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[proposal] Banking Evolved: Consequences and Incentives

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Red Doppler	Posted - 2010.07.20 00:40:00 - [31] Let me get this straight... The way to stop an in game bank from scamming, would be to not just send them our isk, but send them our isk and our real money too? I'm so glad I never touched E-Bank with a ten foot pole.
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2010.07.20 00:41:00 - [32] Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Anything having to do with real life currency would be a violation of the EULA. Could you comment on this? Eve Strategic Maps I beleive this is the sort of service Hexxx is refering to. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.07.20 00:56:00 - [33] Why do banks need to exist in Eve? Just because we have banks in real life, does not necessarily mean we need to have them in Eve. They are two different worlds with two different sets of needs and ways to meet those needs. Should we start having unions in Eve too just because they exist in real life? The reality of it is, imo, that without some of the penalties that exist in real life for defaulting that the bank concept can't really get very far. CCP has wisely forbidden such RL links to exist, thus the foundation for any bank is built on sand and is likely to eventually erode.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.20 01:08:00 - [34] Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Anything having to do with real life currency would be a violation of the EULA. Could you comment on this? Eve Strategic Maps I beleive this is the sort of service Hexxx is refering to. I was ready to post a snarky response to CCP Zymurgist's rather broad statement, but instead, I will simply agree with you. Projects Blog
Syds Sinclair	Posted - 2010.07.20 01:24:00 - [35] Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Anything having to do with real life currency would be a violation of the EULA. Could you comment on this? Eve Strategic Maps I beleive this is the sort of service Hexxx is refering to. I was ready to post a snarky response to CCP Zymurgist's rather broad statement, but instead, I will simply agree with you. ..Maybe the difference is that the cartographer service is a static service with limited, or even non existent day to day, month to month, year to year interaction. $$ = prepackaged glimpse of the well readily available Eve universe. Whereas what you are suggesting for a banking system in eve is a dynamic service which directly charges $$. $$ = service. And I dunno, maybe discussion of this topic inside of the official E-O forums might require a response from a CCP Mod. But a personally owned website with a few creative links offering said service but without the mention of character or account names might be fruitful. Without my $1 tho.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.07.20 03:15:00 - [36] Amarr for Life
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.20 10:48:00 - [37] Originally by: cosmoray Assuming that CCP were to allow RL exchange of money OR that players could have RL $$ stakes in Eve corps it would be a legal minefield especially in the USA. Gaming companies would have to be insane to allow it, I can almost see the lawyers in America rubbing their hands at the thought of it. I thought the main point of Eve was to have fun. Soon as it stops being fun you stop playing. Why give yourself an extra headache in RL. Two things. 1) No where in any of my writings, anywhere at anytime, have I suggested or endorsed the idea of exchanging RL money for IG money. Ever. Never. Period. 2) This is my idea of fun. Projects Blog
Magnu Stormhawk Stormhawk Enterprises	Posted - 2010.07.20 11:57:00 - [38] Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 20/07/2010 03:30:13 How does this stop people like Ricdic was simply doing it anyway? Remember he took all that ISK to pay for real life bills and had no problems leaving EVE after that. To him and quite possibly most scammers, even Real Life impacts wouldn't stop them. I mean lets face it, Ricdic claimed he made off with $7,000. There is no way he would have paid $7,000 to get to that point. Most people wont. Herein lies the problem with the idea as I see it. RL consequences I agree would bring some of the required security, but I cant see how it can be balanced with the amount RL cash that could be made in on hit, from a one-time scam. Maintaining a future income stream is an incentive to not scam, but its not free, you would be working for it surely. How does that balance with the ultimately risk free option of cashing it in when you've had enough of eve by doing a Ricdic? As far as issues with the EULA go, I am sure there will be a way to play by the rules, despite the ccp response above. It would just need the details ironing out and the nature of the payments making clear. I think this is less of an issue than whether such income would have the effect you want it to on the management of a bank.