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Fixing Destroyers

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I'm Down	Posted - 2010.07.28 02:45:00 - [1] Destroyers are probably the most wasted t1 ship in game. There have been many threads on how to fix them, but the answer is pretty simple. Coercer +1 mid +2 Low + 90 PG + 50 CPU This allows the Coercer to use the highest teir Frigate guns, fit a small tank, and actually have a usable mid slot. Cormorant 50% optimal changed to 50% missile velocity per level 7 Missile Hardpoints +2 low +1 Mid +20 CPU +65 PG Catalist Change the falloff to a 5% ROF bonus +1 low +2 Mid +75 PG + 55 CPU Thrasher +1 low +2 med +45 PG +60 CPU Also for all destroyers, a 5-10 sig reduction, and a 10-15 boost to base speed. These changes actually put the ships in proper alignment as a midpoint between frigate and cruiser similar to how BCs are a midpoint from cruiser to BS. The extra lows and mids allow for more diverse fittings and a small boost to tank while not making these ships uber hard to kill. You know the current fitting system is sorta borked when most t1 frigates have similar or more lows and mids than the next teir up of ship.
SheriffFruitfly	Posted - 2010.07.28 02:51:00 - [2] Edited by: SheriffFruitfly on 28/07/2010 02:57:30 I'm not sure I understand how your proposed changes make dessies any better at looting/salvaging. __________________________________________________________ Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
afonsoericeira Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.07.28 02:58:00 - [3] Originally by: SheriffFruitfly Edited by: SheriffFruitfly on 28/07/2010 02:57:30 I'm not sure I understand how your proposed changes make dessies any better at looting/salvaging. moar cpu moar pg moar salvagers!
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.07.28 03:08:00 - [4] You should rename the thread "making the few viable assault frigates pointless". Destroyers are fine, not supported.
Xi Dra'Gaan	Posted - 2010.07.28 03:51:00 - [5] Edited by: Xi Dra''Gaan on 28/07/2010 03:51:16 Originally by: Omara Otawan You should rename the thread "making the few viable assault frigates pointless". Destroyers are fine, not supported. Destroyers are anything but fine. Their only real function is as a small-time ratter and salvager. What they need are a few variations - T2s and Factions - with maybe a few minor adjustments to the T1s, but I think this suggestion is a bit heavy since, as you stated, they would make the assault frigates pointless and more or less just as useless as the destroyer is now. Not supported, but only by a little bit. Sorry.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.07.28 04:43:00 - [6] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 28/07/2010 04:45:26 Originally by: Xi Dra'Gaan Destroyers are anything but fine. Their only real function is as a small-time ratter and salvager. And their pvp role, which is antifrigate support. Apart from the Cormorant which is admittedly a bit lacking they fill that role just fine if fitted properly. Even the Cormorant can be used to some effect, but that'd be stretching it I guess since you can train up the Catalyst in a few hours and use pretty much the same support skills. Imo the "issue" with destroyers is pretty much the same as with assault frigates, people expect them to do things they are simply not meant to do. Just take a look at FW, they are used a lot and to great effect there, and not just by rookie pilots but by seasoned veterans as well.
Rip Minner ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries	Posted - 2010.07.28 05:29:00 - [7] I'm going to support this topic but with the understanding that I belive this changers should not be to tech 1 destroyers but add in tech 2's and fractions. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here.
I SoStoned	Posted - 2010.07.28 12:27:00 - [8] Edited by: I SoStoned on 28/07/2010 12:28:32 Originally by: Omara Otawan Imo the "issue" with destroyers is pretty much the same as with assault frigates, people expect them to do things they are simply not meant to do. They perform the role for which they were intended rather well. Small, nimble, can support 4 tractors and 4 salvagers with commendable ease once skilled properly. Beyond that... well... meh. There have been threads upon threads upon threads concerning destroyers ever since the Red Moon expansion (that buffed hit points of pretty much everything) rendered them incapable of doing their slated job: killing frigates. Sig too high (by far), HP too low for that sig (cruiser sig, frigate HP). Speed too low to catch their intended targets, or even keep up. CCP has stated that they're so far down on the list of items to repair that we'll see them brought into line sometime around 2020 or so. Originally by: Rip Minner I'm going to support this topic but with the understanding that I belive this changers should not be to tech 1 destroyers but add in tech 2's and fractions. Destroyers are already fractional... they're 1/4 of a cruiser with 1/10th the survivability and pretty much the same damage output as a pair of tier 1 frigates, only 1/3 as fast. If you mean faction... yeah, would be nice, as with faction BCs, but no more likely than their repairs. --- Dreamer: My dream, Freddy! MY RULES. Freddy Kruger: groans Awwwww, f**k. --- Never give up!
