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Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:01:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Alexeph Stoekai on 14/07/2010 16:12:25
 Originally by: Spectre3353
When I pay for a SERVICE, I expect the money to go towards improving THAT SERVICE.
You really should read the EULA. You seem to have no clue what you're paying for.
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Pesky LaRue
Minmatar
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:06:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Spectre3353
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
CCP are no different to McDonalds or Coke - you may LOVE their product but you are no more in control of how they run their business model than you are of CCP.
If you're unhappy, vote with your wallet and quit. Enough of you do it and that WILL get the attention of everyone at CCP. Until then, enjoy your burger.
But paying for Eve-Online as a service is not really comparable to paying for a consumable product. When I buy a can of Coke, I expect a single can of Coke. When I pay for a SERVICE, I expect the money to go towards improving THAT SERVICE, not some other random one that is being developed on the side that I will gain nothing from without paying another separate fee (ie: Dust 514, WoD, whatever). The fact that the money we are paying is not going towards improving the quality of the service we are paying for is the issue here and it is a big issue.
Ok, so substitute "McDonalds" with "AT&T" or "your internet service provider" or whoever - paying them money each month entitles you to nothing more than using their service "as is" - you do not have a vote about where they spend the cash you give them, nor what they develop or focus on.
A problem in these debates is that people LOVE their games so much they stop seeing clearly.
Yes, we love this game. Yes, it has flaws. No, we don't have any say in how it's developed, beyond not paying for it.
This isn't a lemonade stand. This is a business and the people that run the business, for better or for worse, get to make the decisions. All of them, except "shall I pay them again this month"
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[Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels] |
Cozmik R5
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:38:00 -
[33]
Incarna is the bastard child of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.
____________________
Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try. |
Andreus LeHane
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:43:00 -
[34]
I mean if people are that upset with CCP they should just continually buy shares until they have a controlling interest in the company, and then threaten to replace the board of directors if they don't do what you say.
With some of the people on the forums boasting about how rich they are IRL I'm certain this tactic will work for someone.
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Enuen Ravenseye
Amicus Morte
Shock an Awe
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:51:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Mr Epeen
It stops being "our" money when we finalize the transfer to CCP. Ergo, "we" have no say in what they do with it.
Beer, hookers, new game development, whatever. It's theirs to spend as they wish.
I can understand spending the money on beer and hookers. Walking in stations, however, seems to be nothing more than a waste of resources.
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Spectre3353
Gallente
The Python Cartel.
The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:53:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Originally by: Spectre3353
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
CCP are no different to McDonalds or Coke - you may LOVE their product but you are no more in control of how they run their business model than you are of CCP.
If you're unhappy, vote with your wallet and quit. Enough of you do it and that WILL get the attention of everyone at CCP. Until then, enjoy your burger.
But paying for Eve-Online as a service is not really comparable to paying for a consumable product. When I buy a can of Coke, I expect a single can of Coke. When I pay for a SERVICE, I expect the money to go towards improving THAT SERVICE, not some other random one that is being developed on the side that I will gain nothing from without paying another separate fee (ie: Dust 514, WoD, whatever). The fact that the money we are paying is not going towards improving the quality of the service we are paying for is the issue here and it is a big issue.
Ok, so substitute "McDonalds" with "AT&T" or "your internet service provider" or whoever - paying them money each month entitles you to nothing more than using their service "as is" - you do not have a vote about where they spend the cash you give them, nor what they develop or focus on.
A problem in these debates is that people LOVE their games so much they stop seeing clearly.
Yes, we love this game. Yes, it has flaws. No, we don't have any say in how it's developed, beyond not paying for it.
This isn't a lemonade stand. This is a business and the people that run the business, for better or for worse, get to make the decisions. All of them, except "shall I pay them again this month"
...and if my internet or phone provider was not giving me service that I felt was adequate, wasn't repairing issues with my service and had a panel of customers that they claimed were important even though they ignored their requests, I would be equally upset.
That being said, I think this analogy stinks. AT&T or an ISP provide a completely different services with completely different expectations than an MMO.
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My Blog |
Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:02:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane
I mean if people are that upset with CCP they should just continually buy shares until they have a controlling interest in the company, and then threaten to replace the board of directors if they don't do what you say.
With some of the people on the forums boasting about how rich they are IRL I'm certain this tactic will work for someone.
CCP shares aren't publicly traded, AFAIK. It's mostly owned by people who work there.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Baneken
Gallente
Aseveljet
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:10:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Malcanis
CCP shares aren't publicly traded, AFAIK. It's mostly owned by people who work there.
Well they better or they might end up like Ben & Jerry (the ice cream makers) when their lawyers told them 'sorry guys but you gotto sell, it's the law, Unilever owns your ass now. End of story and thanks for the fish'.