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2010.07.20 12:36:00 - [39] Edited by: Selene D''Celeste on 20/07/2010 12:38:13 Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Anything having to do with real life currency would be a violation of the EULA. Could you comment on this? Eve Strategic Maps I beleive this is the sort of service Hexxx is refering to. I'd also like to mention that we've had petition chains with the GM staff in the past for EULA clarification on this matter, since one of the many future ideas for EOH is to provide things like a full personal playing statistics package, a leaderboard, or customized avatars to anyone who has donated at least X in $ to subsidize server costs (which are 100% donated at the moment). This is the same as what Hexxx is discussing here, where the users are paying $ for information. We were told that as long as no in-game currency or assets are tied to the $, and it is information only, then that does not break the EULA. So something like free chips/ISK for donators is bad, but a pretty graphic is okay. If this is not the case, then a more explicit clarification needs to be made, but I am assuming this post was made without actually reading the thread in detail =P P.S. These ideas for EOH are quite a ways off, as I have a long list of features I want to implement before even fleshing out what I mentioned above. Edit: It's important to note that this isn't much different than donating to popular EVE services, such as eve-radio or to Chribba to help with bandwidth, except in this case there is packaged information provided back to donators as a thank-you. ______________________________
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.20 12:40:00 - [40] Edited by: Hexxx on 20/07/2010 12:40:17 Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 20/07/2010 03:30:13 How does this stop people like Ricdic was simply doing it anyway? Remember he took all that ISK to pay for real life bills and had no problems leaving EVE after that. To him and quite possibly most scammers, even Real Life impacts wouldn't stop them. I mean lets face it, Ricdic claimed he made off with $7,000. There is no way he would have paid $7,000 to get to that point. Most people wont. Herein lies the problem with the idea as I see it. RL consequences I agree would bring some of the required security, but I cant see how it can be balanced with the amount RL cash that could be made in on hit, from a one-time scam. Maintaining a future income stream is an incentive to not scam, but its not free, you would be working for it surely. How does that balance with the ultimately risk free option of cashing it in when you've had enough of eve by doing a Ricdic? As far as issues with the EULA go, I am sure there will be a way to play by the rules, despite the ccp response above. It would just need the details ironing out and the nature of the payments making clear. I think this is less of an issue than whether such income would have the effect you want it to on the management of a bank. That simply means that the RL revenue stream from extra reporting services would have to be significantly larger than the possible "one hit" scam in my opinion; but it's an excellent point. If the premium service is generating too little, yet the Bank has a very large amount of ISK, then the risk for scamming hasn't really been mitigated. edit: fixed a disastrous misspelling Projects Blog
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2010.07.20 13:17:00 - [41] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste We were told that as long as no in-game currency or assets are tied to the $, and it is information only, then that does not break the EULA. So something like free chips/ISK for donators is bad, but a pretty graphic is okay. If this is not the case, then a more explicit clarification needs to be made, but I am assuming this post was made without actually reading the thread in detail =P It is ultimately ccp's call to say what is allowed or not, but how any of this or the previous defenses of real money trading for services account with the actual rules of software development? It is not allowed to charge real money for software build for eve, only donations are allowed, not even for "extra" features. It seems that you have blurred the line a little bit by charging for (or rewarding donors) providing data on an out of game service built on top of eve, linked by isk but disconnected from the game. It is the additional layer that may distinguish you from every other negative answer on this matter. I don't see any bank could build something like this (Charging rl money for statistics on how much isk have you deposited and withdrawn along time? What possibly useful information can it provide not directly related to eve?). Since it is not allowed (and certainly it shouldn't be unless ccp changes the rules for every other developer) this discussion is futile. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Anything having to do with real life currency would be a violation of the EULA. That is all it's needed to say, trying to distort perception to make an exception doesn't change the fact that you will be charging real money for access to software or services directly related to the game. Unless you want to charge money for useless data (not related directly with the game).
