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Did players/forum posters win once again finnally?

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Ghoest	Posted - 2010.07.30 00:44:00 - [1] Ive been playing online games and posting on forum for 10-15 years. -First public forum input mattered a lot. It was a vital feedback tool for devs. Especially after games went live. -Then we figured out how to "control" forums. This meant clever posters as they could frame the issue discussions. This lead to the idea about the famous 5% of players who made 95% of the noise - which was kinda true. Mythics DAOC became maybe the worst example of gamer prejudices influencing game design. It was bad -Then devs decided to almost totally ignore forums(and other subscriber generated feedback.) and Instead rely more on metrics, bug reports, email polls and in house testing. Initially this paid dividends. It let devs focus obvious problems and stop chasing the flavor of the month issues. -But later it led to a big disconnect between gamer concerns and developer focus. When you become comfortable ignoring complaints because they represent a minority of players its not hard to ignore complaints that dont mesh with your own visions and preferred priorities. EVE ever since Dominion has been an example of this. -Maybe now well have a more balanced persective from devs. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.30 00:50:00 - [2] Originally by: Ghoest -But later it led to a big disconnect between gamer concerns and developer focus. When you become comfortable ignoring complaints because they represent a minority of players its not hard to ignore complaints that dont mesh with your own visions and preferred priorities. I think the only way they'll even notice the blip is if thousands and thousands of accounts unsub... and even then the expectation is that it won't matter because Dust+Incarna will make up for the lost subscribers. The divide is too great to overcome because CCP (with a couple of exceptions) doesn't play their own game. Sorry. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Babel Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2010.07.30 01:32:00 - [3] Originally by: Liang Nuren CCP (with a couple of exceptions) doesn't play their own game. In what language does 'couple' mean 'at least 38 [bothered to respond]' ? You are very bad at making a point when contrary evidence is still fresh :) . All generalisations are false - Discuss.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.30 01:35:00 - [4] Originally by: Babel Originally by: Liang Nuren CCP (with a couple of exceptions) doesn't play their own game. In what language does 'couple' mean 'at least 38 [bothered to respond]' ? You are very bad at making a point when contrary evidence is still fresh :) Did you bother reading what they do in game and what they're allowed to do in game? -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Babel Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2010.07.30 01:39:00 - [5] I think my point is that if the vocal 5% of forum noisemakers are just posting blatant untrue rubbish - then ignoring them is probably a very good idea :) . All generalisations are false - Discuss.
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.07.30 01:46:00 - [6] Originally by: Babel I think my point is that if the vocal 5% of forum noisemakers are just posting blatant untrue rubbish - then ignoring them is probably a very good idea :) You are one of the 5% I take it. Signature locked for inappropriate image. Zymurgist
Babel Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2010.07.30 01:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Gladys Pank Originally by: Babel I think my point is that if the vocal 5% of forum noisemakers are just posting blatant untrue rubbish - then ignoring them is probably a very good idea :) You are one of the 5% I take it. /me senses a paradox ... . All generalisations are false - Discuss.
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.07.30 02:50:00 - [8] Edited by: Ghoest on 30/07/2010 02:52:56 Edited by: Ghoest on 30/07/2010 02:51:16 Originally by: Babel Originally by: Gladys Pank Originally by: Babel I think my point is that if the vocal 5% of forum noisemakers are just posting blatant untrue rubbish - then ignoring them is probably a very good idea :) You are one of the 5% I take it. /me senses a paradox ... No informed person has ever suggested that the vocal 5% post "blatant untrue rubbish." The liar troll types tend to become notorious rather quickly. Many well informed people however have pointed out that the 5% left to their own devices is biased and if pandered too tends to be rather flavor of the month in its concerns. On the other hand when a game has serious flaw the vocal 5% starts ***ing about those issues for month after month after month. Which is where we are at with lag specifically and the devs disconnect from game play in general. Wherever you went - Here you are.**
Wasted Skillpoints	Posted - 2010.07.30 04:11:00 - [9] Have you seen the content added in the last bunch of patches? CCP has no idea what is going on.