Caldari aren't only ones known for ruthless capitalism, all you need is to look at Nestle or other major players in the 3rd world countries. 
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
alittlebirdy
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:12:00 -
[39]
It is the new word for "waste of time" or "epic fail"
Usage
"don't incarna with that"
"wow that was such a incarna"
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Fikreta
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:14:00 -
[40]
Incarna? Unless they allow us to beat the **** out of each other I'm not interested.
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:40:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Baneken
Originally by: Malcanis
CCP shares aren't publicly traded, AFAIK. It's mostly owned by people who work there.
Well they better or they might end up like Ben & Jerry (the ice cream makers) when their lawyers told them 'sorry guys but you gotto sell, it's the law, Unilever owns your ass now. End of story and thanks for the fish'.
Caldari aren't only ones known for ruthless capitalism, all you need is to look at Nestle or other major players in the 3rd world countries.
CCP are an Icelandic company, so I doubt the same laws that apply to B&J would necessarily apply to them. Ruthless capitalism or no, I also doubt that a wholly owned private company can be forced to go public, unless a large minority shareholder wants it to.
Additionally to the shareholder thing. CCP are also self-published, so they dont have an external publisher to answer to.
On a topical sidenote, as it happens I work for Unilever, and we have a Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream Bar in the reception area. I get free icecreams at work! \o/
(Today I had Strawberry Shortcake)
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Antihrist Pripravnik
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:45:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Cozmik R5
Incarna is the bastard child of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.
Now THAT is going in my bio.
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:54:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Ban Doga on 14/07/2010 17:57:50
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Ok, so substitute "McDonalds" with "AT&T" or "your internet service provider" or whoever - paying them money each month entitles you to nothing more than using their service "as is" - you do not have a vote about where they spend the cash you give them, nor what they develop or focus on.
A problem in these debates is that people LOVE their games so much they stop seeing clearly.
Yes, we love this game. Yes, it has flaws. No, we don't have any say in how it's developed, beyond not paying for it.
This isn't a lemonade stand. This is a business and the people that run the business, for better or for worse, get to make the decisions. All of them, except "shall I pay them again this month"
I think that's a great idea.
Imagine your internet connection is having some issues lately: reduced bandwidth, more disconnects, service interruptions.
It certainly was much better in the past, after all you decided to use that ISP for a reason.
So you get in contact with the customer support and they tell you:
"Right now we are working on two extremely important and large projects. We are very excited about them and we believe you will love them as well.
One is a large addition to our existing online services where users will be able to upload videos, share, comment and recommend them. There will be a whole community around this and everything will be about socializing about the content you like.
The other project is exclusively for smartphones and will allow you to use navigation services everywhere you are.
No more getting lost, always reach your destination on the best route.
Since these two projects are so large we have committed most of your resources to working on them and cannot commit to any repairs regarding your problem.
Completion of those projects is expected in about 18 - 24 months.
After that we will probably shift to more maintenance of existing products and services.
These are exciting times and we appreciate your interest in our work."
I'm pretty sure you would commend them on their excellent business strategy right then and there.
After that you would probably wonder how many comparable services are already existing and why you don't need or want another YouTube and wether you should buy a smartphone to use that navigation service.
But then you realize that your internet connection just went dead again...
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Nemi Lethal
Gallente
DarkStar Armada
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.14 18:16:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Nemi Lethal on 14/07/2010 18:17:00
Originally by: Andreus LeHane
I still don't understand the point of it, where exactly am I going to have to walk to in stations?
I believe the foundation for Incarna has already been built for the most part and CCP has the concept fully functioning, they have to populate this expansion with stuff for the player base to do. That's why it's taking so long.
Incarna for eve will probably push this game beyond 1 million active subscribers if done correctly. With that comes a entire mess of logistics involving hardware and networking. Im not saying they would get to that point directly after release but most certainly within a very very short period eve's population will explode.
You have to think about every player thats ever played eve-online realizing they can now step out of their ship for the first time in years. Couple that with CCP's already insanely effective internet marketing campaign it's easy to see Incarna will be hugely popular.
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Scrotal Hematoma
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Posted - 2010.07.14 18:28:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Nemi Lethal
You have to think about every player thats ever played eve-online realizing they can now step out of their ship for the first time in years. Couple that with CCP's already insanely effective internet marketing campaign it's easy to see Incarna will be hugely popular.
At which point, I think they might be wishing they'd sorted out their performance issues first.
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Corin Nebulon
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.14 18:34:00 -
[46]
Incarna means you can spin a 3D avatar of your char in station instead of your ship. Devs have worked for years on this feature...
