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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Selune Virra
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Posted - 2011.01.04 20:40:00 -
[811]
I vote keep them around. I don't have one, probably never will either, but I just picked up a few max run (100) BPC for mining crystals.
crazy high ME and PE (IIRC 100)...
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Kaya Divine
Gallente
Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2011.01.05 04:10:00 -
[812]
@Tasko Pal, and yet somehow you cant dispute any of my, if I may add - neutral, observations.
Its nice to read a book, but the most dangerous people are those who read only one book.
Or speaking in modern term, think outside the box.
Then you will realize that everything that there is an evidence for everything that I wrote.
Now I will not waste, with all due respect, pearls before swine.
Because fanatical people cant realize how its unfair toward others, I bet that all owners would be in places of deprived players, "whining" or to be more PC, demanding justice, if we had vice versa situation.
Then when experiencing it, you can say that there is nothing to do, and that everything is fine. And I would believe it.
Shoot your shot... |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.05 04:14:00 -
[813]
 Originally by: Jovialmadness
P.s. Bringing up slot useage and time issues for inventors vs bpo holders is horse **** so dont.
I agree its total horse ****! Using T2 BPOs is really hard work. And the profits for the couple of seconds it takes me to start the job.... psch! I mean, you can make more money running missions! Don't nerf my shiny T2 BPO collection! :)
-Liang
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Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
- Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2011.01.05 04:32:00 -
[814]
Originally by: Kaya Divine
@Tasko Pal, and yet somehow you cant dispute any of my, if I may add - neutral, observations.
Its nice to read a book, but the most dangerous people are those who read only one book.
Or speaking in modern term, think outside the box.
Then you will realize that everything that there is an evidence for everything that I wrote.
Now I will not waste, with all due respect, pearls before swine.
Because fanatical people cant realize how its unfair toward others, I bet that all owners would be in places of deprived players, "whining" or to be more PC, demanding justice, if we had vice versa situation.
Then when experiencing it, you can say that there is nothing to do, and that everything is fine. And I would believe it.
Unfair has got nothing to do with it. Its simply too bad for you or anyone else that feels robbed of your fairness. |
Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.05 05:12:00 -
[815]
Better yet, why keep them?
Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan |
Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2011.01.05 05:56:00 -
[816]
Originally by: Dramaticus
Better yet, why keep them?
Why keep titans?
Why keep SCs?
Why keep +5 plants?
Why keep slave/crystal/etc sets?
Why keep perfect ME T1 BPOs?
Why keep faction ships?
Why keep meta mods?
Why keep orcas?
Why keep T3s?
All of these give 'unfair' advantages to players that have aquired them vs those that do not have. This is, after all.. a video Game. A Game. With a lot of different toys to play with. Variety is a good thing for an MMO. Why should the only top tier items be ships and battle oriented items? Why shouldn't industry minded characters have a 'toy' to strive for to achieve and use as they please?
So.. why not keep them?
----------------------------------------
Be a part of a solution instead of a lil whiney *****. |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.05 07:45:00 -
[817]
Originally by: Umega
Why keep titans?
Why keep SCs?
Good question!
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
- Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2011.01.05 09:04:00 -
[818]
Originally by: Elayae
Edited by: Elayae on 04/01/2011 15:57:30
Edited by: Elayae on 04/01/2011 13:30:14
Not all tech 2 BPOÆs are unfair in a market and production perspective but there are a few that are, for example the production of 100 tech II mining crystals of veldspar, scordite, plagioclase, omber or pyroxeres.
Tech II BPO
*no copy hassle - no job slots needed
*no invention hassle - no job slots needed
*production 100 runs per batch? û duration 35 hours per blueprint of 100 runs - 1 manufacture slot
Total duration: 35 hours?
Tech I BPO
*copying 20 blueprints with maximum runs = 100 û duration 6-7 days - 1 copy slot
*inventing 50% invention chance (with max skills) û duration 6 hours 40 minutes per blueprint - 10 runs left per blueprint - 20 invention slots û on average 10 tech II blueprints left û (there are no meta items to increase invention chance û decryptors for mining crystals adds 8-30 million ISK extra cost, most of the time not worth it if you want to compete on the market)
*production û duration 3 hours 30 minutes per blueprint of 10 runs - 10 manufacture slots
Total duration maximum: 168 + 133 + 35 = 336 hours (approximately)
Total duration minimum: 144 + 13.3 + 3.5 = 160.8 hours (all job slots are available to character)
Producing tech II mining crystals from a tech I blueprint BPO takes up a lot more time and effort in comparison to a tech II BPO. Next to that there are 4-5 widely used mining crystals, the amount of work to keep all supplied for the markets increases significantly. In this case the numbers add up, the amount of crystals needed on a regular basis makes the tech II BPO variant much more favourable.
