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T1coon
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Posted - 2010.07.27 13:33:00 -
[1]
I apologize if this doesn't belong in this forum, but can someone tell me whether Hulk BPO's exist or whether they are one of the ships that are invent-only? Thanks.
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Arous Drephius
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Posted - 2010.07.27 13:38:00 -
[2]
Yes, they exist.
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Julian McGavern
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Posted - 2010.07.27 13:38:00 -
[3]
They do exist, albeit in few numbers. The were part of the t2 bpo lottery, most of the hulks in production today are from invention.
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.27 14:07:00 -
[4]
I believe one method to discover if there were any T2 BPO issued is to look on the market. You won't find any for sale, but if there is an entry for the BPO, it was available at one time.
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RaTTuS
BIG
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.07.27 14:31:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Tau Cabalander
I believe one method to discover if there were any T2 BPO issued is to look on the market. You won't find any for sale, but if there is an entry for the BPO, it was available at one time.
not for everyhing
--
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 14:43:00 -
[6]
This is one of the areas where newer players are really abused.'
Once upon a time, you signed up with R&D agents and earned points toward a lottary. The points were used to participate in a lottary with the prixes being T2 BPOs.
When the lottary went away, and was relaced with the insanely annoying clickfest that is invention, the existing BPOs were left in the game.
Because there is no R&D cost and because these BPOs can be researched where as the invented BPOs have absolute SUCK ME, holders of these BPOs have a production cost of about half that of inventors.
T2 BPO = EVE industrial in easy mode, and new players are screwed. It is insanely unfair, but CCCP has repeatedly given the middle finger to newer players' concerns. No matter how hard we work or how long we play, we can never compete on a level playing field.
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.07.27 14:51:00 -
[7]
Oh, delightful. I was worried that there would be a shortage of forum tears now that Hulkageddon is over, but just when things were looking really grim, Tarawa decided to save the day by derailing yet another thread with his classic T2 BPO sob-a-thon shtick.
My hero.
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Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 15:29:00 -
[8]
Edited by: LHA Tarawa on 27/07/2010 15:30:08
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
yet another thread with his classic T2 BPO sob-a-thon shtick.
My hero.
Until they go away man, until they go away.
The disparity between T2 BPO give away to older players, and T2 invention for newer players is completely unacceptable. It shall not stand.
New players need to know how they are being abused so that they will emo rage quit because that is the only way we can get CCP to do anything about this great evil of the universe.
I'm just making sure all new players know how screwed they are.l
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Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.07.27 16:09:00 -
[9]
Oh come on... emo rage quit over the fact that T2 BPOs exist? Are you serious? Maybe I'm not enough of a die-hard industrialist, but of all things that would make me ever emo rage quit... T2 BPOs are so far at the bottom of the barrel.
That's on par with threatening to emo rage quit if CCP fixed the lag during huge fleet fights because you could no longer win by crashing the node. Serioulsy, this is such a minor, minor issue.
Honestly, T2 BPOs let me have the T2 modules and ships I crave at a cheap price. I'm not going to ask CCP to drive up the price on those items I like simply because you feel the T2 BPOs are so brutal and over powering. Sorry but this is so not going to happen.
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Seith Silverstein
Something Rotten
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Posted - 2010.07.27 16:18:00 -
[10]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
This is one of the areas where newer players are really abused.'
Once upon a time, you signed up with R&D agents and earned points toward a lottary. The points were used to participate in a lottary with the prixes being T2 BPOs.
When the lottary went away, and was relaced with the insanely annoying clickfest that is invention, the existing BPOs were left in the game.
Because there is no R&D cost and because these BPOs can be researched where as the invented BPOs have absolute SUCK ME, holders of these BPOs have a production cost of about half that of inventors.
T2 BPO = EVE industrial in easy mode, and new players are screwed. It is insanely unfair, but CCCP has repeatedly given the middle finger to newer players' concerns. No matter how hard we work or how long we play, we can never compete on a level playing field.
