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New Dev Blog: Iterative development and what's happening in 2011

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Kinroi Alari Gallente Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2010.07.22 19:39:00 - [1531] This type of dev blog makes me feel more comfortable as a customer (maybe I won't drop that third account!). -- Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere...
Haven Wind	Posted - 2010.07.22 19:43:00 - [1532] Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow We're delving into philosophy here, but if they are doing that (forecasting and budgeting based on statistics and making decisions on developer allocation based on numbers) then that's one of the problems. Just to be clear - Im not against forecasting and budgeting - like many of you, a large part of my job is comprised of it, but basing your decisions solely on the numbers is erroneous. I did say that they 'presumably' considered customer relations. Though that point is entirely debatable given this thread. Truthfully this might be more of an execution issue.
Haven Wind	Posted - 2010.07.22 19:53:00 - [1533] Originally by: Ebisu Kami Of course these numbers and the conclusion drawn are not perfect either, but CCP are the only ones, who actually have these detailed numbers, but they haven't released them as of yet. That's what we challenge them for: Transparency and a reinforced drive for quality, which is obviously very much appreciated by the players. I don't disagree with you with perhaps the exception of the flavor of the candy (or lack thereof). I do believe that Incarna will taste like rainbows and unicorns (medium rare please) I am an optimistic fellow, and I expect I will be pleased when Incarna is released. Perhaps this is where we agree to disagree and ride this thing out.
Cosmic Rainbow	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:04:00 - [1534] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Here's another honest question I fully expect to be ignored. Has CCP taken into account the extremely short lifespan on any FPS on console? You won't simply be competing with MMO developers who have products in wildly different genres, you will be directly competing with companies that have been putting out top rated FPS for 20+ years. You will have to outdo the interest in all of them to keep your playerbase. Are you ready to do this without massively diverting devs from Eve? I believe what CCP is attempting to do with Dust and PI is to specifically counter that issue by tying in Dust to the EVE MMO and therefore lengthening the value of the FPS by providing a content driven game, rather than just capture point A and defeat team XYZ again, and again and again. This is the whole 'ground-breaking' nature of the Dust/PI interaction that's supposed to be Win for CCP. (personally I just think its an attempt to get their ego stroked)
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:07:00 - [1535] Yes but that doesn't change that console players have a notoriously short attention span. Even with tons of bells and whistles. Do people still play TF2 heavily on console? I know there are literally thousands still playing on PC. The two groups of players are very different in their playing habits.
Morphisat Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:17:00 - [1536] Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow I believe what CCP is attempting to do with Dust and PI is to specifically counter that issue by tying in Dust to the EVE MMO and therefore lengthening the value of the FPS by providing a content driven game, rather than just capture point A and defeat team XYZ again, and again and again. This is the whole 'ground-breaking' nature of the Dust/PI interaction that's supposed to be Win for CCP. (personally I just think its an attempt to get their ego stroked) I seriously doubt more than a handful will care for this tie-in with Eve. And it will be a rather low-impact tie in at first from what I read. What if after a couple of months there is only a small number of people still playing it ? I guess time will tell...
Cosmic Rainbow	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:18:00 - [1537] Edited by: Cosmic Rainbow on 22/07/2010 20:19:10 Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Yes but that doesn't change that console players have a notoriously short attention span. Even with tons of bells and whistles. Do people still play TF2 heavily on console? I know there are literally thousands still playing on PC. The two groups of players are very different in their playing habits. Yes they are - but I dont think you can equate TF2 to what Dust is proposing to do. I think (read hope) it might be more on the order of PlanetSide. Now if EVE decided to a Planetside 2 esque kind of thing within the EVE Universe, I think the uptake and playability/longevity would be much greater than your average FPS. Edit: Of course the non-planetary bombardment kind of gays the whole thing, and as the above poster pointed out the initial link will be weak. I hope they dont pull a Tyrannis PI type of implementation for Dust/PI on the console...
