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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.19 18:51:00 -
[1]
From the "Banking in EVE" thread -
Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist
You can have all that you want - it won't change it. Until there is a consequence to defaulting or scamming, you will never have a safe and economically successful banking system.
I've been thinking alot about Banking and consequences in EVE, and Thrasy is right...well...half-right. I'll never really rule out it out as impossible, but the point is the chances of Banking "working" in EVE is largely hinged on consequences. These consequences can take many forms; reputation, collateral, etc. But maybe, just maybe, EVE Bankers really need to put some skin in the game. Have something at stake.
Assumption: I'm assuming there is some way that the Bank is making money. Loans, insurance, fund managers, whatever.
Primary function of the Bank; to provide financial services to the players of EVE. These include core functions such as interest bearing accounts and handling withdraws in a prompt manner.
Secondary function of the Bank; to make the person(s) running it real world money.
I will explain.
Until the person running the Bank has a real tangible stake in it, there are no consequences. Not really. But if they count on a hundred bucks extra a month (or more), that creates a real incentive to continue and a disincentive to stop.
What I'm saying is that not only must the bank find a way to generate ISK in-game, but it must find a way to generate RL currency out of game. Find a compelling reason for people to micro-subscribe for a monthly service...perhaps extra reporting, aggregated assets and accounting for multiple characters and multiple accounts, graphs which present data in a more meaningful way, etc.
As an example, EBANK had over 6,000 users before Ricdic's actions came to light. If 2,000 were individuals and active, and only a mere 15% (300) subscribed to extra reports or features for a dollar a month, that's $300. $3,600 a year. Imagine if the number was greater.
What I've proposed demands more of out-of-game services -- but given the long life of EVE and the potential of what I'm suggesting, I think the effort is worth it in many ways.
Projects Blog |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:03:00 -
[2]
cant we just make a legally binding document OOG? that holds the person economical responsible if he scams/steals the ISK. and partial responsible in the case of bad management...
that way there would be RL consequences at least where i live, if i where to break that binding agreement!
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:08:00 -
[3]
Hexxx is right about one thing unless these goes over the binds of the eula and in real life, there is never going to be real eve-bank.Simply because the eve consequences are so small.Lets take a look at them:
1.Use bpo locking by shareholders?If the ceo wants these bpos may never end up back in investor hands and eventually he is going to find a way to get them. 2.Collateral?What if the person holding it runs a away with it? 3.Wars?Seriously so many ways to evade this one its not even option.
If this were to evolve into real bank irl somehow connected to eve then there would be even legal punishment for stealing isk and nobody would think twice about that.
Unfortunately i doubt ccp would ever think to go that far or even take Hexxx's proposal into consideration.
knowledge is power |
Dezolf
Minmatar DAX Action Stance
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:10:00 -
[4]
Hexxx, you get all the good ideas. :D
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Gabriel Virtus
hirr
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:12:00 -
[5]
I think you hit it right on the head Hexxx and I think that this might be possible; however, I highly doubt an extra 100$ a month will keep someone from scamming in the game. Furthermore, through salaries, banks already offer realworld income in the form of PLEX so that they do not have to pay for their gametime across multiple accounts and have more money in the real world because of it.
@ Ji Sama - OOG contracts will have no affect whatsoever. You are not going to sue for the small amounts of money most people have in their bank accounts. Furthermore, you would need to outline the money value of a service and not assets in game because you own no assets in game - in the eyes of the legal system. The transaction costs of collecting on a breached contract, even for trillions of in-game isk, would far outweigh any benefit one would get from the value of the isk. This is ignoring the difficulties with international contracts and enforcing those contracts, many of which would make these sorts of international OOG contracts worthless.
I would suggest realworld information about those involved in the bank that would be available to the depositors.
-GV
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:16:00 -
[6]
Gabriel, it might be so where you are from, where i am from we have an agreement-law (aftalelov) and while i am no lawyer, the punishment for breaking such an agreement, is the same you get if your commit to fraud!
So it would have consequenses, and it would show up in RL on ones record, however you are right about he civil lawsuit! (you could get a freeprocess, I am not sure how that works, and especially considering if it where an international lawsuit!)
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Dirk Mortice
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:18:00 -
[7]
Against the EULA?