Try making a ton of ISK and buying a BPO. Then if you're still ****ed off you can complain more. T2 BPOs are the absolute top-end of industry production. You're lucky CCP lets you get in on the T2 production market at all.
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
I am literally the internet
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.27 16:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia
Oh come on... emo rage quit over the fact that T2 BPOs exist? Are you serious? Maybe I'm not enough of a die-hard industrialist, but of all things that would make me ever emo rage quit... T2 BPOs are so far at the bottom of the barrel.
Just ignore him. He's not smart enough to figure out which items are profitable to invent.
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.27 16:30:00 -
[12]
Oh look. It's this thread again.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Andalael
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Posted - 2010.07.27 16:31:00 -
[13]
most of the die hard players are pvp:ers who are gonna ***** and whine (much like we industrialists are doing right now) if the prices on their precious t2 ships go up
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LordThyGod
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:19:00 -
[14]
Yes the bpo holders will make a far better margin, but they can not come anywhere near the saturation point of the market. If your having a hard time making a decent profit, its not because of the bpos, but because there are a 1000 other inventors trying to make the same item as you. Also you need to try to find cheaper sources for your materials. Now the faction bpos cruiser bpos that dropped that one week, those deff saturated the market quick. Was nice being able to make a cynabal for what 4-6 mill per... but alas it turned out to be a bug and they took all of them away....
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:25:00 -
[15]
Harro! |
LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Andalael
most of the die hard players are pvp:ers who are gonna ***** and whine (much like we industrialists are doing right now) if the prices on their precious t2 ships go up
Won't happen for most ships, in fact, prices could easily come down.
1) Invention is by far the cheaper portion of the ship, with the moon mats making up the larger portion of the price.
2) Price is set at the marginal demand, which is currently invention for most items. Let's say it costs 1 ISK to make a widget with a T2 BPO and 2 ISK to make it with invention (more minerals with suck ME and no cost of invention). Let's say that demand at 3 ISK x widget and = supply at 3 ISK = x widgets, so that is how many get made. Now say that there are only enough T2 BPOs for widgets to produce 1/2 x. Well, the BPO holders make 2 ISK per widget and the inventers make 1 ISK per widget.
Some say that the fact I can make 1 ISK per widget means that I should be fine that someone else is makeing 2 ISK per simply because they started playing before me. I could not disagree more. Given enough time and effort, I should be able to compete on a level playing field in any given activity. T2 BPOs are currently the exception to this.
Remove the T2 BPOs, and you simply have more made through invention at lower profits for all, and ALL IS a level playing field.
3) When T2 BPOs are removed, there is no reason to not allow the PE and ME (all or some fraction) of the BPC to be passed through invention (which isn't done right now to maintain the insane advantage of T2 BPOs over invention). Reduce the demand for moon minerals, and prices could eaisly take a significant drop, not increase.
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Lars Scanier
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Andalael
most of the die hard players are pvp:ers who are gonna ***** and whine (much like we industrialists are doing right now) if the prices on their precious t2 ships go up
Won't happen for most ships, in fact, prices could easily come down.
1) Invention is by far the cheaper portion of the ship, with the moon mats making up the larger portion of the price.
2) Price is set at the marginal demand, which is currently invention for most items. Let's say it costs 1 ISK to make a widget with a T2 BPO and 2 ISK to make it with invention (more minerals with suck ME and no cost of invention). Let's say that demand at 3 ISK x widget and = supply at 3 ISK = x widgets, so that is how many get made. Now say that there are only enough T2 BPOs for widgets to produce 1/2 x. Well, the BPO holders make 2 ISK per widget and the inventers make 1 ISK per widget.
Some say that the fact I can make 1 ISK per widget means that I should be fine that someone else is makeing 2 ISK per simply because they started playing before me. I could not disagree more. Given enough time and effort, I should be able to compete on a level playing field in any given activity. T2 BPOs are currently the exception to this.
