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Cailais
Amarr THE ORDAINED
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Posted - 2010.07.13 08:50:00 -
[31]
I hate these 'Im the prophet of doom' threads where the OP writes an 'open letter' as if they're somehow special amongst the player base.
EVEs subscriber base is growing. There are more players logged on every night compared to when I started. There's more to do in the game itself. The game is predominantly stable and mainly lag free (with the exception of massive fleet battles in null sec) for the majority of players.
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.13 09:20:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Criss AngeI WAIT CCP ACTUALLY WANT TO MAKE PROFITS? NO WAY! CCP IS DEAD TO ME BECAUSE THEY WOULD RATHER A PROFIT FOR THEIR COMPANY OVER MY NEEDS!
This is incredibly short sighted. Obviously a business needs to make money but most people seem to miss the fact that if you are making something that's amazing and stable with an enthused fan base as long as you keep them happy they'll keep playing. Sure add more content but commit to that content and finish it off before releasing it or at the very least make what's out there work properly.
Eve should rely less on new content anyhow as the "end game" content is provided by the PVP 0.0 end of the spectrum and all the metta gaming and politics that are out there.
Originally by: Cailais I hate these 'Im the prophet of doom' threads where the OP writes an 'open letter' as if they're somehow special amongst the player base.
EVEs subscriber base is growing. There are more players logged on every night compared to when I started. There's more to do in the game itself. The game is predominantly stable and mainly lag free (with the exception of massive fleet battles in null sec) for the majority of players.
C.
Non-contextual data is no data at all. What would be usefull is numbers on new accounts being created, old accounts being closed, trial accounts currently active, old accounts being reactivated, people playing on free trials etc.
I mean, if all (or a majority of) the old accounts are still active, plus new paid acounts + a handfull of trial then that's good.
If there are a large number of old accounts being closed + a handful of newer accounts + a huge number of trial accounts, then that'd be bad.
I can't second guess what there is out there but just saying "more people log in now than before" isn't useful data.
On top of that, what size was the game originally aimed at? Becuase sure, there are a few core systems (jita + missions systems) that seem to be stable and reinforced but then the end game content is getting a caning as fleets meet each other.
I've said it before but if people aren't supposed to fight in 400+ vs 400+ fleets then stop advertising "epic fleet battles" and push for small fleet combat.
It's a circular argument anyhow, the empire dwellers will say everything's fine and miss the point of eve while the 0.0 dwellers will suffer from poor performance unless they go around in groups of 10-15.
It'd be nice if a dev or even some lord on high at CCP replied here but I see it just tumbling into the usual flame vs flame post as empire dwellers cry "we so do get the point in eve, pvp's not for everyone" and the 0.0 guys spit back "why play a pvp game if you don't want to pvp?" --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.13 09:24:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Marko Riva on 13/07/2010 09:25:28 OP makes 100% sense. "Oh god we need to GROW, DON'T LOOK BACK" is a typical manager's viewpoint; short term and ultimately damaging for the product. Kick out the managers, bring back the people with vision and the dare to excel.
----------- Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service |
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2010.07.13 09:29:00 -
[34]
Creative "EVE is dying"-post.
I think CCP will read this and deeply care.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.07.13 09:32:00 -
[35]
I agree things do overall work. Things do need expanding. New players are needed. PLEX are fine for the most part.
Personally my main beef is that I enjoy half-finished content which had a massive hype. This expansion was stripped of devs and has had no further fixes specifically to it's game-play.
My fear is all of the coming content will suffer the same fate unless CCP tightens up.
Shouldn't each new expansion retain a Product Owner for a period of time after launch?
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DeBingJos
Minmatar Between the lines
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Posted - 2010.07.13 09:49:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Marko Riva Edited by: Marko Riva on 13/07/2010 09:25:28 OP makes 100% sense. "Oh god we need to GROW, DON'T LOOK BACK" is a typical manager's viewpoint; short term and ultimately damaging for the product. Kick out the managers, bring back the people with vision and the dare to excel.
