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Garreck Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.26 17:35:00 - [1] Edited by: Garreck on 26/07/2010 17:37:27 Originally by: Jade Constantine Arguably the entire alliance disband mechanism is flawed game mechanics and plenty of people have been arguing that since way before the Band of Brothers disband. But thats besides the point. Ushra'khan and their allies left CVA space completely alone during the couple of days it took for their disband issue to be resolved and went so far as to threaten to reset and attack anyone who looked likely to profit from the disband. Will CVA be making a similar gesture here or will they be supporting those who seek to profit from these game mechanics. The decision will say a lot about CVA and their leadership. But anyways, since you seem like the man with his finger on the pulse what do you say happened here? Fmercury. How did this happen? Why not tell us the story. We could go 'round and 'round (and I think you and I would actually be in agreement) about the bad state of alliance disbandment mechanics or whatever... ...but I think even you have to see, Jade, that a CVA account getting hacked and Ushra'Khan being socially engineered are two different scenarios. CVA's reaction to this will likely be more or less in accordance with the new standards of "play to win so long as it ain't against the EULA" set by Ushra'Khan when we got beat down. U'K claimed at that time (and continue to assert) that they never did and never will infiltrate us, but were happy to utilize vent info and tower passwords attained by other means. Likewise...we'll probably not pause in our efforts in Providence just because Hydra apparently pulled off a pretty decent infiltration.
Garreck Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.26 21:50:00 - [2] Originally by: Kazzzi CVA has knowingly benefited from their allies spies ever since the first time U'K held space in Provi years ago. Wrong. CVA has reported attempts at spying (offers of vent info, offers of various passwords, the typical stuff) to Ushra'Khan on a dozen occasions over the years. Right up to the point where U'K expressed to us that they felt it was okay to utilize info from spies while helping -A- beat our tails. Originally by: Kazzzi Not to mention the abuse of extended downtime mechanics to towerspam U'K out of their system back then. Oh gawd. This again? Really? Originally by: Kazzzi Where do you draw the line in your double standard of 'metagaming'? Two answers to that question, really, so I suppose it kind of is a "double standard" . There's the standard we hold our membership to, and then there's the standard to which we will petition. In our internal affairs, our standard is not to use spies to infiltrate organizations, forums, or comms. In external affairs, we will petition forms of metagaming that violate the EULA (ie account hacking.) It's really pretty simple. In this particular case, Aralis apparently had info about what was going down. We were well past the point with U'K where we felt obligated to report as we had in the past, and so Aralis did not report. He didn't say anything to any of us either. He just knew it was gonna happen. As a result, CVA has no plans in place to take advantage of the situation. Which is why continually trying to bring CVA back to the center of this is laughable. Providence is a mess right now...and we're in less of a position to take advantage successfully now as we were to defend successfully months ago. We press on doing what we've been doing. Where we would have handled this with kid gloves perhaps a year ago (or even blown the whistle on it) for now we press on as we have been doing without much concern for the act of metagaming perpetrated against U'K. I personally hope for U'K to at least be able to get their name back (I'm soft that way) but my personal hopes probably weigh as much into Hydra's plans as all the carrying on and trolling in this thread does.