Remove the T2 BPOs, and you simply have more made through invention at lower profits for all, and ALL IS a level playing field.
3) When T2 BPOs are removed, there is no reason to not allow the PE and ME (all or some fraction) of the BPC to be passed through invention (which isn't done right now to maintain the insane advantage of T2 BPOs over invention). Reduce the demand for moon minerals, and prices could eaisly take a significant drop, not increase.
The problem is on almost all smaller items and probably 90% of T2 items in the game, the cost of invention and materials for your 3 Isk widget, is 5 Isk. So while MAYBE the cost of a few ships and few high end T2 things would go down (doubtful), the vast majority would go up, significantly, as well as supply would drop.
So basic economics says if supply drops, prices will rise.
You really think if T2 BPO's are removed from the game that masses of people are going to flock to invention to counter?
I don't think so.
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Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:05:00 -
[18]
"3) When T2 BPOs are removed, there is no reason to not allow the PE and ME (all or some fraction) of the BPC to be passed through invention (which isn't done right now to maintain the insane advantage of T2 BPOs over invention). Reduce the demand for moon minerals, and prices could eaisly take a significant drop, not increase."
Ah, I see the angle now. You have a bunch of well researched T1 BPOs and you want to make them profitable for your T2 inventing.
My question is, how would this be fair to the new player who does not have the T1 BPO collection that is well researched? Yes, given time they could catch up to you, but that assumes you would remain static, not constantly improving your own BPOs. So really, sorry, sounds like now you are just hoping to nerf the T2 BPOs so you can gain an advantage over other players.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:26:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia
My question is, how would this be fair to the new player who does not have the T1 BPO collection that is well researched? Yes, given time they could catch up to you, but that assumes you would remain static, not constantly improving your own BPOs. So really, sorry, sounds like now you are just hoping to nerf the T2 BPOs so you can gain an advantage over other players.
With ME, there comes a point where waste has been completely removed, or atleast is now longer reasonible to continue to work to remove.
Once I have my T1 rifter BPO researched to 30000 ME, there really isn't any reason to research it further....
Therefore, a newb that has researched his rifter BPO to 25 and is producing jags for about 400 ISK more than me... or something like .003% more exspensive is on what I'd call a "pretty level playing field".
But, if he really wants to make Jags for the exact same price as me, he could spend an extra 2 months to get perfect ME....
EVE should be (and is in all other areas) about newbs eventually being able to reasonibly compete with older players in any activity, given sufficient time and focus. T2 BPOs are the one area where this is not true.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:28:00 -
[20]
LHA is a total noob cake.
1. If he genuinely has no financial angle he is someone who wants to turn eve "fair". Whatever the .... That means.
2. If he isnt part of the "make eve fair" brigade he has a financial stake in seeing them removed. He wouldnt hesitate 2 seconds to benefit off their removal. Just like if i had given this total tool 5 T2 bpos 6 months ago he wouldnt be such a tool now.
Tbh though i cant compare LHA to others because most everyone else knows they can buy them overtime.... Like i did. |
LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:39:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jovialmadness
LHA is a total noob cake.
1. If he genuinely has no financial angle he is someone who wants to turn eve "fair". Whatever the .... That means.
I want EVE to be a game where, given enough time and focus, ANY player can compete on a level playing field with ANY other player.
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Tbh though i cant compare LHA to others because most everyone else knows they can buy them overtime.... Like i did.
Buy one, then calculate that cost into the prodution of the ships that can be produced over a reasonible amount of time (like 5 years of playing EVE), and you are at the same price as if you made them with invention.
The older players get to cash in their insanely massive, competative advantage in a single transaction rather than spending years cashing in.
How does this level the playing field? It deosn't.