Ban Doga	Posted - 2010.07.30 06:25:00 - [10] Originally by: Babel Originally by: Liang Nuren CCP (with a couple of exceptions) doesn't play their own game. In what language does 'couple' mean 'at least 38 [bothered to respond]' ? You are very bad at making a point when contrary evidence is still fresh :) According to Wikipedia CCP has 353 employees. 38 out of 353 employees is not even 11%. That's quite consistent with "with a couple of exceptions".

Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.07.30 06:28:00 - [11] Originally by: Ghoest Mythics DAOC became maybe the worst example of gamer prejudices influencing game design. It was bad You have to wonder what sort of age bracket DAOC was aimed at. Listening to the playerbase isn't as bad as the above example made it to look like per se, you just need to temper it a little so you don't get carried away changing the game on a whim. The EVE playerbase is a different animal. It has greater intelligence. Many are also professionals in their own fields. The amount of noise out there may be a lot, but the underlying core believe that CCP had screwed up or in the process of screwing up cannot be simply dismissed. I see CCP doggedly arrogant, based on the replies that we've seen. Time will tell.
Aera Aiana Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.30 06:54:00 - [12] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Babel Originally by: Liang Nuren CCP (with a couple of exceptions) doesn't play their own game. In what language does 'couple' mean 'at least 38 [bothered to respond]' ? You are very bad at making a point when contrary evidence is still fresh :) Did you bother reading what they do in game and what they're allowed to do in game? -Liang So some of them don't play the game you do it? Get real, most EVE players don't, or why do you figure there are so many people in highsec? You're way isn't the only way. Besides, I think they covered pretty much every aspect of the game, short of maybe trading - which can't really be helped given their insider knowledge. Personally I think some of them play the game too much. The more you get used to something the easier it is to ignore smaller issues like the antiquated user interface, easily the worst of it's kind in the entire industry. They need some fresh people and actually listen to them when they tell them stuff like "wow, this is totally crap, why do I have to pause skill-training for a clone jump and leave my ship? that makes no sense whatsoever. why doesn't the client do it for me?". "hey, why aren't my own market orders highlighted?", "why in gods name does it ask me if I really want to set up a buy order below average?", "... -
Sandra Buldock ANZAC ALLIANCE IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.30 07:14:00 - [13] Edited by: Sandra Buldock on 30/07/2010 07:15:01 Originally by: Ghoest Mythics DAOC became maybe the worst example of gamer prejudices influencing game design. It was bad The forums only went like that during the games death. "Mythics DAOC" died after they introduced an expansion (new frontiers) that the core player base did not want. The forums exploded with people demanding roll backs and fixes and there was a game wide boycott across most servers of all major corps to stop pvping until dev's made fixes. Boycott lasted about a month from memory, but the end result was that "Mythic knew for a fact new content sells better than a polished game".... and most dev's were busy working on Warhammer Online ( Mythic's up and coming game) so they would get to it when they could. where is DAOC now? Read the mythic story...then look at the CCP story... people never learn. The public forums tell you everything you need to know about the health of a game.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.30 07:26:00 - [14] Originally by: Aera Aiana So some of them don't play the game you do it? Get real, most EVE players don't, or why do you figure there are so many people in highsec? You're way isn't the only way. Besides, I think they covered pretty much every aspect of the game, short of maybe trading - which can't really be helped given their insider knowledge. Personally I think some of them play the game too much. The more you get used to something the easier it is to ignore smaller issues like the antiquated user interface, easily the worst of it's kind in the entire industry. They need some fresh people and actually listen to them when they tell them stuff like "wow, this is totally crap, why do I have to pause skill-training for a clone jump and leave my ship? that makes no sense whatsoever. why doesn't the client do it for me?". "hey, why aren't my own market orders highlighted?", "why in gods name does it ask me if I really want to set up a buy order below average?", "... Comments: - There was one developer (CCP Dropbear) who gave an intelligent and knowledgeable response. - Pausing skill training for jump cloning and such sounds like they did it to stop a bug or because the "right behavior" wasn't immediately obvious for some reason. That's the reason things like that usually sneak in. - The Eve UI is horribly inadequate and antiquated. There is