KaarBaak Minmatar Hell's Librarians Darkmatter Initiative	Posted - 2010.07.20 13:43:00 - [42] Edited by: KaarBaak on 20/07/2010 13:45:16 Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Anything having to do with real life currency would be a violation of the EULA. Could you comment on this? Eve Strategic Maps I beleive this is the sort of service Hexxx is refering to. I pretty sure those maps are put out by E-ON magazine, which is the "official" magazine for EvE Online. As pointed out above, many 3d party app developers have gone round and round with CCP over this. Some iPhone apps that were originally sold for .99, had to be re-priced to "Free" after contact from CCP. That said, it IS a very grey area. Can I sell little white oval bumper stickers with "JITA" on them for 3.00? For 20M isk? What about T-shirts with Alliance logos? Killboards? Corp website hosting? I don't think RW money is the answer to the banking problem. In-game controls are...and CCP has demonstrated that (A) They don't want to do it and (2) Even if they did, it would be 18 months before they even started working on it, minimum. KB Edit: The only way I could see skirting the EULA issues is you would have to not touch the API, and use no CCP-owned graphics. =vinur allra manna MetaGaming
Anna Weston Gallente Holdings Inc	Posted - 2010.07.20 13:56:00 - [43] Earlier this year I dabbled with Global Agenda (a fun little MMOFPS if you haven't come across it) and the way they were set up each player could only have one account to which all their characters were linked. This was explained as a design decision explicitly aimed at ensuring that players cared about their reputations; we would have no access to anonymous alts for doing our dirty work (though as GA isn't at all sandboxy, there's not much opportunity for dirty work except on the forums). I'm curious as to how this would affect EVE. If every character we owned could be linked to every other you can't help thinking that it would be much easier to genuinely hold people accountable for their actions. I'm also wondering if there's room in EVE for some kind of "reputation broking" service, something like a cross between a credit reference agency and the Better Business Bureau. I've only got a vague idea what it would look like at the moment but it would be an interesting experiment.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.07.20 14:02:00 - [44] Originally by: Anna Weston the way they were set up each player could only have one account to which all their characters were linked. How does a company confirm that? 2 different e-mail addresses: check 2 different credit cards: check 2 different IP addresses: check 2 different RL names and addresses: easy to have a friend, relative, ect setup which can go along with the first 3 items I mentioned. Now you have 2 accounts that are separate and as long as no one runs their mouth, they are played by the same player.
KaarBaak Minmatar Hell's Librarians Darkmatter Initiative	Posted - 2010.07.20 14:07:00 - [45] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Anna Weston the way they were set up each player could only have one account to which all their characters were linked. How does a company confirm that? 2 different e-mail addresses: check 2 different credit cards: check 2 different IP addresses: check 2 different RL names and addresses: easy to have a friend, relative, ect setup which can go along with the first 3 items I mentioned. Now you have 2 accounts that are separate and as long as no one runs their mouth, they are played by the same player. I think it stopped being "just a game" somewhere between "2 different credit cards" and "2 different IP addresses" for that person. =vinur allra manna MetaGaming
Anna Weston Gallente Holdings Inc	Posted - 2010.07.20 15:00:00 - [46] Originally by: Breaker77 How does a company confirm that? 2 different e-mail addresses: check 2 different credit cards: check 2 different IP addresses: check 2 different RL names and addresses: easy to have a friend, relative, ect setup which can go along with the first 3 items I mentioned. Now you have 2 accounts that are separate and as long as no one runs their mouth, they are played by the same player. And two or three years after you've done all that work you slip up and start using the same e-mail/password/IP for both accounts. BAM! automatic EULA violation, bye-bye to all your training and assets. It's a high-risk as well as high-effort approach! Anyhow, how many broadband connections do you have at your house? I think most of us would find it non-trivial to have to run EVE accounts from separate IPs! Meanwhile, back to my actual question.