T2 BPOs MUCH be removed from the game. The only question is how current holders should be compensated.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:39:00 -
[22]
ON AVERAGE, 9 OUT OF 10 HULKS ARE MANUFACTURED FROM INVENTED BPCs RATHER THAN BPOs
So, yeah, Hulk BPOs exist, and they ARE the single most valuable T2 BPOs in the entire game right now (value-wise, not actual sales price), but they still don't really matter since the vast majority of the market is covered by invention.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:50:00 -
[23]
LHA therevis only one thing certain. Tech 2 bpo removal isnt. Whether or not incarna actually happens isnt. Your spewed socialistic childish garbage rants are assured. |
Ruziel
Minmatar
Twilight Military Industrial Complex
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:56:00 -
[24]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
With ME, there comes a point where waste has been completely removed, or atleast is now longer reasonible to continue to work to remove.
Once I have my T1 rifter BPO researched to 30000 ME, there really isn't any reason to research it further....
Therefore, a newb that has researched his rifter BPO to 25 and is producing jags for about 400 ISK more than me... or something like .003% more exspensive is on what I'd call a "pretty level playing field".
But, if he really wants to make Jags for the exact same price as me, he could spend an extra 2 months to get perfect ME....
And just to show how far out of reality the numbers you have pulled out thin air:
Perfect ME on a Rifter: 4014
Base Time for ME 25: 4w6d17h20m
Minimum Time for ME 25: 2w5d12h45m
Base Time for ME 4014: 15y32w1d
Minimum Time for ME 4104: 8y40w6d
So a bit more than an "extra 2 months". What does that extra 8 years, 28 weeks save you?
79 Tritanium
21 Pyerite
7 Mexallon
1 Isogen
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:04:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jovialmadness
LHA therevis only one thing certain. Tech 2 bpo removal isnt. Whether or not incarna actually happens isnt. Your spewed socialistic childish garbage rants are assured.
Please define "socailism". I don't think that word means what you think it means.
I'm not talking about CCP taking all BPOs and manufactruring from them, and then districuting the production out to all equally.
I'm talking about a game mechanic that was HALF-way fixed. Lottery sucked, so it was fixed. But the HALF-FIX created a masive disparity between those that player during lottery and those that started playing the game after. It is WAY PAST time that the rest of the broken game mechanic be resolved.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
I'm talking about a game mechanic that was HALF-way fixed. Lottery sucked, so it was fixed. But the HALF-FIX created a masive disparity between those that player during lottery and those that started playing the game after. It is WAY PAST time that the rest of the broken game mechanic be resolved.
I see you're conveniently ignoring the widely accepted assumption that most of the T2 BPOs are no longer in the hands of those that obtained them via the lottery.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:18:00 -
[27]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Oh, delightful. I was worried that there would be a shortage of forum tears now that Hulkageddon is over, but just when things were looking really grim, Tarawa decided to save the day by derailing yet another thread with his classic T2 BPO sob-a-thon shtick.
My hero.
He's my hero too! Perhaps we should form a fanclub..?
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Enthral
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:36:00 -
[28]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
T2 BPO = EVE industrial in easy mode, and new players are screwed. It is insanely unfair, but CCCP has repeatedly given the middle finger to newer players' concerns. No matter how hard we work or how long we play, we can never compete on a level playing field.
Why don't you tell people about the actual lottery itself? Multiple accounts, all character slots filled, grinding for standings so you could run as many R&D agents as possible--only to get nothing after months and months.
Regardless, you're full of it. I have several T2 BPO's, none of which I got from the lottery. I got them with hard work. I would venture that most T2 BPO's have long since been purchased by other, non-lottery, players.
These are the people you want to screw. The people who worked hard to get them, even though they weren't lucky in the lottery.
But go ahead and substitute self-righteous indignation for hard work and a drive for success; people like you always win in the end. It is easier to blame someone else's success on some sort of cosmic injustice, than face the fact that you might just not be as competent and capable of success as everyone else.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.07.27 21:17:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 27/07/2010 21:44:13
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Jovialmadness
LHA therevis only one thing certain. Tech 2 bpo removal isnt. Whether or not incarna actually happens isnt. Your spewed socialistic childish garbage rants are assured.