PC l0adletter	Posted - 2010.07.28 13:52:00 - [9] OP sounds cute in fleets. Supported
I'm Down	Posted - 2010.07.28 19:04:00 - [10] Originally by: PC l0adletter OP sounds cute in fleets. Supported Probably not the best support reason, but I'll take it. So now I support both my post and my cuteness.

Magnus Orin Minmatar United Systems Navy Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.07.28 19:23:00 - [11] The role of the Destroyer class ship is to destroy frigates. In that role they excel if used properly. Therefor, it is my opinion that Destroyer class ships are not broken, thus there is nothing to fix. Not Supported. Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.30 13:05:00 - [12] Originally by: I'm Down Assault frigates had an incredibly awesome fix when they got an AB boost on Sisi... no clue why CCP didn't end up implementing it. Because it ended up making strong AFs stronger and did nothing for the bad AFs. Also, while I support the idea of pimping up a little destroyers, I don't agree with the changes proposed. The cormorant isn' a fair comparison tbh... [Thrasher, ArtyParty] Gyrostabilizer II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor S [empty high slot] 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor S Small Ionic Field Projector I Small Ionic Field Projector I Small Auxiliary Thrusters I With just a little of EFTing, probably there are better fits out there. This thing pops most frigates in one volley at 40 km range. For assault frigs only a couple more are needed. If you use the shorter range ammo you get even higher alpha. The caldari/gallente destroyers suffer mostly from the fact that hybrids are meh. Fix them and you probably fix the destroyers as well. The amarr destroyer has the advantage of fast ammo switching and IIRC, higher tracking as well. Yes they do this. They're also T1 ships. Don't ask too much from them.
Maxsim Goratiev Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.30 14:24:00 - [13] not supporting, as this was rased numerous times, and was passed to ccp a number of times already. But yes, desties are underpowered, and no, they do not excell at killing frigates. it took a while for my cormorant even to kill a stealth bomber. not good enough.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.30 22:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev not supporting, as this was rased numerous times, and was passed to ccp a number of times already. But yes, desties are underpowered, and no, they do not excell at killing frigates. it took a while for my cormorant even to kill a stealth bomber. not good enough. TBH you are also using the worst of the bunch to say that they all need buffing... That's like saying that since the Diemost (Deimos) is nerfed, every hac should be buffed, even the Zealot... Like I said, cormorant has issues of its own which are aside the issues of the destroyers as a group.
Yaay Fusion Enterprises Ltd	Posted - 2010.08.01 05:47:00 - [15] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev not supporting, as this was rased numerous times, and was passed to ccp a number of times already. But yes, desties are underpowered, and no, they do not excell at killing frigates. it took a while for my cormorant even to kill a stealth bomber. not good enough. TBH you are also using the worst of the bunch to say that they all need buffing... That's like saying that since the Diemost (Deimos) is nerfed, every hac should be buffed, even the Zealot... Like I said, cormorant has issues of its own which are aside the issues of the destroyers as a group. 3 of the 4 have major issues, and the last one could still use a buff. Their DSP is terrible. Their range is hampered because they can't fit the highest teir LR guns. Their alpha is weak. Their hit points are less than most of the teir 4 frigate fits. Explain to me how this is wrong? DD changes Docking PVP games
VCBee 2fast2furious Aliastra	Posted - 2010.08.01 20:27:00 - [16] Edited by: VCBee 2fast2furious on 01/08/2010 20:28:31 The problem with destroyers is that the niche they're supposed to fill is one that nobody really needs - mediocre dps from long range, with an alphastrike which used to be credible but (artillery thrasher aside)ceased to matter since the hitpoint boost in Revelations(?). For all destroyers: Remove the 25% RoF penalty Remove 50% Optimal bonus (replace with more appropriate racial options) Remove 2 highslots and 2 turret hardpoints, add 1 midslot and 1 lowslot Reduce Sig Radius to around 60-70m2(?) Increase base shield hitpoints for cormorant/thrasher and base armour hitpoints for coercer/catalyst to around 900. Beyond that, the individual hulls need some tweaking to properly work with their primary weapon system but this would be a start.