^^ This
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.13 11:35:00 -
[37]
Originally by: ChrisIsherwood
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
* Is PLEX killing Eve? I personally still pay for subscriptions but I imagine there are a great many who play with PLEX. Does this mean your company is forced to chase new subscribers via hyped expansions to gain cash-flow? Can you not survive for any period of time on existing recurring subscribers with low churn numbers? Is this why we're seeing less in working code and more in shinny hype?
If you are able to survive on existing customers then I'm sure you could reduce churn a great deal by focusing a development cycle on fixes rather then hype, massively articles and promotional videos.
I found the minutes disappointing and am not disagreeing with you on much, but I think you may want to run the numbers, The EVE portion of CCP is a subscription business. 350k people with average subscriptiom of 7 months IIRC, means one person leaves every minute. 50,000 a month. Complete WAG, but say that means that CCP needs 300,000 people a month to sign up for a trial account in order to convert that into 50k subscribers. Considering that AB announced that 70% of W*W characters don't reach level 10, and everyone said that is still much higher than the competition, and EVE players and developers want EVE to be much, much less novice friendly than W*W, then CCP may need at least 500,000 people to sign up for a trial account every month. Every Month. So maybe a million people a month click through a Google Ad. Which means tens of million ads served up every month. ... Yeah, I think CCP needs lots of new players to replace the churn. Companies that get an extra $20 or $50 per expansion don't have it quite as bad. While a bad long term decision, getting a few extra per cent of people to sign up and pay is more short-term revenue than retaining a considerable % of highest-end players.
From Allice In Wonderland: "A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
Nice analysis. What it says to me is that CCP urgently - desperately - need to slow the torrent of players leaving the game.
If every long term player that leaves requires 7 or 10 new players to replace, then CCP need to value their long term customers 7-10 times more. Especially since long term players tend to run multiple accounts, making them even more valuable.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.13 12:20:00 -
[38]
Originally by: DeBingJos
Originally by: Marko Riva Edited by: Marko Riva on 13/07/2010 09:25:28 OP makes 100% sense. "Oh god we need to GROW, DON'T LOOK BACK" is a typical manager's viewpoint; short term and ultimately damaging for the product. Kick out the managers, bring back the people with vision and the dare to excel.
^^ This
the decision makers / managers in ccp today actually are the "visionary devs" from the past. the ceo even wrote the first incarnation of the eve client. the root of the problem is that people over time loose interest when they work on the same matter too long. then they get married and get children they need to take care of. |
PotatoOverdose
Caldari Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2010.07.13 12:38:00 -
[39]
Isn't Dust being developed by a completely different studio in Hon Kong? Wouldn't that imply that their are two teams of devs, one for eve and the "upcoming" incarna expansion, and one for ccp's attempt to break into the console shooter market? Isn't the team working on eve today more or less the same team that has been working on eve since launch? Could you not then argue that in fact the Eve team's resources were never really divided, and that the team working on Dust in Hon Kong is independent of but owned by ccp with it's own resources?
I think, though I am not completely sure, that the answer to all of the above questions is 'yes'.
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Andreya
Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.13 12:55:00 -
[40]
/signed There is too much opposition in the FPS Console market. Very high risk, very high reward. the odds arent stacked in CCPs favor tho. New FPS's often get drowned out by the other pre existing big names. If anything, they would have better luck making a strategy game or something. _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
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Monkey Saturday
Unknown Soldiers The Spire Collective
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Posted - 2010.07.13 13:44:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Karak Terrel Fixing bugs and inventing new content are two separate things. They work on both and do a great job in my opinion.
What game are you playing and where can I get it?
In all seriousness though, the spirit that eve had back when I started playing left long ago. I've tried getting back into it and I just feel...I dunno, empty.
I agree with op in that the game is becoming more and more broken and tbh I don't give 2 ****s about new content. Roll everything back to rev and I'd be a happy camper.
