You people love to throw that term around. That we veterans want you to suffer like we did. No, that's not it all. We want you to have to do something ( anything ) to earn the right to train at max speed. Why the hell are you entitled to a big fat free bonus? The current proposal to remove the skill from the game and just give everybody a bonus as though they had them trained to max is nothing but a welfare program. To the OP: You see the sense of entitlement that I mentioned clearly at work here. Thanks to Tarasina for coming along so soon to illustrate what I meant about that. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.11 18:49:00 - [3] Originally by: Jasdemi Originally by: Pantload Edited by: Pantload on 11/07/2010 15:40:51 Originally by: Jasdemi Not the players started this, CCP did. At fanfest '09 they said that learning skills were a mistake and best would be to get rid of them. You're like one of those dolls that you pull the string in their back and they say something. Somebody evidently keeps pulling your string because you keep spouting this all over the place. Like saying it repeatedly somehow makes it true. Dude, stop stalking me already. What do you want from me? You follow me in every thread I post. What's wrong with you, ffs? HAHAHA at stalking you. That's quite the high opinion you have of yourself. There you go again assuming there must be something wrong with me. From where I stand it seems like something is wrong with you and I'm perfectly fine. Still doesn't make your first post true. Facts are good. Learn to embrace truth. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.11 19:52:00 - [4] Originally by: Jasdemi My first post is not true? I just posted what CCP said at fanfest '09, how can't it be true? It doesn't matter if they remove the learnings or not (although more speaks that they will). Fact is, CCP triggered this discussion. This makes my first post true, no darling? No, sweet cheeks, of course it doesn't make it true. You have been corrected on your "facts" several times by me and a few other people. You just simply aren't listening. You keep saying that CCP has stated that learnings WILL be removed when in fact they never made any kind of official statement like that. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.12 13:18:00 - [5] Scroll back through this post and go look at the big learning skills threadnaught. Find even one example of Jasdemi contributing anything meaningful to the discussion. Just one. If you do, it won't be any time recent. He's only just trolling at this point. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.12 14:48:00 - [6] Originally by: Jasdemi I appreciate your attention, guys, but you're supposed to discuss about learnings, not about me. Keep your love posts evemail exclusive and don't post it here in the publicity. I'm getting all embarrassed due to your lovely compliments. There aren't/weren't any better suggestions than the +10/+10% and SP back. This is simple the best solution. Not my problem if you don't agree with me, it's MY opinion after all. Oh look who's decided it's time to get back on-topic now. You should be embarrassed but not because anyone has paid you a compliment. There are/were several better suggestions than the +10/+10 rebate welfare government stimulus bonus plan that you are so in love with. You have never acknowledged the existence of any alternate suggestions. I'll give you an example of one and you can then feel free to poo poo on it ( This one has been officially proposed, btw ) Give all new characters Basic Learning skills to a 4 and Advanced Learning skills to a 3. This would give brand new players more than 70% of the full effect of learning skills right away, save them the cost of the advanced books and leave for them the choice later to train the last few levels or don't. You should hate that suggestion despite how rational it is because it won't give you personally anything for free. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.12 19:09:00 - [7] Originally by: Jasdemi Originally by: Xennifer Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:50:36 Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:49:04 facepalm How is this tired argument against learning reform still around? The game is approching a decade old, there's absolutely no reason not to further acellerate the pace at which new accounts can see access to content. It already takes years to fly anything much larger than a cruiser perfectly. Why not cut down the time on that process by a few months? There is a lot more to being an EVE veteran than skill gap. I trained all my learning skills to max on both accounts years ago, but I see absolutely no harm in change to them. That's pretty pathetic, no? The vets even want to make newbies experience even worse as it is at the time. Selfish kids. Jasdemi, you're what? 21 years old right? That's what? About 10 years below the median age in this game? Move out of your parents basement and stop referring to the adults as kids! TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.12 20:02:00 - [8] Originally by: Jasdemi Originally by: Pantload Originally by: Jasdemi Originally by: Xennifer Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:50:36 Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:49:04 facepalm How is this tired argument against learning reform still around? The game is approching a decade old, there's absolutely no reason not to further acellerate the pace at which new accounts can see access to content. It already takes years to fly anything much larger than a cruiser perfectly. Why not cut down the time on that process by a few months? There is a lot more to being an EVE veteran than skill gap. I trained all my learning skills to max on both accounts years ago, but I see absolutely no harm in change to them. That's pretty pathetic, no? The vets even want to make newbies experience even worse as it is at the time. Selfish kids. Jasdemi, you're what? 21 years old right? That's what? About 10 years below the median age in this game? Move out of your parents basement and stop referring to the adults as kids! Crazy stuff, you even discovered how old I am. You're seriously stalking other people on the internet. I'd be worried about myself if I were you. Jokes aside, you shouldn't take internet so seriously. Really, man. Can't you just accept my opinion about the removal of learning skills? Are you really this goofy? Have you looked at your forum signature recently? The image in your sig is a link to some kind of site where you keep track of different MMOs that you play. Your age is clearly listed right there. You put that there! You have got to get a grip on reality. Seriously. There is no stalking going on. Tell you what, I accept your opinion just as much as you accept mine. That's none at all right? Cool. We are on the same page then. Cheers. PL TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.12 21:39:00 - [9] Originally by: Hoxillian Montgomery Anyway, going back to the topic... It is quite clear