Its mainly a feature for the roleplayers, so they can get a more visual experience when cybering on ts or vent.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2010.07.14 19:26:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Yuki Kulotsuki on 14/07/2010 19:29:13
Originally by: Ban Doga
ISP shenaniganry
Not sure if irony intended. That sounds exactly like the sort of thing my ISP does. If you actually utilize the service you get capped or throttled. They're not spending money to upgrade their infrastructure. They are expanding into other realms that I don't care about like VOIP for home phones or new on-demand features when I don't have a home phone and prefer to use a cell and I don't bother paying for TV since I can get what I want from Hulu and Netflix streaming. And guess what, that ISP is also the only 'game' in town. The other offerings are 56k, satellite or DSL which is far enough from the provider for there to be an issue.
So let's see...
Issues with the current service:
Crappy network management vs long standing bugs
No upgrades in the near future:
Same old equipment vs in 18-24 months guys
New services:
VOIP + on-demand vs Dust + Incarna
No reasonable alternatives:
Dialup, insane latency, dialup 2.0 vs WoW, Hello Kitty Online, F2P tripe
That said both Dust and Incarna actually interest me much more than the crap my ISP is expanding in to. However I'm disappointed in the lack of resources for fixing current issues. Would it really be that difficult to hire team batman?
Edit: I'm not sure if I made it clear but I'm not happy with my ISP either. My avenues for complaint against them are much smaller and much less effective. CCP used to give at least a half a damn. But that seems to be changing.
Originally by: CCP Lemur
THIS IS GOD: ...
IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
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Geralden
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Posted - 2010.07.14 21:01:00 -
[48]
Just like PI it SEEMS like a good idea, until CCP get's their hands on it.
Walking in stations will be like... walking in stations.... and a few years development has been/will be wasted on another thing most players couldnt care less about...
But, it may attract real female players ???
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Pesky LaRue
Minmatar
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
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Posted - 2010.07.14 22:11:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 14/07/2010 22:11:43
Originally by: Spectre3353
That being said, I think this analogy stinks. AT&T or an ISP provide a completely different services with completely different expectations than an MMO.
And there you go again with that childish, petulant attitude - it doesn't matter if you think the analogy stinks, the logic behind it holds true - WHATEVER the service is, we're paying for it and stamping your foot and bursting into tears or making demands doesn't do ANYTHING to change the fact you either accept paying for a flawed service, or you stop paying. You are not a shareholder. You are not a dev. You are not on the board of Directors. The only input you have is a 1/350,000 decision as to whether or not you pay them this month.
Originally by: Ban Doga
I'm pretty sure you would commend them on their excellent business strategy right then and there.
After that you would probably wonder how many comparable services are already existing and why you don't need or want another YouTube and wether you should buy a smartphone to use that navigation service.
But then you realize that your internet connection just went dead again...
Nope, if I had called and been given that spiel then no, I wouldn't commend them on anything - I would cancel my service and move to an ISP that I WAS happy with.
If - as in the case of EvE - there were no other real competitors, I would have to decide - AS IN THE CASE OF EVE - whether the frustrations/annoyances I have with the service offered outweighs the $15 a month I pay for it.
We can dance around this until the end of time but the point remains - no matter how emotionally invested in this game anyone feels, they are not owners, not even part-owners, and the game is CCP's to run.
Yeah, it's flawed as hell, but it's still growing after 7 years when most other MMOG's have long shut down by that point, so even if I don't agree with a lot of what they say, I'm not going to doubt CCP's right to run their product as they see fit.
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[Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels] |
Cartheron Crust
Krazny Oktyabr Revolyutsiya
Yezhovshchina
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Posted - 2010.07.14 22:18:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Cartheron Crust on 14/07/2010 22:18:14
Originally by: democrities
Ive seen people mention dust, and Im familiar with it, but what is incarna?
It's an old troll used by CCP Devs. |
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Bud Johnson
Rapscallions
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Posted - 2010.07.14 22:24:00 -
[51]
10/10
Way to unleash the nerd rage bro.
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MaxxOmega
Caldari
Dissident Aggressors
Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2010.07.14 22:47:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Like many others, you mistakenly believe that because you pay a subscription, you are a shareholder. You are not.
CCP are no different to McDonalds or Coke - you may LOVE their product but you are no more in control of how they run their business model than you are of CCP.
And it amazes me just how many people here can't grasp that simple concept. So many come here and continually moan and whine or as one idiot put it to me "I am here trying to make things better". They actually think "they" are going to convince CCP to see things their way and change things. CCP will change their business practices as they see fit. To any business "shareholders" are king, customers and employees are nothing more than a necessary evil to get the cash rolling in. As if 15 lousy dollars a month is going to make CCP bend over...