Originally by: Jovialmadness
P.s. Bringing up slot useage and time issues for inventors vs bpo holders is horse **** so dont. Dunno who that was that said it but i started having flasbacks from complaints years ago about that. Its done like that for a reason.
Hmm good argument stick to facts and numbers please in this case it is a valid argument. 1 versus 31 slots, 1 production time versus 5 times that much. And I am not even talking about the hauling, the datacores, the 50% invention chance, the public job slot costs, the clicking and investment ISK.
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 20/12/2010 19:55:03
In almost all cases where manufacturing from a T2 BPO is reasonably profitable, invention is also profitable.
Hmm well in this case it is clearly not, so what to do with these tech II original blueprints? And please use facts and figures, not generalizations for all tech II blueprints.
To strengthen the example:
I need to produce 100 tech II mining crystals of all 5 major mining crystals a week to keep up demand in my markets. With 5 tech II blueprint originals I would spend 5x35=175 hours (approximately 1 week) using 5x1 slots. With tech I blueprints I would need 5x160=800 hours (approximately 4-5 weeks) using 5x31=155 slots. In my opinion the tech II blueprint originals clearly have a significant advantage as I only need 1 week to produce them and 4-5 weeks with the tech I variant.
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Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.05 11:10:00 -
[819]
Edited by: Stella SGP on 05/01/2011 11:14:27
Wow amazing advantage there!!! Makes a T2 BPO so worth buying!
Contact Zoid Lord. he is currently selling his Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II for ONLY 26 Billion!
What a bargain! Profit per year is somewhere around 3.7 Billion/ year building in NPC station with current prices in Jita.
Edit - Think of all the time you'll save!
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2011.01.05 12:18:00 -
[820]
Sucks for you whiners. Gonna go spin my titan now and roll around in my isk in my hangar i got from selling out. Ill be thinking of all of you as i do. I might even wonder why you guys didnt HTFU and work towards getting these "unfair" advantages that you say they are. Ya know all these years spent blabbing, whining and carrying on... Its such a shame you wasted your time. You could have made some serious isk using or buying/selling these broken unfair game mechanics.
Anyway, ill keep bumping this thread just to annoy the fire out of the babies.
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Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
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Posted - 2011.01.05 16:37:00 -
[821]
Originally by: Kaya Divine
@Tasko Pal, and yet somehow you cant dispute any of my, if I may add - neutral, observations.
Its nice to read a book, but the most dangerous people are those who read only one book.
Or speaking in modern term, think outside the box.
Then you will realize that everything that there is an evidence for everything that I wrote.
Now I will not waste, with all due respect, pearls before swine.
Because fanatical people cant realize how its unfair toward others, I bet that all owners would be in places of deprived players, "whining" or to be more PC, demanding justice, if we had vice versa situation.
Then when experiencing it, you can say that there is nothing to do, and that everything is fine. And I would believe it.
So you are now arguing that you have this really great argument, BUT it's not worth "wasting" it on the likes of me (who obviously is the only person who ever posts on the internet). This must be more of your "logic".
I have an alternate interpretation for your post. You don't have an argument worth mentioning. You asserted without proof that some of the old BPOs illicitly obtained by BOB hadn't been returned. However, the mea culpa by T20 says otherwise:
Quote:
The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP and reintroduced through a new raffle in the future.
Your other concerns have been repeatedly addressed. Now you are reduced to whining that I'm not sufficiently gullible, excuse me, a "think outside the box" type to just agree with you.
And only arguing one side of the T2 BPO debate, as you have done, is not being "neutral". As I have said, I openly support T2 BPO ownership. Hence, I am not neutral. But it isn't because I didn't think about it. Here's how I see it. I see the attempt to remove T2 PBOs as taking away a fairly gained and balanced advantage. And there's no way that can be done without screwing someone over.
What's the appropriate amount to give a T2 BPO holder? Is it what they paid for it, if anything (they might have gotten it originally, looted from a wreck, or were gifted by another)? Is it the average of the last few trades (which might stretch years into the past, including prices which probably aren't way off what people would pay now)? Or is it the value which the BPO holder places on it, which is invariably more than what they sell for on contract?