If I remember right you can sell OOG services for isk but not ingame services for RL isk, and regardless as to whether or not te reporting is ingame I get the feeling providing market/financial reports constitutes as that
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Lecherito
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:25:00 -
[8]
One of the better things I've read on the boards, as of late. It has, hopefully, been proven beyond reasonable doubt that the ingame benefits (plex = rl isk?) and consequences (reputation, collateral, etc) are not enough to deter banks from eventually scamming and/or collapsing. Until that factor can be resolved, ingame banks will never work. I'm thinking Hexx's idea, having a *real world* stake to lose, is on the right track.
-L
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Dezolf
Minmatar DAX Action Stance
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:38:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ji Sama Gabriel, it might be so where you are from, where i am from we have an agreement-law (aftalelov)
Which is exactly the problem with making a legally binding OOG agreement. You'd have to either make it country specific (lots of work) or just "rule out" countries with "strict" laws (which some companies do).
Also, while a bit off topic, how did I not know about that law?
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:45:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dirk Mortice Against the EULA?
If I remember right you can sell OOG services for isk but not ingame services for RL isk, and regardless as to whether or not te reporting is ingame I get the feeling providing market/financial reports constitutes as that
I'm not suggesting selling bank accounts, only access to premium reporting outside of game.
I believe this is already happening, perhaps you could clarify? Projects Blog |
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:57:00 -
[11]
Doubt you could charge ppl for that kind of thing, but maybe you could provide some real life securifty+ the benefits you said for rl currency.In case it needs to be a damn good service. knowledge is power |
Dirk Mortice
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Posted - 2010.07.19 20:18:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Dirk Mortice Against the EULA?
If I remember right you can sell OOG services for isk but not ingame services for RL isk, and regardless as to whether or not te reporting is ingame I get the feeling providing market/financial reports constitutes as that
I'm not suggesting selling bank accounts, only access to premium reporting outside of game.
I believe this is already happening, perhaps you could clarify?
Not too sure myself tbh, just throwing the point out that selling some eve service for RL cash could be risky. I suppose CCP could clarify for us but :ccp:
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Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
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Posted - 2010.07.19 20:40:00 -
[13]
Yes, interesting incentive for the people managing the bank. I'm more concern on how to make loans worth the risk.
BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.19 20:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Block Ukx Yes, interesting incentive for the people managing the bank. I'm more concern on how to make loans worth the risk.
It is my opinion that loans are not an activity a large Bank should be engaged with. It's more of a small Bank activity which inherently forces a smaller loan portfolio which hopefully provides more oversight.
Put another way, a large loan portfolio (and collateral) is too unwieldy to reasonably maintain in EVE. At least, for now. Projects Blog |
Dzil
Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.19 20:50:00 -
[15]
While it certainly couldn't hurt, there have been bigger, more complex and labor intensive feats accomplished in EVE that didn't require paying the core leadership real money to make it happen. As a motivational tool it might better encourage other directors to be more vigilant, but ultimately if a Ricdic in the organization gains access to massive amounts of isk, even a 100 USD salary may not persuade him from not making a couple grand in a one-time cash out ... further if he's become disillusioned with the leadership denying them that real world paycheck would make the bargain even sweeter.
Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :) |
SetrakDark
Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.07.19 20:58:00 -
[16]
EULA violation.
Reported.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.19 21:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dzil While it certainly couldn't hurt, there have been bigger, more complex and labor intensive feats accomplished in EVE that didn't require paying the core leadership real money to make it happen. As a motivational tool it might better encourage other directors to be more vigilant, but ultimately if a Ricdic in the organization gains access to massive amounts of isk, even a 100 USD salary may not persuade him from not making a couple grand in a one-time cash out ... further if he's become disillusioned with the leadership denying them that real world paycheck would make the bargain even sweeter.
Good points.
I'm not suggesting that it's a bullet proof idea, or that it will 100% stop fraud. I do believe (and am suggesting) that what I've proposed would bring stability to EVE Banking by introducing "real" consequences, at least from a cashflow perspective.
The idea being, it would significantly reduce the risk of fraud by creating strong financial disincentives against fraud. Projects Blog |
Syds Sinclair
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Posted - 2010.07.19 21:51:00 -
[18]
..I'm not paying $1 a month for anything. Instead of an OOG scheme to help banks in Eve, why doesn't someone ask in the correct forum signature contracts that can only be offered/accepted by accounts.
The only con I can see in this feature being implemented is that scamming is part of the user experience.