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Olleybear
I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2010.07.15 00:18:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Mr Epeen
Beer, hookers, new game development, whatever. It's theirs to spend as they wish.
Oh gawd! How can we possibly expect anyone to make a rational decision with those 3 choices? Even I would spend it on the beer and hookers first. 
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Niccolado Starwalker
Gallente
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2010.07.15 00:55:00 -
[54]
Originally by: democrities
Ive seen people mention dust, and Im familiar with it, but what is incarna?
Incarna is a new setting for EVE online, which gives you a character to play with and space stations to walk around in. You will also be able to create your characters portrait again, this time in full feature figure.
What the space station will hold is not completely revealed. However you will most likely be able to run stores, there will be bars to socialize in and you will have your own captains quarters. The will be different sections too in the station: some public areas and others corporation areas. And corp CEOs will from what I understand be able to place recruiting NPCs in these areas to help on the recruiting.
During two fanfests now we have seen CCP present to us videos from the coming expansion. Showing the grahic engine in work. The characters in actions. The station interiors etc. That is, as far they have come in the production line.
We also know that a small part of this expansion will arrive in December. What is it is more unsure, but the main part of Incarna will not come this year according to a ccp representative earlier. Most likely we will see it next year.
Incarna is also formely known as Walk in station and ambulation. And you should be able to find more info on CCPs youtube center from fanfest videos plus here on the forums.
Originally by: Dianabolic
Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL. |
Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.07.15 01:25:00 -
[55]
An Incarna is a newly discovered species of peafowl which dwells on the wild untamed plains of Canada.
My deepest sympathies.
Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Karlemgne
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2010.07.15 02:07:00 -
[56]
Vaporware.
My sig don't fracking work. |
BrundleMeth
Caldari
Temporal Mechanics
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Posted - 2010.07.15 17:27:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Originally by: democrities
Ive seen people mention dust, and Im familiar with it, but what is incarna?
Incarna is a new setting for EVE online, which gives you a character to play with and space stations to walk around in. You will also be able to create your characters portrait again, this time in full feature figure.
What the space station will hold is not completely revealed. However you will most likely be able to run stores, there will be bars to socialize in and you will have your own captains quarters. The will be different sections too in the station: some public areas and others corporation areas. And corp CEOs will from what I understand be able to place recruiting NPCs in these areas to help on the recruiting.
During two fanfests now we have seen CCP present to us videos from the coming expansion. Showing the grahic engine in work. The characters in actions. The station interiors etc. That is, as far they have come in the production line.
We also know that a small part of this expansion will arrive in December. What is it is more unsure, but the main part of Incarna will not come this year according to a ccp representative earlier. Most likely we will see it next year.
Incarna is also formely known as Walk in station and ambulation. And you should be able to find more info on CCPs youtube center from fanfest videos plus here on the forums.
All which sounds tedious and dull. This is the kind of crap girls want to play, nothing more than social engineering. If I wanted to play that I could buy a copy of Sim Loser. Walking around stations looking for stores to shop in. Sounds gay...
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.15 17:35:00 -
[58]
Edited by: ThisIsNotMyAlt on 15/07/2010 17:35:42
Originally by: BrundleMeth
All which sounds tedious and dull. This is the kind of crap girls want to play, nothing more than social engineering. If I wanted to play that I could buy a copy of Sim Loser. Walking around stations looking for stores to shop in. Sounds gay...
lol.
i bet once incarna hits all you grown strong manly bearded people will be the first running around in the stations with your empire alts. |
JitaBum
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.07.15 17:41:00 -
[59]
From the horses mouth:
Characters in station can mingle with other characters. Interactions will initially be very basic and focused around mini games. CSM asked about in-station fighting or aggressive behaviors. CCP would not promise either in the near term. It has to be kept in mind that the basic idea regarding Incarna is to socialize, not to have an arena. An analogy with airports has been used in the past and that vision was further reinforced in HjaltiĘs book, EVE: The Burning Life.
It sounds like Playstation Home, which turned out to be a horrible snoozefest where you'd log-in once and never want to go back. I really doubt Incarna will have a significant impact on sub numbers.
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democrities
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:28:00 -
[60]
Originally by: JitaBum
From the horses mouth:
Characters in station can mingle with other characters. Interactions will initially be very basic and focused around mini games. CSM asked about in-station fighting or aggressive behaviors. CCP would not promise either in the near term. It has to be kept in mind that the basic idea regarding Incarna is to socialize, not to have an arena. An analogy with airports has been used in the past and that vision was further reinforced in HjaltiĘs book, EVE: The Burning Life.
It sounds like Playstation Home, which turned out to be a horrible snoozefest where you'd log-in once and never want to go back. I really doubt Incarna will have a significant impact on sub numbers.
Jita will be more crowded then a Tokyo subway
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