no denying this... but it seems that people who play the game are not somehow immune to noticing it. Every time I open my corp management window I cringe a little bit. Every time I deal with a POS I want to cry. Etc. Honestly, the fact that they haven't fixed these things is more evidence that they don't play the game than that they are somehow "immune to noticing it". -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Antihrist Pripravnik 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.07.30 07:27:00 - [15] Posting to get in those 5%. Also, CCP has evolved and found an excellent way to filter all that spam, stupid ideas and trolls on the forum and focus on what really matters to the players by forming CSM. Although the last CSM meeting minutes showed some bumps in the co-operation with CCP, I'm confident that the key issues will be resolved. I know it's hard to play a broken game every day for months, but maybe you should see things from CCP's perspective - some problems require a long time to be identified and resolved in a proper manner, especially in a system as complicated as EVE Online.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.30 07:36:00 - [16] Edited by: Ressiv on 30/07/2010 07:38:48 Originally by: Sandra Buldock Read the mythic story...then look at the CCP story... people never learn. The public forums tell you everything you need to know about the health of a game. While there is some truth in what you say, I wouldnt want to have to bet anything that I care about over forum concensus. Let's run with the 5% figure. There is no way that there are 2000 people agreeing here. Yeah, about half of that figure hopped on the FIX IT NOAW train. I wont try and say that there is nothing to be learned from that, but it's rather weak as evidence that it can be used for distilling the true state of the game. It DOES say something about how people percieve they are being heard, and I hope CCP is able to learn from this fast, and do something usefull with it. What I'm trying to get at: All the issues that are being brought forth as evidence that CCP is unable to meet their own excellence specs, is being taken out of context, **d multiple times, bashed, mutilated, then put back together like kids trying to clear their room before dinner (as long as all content is there, it's clean ... right ?!!) and then people point at it and say: doesnt that look like ?! OMG, that DOES look like **. While there is deffinately an issue with CCP's communicative 'skills', and a broad perception that they are not doing what some of us would like them to do, I think the evidence to support those claims is rather weak. It's mostly based on perception and not on facts. (Or on interpretation of facts, but not hindered by any knowledge on the subject, thus leading to false interpretations) ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Chris Hansenn	Posted - 2010.07.30 07:39:00 - [17] CCP's marketing department needs to play the damn game.
Zverofaust Gallente Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.07.30 07:43:00 - [18] Problem is: From a commercial standpoint, generating new subscriptions pays obvious dividends in terms of income. The amount of new subscriptions coming in -- even if they only last a few months -- outweighs the number of older players canceling their subscriptions. Most older players (probably) use in-game ISK to buy PLEX's for their subscriptions anyway. It would take a substantial drop in PLEX demand, followed by a substantial drop in PLEX prices and thus a substantial drop in the number of GTC's being sold by CCP, for "veteran bitterness" to really impact CCP from a commercial standpoint. Incarna in particular, I imagine, has CCP seeing nothing but dollar signs in terms of the massive influx of new subscriptions they'll see by turning Eve into "Galaxy of Warcraft" (see wot I did thar?). This income will far far outweigh the lost income from bitter old vets leaving the game. And judging by the fact that Eve playerbase seems to only be growing, the number of bitter old vets actually leaving is miniscule compared to the number of new players subscribing. So basically, it is not in CCP's monetary interests to give up their policy of attracting more and more players with new shiny toys rather than maintaining their original clientele. It's business! ___________________________________________ The Hero of Kamela The Terror of Tararan The Executioner of Ezzara