Vherkin Amarr Khanids Brownies Industrie	Posted - 2010.08.01 21:51:00 - [17] No, look at factionnal warfare, they are anti-frigate and are really efficient at it, you just don't know how to fly them if you complain or want to fly them in a situation they aren't created for.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.08.02 12:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Yaay 3 of the 4 have major issues, and the last one could still use a buff. Their DSP is terrible. Their range is hampered because they can't fit the highest teir LR guns. Their alpha is weak. Their hit points are less than most of the teir 4 frigate fits. Explain to me how this is wrong? Well first of all, they are ALPHA machines, dps is not that important. Also, with the right skills you should be able to fit the largest T2 guns available to them with no big problem. An advise: use micro auxiliary power core on frigates/destroyers. Gives better grid bonus than a RCU2. And again: remember to keep separate the issues due to the SHIP and the issues due to the WEAPONS. Railguns/blasters have problems on their own. Yes, this makes the gallente and caldari destroyers subpar, but fixing the ships isn't the solution: a fix for the hybrid guns must come first. I didn't say they are perfect, but they are good enough. Really, if they were improved by more than a slight bit frigates wouldn't see any use whatsoever (or at least, they would last even less than what dictors last in fleet fights lol).
Uriel Winston	Posted - 2010.08.02 13:01:00 - [19] Edited by: Uriel Winston on 02/08/2010 13:01:09 destroyers need a little boosting but thats it. if played well they can be devastating ;) 300-350 dps on a t1 small fast agile ship that costs IF rigged 6-8m is amazing! all i want is that all destroyer hulls get a total 2 mid slots.. 1 mwd 1 scram-disruptor. no point on being frigate killers if they cant pinn them down. also a slight Cpu boost might needed in order to fit dps mods+scram (ok now i want too much). also cormorant sucks face it. best destro is amarr pulse fitted. best range + 300dps = dead frigate.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.08.02 13:56:00 - [20] Hell no. We don't need ships to be overpowered by design, leave that to the CCP ****-ups that occur regularly. Let me do it for the ship I know best; Coercer (NOW): 250+dp@20km/300+dps@7km, 1.7k.s, 5.2k EHP. Coercer (THEN): Lol! Suck on this cruisers! Destroyers already do their jobs perfectly fine, all they require is for all of them to brought up to par with the Thrasher with regards to fittings. I do agree with the signature reduction, but that high a speed increase would make them too fast compared to the slower frigates. Cannot support.

Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.08.02 22:41:00 - [21] Originally by: Uriel Winston Edited by: Uriel Winston on 02/08/2010 13:01:09 destroyers need a little boosting but thats it. if played well they can be devastating ;) 300-350 dps on a t1 small fast agile ship that costs IF rigged 6-8m is amazing! all i want is that all destroyer hulls get a total 2 mid slots.. 1 mwd 1 scram-disruptor. no point on being frigate killers if they cant pinn them down. also a slight Cpu boost might needed in order to fit dps mods+scram (ok now i want too much). also cormorant sucks face it. best destro is amarr pulse fitted. best range + 300dps = dead frigate. The cormorant is deceiving. Yes it probably has the lowest dps, but has the best tracking if you manage to sit around your optimal. At ~70 kms, with spikes, you have about 3700 m/s of maximum trackable transversal speed. This means that even a dramiel going at full tangential speed will still be hit. If you want even more tracking (albeit at about 5km less of range), iron charges offer you a trackable speed of around 13000 m/s (though of course both speeds depend on keeping range, but then again you are not really going to solo in a destroyer, are you?). So yeah, it has its uses... Does even half decent dps at 26 km range with antimatter.
Shadi Dee	Posted - 2010.08.03 12:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac An advise: use micro auxiliary power core on frigates/destroyers. Gives better grid bonus than a RCU2. Named micro auxiliary power cores are expensive, meta 3-4 are very expensive so i'll assume you talk about t1 versions. So.. an advise, check before giving advices.