I used to scoff and tease other people who played "that game" and tell them to go back to it, but I've been playing it recently and it does have something going for it that eve doesn't: it is fun.
Tralalaaa!
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Verdon Teraskun
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Posted - 2010.07.13 14:03:00 -
[42]
The problem with this post (and all like them) is that I imagine CCP have done the numbers, and have found that a very large majority of older players aren't willing to just leave the game.
Why work to satisfy a market that is going to support you regardless? How many accounts have been canceled about this? I imagine not very many. There's simply more money in bringing new players in, but the game's own huge entry barriers kind of defeat that too.
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Nikita Alterana
Gallente Risen Angels
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Posted - 2010.07.13 14:06:00 -
[43]
CCP is making a grave mistake with this, even if their failures in satisfying their customers don't make us quit, it will sure as hell make us less likely to stay when a newer, shinier game comes out.
CCP is chasing a setting sun while abandoning their loyal customers. This needs to change.
/signed.
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Brennivargur
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:07:00 -
[44]
Signed
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist I have facial hair how can I help?
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hakkiew365
The Knights Templar R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:13:00 -
[45]
/signed
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Inka Kaoru
The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:27:00 -
[46]
Signed.
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DogSlime
Caldari Wilde Cards
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:33:00 -
[47]
/signed
...but it's a waste of time.
Check the CSM minutes - the writing is on the wall for the next 12 months at least.
They need your money for DUST. People will still subscribe and they'll still pay.
The only time CCP will take note is if people vote with their wallets, but they DON'T!
People pay month-after-month until they get sick of the un-solved problems and the underdeveloped content and realise that the promised improvements won't happen. By then, CCP have a pile of subscription money to throw at... anything other than EVE, it seems.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:35:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Mendolus on 13/07/2010 16:36:37
Originally by: Verdon Teraskun The problem with this post (and all like them) is that I imagine CCP have done the numbers, and have found that a very large majority of older players aren't willing to just leave the game.
This is a moebius loop tho, or a Schroedinger's cat at the very least, the moment they give people like me (+2.5 years in EVE, with four accounts) the impression that they feel entitled to my money and are banking on me putting up with anything they tell me to is the moment I start closing down accounts when I would probably have left them all active had they not given said impression.
I closed 2 out of 4 of my active accounts, and the only reason I have not closed all four is that A) Yes, for the time being I cannot force myself to halt training on my two main accounts, and B) I have friends I still want to be able to talk to occasionally.
BUT this ^ won't last long if I keep seeing more and more ample evidence that CCP has gone from a company that wants to DELIVER a product rather than a company that wants to SELL a product.
I can and will spend the remainder (my remaining 2 active accounts) of my money elsewhere if CCP feels like they can bank on me being so addicted to their game that I will let them put me through anything to keep playing it. That in and of itself is what can be classified as an abusive relationship, even at the consumer/provider level, it is a kind of usury IMO, and as a consumer I will not put up with it. It is like Microsoft doing hostile takeovers to ensure that their consumers have little to no option but to purchase product from them, CCP thinks, hey there is no other competition out there and our users are so addicted and they cannot get their spaceship fix anywhere else, so we can do what we want! Wrong.
{...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness} |
Jarnis McPieksu
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:39:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Verdon Teraskun The problem with this post (and all like them) is that I imagine CCP have done the numbers, and have found that a very large majority of older players aren't willing to just leave the game.
Why work to satisfy a market that is going to support you regardless? How many accounts have been canceled about this? I imagine not very many. There's simply more money in bringing new players in, but the game's own huge entry barriers kind of defeat that too.
Hence, the only "feedback", the only "vote" you have is the "cancel subscription" button. The rest CCP can just ignore and go full steam ahead with their fail priorities.
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S'qarpium D'igil
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:46:00 -
[50]
/signed.
(Mostly just because I'd like to get a real response from CCP for once)
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Bazman
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:47:00 -
[51]
With ccp constantly expanding I don't see how they can't both continue adding new shinies while having a team that can work on finishing/balancing the features from previous expansions. Retaining customers as well as attracting new ones should be paramount but it seems CCP just want to operate on a revolving door strategy. Let the old players ~bittervet~ and quit while shovelling newbies into the fire.
