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Did players/forum posters win once again finnally?

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Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.07.30 09:30:00 - [31] Originally by: Ghoest Ive been playing online games and posting on forum for 10-15 years. -First public forum input mattered a lot. It was a vital feedback tool for devs. Especially after games went live. -Then we figured out how to "control" forums. This meant clever posters as they could frame the issue discussions. This lead to the idea about the famous 5% of players who made 95% of the noise - which was kinda true. Mythics DAOC became maybe the worst example of gamer prejudices influencing game design. It was bad -Then devs decided to almost totally ignore forums(and other subscriber generated feedback.) and Instead rely more on metrics, bug reports, email polls and in house testing. Initially this paid dividends. It let devs focus obvious problems and stop chasing the flavor of the month issues. -But later it led to a big disconnect between gamer concerns and developer focus. When you become comfortable ignoring complaints because they represent a minority of players its not hard to ignore complaints that dont mesh with your own visions and preferred priorities. EVE ever since Dominion has been an example of this. -Maybe now well have a more balanced persective from devs. One obvious solution is to have more of the devs who actually play the game. BRB, applying for business patent on my revolutionary new idea, I will call it "product testing". Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Allestin Villimar Retrieval Artists Ltd.	Posted - 2010.07.30 09:36:00 - [32] Not really on topic anymore but... Originally by: Ghoest Mythics DAOC became maybe the worst example of gamer prejudices influencing game design. It was bad As someone who played DAoC for quite a while, that's not what happened at all. Mythic decided to pump out expansion after expansion full of crappy content that was both extremely bugged and extremely unbalanced. When the second expansion came out, spell casters could cast so fast it was impossible to interrupt them. You couldn't do half of the things in the expansion because none of it worked. Time they should have spent fixing that expansion was spent working on the next expansion which brought out new classes capable of taking on entire groups solo. Around this time a huge portion of their development team shifted to working on Warhammer, and support for DAoC pretty much died. What little staff remained was mostly just customer service who had no real ability to change the game. So yes, CCP can learn from Mythic, but it's not "stop listening to your players". It's "Stop producing expansions that are buggy and focus on fixing things up before releasing new things". If Mythic had actually listened to their players more, they might have more than 5000 people who actively play DAoC. One thing most developers don't realize is that you've got a testing base of your entire user base - and many of them have far more experience playing games, and playing games competitively, than the developers do. They'll find the bugs, they'll find the imbalances, and they'll scream for them to be fixed. Listening to them is the best thing you can do. ...in bed.
Genya Arikaido	Posted - 2010.07.30 09:53:00 - [33] I state my opinion: I believe that CCP no longer really cares about us and the quality of the game they produce. Having said said such, there's a little known/applied law of customer service that for every client or customer that gives you feedback, 100 more think the same way and don't have the time or inclination to tell you. Forgot that one, CCP? CCP views Incarna as part of Internet Spaceships. We view it as social fluff. This is the rift. This is the rift because they have essentially said that, pardon the paraphrasing, "We are applying minimum effort to solving the biggest existing problems in EVE right now, so that we can put devs on bringing you Incarna now, rather than continuing to push it back. When we are done with Incarna/Dust, estimated to be in 18 months, we can focus more on polishing the game that made us successful in the first place." That might not have been your intended message, CCP, but that's what was heard. However, as much as I like to give the benefit of the doubt when there is room for it, there were more than a few points in the threadnought and in the CSM minutes that highlighted how dead on that tl;dr is. Fix the beeping game. First. Now. Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
Shar Totanka	Posted - 2010.07.30 10:03:00 - [34] Nobody wins until they stop production of incarna, or at least move the majority of the people working on incarna onto working on existing content. This won't happen though since some manager who's completely out of touch with the game thinks 3D chat clients are cool. In the next 18 months of nothing happening to the actual game CCP risks that it'll whither and die.