Hel O'Ween Men On A Mission	Posted - 2010.07.20 15:45:00 - [47] Originally by: OwlManAtt It's like charging ten US dollars for EveWalletAware; a piece of software that runs analysis on data imported from the API. Just to clarify before someone gets confused: I never did nor do I have the intention to ever charge anything for EVEWalletAware, especially no RL money. I personally think that the later would even be in violation of the EULA/ToS, because it would be selling "content appearing within the Game environment" (= your transactions, journal etc.) for RL money. It is my understanding that this is not allowed. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager
Dzil Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.20 16:01:00 - [48] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Anything having to do with real life currency would be a violation of the EULA. That is all it's needed to say, trying to distort perception to make an exception doesn't change the fact that you will be charging real money for access to software or services directly related to the game. Unless you want to charge money for useless data (not related directly with the game). [/justify] Unfortunately this is an area where precedent defends both sides of a gray area. We have support tools like EMMA, the EVE maps, EVE Radio, etc that do take in RL $$ for out of game services: the question of how relevant to the game seems to be the dividing area. Obviously a direct exchange of cash for ISK is forbidden, but what about access to market data that allows you to act on regional price differences faster than your competitor, making loads of isk in the process? Or starmaps that let you settle an optimal place for PI/moon mining without exhausting hours of time and millions in probes? Or a radio station that will advertise your EVE business on live airwaves? One thing ebank did right IMO is they worked closely with CCP GMs to ensure services were EULA friendly before offering them to the public. I would recommend a similar practice before getting to serious with any model that included real life revenue ;) Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :)
Dzil Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.20 16:10:00 - [49] Originally by: KaarBaak Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Anna Weston the way they were set up each player could only have one account to which all their characters were linked. How does a company confirm that? 2 different e-mail addresses: check 2 different credit cards: check 2 different IP addresses: check 2 different RL names and addresses: easy to have a friend, relative, ect setup which can go along with the first 3 items I mentioned. Now you have 2 accounts that are separate and as long as no one runs their mouth, they are played by the same player. I think it stopped being "just a game" somewhere between "2 different credit cards" and "2 different IP addresses" for that person. I could come up with 2 credit cards as easily as using my wife's and my own (plus, atm you can run a game with just GTC/PLEX - you don't have to use a CC). And this brings the added question: if you get a Billy and Bobby Sue with the same IP address, how to you differentiate between family members with different accounts, vs one guy with aliases? Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :)
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.07.20 16:18:00 - [50] Edited by: Thrasymachus TheSophist on 20/07/2010 16:22:12 Originally by: Anna Weston I'm also wondering if there's room in EVE for some kind of "reputation broking" service, something like a cross between a credit reference agency and the Better Business Bureau. I've only got a vague idea what it would look like at the moment but it would be an interesting experiment. There are lots of possibilities, some have been posted with reasonable detail previously on the forums. The key is this: Character training has value, and reputation has value. You could further add "value" to some sort of in-game reputation by having it give consequences -- sort of like security standing but on steroids. There are many such consequences you could consider from tax rates to denial of use of stations to shooting on site to denial of use of star gates, to Empire paid bounties, to denial of paying for killing rats, to denial of use of market or cotnracts, to denial of giving any missions, to pretty much anything you can think of that would devalue the character. Obviously you have to balance the consequence to the act, and you need to have a solid underlying system that insures your rep hits and the consequences are legit and not subject to abuse/manipulation. But by making a character less valuable in game, you're hitting the player where it hurts. Its not jail, but its something. And I'd suggest its very doable. But I'm not convinced CCP even cares, or wants there to be any consequence beyond social ostracization (to the extent that even exists) . ...