Ebisu Kami	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:19:00 - [1538] Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 22/07/2010 20:21:59 Originally by: Haven Wind I don't disagree with you with perhaps the exception of the flavor of the candy (or lack thereof). I do believe that Incarna will taste like rainbows and unicorns (medium rare please) I am an optimistic fellow, and I expect I will be pleased when Incarna is released. Well, if I take you by word, you actually already got what most people expect Incarna to be: Fancy colours and nice fantasies, but no substance. I actually find that sad, since I am one of those, who see a use for Incarna, beyond beeing the WoD-beta-test, if and only if CCP can find something that Incarna actually adds to EVE, beyond rainbows and unicorns. Originally by: Haven Wind Perhaps this is where we agree to disagree and ride this thing out. Well, bookmark this thread and check back here after this winter-expansion, the next summer-expansion and the (most likely) final Incarna-release in winter 2011 and I'm pretty convinced you'll have realized by then: They were right. Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow I believe what CCP is attempting to do with Dust and PI is to specifically counter that issue by tying in Dust to the EVE MMO and therefore lengthening the value of the FPS by providing a content driven game, rather than just capture point A and defeat team XYZ again, and again and again. This is the whole 'ground-breaking' nature of the Dust/PI interaction that's supposed to be Win for CCP. (personally I just think its an attempt to get their ego stroked) The content for Dusters, which EVErs can create, will be contracts to send them to different planets (maps) and let them fight there for us. Their influence on us will be equally marginal, because they'll at best destroy or conquer some PI-installations, which may be part of sovereignty or not. That's about it, so far. Beeing enthusiastic about that? I'm not, because we will most likely be able to hire bots to defend and attack as well.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:27:00 - [1539] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Yes but that doesn't change that console players have a notoriously short attention span. Even with tons of bells and whistles. Do people still play TF2 heavily on console? I know there are literally thousands still playing on PC. The two groups of players are very different in their playing habits. Square Enix released Final Fantasy for the Xbox360 and the PS2 (and later usable on the PS3) six years ago, it's still supported/played. Final Fantasy XIV would have been released for the Xbox360 if MS hadn't changed certain policies, now it's released on the PS3. These are MMOs designed for the PC, working on a console (with a decent console interface). Not exactly short term products. I think CCP is aiming for a similar market. The only issue I can find is that a console generally isn't all that good for a FPS, apparently there have been tests that pitted exceptionally good console FPS players against mediocre PC FPS players and the console players often lost. I'm seeing folks connecting keyboards and mice to their console so they can play their best game of Dust514. EVE Online players offering continued incentives to Dust514 players, and CCP continuing deploying new 'shinnies' to extend that attention span of the console player. Also keep in mind that as this is an exclusive console game, there will be (a lot of) PC players that will play this game because there is no PC alternative. The only reason I own an Xbox(360) is due to a few exclusive console titles, some of which aren't really all that good according to the reviews, but I still like them (compare them to a crappy romance novel).
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:29:00 - [1540] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/07/2010 20:30:12 TBQFH if I had half way decent internet and Dust was on a PC I'd almost certainly play Dust to the exclusion of Eve. :) -Liang Ed: Well... maybe not. I really enjoy FPSs, but its been so long. And I really really enjoy Eve, and Dust is only for consoles. I'm super sketched out by the viability of an MMOFPS in a console market. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:37:00 - [1541] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/07/2010 20:30:12 TBQFH if I had half way decent internet and Dust was on a PC I'd almost certainly play Dust to the exclusion of Eve. :) -Liang Ed: Well... maybe not. I really enjoy FPSs, but its been so long. And I really really enjoy Eve, and Dust is only for consoles. I'm super sketched out by the viability of an MMOFPS in a console market. EVE really needs some cheap thrills. If Dust was integrated in to the PC experience, I think it would be a bigger success than CCP assume. But I guess they can't do that because of :contract: with Microsoft. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
PC l0adletter	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:40:00 - [1542] Originally by: CCP Lemur Since I started here almost 2 years ago the amount of people working only on EVE and nothing else has only ever grown. They are not getting shoved into other projects and whatever else people here are screaming. 300 devs on Apocrypha. 94 on EVE now. 206 devs missing, by my math. If I'm mistaken about either number I'd love to hear it.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:41:00 - [1543] Originally by: Ebisu Kami Originally by: Haven Wind If I had to pick a side, I would go with the one with data on subscriber trends. Not the one with a 'feeling' its the wrong direction So you got the subscriber-numbers? Well, then go ahead and show them to us and prove your point. We all the subscriber-numbers, it's public record in QEN Q1 2010. They have a graph until the beginning of 2010 and character distribution table (and the how many characters per account numbers) give you an inkling of the Q1 2010 subscriber-numbers (when comparing to Q4 2009). Has so much changed since last year? I really don't think so, PI already did not interest most of the 0.0 PvP crowd in any way except maybe as a way to power their POSes 'cheap' (without having to go to Jita for refuel).