On another note, in real life, some of the perks and sole reasons of having a bank account is:
*No requirement to carry large sums of liquid $$ around. -Eve without banks has this. *Direct deposit to a central location. -Eve without banks has this. *Ability to purchase items/service online/(Eve world) remote locations. Eve without banks has this.
Even in RL, there is no point for a savings account, which is what EBANK primarily is. You can get WAY better returns through other methods in RL and Eve then shoving all your isk into a savings account.
In closing, banks in Eve are a fun element, just window dressing. A weird combo of role playing and financial maturity. It's fun to have a bank account in your video game. It's fun for the BOD's to pretend that they are financial managers. It's fun to have a safe (lol ya rite) investment that is earning you .2% interest monthly. It is fun to pretend that there is a valid reason to have a bank in Eve.
As for me, my isk is secure, in my wallet. Earning greater then the amount of interest that any in game bank can offer.
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2010.07.19 22:22:00 -
[19]
Anything having to do with real life currency would be a violation of the EULA.
Zymurgist Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact Us |
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TornSoul
BIG Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.07.19 22:31:00 -
[20]
I'm very very much against mixing RL money/value into anything EVE related.
Thankfully as Zym just posted it's also against the EULA.
It's a game. Period.
Lets keep it that way.
As soon as RL money/value gets involved - it stops being a game. In my opinion anyhow.
If that really is your thing there are actually a couple of other "games" out there that will cater to such desires.
Any solution has to be within the EULA - and as such, not tied in with any RL money/value.
If that ever changes I would seriously have to consider my involvement with EVE en large.
BIG Lottery |
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.19 22:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Anything having to do with real life currency would be a violation of the EULA.
So by giving CCP $15 a month I'm violating the EULA and can be banned?
I'm giving CCP RL currency and receiving EVE related services in exchange.
I always knew CCP was into RMT.
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Tekota
legion industries ltd Veni Vidi Vici Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.19 22:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Syds Sinclair good stuff
I'm very much with Syds on this one.
Further, not only is there no real driving need for more robust banking in Eve, I personally have no desire whatsoever to tie in real life financial obligations and responsibilities to a game played for entertainment. Once in game actions have real life fiscal implications it becomes a job. If I screw up at work I lose my job; if I screw up in my online entertainment then I lose my job also? Yep the real one and the virtual one.
Running the risk of troll bait here, but as Hexx has already referenced Ebank & Ricdic I'll risk it. Ebank's demise was characterised not just by theft perpetrated by one individual but by ignorance (and I use that in the dictionary definition sense of the word) bordering on recklessness on the part of some of the past staffing. Failing to properly manage fiscal instruments has serious implications, regulatory bodies in most countries have the powers to prevent such people from holding positions of financial responsibility in the future. Now, Ebank has it's established pitchfork wielding mob, but I doubt any but the most extreme of them would suggest that incompetent space pixel management should cost Directors their real life bank job and prevent them from in the future running an investment fund or becoming a company director.
The other thing is of course the ESRB Teen rating that CCP looks to aim for. Obviously can't hold 13 year olds to legally binding financial contracts (I say obviously, I've no idea on Icelandic law, guessing here). In principle, nerdy spreadsheet wielding 13 year olds may be supreme space pixel fund managers (just as nerdy spreadsheet wielding 30 year olds may be atrocious fund managers) - unwise to bar spotty four-eyed accountants of the future (part of CCPs target market undoubtedly!) from a substantial part of their game.
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Thrasymachus TheSophist
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Posted - 2010.07.19 22:51:00 -
[23]
There are many, many opportunites to have real consequences that remain in game.
They require, however, some action on the part of CCP that may (or may not?) be contrary to their vision of a "sandbox".
If the Devs were into it, they could create a very interesting set of "laws" in Eve that would have far reaching effects on all sorts of scams - banks included. Whether they would ever want such a system is unclear, at best.
Just for ***** and giggles, consider a revamped bounty system, a revamped taxation/fee system, and a revamped security status system. Consider financial reporting tools (in game). Consider character reporting tools (in game). Consider locator agents who want to help you find outlaws.
The opportunities here are truly limitless to make a character worthless (in game), or worth less, based on their actions, but only if people *want* criminality to have consequences. Combine that with an "in game" ability to check a character's SP and age and you have a functioning legal system. Of coursee, its all about consequences - not prophylaxis ....
