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Ari Chu
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Posted - 2010.07.18 06:25:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ari Chu on 18/07/2010 06:26:11 I see lots of people talk about how mining is dead.... primarily because of Bots. Here is a very simple change that would make mining much more interactive, reduce the efficiency for Bots, and allow noob miners greater opportunities.
Instead of flat results from lasers, make it a % base with a flat cap.
For Example: Say that a rock has 10,000 Units; and that a mining laser currently pulls 100 Units per Cycle. 100 Cycles later, the rock goes poof.
Now let's change it so that the same Mining laser gives 1% with a cap of 100 units per cycle. The first cycle would still give 100 units, but as time goes on - the results would decrease. ------------------------------------------------- Bots would need to be rewritten to periodically change rocks... large scale mining operations would leave lots of little rocks which noob miners can still pull enough from to fill their destroyers.
Mining would reward players who are paying attention more than those who just afk mine. ---
"The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers. |
FootyMD
Caldari Rig's industry
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Posted - 2010.07.18 06:36:00 -
[2]
Interesting idea, not sure how well it would do but they do need to find a way to kill the bots.
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ingenting
20th Legion Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.18 12:56:00 -
[3]
1. wrong forum 2. already been suggested (eve-search.com) ________________ About 20th Legion |
Ari Chu
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Posted - 2010.07.18 14:01:00 -
[4]
Originally by: ingenting 1. wrong forum 2. already been suggested (eve-search.com)
1. If the mods move it, that means that saw it. Plus it isn't really the wrong forum - unless you view discussions about problems, without potential solutions, as belonging in Industry. I could have worded mine to be more like "Macros are a problem for the entirity of EVE, here is a potential way to hurt them" - but I thought this wording was more constructive.
2. Doesn't matter if something's already been suggested. If it's a good idea, the mods need to see it over and over again as opposed to all the idiots wanting to make PI simple to macro. ---
"The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers. |
SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.07.18 14:02:00 -
[5]
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 18/07/2010 14:05:51
Originally by: ingenting 1. wrong forum 2. already been suggested (eve-search.com)
3. It would be trivial to incorporate this mechanic into a mining bot, so the end result would be that it would force actual players to do more work to mine, while having no impact on the bots whatsoever.
Edit: Additionally, the mods are not necessarily the developers, and it's not a good idea.
Hope this helps. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Ari Chu
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Posted - 2010.07.18 14:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 18/07/2010 14:05:51
Originally by: ingenting 1. wrong forum 2. already been suggested (eve-search.com)
3. It would be trivial to incorporate this mechanic into a mining bot, so the end result would be that it would force actual players to do more work to mine, while having no impact on the bots whatsoever.
Edit: Additionally, the mods are not necessarily the developers, and it's not a good idea.
Hope this helps.
Trivial to incorporate this into a Bot? No, I don't believe that is the case at all. Currently the Rocks disappear when they are no longer useful for mining. With the change, the rocks would remain. Bots would have to either remember which rocks they had already visited, or would have to be able to detect the mins available.
Not to mention that Bots would have to realize when the output from mining had dropped sufficiently low enough to warrant changing rocks.
I don't believe for an instant that any of this would be "trivial" to a bot.. or at the very least, such a change would force Bots to be rewritten which, in itself, leads to lower efficiency. ---
"The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers. |
SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.07.18 15:54:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ari Chu
Trivial to incorporate this into a Bot? No, I don't believe that is the case at all.
Unfortunately, your disbelief is not a functional substitute for reality.
Quote: Currently the Rocks disappear when they are no longer useful for mining. With the change, the rocks would remain.
Yes, I'm aware of that.
Quote: Bots would have to either remember which rocks they had already visited, or would have to be able to detect the mins available.
And you, what? Think either of those would be particularly difficult to implement into a bot?
Quote: Not to mention that Bots would have to realize when the output from mining had dropped sufficiently low enough to warrant changing rocks.
I don't believe for an instant that any of this would be "trivial" to a bot.. or at the very least, such a change would force Bots to be rewritten which, in itself, leads to lower efficiency.
You're not a programmer, are you? --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Trygon Glisk
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Posted - 2010.07.18 16:58:00 -
[8]
Whether it is good or not, you don't have to attack the idea because you feel that it wouldn't work. You've stated your opinion, now move on. |
Ari Chu
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Posted - 2010.07.18 18:48:00 -
[9]
You set up some nice strawman arguments. Hopefully there are enough people who can see through such nonsense.