Please define "socailism". I don't think that word means what you think it means.
I'm not talking about CCP taking all BPOs and manufactruring from them, and then districuting the....and more garbage.
I methotically owned you the last time this trash sprung up. If you want to get re-owned please refer to your previous fail threads.
Thanks
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 22:26:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 27/07/2010 21:44:13
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Please define "socailism". I don't think that word means what you think it means.
I methotically owned you the last time this trash sprung up. If you want to get re-owned please refer to your previous fail threads.
That is the oddest definition of socialism I've ever heard.
I'd go with:
theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
Suggesting that NO ONE own T2 BPOs. How does that fit the definition of them being owned and controlled by the community as a whole?
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 22:33:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Enthral
Why don't you tell people about the actual lottery itself? Multiple accounts, all character slots filled, grinding for standings so you could run as many R&D agents as possible--only to get nothing after months and months.
Yes, yes... The game mechanic was horrid. Too great of a reward handed to too few while the majority received not for their labor.
Unfortunatly, the f'd mechanic was only half fixed. The lottery was removed, but the resulting inequalities were left to fester like an infected sliver.
Originally by: Enthral
Regardless, you're full of it. I have several T2 BPO's, none of which I got from the lottery. I got them with hard work. I would venture that most T2 BPO's have long since been purchased by other, non-lottery, players.
These are the people you want to screw. The people who worked hard to get them, even though they weren't lucky in the lottery.
I don't want to screw anyone.
I want to come up with ideas for adequite compensation of the current T2 BPO holders. Perhaps convert all T2 BPOs to BPCs with a number of copies equal to 5 years of full use.
What I want is for T2 BPOs to be removed as they screw any new player. Invention is a messed up game mechanic, and it can't be fixed because fixing it would screw the T1 BPO holders. The T2 BPOs must be removed, but it needs to be done in a way that doesn't screw anyone.
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Nobzy
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Posted - 2010.07.27 22:55:00 -
[32]
LHA this has already been mentioned, (and systematically ignored), your major gripe is that new players can't compete against t2 bpo owners, yet like before mentioned, most if not all t2 bpos have since changed hands from their original lottery winners to new buyers.
These buyers bought them with considerable isk, the fact that they are now in possession of them, is no way unfair toward anyone. The only thing that can be considered unfair is the fact that the original owner got lots of money out of thin air by being lucky and selling the bpo.
If I keep my eyes out and find a t2 bpo deal, invest a vast amount of money in to it that I have myself earned, and turn it in to profit, it's something any new player can do as well, when they have amassed the same wealth I did, and kept their eyes open as I did.
It's no way you can sell this as unfair.
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Enthral
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Posted - 2010.07.27 23:06:00 -
[33]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
What I want is for T2 BPOs to be removed as they screw any new player. Invention is a messed up game mechanic, and it can't be fixed because fixing it would screw the T1 BPO holders. The T2 BPOs must be removed, but it needs to be done in a way that doesn't screw anyone.
What you continue to ignore, is the fact that T2 BPO's CAN still be acquired, regardless of whether a character received one in the lottery or not. So your concept of being "screwed" is obviously requiring someone to work hard towards a goal.
My definition of "screwed", however, is diminishing the value (once again!) of something I worked very hard to obtain, because of your self righteous crusades for the poor, "screwed" newbie.
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Emporer Norton
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Posted - 2010.07.28 00:17:00 -
[34]
You would think people would say allow invention with bpos to produce bpo's or some other mechanic to acquire them but no they always say take out the bpo's why? cause they know invention is better in all ways except for me/pe
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.07.28 00:53:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 28/07/2010 00:55:41
Quote:
Socialists advocate a method of compensation based on individual merit or the amount of labour one contributes to society.[5] They generally share the view that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and derives its wealth through a system of exploitation. They argue that this creates an unequal society that fails to provide equal opportunities for everyone to maximise their potential,[6] and does not utilise technology and resources to their maximum potential in the interests of the public
LHA you seriously need to STFU and leave.