From the very beginning, the anti-BPO side has argued from ignorance, envy, and obtuseness. They continue to ignore opportunity cost, which by itself balances the advantages of T2 BPOs. They continue to display envy because they repeatedly discuss T2 BPOs as being "unfair" even though Eve is unfair by design in precisely the way that T2 BPOs are unfair (that is, you pay isk/opportunity cost to get an in-game advantage and a collectors item). And they continue to be obtuse by repeated making the same arguments over and over again, even though those arguments have been shown wrong or invalid (not merely different interpretations).
Kaya, you have yet to make an argument that "thinks outside the box".
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.05 17:43:00 -
[822]
Originally by: Stella SGP
Wow amazing advantage there!!! Makes a T2 BPO so worth buying!
Contact Zoid Lord. he is currently selling his Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II for ONLY 26 Billion!
What a bargain! Profit per year is somewhere around 3.7 Billion/ year building in NPC station with current prices in Jita.
Edit - Think of all the time you'll save!
Can you link this auction or notification of sale? I'm having a hard time seeing how its only 3.7B/year going from input sell -> output sell prices with station assembly. I'm hoping for a screen shot of the BPO. :)
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
- Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.05 18:06:00 -
[823]
For sale
Alright, I just took another look at Pyro and didn't realize they went up again, my numbers are based 2 months ago, since his 2 failed month long auctions in November and December.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.05 18:16:00 -
[824]
So from what I'm seeing:
---- Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II BPO (ME: 100 PE: 50) ---
Station Assembly:
Time: 385.882352941
Runs/month: 6717.07317073
Gross/month: 1,477,756,097.56 (@220,000.0 ISK/u)
Costs/month: 864,745,857.22 (@128,738.49 ISK/u)
Net/month: 613,010,240.341
Material Volume: 242,217.658537 (0.27462319562 Freighter Loads)
Output Volume: 335,853.658537 (0.380786460926 Freighter Loads)
Freighter Hauls: 0.655409656546
Monthly Buy Order:
R.A.M.- Electronics 1 @ 64,993.49 = 64,993.49
Hypersynaptic Fibers 3 @ 2,845.0 = 8,535.0
Pyroxeres Mining Crystal I 1 @ 40,000.0 = 40,000.0
Nocxium 26 @ 585.0 = 15,210.0
I pulled the prices from Eve-Central... FWIW. Still, 26B is overpriced - I certainly wouldn't pay that much for it.
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
- Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.05 19:23:00 -
[825]
Edited by: Stella SGP on 05/01/2011 19:28:41
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/01/2011 18:21:11
---- Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II BPO (ME: 100 PE: 50) ---
Station Assembly:
Time: 385.882352941
Runs/month: 6717.07317073
Gross/month: 1,477,756,097.56 (@220,000.0 ISK/u)
Costs/month: 864,745,857.22 (@128,738.49 ISK/u)
Net/month: 613,010,240.341
Material Volume: 242,217.658537 (0.27462319562 Freighter Loads)
Output Volume: 335,853.658537 (0.380786460926 Freighter Loads)
Freighter Hauls: 0.655409656546
Monthly Buy Order:
R.A.M.- Electronics 6,717.07317073 @ 64,993.49 = 436,566,027.951
Hypersynaptic Fibers 20,151.2195122 @ 2,845.0 = 57,330,219.5122
Pyroxeres Mining Crystal I 6,717.07317073 @ 40,000.0 = 268,682,926.829
Nocxium 174,643.902439 @ 585.0 = 102,166,682.927
I don't think it actually deals with RAM correctly - I'm sure that the profit margin is even greater. Still, 26B doesn't seem worth it.
-Liang
Ed: I should really prettify this. But, its only a small part of a much larger application. Hoping there aren't too many bugs. ;-)
220K per unit? Thats almost 2x current (like 10 minutes ago this time) Jita prices, what region did you get that price from? I don't know about you, but I like to use Jita prices for several lazy reasons.
Even the prices now in Jita I consider fairly pumped up.
Yea, ram is grossly overestimated.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.05 20:04:00 -
[826]
Originally by: Stella SGP
220K per unit? Thats almost 2x current (like 10 minutes ago this time) Jita prices, what region did you get that price from? I don't know about you, but I like to use Jita prices for several lazy reasons.
Even the prices now in Jita I consider fairly pumped up.
Ask Eve-Central where the prices came from. I *could* limit it to the Forge, but I never, ever, ever go to Jita. I'm much more likely to look at Rens, Hek, or Dodixie prices.
Quote:
Yea, ram is grossly overestimated.
Yeah. I knew that when I posted it. I'm pretty dissatisfied with all the manufacturing apps I've seen so far... obviously I'm writing my own. Like I wrote my own Quickfit and EFT. Sigh.