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:44:00 - [1544] Originally by: Cergorach Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Yes but that doesn't change that console players have a notoriously short attention span. Even with tons of bells and whistles. Do people still play TF2 heavily on console? I know there are literally thousands still playing on PC. The two groups of players are very different in their playing habits. Square Enix released Final Fantasy for the Xbox360 and the PS2 (and later usable on the PS3) six years ago, it's still supported/played. Final Fantasy XIV would have been released for the Xbox360 if MS hadn't changed certain policies, now it's released on the PS3. These are MMOs designed for the PC, working on a console (with a decent console interface). Not exactly short term products. I think CCP is aiming for a similar market. The only issue I can find is that a console generally isn't all that good for a FPS, apparently there have been tests that pitted exceptionally good console FPS players against mediocre PC FPS players and the console players often lost. I'm seeing folks connecting keyboards and mice to their console so they can play their best game of Dust514. EVE Online players offering continued incentives to Dust514 players, and CCP continuing deploying new 'shinnies' to extend that attention span of the console player. Also keep in mind that as this is an exclusive console game, there will be (a lot of) PC players that will play this game because there is no PC alternative. The only reason I own an Xbox(360) is due to a few exclusive console titles, some of which aren't really all that good according to the reviews, but I still like them (compare them to a crappy romance novel). You are missing a crucial component, these were all eventually made into PC games. CCP has repeatedly said dust will not be on the PC. You think people play FFXI on a PS2 anymore?
handbanana Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:48:00 - [1545] Originally by: Malcanis EVE really needs some cheap thrills. If Dust was integrated in to the PC experience, I think it would be a bigger success than CCP assume. But I guess they can't do that because of :contract: with Microsoft. Or maybe this is why: Console Gamers Get Killed against PC Gamers Given the fickle attitude of your common console gamer, if CCP lets bugs in Dust languish like they do in EVE-proper, Dust won't last long. And if CCP thinks we are tough customers, wait until they get console-rats as customers and then disappoint them. Originally by: CCP excellence.. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:50:00 - [1546] Originally by: PC l0adletter 300 devs on Apocrypha. 94 on EVE now. 206 devs missing, by my math. If I'm mistaken about either number I'd love to hear it. Your off your numbers there are now working 124 developers on EVE. The 300 dev numbers for Apocrypha I would like an official quote to. Some posters have speculated that those 300 folks was the entirety of CCP or even every one working for/on EVE that weren't Devs (thus also game masters, etc.). I can't find any official word on the 300 devs through Google...
UNDERBROW	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:51:00 - [1547] Edited by: UNDERBROW on 22/07/2010 20:53:41 Edited by: UNDERBROW on 22/07/2010 20:52:17 Edited by: UNDERBROW on 22/07/2010 20:51:43 Edited by: UNDERBROW on 22/07/2010 20:51:07 Edited by: UNDERBROW on 22/07/2010 20:50:56 It's time CCP let the community, you know, the ones paying for development on INCARNA/DUST, know why we should be interested in Incarna/Dust. We're the ones waiting 18 months for fixes to the real game (spaceships... you know.. the reason people actually subscribe for) Will Incarna end up being more than second life in space? If CCP would let the community know that there will be combat added soon after it's initial second life release I would be entirely satisfied. I will never walk in stations just to roleplay, if CCP thinks even 1/100 of the current eve population will then they are delusional.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2010.07.22 21:04:00 - [1548] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources You are missing a crucial component, these were all eventually made into PC games. CCP has repeatedly said dust will not be on the PC. You think people play FFXI on a PS2 anymore? They were actually initially released for the PC, with releases for the consoles a few months/years later (all playing on the same server(s) btw). But that's not really the point, a big publisher made the investments to make a decent interface for the console and actually release (the first?) a console MMO and kept supporting it over the years (expansions were also released for the console). That there are a bunch of folks playing on the PS2, I don't doubt, but I suspect that a most have bought their PS3 and are now playing on that (with the same disc they bought for the PS2). Originally by: wiki Final Fantasy XI As of August 14, 2006 the Xbox 360 version was the sixth most played game on Xbox Live. For CCP the number of sales is of course the most important component of Dust514, as they don't ask a subscription fee, maybe additional income can be generated through DLC content or expansions. And the connection with EVE Online is a big enough of a 'gimmick' to attract a lot of interest. Attention span of console players can be 'focused' through the correct application of DLC and expansions on disc (again taking a page from the FFXI book).
Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.07.22 21:05:00 - [1549] Originally by: UNDERBROW .... I will never walk in stations just to roleplay, if CCP thinks even 1/100 of the current eve population will then they are delusional. I think you're wrong. I'm pretty sure that most players will try it out. I'm also pretty sure that it will quickly become boring for most once the initial thrill is over.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.22 21:06:00 - [1550] You realize if Dust dies the means by which we do any interaction they provide through it will die as well right? It does matter if it's never coming to PC because it not only drastically reduces the market but reduces the chance it'll last more than a year or two.
Haven Wind	Posted - 2010.07.22 21:10:00 - [1551] Originally by: Ebisu Kami Well, bookmark this thread and check back here after this winter-expansion, the next summer-expansion and the (most likely) final Incarna-release in winter 2011 and I'm pretty convinced you'll have realized by then: They were right. It would not be the first time I was wrong about something, but I will take up your challenge, consider this thread bookmarked
UNDERBROW	Posted - 2010.07.22 21:11:00 - [1552] Originally by: Bomberlocks Originally by: UNDERBROW .... I will never walk in stations just to roleplay, if CCP thinks even 1/100 of the current eve population will then they are delusional. I think you're wrong. I'm pretty sure that most players will try it out. I'm also pretty sure that it will quickly become boring for most once the initial thrill is over. Sure they will try it out, but my point was that they wont just to roleplay.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.22 21:15:00 - [1553] Originally by: Bomberlocks Originally by: UNDERBROW .... I will never walk in stations just to roleplay, if CCP thinks even 1/100 of the current eve population will then they are delusional. I think you're wrong. I'm pretty sure that most players will try it out. I'm also pretty sure that it will quickly become boring for most once the initial thrill is over. Yeah! Let's spend 4 years and the majority of the devs for a feature 99% of Eve will just simply TRY OUT and then forget. Good idea!
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2010.07.22 21:19:00 - [1554] Originally by: UNDERBROW It's time CCP let the community, you know, the ones paying for development on INCARNA/DUST, know why we should be interested in Incarna/Dust. The only thing your paying for is the privilege of playing the game as it is. Assuming that your paying for development is assuming that you have power that you don't have and rights you don't have. CCP is providing a service, you accepted it as it is, you have no rights (you knew that if you actually read the EULA). Sure you can make suggestions, that's what the CSM is for, CCP has every right to don't do anything with those suggestions (and you have the right to quit when you stop enjoying yourself). What CCP shows as upcoming features/fixes are suddenly explained away as promises set in stone by the 'community', instead of the well meaning hopes of enthusiastic developers/management, that they actually are. You think that anyone of the folks working at CCP wants EVE to tank as much as some of you seem to indicate, no they don't. They want to keep working there until they are old and gray, they know the only way they can do that if their company is financially health. That doesn't need to mean that EVE has to be 'perfect' to be successful, and what is 'perfect' generally differs from person to person. If you realize that 'polishing' the game will probably take the most time/resources and the least rewards, you know why CCP is reluctant to cater to everyone's wishes. If you want to know why we should be interested in Dust514/Incarna, search the internet, read E-on. There has been a lot of info, I'm sure it will not initially contain everything that is talked about, but at least you will understand what their intention is with those components.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.07.22 21:19:00 - [1555] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Originally by: Bomberlocks Originally by: UNDERBROW .... I will never walk in stations just to roleplay, if CCP thinks even 1/100 of the current eve population will then they are delusional. I think you're wrong. I'm pretty sure that most players will try it out. I'm also pretty sure that it will quickly become boring for most once the initial thrill is over. Yeah! Let's spend 4 years and the majority of the devs for a feature 99% of Eve will just simply TRY OUT and then forget. Good idea! Next up: Why CCP Soundwave thinks any EVE players at all would complain about him not developing Evegate. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.22 21:24:00 - [1556] We don't think they want Eve to tank. We think they are grossly out of touch with their playerbase.