Owned again.
Edit: yea thats straight out of Wiki but i tried simply telling you now maybe you will maybe...possibly...hopefully STFU now. You wont though. I could tell you that when the sun goes down it goes dark. You would still argue there is some light. I could tell you blood is red. You would say its pink with a hint of purple and orange blended. I could tell you guns dont kill but people do and you will say no guns kill. You would argue these facts because you are a moron and your opinions are horrid. |
Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.07.28 09:31:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Ophelia Ursus on 28/07/2010 09:33:45
Two obvious truisms:
i) The T2 lottery was a terrible piece of game design; CCP were bad and they should feel bad
ii) With the current state of the game, most T2 BPOs are rather unattractive, offering negligible annual returns. A guy I know is selling a reasonably popular ammo BPO. 4b for a BPO that nets maybe 1.3b/year. I can make more than that *per month* running invention with a single character, with a significantly smaller capital investment. Who cares?
Signature removed. |
Fumitsugu Sylwia
Guristech
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Posted - 2010.07.28 09:56:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 28/07/2010 00:55:41
Quote:
Socialists advocate a method of compensation based on individual merit or the amount of labour one contributes to society.[5] They generally share the view that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and derives its wealth through a system of exploitation. They argue that this creates an unequal society that fails to provide equal opportunities for everyone to maximise their potential,[6] and does not utilise technology and resources to their maximum potential in the interests of the public
LHA you seriously need to STFU and leave.
Owned again.
Edit: yea thats straight out of Wiki but i tried simply telling you now maybe you will maybe...possibly...hopefully STFU now. You wont though. I could tell you that when the sun goes down it goes dark. You would still argue there is some light. I could tell you blood is red. You would say its pink with a hint of purple and orange blended. I could tell you guns dont kill but people do and you will say no guns kill. You would argue these facts because you are a moron and your opinions are horrid.
<3 Jovial  ...
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Edited by: Ophelia Ursus on 28/07/2010 09:33:45
Two obvious truisms:
i) The T2 lottery was a terrible piece of game design; CCP were bad and they should feel bad
ii) With the current state of the game, most T2 BPOs are rather unattractive, offering negligible annual returns. A guy I know is selling a reasonably popular ammo BPO. 4b for a BPO that nets maybe 1.3b/year. I can make more than that *per month* running invention with a single character, with a significantly smaller capital investment. Who cares?
...And this. Who cares about margin per unit if you can make and sell 10 times as many units in the same time period? (woops, Tarawa obviously)
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LadyZelda
Ordo Nigrorum Susurri
Ordo Magna
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Posted - 2010.07.28 10:13:00 -
[38]
I don't care about the amount of unfairness/unfairity that exists in EVE. Much more exists in the real world.
It is a game and if people can have fun by inventing (excitement: "Will I get a succesrate of over 50% on my T2 frig invention jobs), and building the ships (wow I make a decent margin on a T2 frigate), why bother with the guy with the BPO who can only dedicate one slot for the production of his T2 frig, while I can use 10.
True the BPO-owner can buy more T2 BPO's but if he is willing to invest such a vast amount of money into it, he deserves the lower ME.
Quit whining and start inventing.
Damn and now I realize I just did what the OP wanted. People actually discussing this with him.
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My Postman
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Posted - 2010.07.28 11:18:00 -
[39]
The fact that there are several threads like "Remove BPO, T2 Hulk BPO, and itŠs counterpart doesŠnt make it more interesting.
Creating a "T2 Ishkur BPO needs to be removed" thread, wonŠt help either (donŠt know if even exists)
We got your point, LHA, and i do understand that "holders" donŠt like to give up andvantage (equally if Lottery winner or billion isk buyer).
Get over it. Or donŠt. But please no more threads about it.