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
- Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.05 20:20:00 -
[827]
Edited by: Stella SGP on 05/01/2011 20:20:29
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Yeah. I knew that when I posted it. I'm pretty dissatisfied with all the manufacturing apps I've seen so far... obviously I'm writing my own. Like I wrote my own Quickfit and EFT. Sigh.
Well I think EFT is fine... for me at least. I totally agree with the manufacturing apps tho, I haven't seen one I'm satisfied with too. If someone likes checking cost for items 1 at a time then I guess its good enough, still prefer my own primitive excel =)
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.05 21:07:00 -
[828]
Originally by: Stella SGP
Well I think EFT is fine... for me at least. I totally agree with the manufacturing apps tho, I haven't seen one I'm satisfied with too. If someone likes checking cost for items 1 at a time then I guess its good enough, still prefer my own primitive excel =)
Do you know if people would be willing to pay for a *really good* manufacturing app? I was planning on being greedy and keeping it for myself... but this is honestly shaping up *fantastically*.
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
- Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
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Posted - 2011.01.05 21:24:00 -
[829]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Do you know if people would be willing to pay for a *really good* manufacturing app? I was planning on being greedy and keeping it for myself... but this is honestly shaping up *fantastically*.
It depends on what it does. I'm starting to get to the point where I need to look into tools to improve my trade/industry productivity, tune book orders, and spot opportunities. Currently, my primary need is to move data from Eve (for example, in the Jita market where I'm a 0.01 hack) into my spreadsheets efficiently.
A good tool that saves me a lot of time and isk is going to be extremely valuable to me in the future. I'd say up to a billion isk right now (depending also on how expensive the competition is!), but I need to study what's still out there first before I make a big purchase decision.
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Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.05 22:40:00 -
[830]
Edited by: Stella SGP on 05/01/2011 22:42:14
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Do you know if people would be willing to pay for a *really good* manufacturing app? I was planning on being greedy and keeping it for myself... but this is honestly shaping up *fantastically*.
If its really good, its worth a try. I have seen a few people who actually spent $29 on ebay to buy lame "unofficial guides" containing info that are freely available on the web.
Edit - This thread is now officially about tools to optimize the "exploitation" of T2 BPOs 
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.01.06 22:05:00 -
[831]
you saying there is no reason to is the most perfect reason! I predict they will be gone within 6 months! ccp seems to do everything they can to ignore your analysis and conclusions. now quick say boost super carriers and nerf blasters!
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Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
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Posted - 2011.01.08 17:05:00 -
[832]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
you saying there is no reason to is the most perfect reason! I predict they will be gone within 6 months! ccp seems to do everything they can to ignore your analysis and conclusions. now quick say boost super carriers and nerf blasters!
The "no reason" is churn. Boosting supercaps and nerfing blasters churns the markets and makes more activity and excitement for us. Now I don't know, but would nerfing T2 BPOs generate churn? It might to a limited degree in some of the ship modules where the BPOs are able to keep up with demand, but most stuff is stabilized by invention.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.01.09 23:44:00 -
[833]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
[...snip...]I don't think it actually deals with RAM correctly - I'm sure that the profit margin is even greater. Still, 26B doesn't seem worth it.
Yeah, at the given material prices you listed it should run at around 54k per unit, but sales price is more around 160k per unit right now (for a net profit of under 24 mil/day even before taking into account broker fees and sales taxes), with a normal trade volume of around 70k per month (so about 10 BPOs' worth).
At a 26 bil ISK purchase price for that T2 BPO, it will earn back the initial investment in roughly 3 years.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Uncle Creamy
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Posted - 2011.01.10 00:13:00 -
[834]
PI debacle:
wetware mainframe >> broken wetware mainframe
Tech 2 debacle:
tech 2 bpo >> broken tech 2 bpo
Who says CCP needs to be fair, they are the game masters and
they make the rules as they go. Besides "fair" is a matter of
opinion.
Approx 1 in 5 tech 2 ships is profitable to invent and build
at any given time.
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Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.10 04:02:00 -
[835]
Originally by: Uncle Creamy
PI debacle:
wetware mainframe >> broken wetware mainframe
Tech 2 debacle:
tech 2 bpo >> broken tech 2 bpo
Who says CCP needs to be fair, they are the game masters and
they make the rules as they go. Besides "fair" is a matter of
opinion.
Approx 1 in 5 tech 2 ships is profitable to invent and build
at any given time.
Hence, you are complaining about?