Did I say that it was impossible to bot with this change? No. I merely said that the change would make bots less efficient, or that more complex bots could be written - but that the act of writing such a bot makes it more inefficient.
But go ahead and pretend like I am arguing that this will get rid of Bots.
---
"The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers. |
SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.07.18 18:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ari Chu You set up some nice strawman arguments. Hopefully there are enough people who can see through such nonsense.
Did I say that it was impossible to bot with this change? No. I merely said that the change would make bots less efficient, or that more complex bots could be written - but that the act of writing such a bot makes it more inefficient.
But go ahead and pretend like I am arguing that this will get rid of Bots.
There's zero benefit to making it marginally (and it really would be VERY simple) more difficult to write a bot. Seriously. "Make it more inefficient?" Oh ****ing noes, someone has to spend a couple of hours adjusting their bot before setting it back running 23/7. Yeah, that's going to have a huge impact.
In fact, if anything, this would probably work in the bots favor. A bot will always be more persistent than a human player. The normal human isn't going to sit there meticulously adjusting his mining targets to make sure he is always achieving optimum yield. A bot, by contrast, most certainly can.
Sorry, but this idea is worse than useless. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
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Syuveil
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Posted - 2010.07.18 21:58:00 -
[11]
yes, it would be trivial.
currently, most bots work by filtering your overview to show roids only, sort by distance, target the nearest roid and start mining. with this change, all thay would have to change is start using survey scanners instead of overview, and sort by ore amount instead of distance...
it might temporarily disable the "macroers" who just downloaded some spyware-infested bot software off the internet and started running it without having any knowledge about how it works whatsoever, but the people who write their own macros using a specialized software would adapt in 20 minutes, tops.
in the end, this would primarily impact the legit afk miners, only boosting the macroers profits.
i agree that something should be done about macros, but if you want to solve this problem, you will have to do more than just add more repetitive tasks to the mining process... you'd have to add something that behaves differently every time, something unpredictable... have some of the roids booby-trapped or something like that
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Merdaneth
Amarr Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
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Posted - 2010.07.18 22:12:00 -
[12]
The only sure way to oppose bots is to require parts of the game require actual intelligent challenges.
We are playing an SF game even. Our characters would surely automate these boring tasks. We're supposed to be these immortal super-rich people, and all were doing is pressing a button every couple of minutes without really thinking? ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Nobzy
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Posted - 2010.07.18 23:29:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Nobzy on 18/07/2010 23:30:34 edit: redundant.
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Nai Sethanas
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Posted - 2010.07.23 01:41:00 -
[14]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 18/07/2010 19:13:04
There's zero benefit to making it marginally (and it really would be VERY simple) more difficult to write a bot. Seriously. "Make it more inefficient?" Oh ****ing noes, someone has to spend a couple of hours adjusting their bot before setting it back running 23/7. Yeah, that's going to have a huge impact.
In fact, if anything, this would probably work in the bots' favor. A bot will always be more persistent than a human player. The normal human isn't going to sit there meticulously adjusting his mining targets to make sure he is always achieving optimum yield. A bot, by contrast, most certainly can, which would in turn almost certainly drive even more people toward botting.
^ This IMO, If you think this would be difficult for a programmer to overcome you're horribly mistaken. Also a bot can be incredibly meticulous and will probably end up being more efficient than humans at choosing the right roids thus increasing the bot population rather than decreasing it.
I'm all for making botter's lives harder but this will punish the few players that do mine manually much more than the botters.
Overall interesting Idea but not viable in the slightest.
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Elenoe
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Posted - 2010.07.23 08:31:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ari Chu
Trivial to incorporate this into a Bot? No, I don't believe that is the case at all.
you seems not to be miner nor programmer. As many said, its trivial update of macro and terrible burden to human harvesters. BTW. your idea is unnecessary complex. Yoy basicaly propose roid should not disapper when 0 ore left. Nothing else. That part with % is completely useless. When current system updated to roid not to pop when mined, same effect: still easy for macros to overcome and problem for humans since survey scanner is not the first thing I wanna in medium slot in 0.0 mining
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Manipulator General
o.0
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Posted - 2010.07.23 13:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: ingenting 2. already been suggested (eve-search.com)
The Features and Ideas forum might as well be renamed "Recycle Bin".
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