that the removal of the learning skill are based on speculations built up due to an announcement made by CCP. No formal / official announcement had been made regarding the removal of the said skill. If there is one, then it is not posted on an a official board / website supported by CCP. It is safe to continue training learning skills. Yes on all of that. But please don't feel like you have to take them straight to 5/5/5 and simply sit in a station until that happens. There is a middle path ( no I'm not Buddhist ) 5/4/5 is more than good. Especially if you are already outside your bonus speed training period. And by god get out there and play! Efficiency is a good thing since waste is a bad thing but in the context of a game, some fun can be lost through relentless min/maxing. Really, go out there and have some fun. Do whatever you enjoy. Don't just sit and play spin the ship. You'll get bored. Cheers, PL TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.13 16:17:00 - [10] Edited by: Pantload on 13/07/2010 16:18:00 Originally by: Vexidious Originally by: Pantload Learning skills don't have anything to do with suffering. Riiiight... And that's about where I stopped reading. Why did that statement cause you to stop reading? Too much truth all in one dose for you? Originally by: Star P'ergish Originally by: Jasdemi but reading totally brainless arguments by people who support learning skills is suffering, imo. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Epic reply! TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.13 19:01:00 - [11] Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 13/07/2010 18:36:44 Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Please remain on topic. If you must disagree please do not troll and offer constructive advice. Thread cleaned of trolling remarks. Thanks for cleaning this thread of trolls. However, this topic isn't getting any further, how about you guys at CCP officially state something about this problem? According to everything you've said, this is already set in stone. What would need from them if you've been spouting factual information all along hmm? TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.13 19:22:00 - [12] Originally by: Jasdemi Originally by: Pantload Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 13/07/2010 18:36:44 Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Please remain on topic. If you must disagree please do not troll and offer constructive advice. Thread cleaned of trolling remarks. Thanks for cleaning this thread of trolls. However, this topic isn't getting any further, how about you guys at CCP officially state something about this problem? According to everything you've said, this is already set in stone. What would need from them if you've been spouting factual information all along hmm? Stop trolling already. I've never said that the removal of learnings is set in stone. Sure you did. You stated it as a fact several times. I'll be happy to show you where. As for trolling... You may dismount from your high horse now. The Mods had to clean up after your trolling, as well TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.15 20:20:00 - [13] Originally by: AterraX Originally by: Jasdemi Stop trolling already. I've never said that the removal of learnings is set in stone. So you didn't say that learning skills were being dropped and adviced new players to not train them due to that "fact"? awaits another lie You noticed he edited the hell out of his last post there and took out all the obnoxious trolling crap about how much he loves learning skills and how great they are? If you missed that, I quoted it in the big learnings thread. Also, go look him up on EveBoard. Look through the list of his skills. If I had been playing for 1.5-2 years and had butchered my training that badly and didn't know it ( which he doesn't ) I'd probably be mad at the game too. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.15 21:00:00 - [14] Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 15/07/2010 20:37:42 So much attention. I luv you guys. :) And yeah, to stay on-topic, learnings will be removed. <3 Originally by: Jasdemi I've never said that the removal of learnings is set in stone. So much for that... As always: "CCP has made no kind of official statement regarding the guaranteed removal of learning skills from the game." You keep claiming the imminent removal of learnings as though it is a fact. I have challenged you to at least explore other possibilities and other avenues to compromise and you refuse. You continue trolling, annoying, and rumor-mongering. You've been asked to stop but you are apparently enjoying this too much. Which is fine by me because I'm enjoying this immensely. I'll be more than content to debate this with you ad nauseum. Luckily for me, you're not much of a debater. More like a broken record that keeps skipping and playing the same snippet over and over again. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.15 21:10:00 - [15] Originally by: Zentrie I am still fairly new to this game but I have been reading around the forums to catch up on some of the news and issues of the past and present. As far as the learning skills in Eve go, I was wondering if there was ever a suggestion of changing the skill system entirely. Not ripping it apart and starting over, but changing parts of it slightly to modify the learning aspect to work better for others and start off new accounts in the right direction. Would it be possible for an account in its infancy (30-60 days) to be allowed to train two skills at once. Weather both train at the same speed OR different levels of skills train at different speeds such as 1X will train at 100% - 2X (1st will train at 100% and 2nd will train at 50%) as an example. If the 1x multiplier on learning being classified with too many other skills (which it does share with many) it can be reclassified. OR have learning abilities train at 100% and any and all other abilities train at 25-50% or which ever percent is felt adiquate given the skills. Its a rough draft idea, but it might solve some of the problem with new people joining the game. They are able to train their learning skills while still learning combat skills, even though the combat skills are being learned at a slower pace, it is cutting back their "space station" time considerably. Something like this has been proposed at least a time or two. From what I recall, CCP shot that idea down straightaway as being something difficult, impossible, or undesirable to implement under the current skill system. Probably not a simple thing to code and could include considerable refactoring/rewriting of portions of the skill training system and the skill system interface. Plus the issues of what exact boundaries to place on allowing this sort of thing. Anyway, sorry to say, that one is probably not happening which is a pity because it's not a bad compromise. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here

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