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.07.19 22:59:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Grozen on 19/07/2010 22:59:14 i think everything is pretty clear atm.CCP doesn't want to deal with real life stuff that would breach eula. knowledge is power |
Gabriel Virtus
hirr
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Posted - 2010.07.19 23:04:00 -
[25]
Ji Sama - I didn't know that and am unfamiliar with european law; however, I am well-versed in American law and international agreements, but this issue becomes incredibly complex when dealing with certain countries. If what you say is accurate, then maybe this idea would be wonderful for Euro players. You would:
A) disallow any players from certain countries with disadvantageous law; or
B) Hope that the agreement between the players in Europe would give vicarious protection to players in countries that would be disallowed by option A.
I am guessing B would be doable.
Hexxx - Why would a 100$ a month stop players from a scam that would net thousands? Or even significantly reduce the risk of scam? Judging by how many players will spend thousands getting GTC to fun pvp or their extravagent ships, I don't know if this RL service payment would reduce risk.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster
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Posted - 2010.07.19 23:09:00 -
[26]
Quote: The other thing is of course the ESRB Teen rating that CCP looks to aim for. Obviously can't hold 13 year olds to legally binding financial contracts (I say obviously, I've no idea on Icelandic law, guessing here). In principle, nerdy spreadsheet wielding 13 year olds may be supreme space pixel fund managers (just as nerdy spreadsheet wielding 30 year olds may be atrocious fund managers) - unwise to bar spotty four-eyed accountants of the future (part of CCPs target market undoubtedly!) from a substantial part of their game.
Don't know if I made myself clear, and I am only using this quote as an example, and in no way implying it was directed at me. But when I speak of a contract, I am only talking about the managers! Hold them accountable, by a RL contract! If they live in a country where no such law exist, they have automatically excluded themselves from a position in the fictional BOD!
I also agree with some in this thread, that a large bank, should not be in the loaning business, unless loans are 110% collateralized. No special credit lines etc.
Finally I do think there is a place in eve for a bank, for the reasons syd mentioned. Its fun roleplaying, and looking at your "fake" bank account, or playing a tycoon or bankdirector etc :)
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OwlManAtt
Gallente Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.07.19 23:23:00 -
[27]
Edited by: OwlManAtt on 19/07/2010 23:24:47
Originally by: Grozen Edited by: Grozen on 19/07/2010 22:59:14 i think everything is pretty clear atm.CCP doesn't want to deal with real life stuff that would breach eula.
It was suggested that he charge RL money for additional reporting tools, not for ISK or bank accounts or anything sinister. It's like charging ten US dollars for EveWalletAware; a piece of software that runs analysis on data imported from the API.
I can't see anything in the EULA that prohibits that:
Quote: You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.
Please correct me if I'm missing something, but according to that clause, what I describe is completely permissible.
That said, what kind of reporting tools could you offer when all you're managing is the balance + interest? You can't have a RL fee for opening / maintaining the bank account and I really doubt you'd get an appreciable amount from advertisements on the bank management website. --- Owl |
Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2010.07.20 00:02:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Hexxx Primary function of the Bank; to provide financial services to the players of EVE. These include core functions such as interest bearing accounts and handling withdraws in a prompt manner.
Secondary function of the Bank; to make the person(s) running it real world money.
These primary functions seem "consumer-oriented" and might thus be something that is better suited to CCP development and the company can simply use their behind-the-scenes data to balance the new ISK source of interest payments with other factors in the economy. The secondary functions seem like something better accomplished by getting a real-life job (possibly in banking, if you're interested in the field!).
So long as the "universe" remains legally and practically owned and controlled by CCP, the company has an interest in fighting to ensure that the activity of "operating" a "bank" in that universe is also under the company's control (i.e., not outside its real-life jurisdiction). I suspect that CCP's owners would not want them to cede ownership of in-game "assets" to players. á á
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Messoroz
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Posted - 2010.07.20 00:29:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Messoroz on 20/07/2010 00:29:40 <NVM>
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cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.07.20 00:38:00 -
[30]
Assuming that CCP were to allow RL exchange of money OR that players could have RL $$ stakes in Eve corps it would be a legal minefield especially in the USA.
Gaming companies would have to be insane to allow it, I can almost see the lawyers in America rubbing their hands at the thought of it.
I thought the main point of Eve was to have fun. Soon as it stops being fun you stop playing. Why give yourself an extra headache in RL.
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