Hel O'Ween Men On A Mission	Posted - 2010.07.20 17:01:00 - [51] Originally by: Dzil Unfortunately this is an area where precedent defends both sides of a gray area. We have support tools like EMMA, [...] that do take in RL $$ for out of game services: To my knowledge, EMMA never charged RL cash for anything. The licenses once sold where sold for ISK, which is allowed by the EULA. Also, donations of RL money are fine, as long as they're really donations (=voluntarily). I.e. asking for a (RL cash) "donation" in order to access extra features -> no go! I wish people would be a bit more careful with stating something like the above. This could easily be misunderstood and get someone banned. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.20 17:04:00 - [52] Originally by: Hel O'Ween Originally by: Dzil Unfortunately this is an area where precedent defends both sides of a gray area. We have support tools like EMMA, [...] that do take in RL $$ for out of game services: To my knowledge, EMMA never charged RL cash for anything. The licenses once sold where sold for ISK, which is allowed by the EULA. Also, donations of RL money are fine, as long as they're really donations (=voluntarily). I.e. asking for a (RL cash) "donation" in order to access extra features -> no go! I wish people would be a bit more careful with stating something like the above. This could easily be misunderstood and get someone banned. I've been doing my homework on this and while I haven't found a specific reference in the EULA, I haven't found real evidence of any charging any RL money for any service. The exception being the strategic maps (as a product, primarily to subsidize printing it). It may be that this idea is dead in the water. Projects Blog

CCP Fallout	Posted - 2010.07.20 18:30:00 - [53] Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Anything having to do with real life currency would be a violation of the EULA. Could you comment on this? Eve Strategic Maps I beleive this is the sort of service Hexxx is refering to. EVE Maps is published by MMM, the same people who publish and sell EON. You order through that page and redirect to the EVE Store, or go directly to the EVE Store and order it from there. Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us

SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.07.20 18:36:00 - [54] If I remember correctly I think the only reason EBANK was allowed to have a donations link was because it was used to fund the operation of the service itself. Like EVEMaps costs money to print so they charge for printing it but not for profit turning. I don't think CCP is against real life costs being covered. I think the main issue is people giving you $ and you though the service giving them ISK. If you remember Hexxx the idea Ricdic came up with was giving people who donated to the site a savings account if they didn't have one. I don't think it was ever proposed to CCP and EBANK didn't do it anyway, because we all viewed savings accounts as the devil. I think the main reason was people are getting additional ISK in the form of savings account for RL$. That's a pretty gray area because the Money could be proven to go pay the web/database server etc but people would be getting rewards. I still think it's a loop-hole but I can imagine this would be the extreme edge of what is OK and not OK. Applying a similar idea to any service would be questionable at best. So I think you're right, the idea would never really leave the planning stage because it's a fine line between money for something EVE related. Amarr for Life
Gabriel Rosencrantz Red Frog Investments	Posted - 2010.07.20 19:19:00 - [55] The initial post specifically mentions ôhaving some skin in the game.ö If that is the intent, why not use a mediated legal instrument? The CEO, directors, and staff put up $250 each. An official, properly credentialed, and disinterested third party (e.g., in the U.S. there are professional associations of mediators) holds the money in escrow and a formal instrument of agreement is drawn up to specify the conditions under which the money would be forfeit. For added ôskin in the game,ö one might consider having all of the money be forfeited even if only one of the staff members violates the agreement and perhaps make the fee an annual payment. If a staff member leaves in good standing, the money is returned less a small percentage for mediation expenses, and the replacement staff member puts in his money. The ceo/directors/staff should also have their real identities verified and recorded; whether that is made public immediately or upon forfeiture is debatable (I favor the CSM model). This would solve the problem of international jurisdiction, lawyerÆs fees, and other legal impediments. All of the parties will have agreed up-front to the terms and have deposited their money. All of the parties will have a vested interest in keeping an eye on each other. All of the parties get their money back (less the mediation fees). EveryoneÆs happy. Red Frog Freight: Hisec Courier Service