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.30 07:51:00 - [19] Originally by: Ressiv Let's run with the 5% figure. There is no way that there are 2000 people agreeing here. Yeah, about half of that figure hopped on the FIX IT NOAW train. I wont try and say that there is nothing to be learned from that, but it's rather weak as evidence that it can be used for distilling the true state of the game. You're right. Its actually much higher than 2000. There's been 2000 in the assembly hall thread alone. Quote: While there is deffinately an issue with CCP's communicative 'skills', and a broad perception that they are not doing what some of us would like them to do, I think the evidence to support those claims is rather weak. It's mostly based on perception and not on facts. (Or on interpretation of facts, but not hindered by any knowledge on the subject, thus leading to false interpretations) The evidence to support the claims is pretty overwhelming, actually. Let's consider just the most recent expansion: Planetary Interaction Planetary Interaction is a click-grind-fest. This was mentioned, repeatedly, in its testing phase and it had plenty of time to be fixed before release. Furthermore, the PI refining and NPC sell order **ups were both mentioned before they went live. CCP did not take any action to resolve these issues before they happened. Conclusion: CCP isn't listening and isn't dedicated to Excellence. There's no excuse for releasing an expansion in this manner. -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Ardetia Killer Koalas R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.07.30 07:54:00 - [20] i wish ccp would just permaban all the vocal trolls such as liang forums would be more relevant again

Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.30 08:01:00 - [21] Originally by: Ardetia Edited by: Ardetia on 30/07/2010 07:56:18 i wish ccp would just permaban all the vocal trolls from the forums such as liang forums would be more relevant again any more "lag" threads now and ill scream... february -> that way Perhaps you should look into what the definition of a troll is. Furthermore, if you don't want to see "lag threads".... I quite frankly recommend not looking at anything Eve related on the internet. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.07.30 08:04:00 - [22] Edited by: Suitonia on 30/07/2010 08:04:44 Originally by: Ardetia Edited by: Ardetia on 30/07/2010 07:56:18 i wish ccp would just permaban all the vocal trolls from the forums such as liang forums would be more relevant again any more "lag" threads now and ill scream... february -> that way People are unsatisfied with CCP's policy of "we're not fixing anything for 18 months because thats what makes us the most money", I love this game, and it's the best MMO for what I want right now, so I, and other people are going to express concerns about what we think detracts from the game. You're a fanboy though, and you smile and grab a bottle of KY when CCP bends you over a barrel. ---
Ardetia Killer Koalas R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.07.30 08:07:00 - [23] perhaps, but theres a line, and i see the same people posting again and again on the same damn thing try wiki "mesh networking" its one of the few things i never want to dabble with again...
Pikkuhukka Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2010.07.30 08:08:00 - [24] cant wait to see what ccp has to say in their next dev blog, waiting for it with saliva dripping out of mouth
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.30 08:18:00 - [25] Edited by: Ressiv on 30/07/2010 08:20:27 Originally by: Liang Nuren You're right. Its actually much higher than 2000. There's been 2000 in the assembly hall thread alone. Yeah .. devide by 2 or 3 to get rid of the alts, and you still have a very small % of the total player base. Also, there is no concensus .. group 1 is going on about LAG, group 2 is going on about rofklets, and group 3 is not sure what they are going on about, but seems stuck in the "hell yeah, at least my life has a goal now" mood. Quote: The evidence to support the claims is pretty overwhelming, actually. Let's consider just the most recent expansion: Planetary Interaction Planetary Interaction is a click-grind-fest. This was mentioned, repeatedly, in its testing phase and it had plenty of time to be fixed before release. Furthermore, the PI refining and NPC sell order **ups were both mentioned before they went live. CCP did not take any action to resolve these issues before they happened. There wasnt much to resolve, was there ? Either kill the market before, making the product skyrocket in price and scarce all in one day, or have a few people with their brain turned on make some ISK out of it, and not have half of New Eden without POS fuel, etc. I wonder what would have happned if they 'fixed' that ... I think the forum would need moar diskspace in that case ... Quote:** Conclusion: CCP isn't listening and isn't dedicated to Excellence. There's no excuse for releasing an expansion in this manner. If you realize the PI 'expansion' is more the complete groundwork to build Dust on, and probably ment restructuring of a major part of the codebase, without making current issues worse, then yeah, excellence does not always mean eyecandy or just lag. And, yeah, I dont like PI, Dust or Incarna or what they promise at all, except that it will mean more people in EVE, and thus more money to allocate to resources to fiz the rest of the game. You guys act like EVE is dead and CCP is trying to get the last few $ out if it before declaring it dead officially. You dont put new features in something you expect to die in a few months. So, taking all the evidence that they DO care combined with the interpreted 'evidence' that they don't, I don't see any reason to go with the stance that they dont care. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.30 08:23:00 - [26] Frankly, the fact that this has pulled me out of Ships & Modules should highlight just how big of an epic ***up this is. I've made 13000 posts on the Eve forums in the last 4 years (overwhelmingly in S&M), and I'm actually posting less about this topic than I have over previous issues I deemed important - like mission efficiency, gate camping, solo/small gang PVP, the minutiae of fleet combat theory, active tanking vs passive tanking, etc. I mean, can you imagine* what kind of ** up it takes to pull a bookish nerd like me out of my hidey hole to come **ing in General ***ing discussion? -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.30 08:32:00 - [27] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 30/07/2010 08:34:36 Originally by: Ressiv Yeah .. devide by 2 or 3 to get rid of the alts, and you still have a very small % of the total player base. Also, there is no concensus .. group 1 is going on about LAG, group 2 is going on about rofklets, and group 3 is not sure what they are going on about, but seems stuck in the "hell yeah, at least my life has a goal now" mood. I suppose we could use that theory, but by that theory I'm going to say that 95% of the miners in highsec are actually just macromining alts of the same guy. Maybe you should go check that thread out - I don't think its all a small number of people repeatedly posting with alts. Quote: There wasnt much to resolve, was there ? Either kill the market before, making the product skyrocket in price and scarce all in one day, or have a few people with their brain turned on make some ISK out of it, and not have half of New Eden without POS fuel, etc. I wonder what would have happned if they 'fixed' that ... I think the forum would need moar diskspace in that case ... Yes, because guaranteeing your latest expansion will not be profitable in the near future is a sure way to succeed. No, they would have been better off to let the people stockpile what they could of POS fuel (ha ha ha, as if we don't already have 6 months to a year in POS fuel just sitting there?) and let the market do what it will. But if that's not good enough for you, maybe we should talk about the previous expansions with Evegate, Technitium ("The sky is the limit!" and the sov system they haven't yet found time to "iterate on"? Maybe rockets or hybrids? Oh, maybe damps? Or how about some Faction Warfare and lowsec? Quote: If you realize the PI 'expansion' is more the complete groundwork to build Dust on, and probably ment restructuring of a major part of the codebase, without making current issues worse, then yeah, excellence does not always mean eyecandy or just lag. You do realize that it doesn't **ing matter if its groundwork right? Groundwork doesn't have to be released in a ty state. The expansion could have been delayed a month to put some polish on it. As I said - the entire expansion was very poorly rolled presented and rolled out. Quote: And, yeah, I dont like PI, Dust or Incarna or what they promise at all, except that it will mean more people in EVE, and thus more money to allocate to resources to fiz the rest of the game. Funny, because I DO like them. Quote:** So, taking all the evidence that they DO care combined with the interpreted 'evidence' that they don't, I don't see any reason to go with the stance that they dont care. So would direct quotes from CCP Sr Producers citing that they don't care about feature quality help here? -Liang Ed: Well... I like the ideas behind Dust and Incarna. I just think they'll be released with CCP's typical "groundwork" attitude... and then never iterated on to be fixed. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.30 08:33:00 - [28] Originally by: Liang Nuren I mean, can you imagine what kind of ** up it takes to pull a bookish nerd like me out of my hidey hole to come **ing in General ***ing discussion? Oh my .. feeling important are we ? Please point me to where I can read up on the (new to me) fatcs you just presented that: 1. Your postcount adds weight to the discussion 2. Your habits are to be taken as indicators for truth It only took a place for you to be able to speak your thoughts on your percieved reality, nothing more and nothing less. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.30 08:47:00 - [29] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 30/07/2010 08:51:00 Originally by: Ressiv Oh my .. feeling important are we ? Not really "important" per se, but definitely I've been a fixture of a specific forum for the last 4 years. Considering the general attitude towards me, I've mostly been a positive influence - though that isn't to say I don't have detractors. I don't think that me saying "RAGE CCP SUX" would make anyone quit the game. Quote: Please point me to where I can read up on the (new to me) fatcs you just presented that: 1. Your postcount adds weight to the discussion 2. Your habits are to be taken as indicators for truth It only took a place for you to be able to speak your thoughts on your percieved reality, nothing more and nothing less. This, kids, is what we like to call a "straw man". See, you take a