Garreck Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.27 04:12:00 - [3] Originally by: Kazzzi I'm glad many spies were caught, but when your allies passed you intel and said it came from Divine visions of Amarr baby Jesus, they meant spies. The only intel ever passed by our allies to my knowledge was eyes-on tactical info in our regional security channel. Any strategic level info offered to us from spies was always forward straight to U'K leadership along with the name of the source. This was our understanding of our relationship until U'K pilots were bowling CVA POSes and acting on real-time intel garnered from our teamspeak or ventrillo. Play the game how you want, of course, but at that point we were clearly beyond the typical decorum from days of yore. Aralis was under no obligation to share the info he had in the way things had been done in the past. Originally by: Kazzzi Originally by: Garreck CVA's reaction to this will likely be more or less in accordance with the new standards of "play to win so long as it ain't against the EULA Whatever your rationale, awesome, no holds barred, we're looking forward to it. See you in space. I wasn't exactly clear in my statement. Our standards remain unchanged as regards various legal-but-questionably-ethical issues oft cried about in CAOD ("metagaming" is the usually misapplied term). We don't engage in it. That is for our own satisfaction. The change I refer to is in previously unspoken obligation by CVA leadership to U'K leadership in regards to spies targetting U'K. All that said...well, the message has been clear from U'K's end for a little while now, Kazzzi. The irony is U'K didn't need to play "dirty" to beat us in Provi, and if certain standards had been honored, this whole situation may've been called out by Aralis per previous instances if we felt that standard was still mutual.
Garreck Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.27 14:17:00 - [4] Originally by: Kazzzi By playing "dirty", are you referring to where we offered you a temp NIP, and came to the forums by the dozens to give you our best wishes, some of us even offering support when we believed you may have had your alliance disbanded by a spy? No. I'm referring to U'K's rather gleeful use of -A-'s real-time intel from vent compromise, the same use of POS passwords for bowling, and general mockery of CVA when we, at the time, proposed this was against certain gentlemen's rules U'K and CVA used to stick to (not unlike U'K's implications now that Aralis knowing of U'K's imminent demise is a similar breach of those rules.) You guys are free to play the game how you want, but you clearly demonstrated to CVA that previous decorum no longer need apply. Now you cry that Aralis had prior knowledge and didn't pass it on as he surely would have in the past. That's a situation of U'K's own creation. We don't seek and won't seek revenge 'cause that's just not our style. We had our day in the sun and we blew it when we thought our coallition was strong enough to invade -A- space. That turned out to be a fairly staggering miscalculation. So long as Aralis is at the helm, we'll be working in Providence...but we won't let our organizational identity be driven by some crazy sense of righteous vengeance.
Garreck Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:00:00 - [5] Originally by: Jade Constantine I don't think you get to claim "UK did this first" with any credibilty given the CVA's use of downtime tower spam cheese to take the UK's stations in Providence all those years ago Garreck. I'm really not concerned about who started what at this point; the conversation (particularly mis/disinformation about the tower spam in 9uy) is old and tired. At this point, the lack of organizational respect through special rules is very obviously mutual, and I'm less saying U'K "started" it with their actions with -A-, and more saying U'K "affirmed" it with those actions. Or: given our organizations' recent histories and comments and sentiments affirmed by U'K most recently, it's comical for U'K to whine that Aralis had knowledge of what was going to happen and did nothing to protect U'K per the previous (and oft mocked by newer U'K influences) gentlemen's understanding. Originally by: Jade Constantine But I do think its probably a good thing in general that CVA is now acknowleding that Amarrian Nationalism is something that works well with treachery, scumbags and general dishonest manipulation of enemies where military force cannot work. This is well recorded in the prime fiction and reflected in lots of amarr missions in-game etc, though I'm sure CAOD doesn't want to listen to you and I wax poetic about lawful good, chaotic good, chaotic evil, and what makes good internet spaceship opera. There are lots of expressions/interpretations of loyalty to God, Empire, and Empress in the Amarrian's corner of Eve. Originally by: Jade Constantine I find it entirely fitting you would use a traitor to achieve your ends. Oops. But...we didn't. Hydra did. Without our sponsorship, urging, or cooperation, and with only Aralis' last-minute knowledge and silence (even internally) on the matter. Whether or not I agree that Amarrians play dirty in the fiction of Eve, that particular kind of dirty is not how CVA runs business. Of course that does bring us back to "we will continue operations in Providence per the norm without regard to U'K's misfortune." So you could more accurately say we will (attempt to...capability is a whole other discussion) use the treachery of others and the misfortune of our enemy to achieve our ends.