Marcus Vorenius Caldari Citadel Enterprise	Posted - 2010.07.22 21:24:00 - [1557] I wonder whats next: Game Designer (EVE) CCP is actively searching for a Games Designer to contribute in the creation, design, and development of concepts and treatments for EVE online. This is primarily for socially oriented projects such as EVE Gate, our web enabled portal for EVE Online players. There will be focus on interactive design and UI with this role. http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs/job-details.aspx?jobid=225 _______________ EVE 2011: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0202677/quotes?qt0240307 Car = Spaceship
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2010.07.22 21:44:00 - [1558] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources We don't think they want Eve to tank. We think they are grossly out of touch with their playerbase. Ah, but that doesn't mean that they are making any errors in their plans for the financial health of CCP and thus EVE. It only means that they are p!ssing of a portion of their player base, something I think is not necessarily a bad thing (cost/benefit). Of course the player base might actually be right, or something else goes wrong and the player base will still say "See we were right!!!". A politician is always 'out of touch' with some (a lot) of the voters, that is to be expected, they never aim to attract all the voters. The same goes for (game) companies. You don't try to hold on with all your might to keep your old player base, that is a loosing battle. If on the other hand you make a huge improvement on a different aspect of the game you might actually profit from loosing a lot (if not all) of your old players. Some (game) companies have actually used that model to stay in business and profit immensely (Games Workshop for example). Eventually companies have reached their capacity for attracting new customers and attempts will be made to keep those customers for a longer time. CCP has now entered that era of focusing more on new players then keeping the old, it might eventually come back to bite them is the behind, but that might be years away. Stalling Dust514/Incarna/WoD (even more) could be disastrous now instead of later. They do have investors they have to deal with (Novator Partners and General Catalyst Partners), those might have a say on the direction of the development. Not to mention that Iceland has been hit particularly bad by the economic crisis and CCP (or the investors and owners) might need 'instant cash' asap. Dust514 and WoD are direct money makers, Incarna indirectly, but might still generate way more subscribers that will subscribe to EVE then those that will leave EVE due to fixes they want. The above is of course speculation, but so is most of what is claimed in this thread. I'm just trying to put a different perspective on the situation.
Seados	Posted - 2010.07.22 21:45:00 - [1559] Originally by: CCP Atropos Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: CCP Atropos If I had the answers that you were looking for I would respond with them. However I don't, I merely wanted to show that we're still here, reading all 49 pages of this. On what EVE/CCP-related subjects can you answer questions? I'm a member of the Core Infrastructure group, and we deal with build automation, deployment automation, installers, patches, the repair tool, thin clients, automated code quality tools, and a few other things to boot. Hi! I and I suspect others do appreciate you posting in this thread to show it's at least being read. I've chosen to show this appreciation by haranguing you about the thing which niggles most about your own area of work: When we install a new patch, the patch notes pop up for us to read, after which we can click 'next' and the patch will begin downloading. Patch notes are long, the time to download the patch is long. It'd be fantastic if we could read the patch notes while the patch was downloading.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2010.07.22 21:50:00 - [1560] Originally by: Marcus Vorenius Edited by: Marcus Vorenius on 22/07/2010 21:37:44 I wonder whats next: You can't spell "what's" - cool ;-) I would like to point out that no one is perfect, even not to folks that wrote the text on the page the use to attract a *new* Producer of Incarna.

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