Not that the servers seem to be able to handle lots of people right now :x -----
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S'qarpium D'igil
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:50:00 -
[52]
Edited by: S''qarpium D''igil on 13/07/2010 16:50:25 The problem with that strategy is that new players tend not to stay.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:59:00 -
[53]
After having had a night to think about this: I'll cancel my accounts when the game bugs become too annoying to continue playing with a given account. I should definitely cancel the FW alt. No point really in keeping him since they don't intend to fix anything about faction war for the next 2 years.
Sigh.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Devro Lynx
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:01:00 -
[54]
Tangential products and and eye to find the storm is what made eve in the first place.
In 2000-2003 WoW was considered revolutionary, yet, other than a floozy interface and some interesting game-play designs (useful professions) it was relatively the same game as everquest, FFXI, and Guild Wars. They knew what would work. Back then you made an MMO in neatly cut sections and sewed them together with fancy transitions. You expected a server load and set limits. You partied a finite number of players so that it was fair and everyone got a turn. You quest. Players didn't need to create a market it was created for them. Prices were set. PvP was strictly regulated. Anything out of the ordinary (jet can mining) would be considered an exploit. Scamming was strictly forbidden. Eve's closest competitor Earth and Beyond made a game strikingly similar in gameplay to those games. Look where it is. EA's failure trash bin.
Eve was the first, and still is the only, successful sandbox mmo. Everyone plays in the same universe. Most items are made by the players. The players ARE and RUN the majority of the economy. Daily player business are the quests. The player events are real and matter. Eve asked "What if there was a market... like the stock market", "What if everyone was in the same universe and there were no limits", "What if players made everything"... the list went on and on. Formations were in the plan but they're not in eve (yet?), moving planets and belts were in the plan but they're not here either, so was station gambling (there were once pirate stations you could gamble at). Incarna's ALWAYS been in the plan. Ultimately, eve was/is such a big idea it will never be finished. When eve was in development developers I know SCOFFED at how ludicrous it was. They would argue with me about how it was more likely that CCP would flop because there was no way they could make good on all the stuff they wanted to do. At the time it was "technically impossible".
Now, the unachievable goal set way back when is slowly being implemented, changed in many ways, but it still pushes forward.
That's the big difference. Other games polish a finished product, Eve still isn't done. It has to polish and build at the same time. That means occasionally we have to sacrifice one for the other. We've been waiting long enough for DUST and Incarna. It's time. Features that are far out of reach, even out of imagination, may one day be created because eve is a LONG term creation. There is no end date. It is the company, not just a product.
My point is that on one thing you're utterly, and entirely wrong. CCP has NEVER steered away from "the storm". The more accurate metaphor involves drunk vikings PURPOSELY trying to sail through a hurricane.
Eve isn't everything we want it to be. But it sure is badass! And there was a time when things were technically impossible (some things still are like no downtime and moving planets and moons are still a little far fetched) but as time goes by things ARE getting better. But you can't see that in a monocle.
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Richard Christy
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:02:00 -
[55]
o_O
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DogSlime
Caldari Wilde Cards
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:08:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Devro Lynx
My point is that on one thing you're utterly, and entirely wrong. CCP has NEVER steered away from "the storm". The more accurate metaphor involves drunk vikings PURPOSELY trying to sail through a hurricane.
Eve isn't everything we want it to be. But it sure is badass! And there was a time when things were technically impossible (some things still are like no downtime and moving planets and moons are still a little far fetched) but as time goes by things ARE getting better. But you can't see that in a monocle.
Sticking with your analogy - it's not the fact that CCP have steered away from the storm, it's that they've set the engines to dead-slow and aren't plugging the leaks in the boat. It's not the overall philosophy of EVE that is the problem - the game concept is SUPERB - it's CCP's failure to properly develop the game.