Fake edit: I donŠt have any T2 BPO, and i donŠt want any. Beside of the Hulk BPO possibly.
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LordThyGod
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Posted - 2010.07.28 18:47:00 -
[40]
Its' not the t2 bpo holders killing your margins, its every other inventor that has a cheaper supply of materials than you, hell half the time you cant make a profit on well researched t1 bpos unless you have a good source for minerals. And if you already min your own mins/moons ect chances are your valuing your time for such materials higher than the "my time is free" crowd.
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Mal Lokrano
Gallente
The Executives
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.29 02:12:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Mal Lokrano on 29/07/2010 02:12:39
Sorry wrong thread.
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When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two.
Don't bug me ingame about diplomats, I don't know wh |
Jiao Zelig
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Posted - 2010.07.29 03:55:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Jiao Zelig on 29/07/2010 03:55:33
This is not only an issue for Tech 2 BPOs/BPCs, Tech 2 invention is weird in general since it requires a Tech 1 BPC but it doesn't matter what Tech 1 BPC is provided.
There is certainly some way to let ME/PE carry over to the Tech 2 BPC without being OP or seriously damaging Tech 2 BPO values. Some formula that would get 0 ME Tech 1 BPC to -4 ME Tech 2 BPC with diminishing returns would at least give an advantage to someone using a more valuable Tech 1 BPC. Such as MET2 = MET1^(.5) - 4. So a Tech 1 ME of 10 would become Tech 2 ME of -1 and a Tech 1 ME of 100 would become Tech 2 ME of 7.
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2010.07.29 04:38:00 -
[43]
Did anyone ever consider that T2 BPOs can be a major hindrance compared to Invention.
When the great nano-nerf came out, there was a HUGE drop in demand for Vagabonds. I happen to know that one person who had that particular BPO lost a significant part of his income (income he generally invests right back into a venture that benefits many of Eve's players). The inventors of Vagabonds, simply dropped out of the market and went and invented something else. Meanwhile the BPO owners were left holding a multi-billion ISK investment that was producing nothing in the way of income.
Many will say "boo-hoo, poor little rich kid lost his trust fund". Consider though, that many have worked hard and invested into these assets, at some considerable risk to themselves. It's not just a case of having been given a gift, it can become a millstone at the blink of a CCP eye.
Inventors have invested comparatively little into their venture. At the very least, inventors have invested into things that are far more versatile than a T2 BPO. They will simply take their skills and decryptors and datacores, etc. and go invent something that's profitable instead.
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Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.07.29 07:53:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Originally by: Wikipedia
Socialists advocate a method of compensation based on individual merit or the amount of labour one contributes to society.[5] They generally share the view that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and derives its wealth through a system of exploitation. They argue that this creates an unequal society that fails to provide equal opportunities for everyone to maximise their potential,[6] and does not utilise technology and resources to their maximum potential in the interests of the public
LHA you seriously need to STFU and leave.
In the meantime, you might want to find a definition of Socialism, as opposed to a summary of the opinions of Socialists. Such as, for example, the introductory paragraph of the Wikipedia article you quoted:
Originally by: Wikipedia
Socialism is an economic and political theory based on public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources.
Contrast this with LHA Tarawa's definition:
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
I'd go with:
theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
I don't see how any of LHA Tarawa's commentary can be construed as "socialist" except by mistakenly taking the "Socialists advocate ..." quotation as some sort of definition of Socialism. Just because you rail against the people who are perceived to have some advantage, doesn't make you a socialist.
The "advantage" of a BPO is illusory since the owner has paid a huge premium to access the BPO, said premium being amortised over the entire production that owner will ever achieve using that BPO. If that BPO loses value, the owner has still lost the premium they paid for access to it.
Claims that T2 BPOs are somehow an unfair advantage over T2 invention always rely on ignoring the up-front cost of T2 BPO ownership.