Garreck Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.27 22:18:00 - [6] Originally by: Kazzzi We stopped bothering to let you know Conveniently enough for the purposes of this discussion, eh? You still think this is a discussion about who "started it," and I'm beginning to feel like I'm speaking another language or something. The point remains Aralis had no obligation, by any standard, to tell U'K what he knew, and U'K blaming CVA for Hyrda's independent actions is cognitive dissonance at best and staggering hypocrisy at worst. Maybe I'm being trolled?
Garreck Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.27 22:39:00 - [7] Originally by: General Windypops Aralis and yourself, however, have shown that you prefer to win through director level disbands than through genuine victory. Originally by: General Windypops The puzzling bit is your attemt to retrospectively paint CVA as the injured party... Aha. Definitely getting trolled now, as I've stated exactly the opposite of each of these assertions multiple times.
Garreck Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.27 22:47:00 - [8] Originally by: Kazzzi just saying your people have no business proclaiming their holier than thou attitude. And your people have no business proclaiming we proclaim a holier than thou attitude. Our standards are our own, and for ourselves. We don't expect our enemies to encumber themselves with the same standards, and we've stopped expecting this from ushra'khan for some time as well. That's not an indictment. It just is. We had gentlemen's rules, now we don't. We can sit here all day and cry "you started it" without getting anywhere, which is why I was quick to steer the conversation away from that pointless line of bla-dee-bla, but you and yours seem really insistant on keeping it there. D-G? When has that been thrown around by CVA? You're the one who keeps bringing it up as if it's relevant at all to this conversation, to YOUR pilot's betrayal, to HYDRA's schemes, and to U'K's demise.
Garreck Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.27 23:05:00 - [9] Originally by: General Windypops Garreck, I've always had more time for you than for most you crew precisely BECAUSE you have usually been straight up. I can't be any more straight up than to say we had nothing to do with Hydra's plan and from where I sit Aralis had no obligation even by long-held CVA standards to tell U'K what was coming due to (now clearly demonstrated) degredation of relations between CVA and U'K. That's my straight-up "take" on all of this. I'm really confused about what we've "won" here, because at the end of the day, U'K no longer existing doesn't change CVA's strategic readiness and capability one little bit. Besides, our goal has never been the destruction of U'K such that even their name was no longer theirs, so seeing that happen is not a victory of any kind. What do we do about it? Stop playing the game? Because everybody else uses spies or buys off disgruntled members or metagames etc and we don't? By logging in and playing we ALL accept that treacherous crap goes down in Eve all the time. We're all indirectly complicit in it because nothing happens in this game that doesn't affect dozens of organizations directly or indirectly, whether those organizations want to be affected or not. No, we just press forward, play our way, and stick to our rules 'cause that makes us feel warm and fuzzy.
Garreck Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.27 23:13:00 - [10] Originally by: Kazzzi D-G is where your pilots claim we did much of the naughty stuff they like to complain about. I was unaware it had been brought up in this thread or any others regarding U'K's demise, or indeed any thread involving U'K and CVA at all. Our beef in D-G is solely with CCP, and we've written it off as FCs making ill-advised decisions optimistically and unrealistically hoping for adequate server performance. Y'know, just for the record

Garreck Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.27 23:37:00 - [11] Originally by: General Windypops You've admitted you knew. Aralis knew, yes. And he told nobody about it. And CVA had nothing to do with the plan. It's pretty straight-forward, really.
Garreck Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.27 23:43:00 - [12] Originally by: Kazzzi post 339 and pretty much every time I talk to a cva member it gets brought up Aha. I see the confusion. This is not a D-G issue; it was an every-system-in-Providence issue, Kazzzi. And yeah, we do bring it up quite a bit. Not to get into a back-and-forth of who started what, but to illustrate why we feel old decorum no longer applies (it obviously didn't then.) Specific to this discussion, I mention it as the reason Aralis was not obligated to tell Ushra'Khan of the tragedy heading their way.

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