Things are getting better? Some new shinies have been added, but almost all the stuff that was wrong before is still wrong. It requires the allocation of resources to put it right, and CCP have indicated that those resources are now allocated elsewhere.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:12:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Devro Lynx
That's the big difference. Other games polish a finished product, Eve still isn't done. It has to polish and build at the same time. That means occasionally we have to sacrifice one for the other. We've been waiting long enough for DUST and Incarna. It's time. Features that are far out of reach, even out of imagination, may one day be created because eve is a LONG term creation. There is no end date. It is the company, not just a product. ... Eve isn't everything we want it to be. But it sure is badass! And there was a time when things were technically impossible (some things still are like no downtime and moving planets and moons are still a little far fetched) but as time goes by things ARE getting better. But you can't see that in a monocle.
This is a fantastic post. But, it cannot possibly be ok to leave major game breaking bugs and horribly broken features on the table for two years while you brave the Hurricane. I would have been perfectly fine with the CSM minutes had CCP's attitude been:
CSM: Please focus on Quality instead of Quantity! CCP: We do try. Here's some ways we're working on that - help us think of better ways! CSM: You could try creating a small "polish team" that fixes long standing bugs and content CCP: Oh dayum what a great idea! Take like 2-3 developers and a couple art dudes and we can really pimp this ****!
CSM: Lag sucks guise. See watch this video! CCP: Yeah, I've seen that. CCP MORSUS MIHI showed it to us and I have some suspicions its the $technobabble.
This is a pretty far cry from: CSM: Please focus on Quality instead of Quantity! CCP: Meh **** you. New players are where the $$ is, and we put more effort into it than LOTR did.
Make the polish team. Team Batman. BECAUSE I'M THE GOD DAMNED BATMAN DAMMIT!
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Jarnis McPieksu
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:17:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Make the polish team. Team Batman. BECAUSE I'M THE GOD DAMNED BATMAN DAMMIT!
This.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:19:00 -
[59]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt the root of the problem is that people over time loose interest when they work on the same matter too long.
CCP appears to be the most excited about things when they're being hyped as upcoming features, but halfway through actually working on them, they lose interest and invent some new upcoming feature to hype. They have plenty of interest, it just never sticks with something to the end.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Attrezzo Pox
Amarr Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:25:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Attrezzo Pox on 13/07/2010 17:35:12 Edited by: Attrezzo Pox on 13/07/2010 17:32:43 agreed.
The only game pushing MMO limits like Eve has is Guild Wars 2.
Cataclysm is just another level cap. Just the set of go get this and kill these quests. The real infinite grind.
I also agree that Eve needs work, but it always have. We're spoiled with some spectacular gameplay elements. The realtime market for one. So we expect the best for everything. We still have boring npc rats (sleepers are pretty cool), horribly boring missioning system, and low sec is all but empty save for pirates and travelers.
If Eve 'sails' the steady course it will fail and it will die. New ships and modules are "shinies". Titans and Capitals were "shinies". T2 and T3 were "shinies". Incarna and DUST are new games, but in CCP fashion they'll become part of the company, part of eve. They'll become entirely new gameplay elements in eve. Not "minigames" but full fledged areas of the Eve Universe that you can spend all of your time in. But they're always connected to the original Eve. They're NOT separate products. It takes real Balls (viking balls) to do something like that.
With that in mind, doesn't it make sense that any balancing will be far more effective to do ONCE after their release than to do multiple times before AND after.
But in general I agree with many of the ideas of CSM this year. A polish team would be awesome. There are bugs, but I am not aware of "game breaking" bugs. Maybe for some players but when I dock in Jita it doesn't turn off the internet or anything. I think it's worth admitting that while there are some screws loose/missing, and the ship is leaky it's NOT sinking.
You're riding along while CCP implements a long term goal. A really complicated and hard one. Try to have some patience. If you can't handle it. Quit. and...
cun i haz ur stuf?
*-------------------------* PoX IS Eve!!! BOOM!!! |
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