So while I agree with your sentiment that LHA Tarawa should keep this "remove T2 BPO" nonsense to himself, you should be careful about what you quote as a "definition" of something. Especially when that something is Socialism, which you clearly do not understand as anything other than a label in the same bucket of slinging-mud as "homosexual," "Hello Kitty fan" and "Canadian."
In the meantime, I propose a purely Capitalistic approach to the "T2 BPO Problem" - that is, form a corporation to attract venture capital for the purpose of buying out all existing T2 BPOs for the sole purpose of destroying them. I'm sure there are dozens of inventors out there who would like T2 BPOs removed from the game and would be willing to contribute a few million ISK to the project.
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[Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.07.29 16:27:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Originally by: Wikipedia
Socialists advocate a method of compensation based on individual merit or the amount of labour one contributes to society.[5] They generally share the view that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and derives its wealth through a system of exploitation. They argue that this creates an unequal society that fails to provide equal opportunities for everyone to maximise their potential,[6] and does not utilise technology and resources to their maximum potential in the interests of the public
LHA you seriously need to STFU and leave.
In the meantime, you might want to find a definition of Socialism, as opposed to a summary of the opinions of Socialists. Such as, for example, the introductory paragraph of the Wikipedia article you quoted:
Originally by: Wikipedia
Socialism is an economic and political theory based on public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources.
Contrast this with LHA Tarawa's definition:
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
I'd go with:
theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
I don't see how any of LHA Tarawa's commentary can be construed as "socialist" except by mistakenly taking the "Socialists advocate ..." quotation as some sort of definition of Socialism. Just because you rail against the people who are perceived to have some advantage, doesn't make you a socialist.
The "advantage" of a BPO is illusory since the owner has paid a huge premium to access the BPO, said premium being amortised over the entire production that owner will ever achieve using that BPO. If that BPO loses value, the owner has still lost the premium they paid for access to it.
Claims that T2 BPOs are somehow an unfair advantage over T2 invention always rely on ignoring the up-front cost of T2 BPO ownership.
So while I agree with your sentiment that LHA Tarawa should keep this "remove T2 BPO" nonsense to himself, you should be careful about what you quote as a "definition" of something. Especially when that something is Socialism, which you clearly do not understand as anything other than a label in the same bucket of slinging-mud as "homosexual," "Hello Kitty fan" and "Canadian."
In the meantime, I propose a purely Capitalistic approach to the "T2 BPO Problem" - that is, form a corporation to attract venture capital for the purpose of buying out all existing T2 BPOs for the sole purpose of destroying them. I'm sure there are dozens of inventors out there who would like T2 BPOs removed from the game and would be willing to contribute a few million ISK to the project.
I DO NOT need to becareful. The views expressed in generally EVERY mmo are NOT capitalistic but border on socialist and/or communistic ideals when it comes to equality in these types of games. You nitpicking BS statements and completely not understanding the basic attitude of how players typically act in mmo's concerning fairness has forced me to pull the ownage stick out on you as well.
The sheer reason that ccp has created a game that is closer to a freemarket society with unique items present is why we are having these repetitive useless gripe sessions.
Those WITHOUT want equality and to achieve that ccp MUST TAKE from others.
Now you go look up a bunch of definitions on that. Whateva.... |
Bath Sheeba
Gallente
Another Success Story
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Posted - 2010.07.30 22:24:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Bath Sheeba on 30/07/2010 22:24:46
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
...
Because there is no R&D cost and because these BPOs can be researched where as the invented BPOs have absolute SUCK ME, holders of these BPOs have a production cost of about half that of inventors.
HHAHAHA
Cost to build a hulk from BPO with ME of 30(perfect no waste): 25,872,432.39 ISK
Cost to build a hulk from BPC with ME of -4(invention default): 32,151,040.90 ISK
Cost of a hulk on the market: 129,000,000.00 ISK
Sooo....BPO holders get what 7 mil more profits on the sale?
Do the numbers before you spout off nonsense like "1/2 the production cost".
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