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2011.01.10 12:08:00 -
[836]
The OP in this thread has failed to see that mass production of tech II items with blueprint originals in some cases do have a significant advantage over the invention method. The main examples of cases using mass production are mining crystals and ammunition. There probably are no mass producers for these items using the tech I BPO and invention, only pilots that produce these items for themselves.
The mass production with tech II BPOÆs is in my opinion a game breaking mechanic that disallows the inventor profession to really flourish on all tech II matters.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.01.10 14:39:00 -
[837]
Originally by: Elayae
The OP in this thread has failed to see that mass production of tech II items with blueprint originals in some cases do have a significant advantage over the invention method. The main examples of cases using mass production are mining crystals and ammunition. There probably are no mass producers for these items using the tech I BPO and invention, only pilots that produce these items for themselves.
It is wholly irrelevant whether one person or multiple persons do it, only total volumes matter and percentages of those volumes coming from BPOs vs invented BPCs.
On top of that, it is not a problem with T2 BPOs, but a convenience problem with the invention of such items, or what I'd like to call "the neighbor's goat problem" (or if you prefer, "the grass is greener on the other side, so let's burn that jerk's lawn down").
If you want that "fixed", the sane approach would be to request for a less tedious invention mechanic, NOT request a destruction of corresponding T2 BPOs.
Quote:
The mass production with tech II BPOÆs is in my opinion a game breaking mechanic that disallows the inventor profession to really flourish on all tech II matters.
And I disagree wholeheartedly with that opinion.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2011.01.10 15:09:00 -
[838]
Originally by: Akita T
It is wholly irrelevant whether one person or multiple persons do it, only total volumes matter and percentages of those volumes coming from BPOs vs invented BPCs.
Yes true, however I estimate that around 99,90% of the mass produced tech II items such as mining crystals and ammunition that are available for the market come from tech II blueprint originals.
Originally by: Akita T
On top of that, it is not a problem with T2 BPOs, but a convenience problem with the invention of such items, or what I'd like to call "the neighbor's goat problem".
This convenience turns into a significant advantage when large quantities are involved as described and calculated in examples using mining crystals or ammunition.
Originally by: Akita T
If you want that "fixed", the sane approach would be to request for a less tedious invention mechanic, NOT request a destruction of corresponding T2 BPOs.
My statements do not request a destruction of the tech II BPOÆs but an increase of the manufacturing time of an original tech II blueprint according to time difference with normal invention procedures. (see first post p.27)
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2011.01.10 15:11:00 -
[839]
Originally by: Elayae
The OP in this thread has failed to see that mass production of tech II items with blueprint originals in some cases do have a significant advantage over the invention method. The main examples of cases using mass production are mining crystals and ammunition. There probably are no mass producers for these items using the tech I BPO and invention, only pilots that produce these items for themselves.
The mass production with tech II BPOÆs is in my opinion a game breaking mechanic that disallows the inventor profession to really flourish on all tech II matters.
Well you have done a superb job stating the obvious. There is an advantage in manufacturing with tech 2 bpos and for that advantage you must PAY for it.
1. BPO price stability.
2. Locked in to one production line
3. Initial investment
4. BPO nerfing i.e. Removal concerns via CCP.
5. Cry babies wanting your toy removed.
Are just a few of the issues surrounding investing in tech 2 bpos.
P.s. I agree with akita, most "real" inventors post positively about invention vs bpos and they generally giggle at bpo owners since they are locked into one production line. Invention is argueably the best thing CCP has ever thought up especially considering it added a dual production dimension to the game no other game has done(to my knowledge). |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.01.10 15:26:00 -
[840]
Originally by: Elayae
[...]I estimate that around 99,90% of the mass produced tech II items such as mining crystals and ammunition that are available for the market come from tech II blueprint originals[...]This convenience turns into a significant advantage when large quantities are involved as described and calculated in examples using mining crystals or ammunition.
If large enough quantities WOULD be involved, the BPOs would no longer be able to keep up and invention would become profitable.
And since SOME T2 ammo and some T2 crystals ARE profitable to invent... well, draw your own conclusion.
Quote:
My statements do not request a destruction of the tech II BPOÆs but an increase of the manufacturing time of an original tech II blueprint according to time difference with normal invention procedures. (see first post p.27)
What's wrong with invention profits in those areas coming mostly from the toiling required rather than mass invention-based production ?
If anything, it's a good thing, since it allows inventors with low budgets to enter such markets, the same way T1 ammo production is usually the domain of manufacturers with low budgets.
There is no need for such an adjustment.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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