position that's easy to strike down and you attribute it to someone else. Then you strike it down and say you invalidated their opinion/argument. Quote: Edit on last post: That quote has been taken out of context and is being abused to suit your needs. All they said is what they said. The only conclusion you could reach on that is that their data sucks, and you'd still have a hard time making a case for that. Unless you actually work for CCP or you were in that meeting, I very seriously doubt you can say that it was taken out of context. In fact, we could take the whole paragraph that it was embedded in as further proof that CCP is completely without a clue these days. Simple effort does not equate to excellence - certainly not in the face of such monumental ***ups as the recent expansions have been. I realize that there's a business line of thought that says "The first to market wins" - but I've seen enough counter examples to this to realize that giving your customers a turd and calling it corn on the cob is just not good business sense. It's really simple: - CCP should have noticed that PI was an unpolished frustrating mess. - CCP should have noticed the reprocessing and NPC buy order shenanigans. - CCP should have noticed that Eve Gate wasn't going to be received well until it had features that people would use. - CCP should have noticed that The Sky Is The Limit On Tech. - CCP should have noticed the nano nerf was going to kill blasters and rockets. - CCP should have noticed that the damp nerf was going to kill damping ships. Why should they have noticed these things? BECAUSE WE GAVE THEM FEEDBACK FROM THE TEST SERVER ON THEM. Simply put: its more important to CCP that they release "on schedule" than that they release Excellence and Quality. This isn't new, the "misquote" certainly seems to back up the evidence here. -Liang Ed: Also, it's pretty easy* to make a case for "their data sucks" or "the quote is just outright incorrect" - take your pick. Just try taking a look at successful services and software. Also: I'm going to bed. Good night. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.30 09:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 30/07/2010 08:51:00 Originally by: Ressiv Oh my .. feeling important are we ? Not really "important" per se, but definitely I've been a fixture of a specific forum for the last 4 years. Considering the general attitude towards me, I've mostly been a positive influence - though that isn't to say I don't have detractors. I don't think that me saying "RAGE CCP SUX" would make anyone quit the game. Quote: Please point me to where I can read up on the (new to me) fatcs you just presented that: 1. Your postcount adds weight to the discussion 2. Your habits are to be taken as indicators for truth It only took a place for you to be able to speak your thoughts on your percieved reality, nothing more and nothing less. This, kids, is what we like to call a "straw man". See, you take a position that's easy to strike down and you attribute it to someone else. Then you strike it down and say you invalidated their opinion/argument. Quote: Edit on last post: That quote has been taken out of context and is being abused to suit your needs. All they said is what they said. The only conclusion you could reach on that is that their data sucks, and you'd still have a hard time making a case for that. Unless you actually work for CCP or you were in that meeting, I very seriously doubt you can say that it was taken out of context. In fact, we could take the whole paragraph that it was embedded in as further proof that CCP is completely without a clue these days. Simple effort does not equate to excellence - certainly not in the face of such monumental ***ups as the recent expansions have been. I realize that there's a business line of thought that says "The first to market wins" - but I've seen enough counter examples to this to realize that giving your customers a turd and calling it corn on the cob is just not good business sense. It's really simple: - CCP should have noticed that PI was an unpolished frustrating mess. - CCP should have noticed the reprocessing and NPC buy order shenanigans. - CCP should have noticed that Eve Gate wasn't going to be received well until it had features that people would use. - CCP should have noticed that The Sky Is The Limit On Tech. - CCP should have noticed the nano nerf was going to kill blasters and rockets. - CCP should have noticed that the damp nerf was going to kill damping ships. Why should they have noticed these things? BECAUSE WE GAVE THEM FEEDBACK FROM THE TEST SERVER ON THEM. Simply put: its more important to CCP that they release "on schedule" than that they release Excellence and Quality. This isn't new, the "misquote" certainly seems to back up the evidence here. -Liang Ed: Also, it's pretty easy* to make a case for "their data sucks" or "the quote is just outright incorrect" - take your pick. Just try taking a look at successful services and software. Also: I'm going to bed. Good night. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================



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