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.20 19:38:00 - [56] Originally by: SencneS If I remember correctly I think the only reason EBANK was allowed to have a donations link was because it was used to fund the operation of the service itself. Like EVEMaps costs money to print so they charge for printing it but not for profit turning. I don't think CCP is against real life costs being covered. I think the main issue is people giving you $ and you though the service giving them ISK. If you remember Hexxx the idea Ricdic came up with was giving people who donated to the site a savings account if they didn't have one. I don't think it was ever proposed to CCP and EBANK didn't do it anyway, because we all viewed savings accounts as the devil. I think the main reason was people are getting additional ISK in the form of savings account for RL$. That's a pretty gray area because the Money could be proven to go pay the web/database server etc but people would be getting rewards. I still think it's a loop-hole but I can imagine this would be the extreme edge of what is OK and not OK. Applying a similar idea to any service would be questionable at best. So I think you're right, the idea would never really leave the planning stage because it's a fine line between money for something EVE related. Donations seem to be the only way to collect RL money without incurring CCP wrath for non-sanctioned EVE related products/services (like EON, etc). Projects Blog
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.07.20 19:46:00 - [57] Quote: Why do banks need to exist in Eve? Just because we have banks in real life, does not necessarily mean we need to have them in Eve A bank can be a platform, the bow that can fire arrows (the 3rd party initiatives). If I wanted to start an added value service that involved people depositing money in accounts, using a bank as mediator would simplify the process tenfold. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.20 20:07:00 - [58] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Why do banks need to exist in Eve? Just because we have banks in real life, does not necessarily mean we need to have them in Eve A bank can be a platform, the bow that can fire arrows (the 3rd party initiatives). If I wanted to start an added value service that involved people depositing money in accounts, using a bank as mediator would simplify the process tenfold. That's the thing of it...I have a hunch people don't do more 3rd party services because of a lack of a "paypal" between EVE and their 3rd party websites. But it's rough to build that "paypal" if there's no 3rd party services lining up for it. Chicken or the egg? Projects Blog
Grozen Caldari Titan Core	Posted - 2010.07.20 20:59:00 - [59] no way to legally get around the eula. knowledge is power
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2010.07.20 22:30:00 - [60] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Originally by: Selene D'Celeste We were told that as long as no in-game currency or assets are tied to the $, and it is information only, then that does not break the EULA. So something like free chips/ISK for donators is bad, but a pretty graphic is okay. If this is not the case, then a more explicit clarification needs to be made, but I am assuming this post was made without actually reading the thread in detail =P It is ultimately ccp's call to say what is allowed or not, but how any of this or the previous defenses of real money trading for services account with the actual rules of software development? It is not allowed to charge real money for software build for eve, only donations are allowed, not even for "extra" features. It seems that you have blurred the line a little bit by charging for (or rewarding donors) providing data on an out of game service built on top of eve, linked by isk but disconnected from the game. It is the additional layer that may distinguish you from every other negative answer on this matter. I don't see any bank could build something like this (Charging rl money for statistics on how much isk have you deposited and withdrawn along time? What possibly useful information can it provide not directly related to eve?). Since it is not allowed (and certainly it shouldn't be unless ccp changes the rules for every other developer) this discussion is futile. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Anything having to do with real life currency would be a violation of the EULA. That is all it's needed to say, trying to distort perception to make an exception doesn't change the fact that you will be charging real money for access to software or services directly related to the game. Unless you want to charge money for useless data (not related directly with the game). There's no distortion about this. We had a hypothetical idea of tying future informational services to donators, either through ISK or $. The $ would be nice to subsidize the server fees that the host currently pays. We asked CCP through a petition chain if we could give out informational andnon-ISK/asset services/rewards to donators as a way of thanking them. We were told yes. I am simply saying that this conflicts with what was said earlier in this thread by Zymurgist. Luckily this is a ways off for us, but I would rather see clarification now than later. ______________________________

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