Helen Hunts Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc Red Dragon Industries	Posted - 2010.08.03 18:58:00 - [23] Originally by: Shadi Dee Originally by: Gecko O'Bac An advise: use micro auxiliary power core on frigates/destroyers. Gives better grid bonus than a RCU2. Named micro auxiliary power cores are expensive, meta 3-4 are very expensive so i'll assume you talk about t1 versions. So.. an advise, check before giving advices. Actually, Reactor Controls give a percentage PG bonus. Aux Power Cores give a flat 10 PG (more for the meta 1-4). For a RCU 2 (15%) to kick out an extra 10 PG, the ship would have to have about 68 PG to start with. Aux Power Core wins on sub-cruiser fits. _______________________________ Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money. Any Questions?
Shadi Dee	Posted - 2010.08.04 17:29:00 - [24] For an auxiliary power core to be better than a rcu II the ship need to have less than 66.(66) power grid.. and by that i mean base power grid, with engineering skill at level 0. Thrasher and Coercer have more than 66.(66) while Catalyst and Cormorant have less. On first ones use rcu II and on the other two use micro auxiliary power core. Hope that clarifies the issue. Originally by: Helen Hunts Originally by: Shadi Dee Originally by: Gecko O'Bac An advise: use micro auxiliary power core on frigates/destroyers. Gives better grid bonus than a RCU2. Named micro auxiliary power cores are expensive, meta 3-4 are very expensive so i'll assume you talk about t1 versions. So.. an advise, check before giving advices. Actually, Reactor Controls give a percentage PG bonus. Aux Power Cores give a flat 10 PG (more for the meta 1-4). For a RCU 2 (15%) to kick out an extra 10 PG, the ship would have to have about 68 PG to start with. Aux Power Core wins on sub-cruiser fits.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.08.04 19:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Shadi Dee For an auxiliary power core to be better than a rcu II the ship need to have less than 66.(66) power grid.. and by that i mean base power grid, with engineering skill at level 0. Thrasher and Coercer have more than 66.(66) while Catalyst and Cormorant have less. On first ones use rcu II and on the other two use micro auxiliary power core. Hope that clarifies the issue. And you gain a cool 2 grid with decent skills. Now, if you are that short it's good, but since with a mapc you can normally fit them unless you try to put things at random, I'd say that the additional CPU the RCU2 requires is much more important than the 2 grid over the mapc. And I never, ever, needed to fit a named mapc to any frigate I ever flew. If the problem is you don't have enough fitting skills then don't complain on the module, train those skills.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.06 17:08:00 - [26] I don't see destroyers as needing much of a boost as a class. AFs could use something as they cost considerably more than a destroyer. But on the whole I think frigate class ships are pretty well balanced and the thrasher may be a bit op. I'm certainly seeing more thrashers around than any t2 frig - ceptor or af. But then again I'm flying around fw space, and dessies unlike t2 frigs can go in a minor plex. I don't think that explains it all though. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
LoRDa RaMOs Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:04:00 - [27] Too unbalancing. The Coercer extra mid could be useful though. And missiles for the cormorant would be great too. Not supported
X Gallentius Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:32:00 - [28] I think dessies are supposed to be used as alpha machines used in wolfpacks. In that role, Thrashers are clearly the omgwtfpwnmobiles of destroyers. They have massive alpha due to artillery boost, and their scan resolution is superior to any other destroyer. (Note that you can get better alpha out of an artillery catalyst (god forbid!), but the thrasher will always get the first shot, and it can fit a point too.)
Ori Blake	Posted - 2010.08.08 18:31:00 - [29] Originally by: X Gallentius I think dessies are supposed to be used as alpha machines used in wolfpacks. In that role, Thrashers are clearly the omgwtfpwnmobiles of destroyers. They have massive alpha due to artillery boost, and their scan resolution is superior to any other destroyer. (Note that you can get better alpha out of an artillery catalyst (god forbid!), but the thrasher will always get the first shot, and it can fit a point too.) Yeah, it's kind of silly to boost them more when Thrashers already excel too much in their frig killing role, and in large groups are such high-powered, cheap alpha that they already win the ISK war versus almost any target even if destroyed.
Maxsim Goratiev Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:16:00 - [30] Quote: Thrashers already excel Well, what about all others??



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