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.07.30 10:45:00 - [35] Edited by: Ghoest on 30/07/2010 10:47:26 Originally by: Allestin Villimar Not really on topic anymore but... Originally by: Ghoest Mythics DAOC became maybe the worst example of gamer prejudices influencing game design. It was bad As someone who played DAoC for quite a while, that's not what happened at all. Mythic decided to pump out expansion after expansion full of crappy content that was both extremely bugged and extremely unbalanced. When the second expansion came out, spell casters could cast so fast it was impossible to interrupt them. You couldn't do half of the things in the expansion because none of it worked. Time they should have spent fixing that expansion was spent working on the next expansion which brought out new classes capable of taking on entire groups solo. Around this time a huge portion of their development team shifted to working on Warhammer, and support for DAoC pretty much died. What little staff remained was mostly just customer service who had no real ability to change the game. So yes, CCP can learn from Mythic, but it's not "stop listening to your players". It's "Stop producing expansions that are buggy and focus on fixing things up before releasing new things". If Mythic had actually listened to their players more, they might have more than 5000 people who actively play DAoC. One thing most developers don't realize is that you've got a testing base of your entire user base - and many of them have far more experience playing games, and playing games competitively, than the developers do. They'll find the bugs, they'll find the imbalances, and they'll scream for them to be fixed. Listening to them is the best thing you can do. I played DAoC the first 6 years and posted on forums. I disagree. They did make some bad decisions from the top. And many elements including time itself led to DAoCs decline. But the nature and effect of forum feedback did go as I said. Left axe nerf, dramatic back and forth assassin changes, and elements of frontiers are some good examples. Wherever you went - Here you are.
nu artiste Gallente Metalworks Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.03 07:45:00 - [36] Originally by: Ardetia Edited by: Ardetia on 30/07/2010 07:56:18 i wish ccp would just permaban all the vocal trolls from the forums such as liang forums would be more relevant again any more "lag" threads now and ill scream... february -> that way Quoted for truth Liang has always trolled my posts
nu artiste Gallente Metalworks Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.03 08:03:00 - [37] Originally by: Shar Totanka Nobody wins until they stop production of incarna, or at least move the majority of the people working on incarna onto working on existing content. This won't happen though since some manager who's completely out of touch with the game thinks 3D chat clients are cool. In the next 18 months of nothing happening to the actual game CCP risks that it'll whither and die. Incarna is awesome, I tend to think that WOW and Warhammer devs troll CCP about lag and incarna as a part of sabotage operation.
rootimus maximus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2010.08.03 10:13:00 - [38] Originally by: Ardetia i wish ccp would just permaban all the vocal trolls from the forums such as liang I don't know Liang at all, but if more trolls posted in as articulate a fashion as he does, the forum would be much easier to read. For all I know, he could be talking crap, but he comes across as knowing what he's talking about. Some of the more epic (and obvious) trolls on this forum don't even give the impression that they know what they're trying to say. Regarding this 5% vocal majority theory, I don't consider myself part of it (at least not in Eve) but I've still posted a couple of times regarding the bizarre state of affairs at CCP. I don't believe I'm the only one in this catagory, either.
Wyke Mossari Gallente Staner Industries	Posted - 2010.08.03 10:23:00 - [39] Originally by: Ban Doga Originally by: Babel Originally by: Liang Nuren CCP (with a couple of exceptions) doesn't play their own game. In what language does 'couple' mean 'at least 38 [bothered to respond]' ? You are very bad at making a point when contrary evidence is still fresh :) According to Wikipedia CCP has 353 employees. 38 out of 353 employees is not even 11%. That's quite consistent with "with a couple of exceptions". But only 5% of players post on the forum, so obviously more than 200% of CCP employees must play.
Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.08.03 12:00:00 - [40] Originally by: Babel Originally by: Liang Nuren CCP (with a couple of exceptions) doesn't play their own game. In what language does 'couple' mean 'at least 38 [bothered to respond]' ? You are very bad at making a point when contrary evidence is still fresh :) There are many dievs that do seem to play the game, but that isn't the problem. The problem is that the CCP decision makers are more interested in new business than in retaining current business. It's also what will in all likelihood kill eve in the next couple of years.

Mallui Mallard	Posted - 2010.08.03 14:47:00 - [41] I guess the problem is not really atracting new players, but keeping those you atract. In WoW (oh noes I mentioned wow! shock, horror!) blizzard is basically scraping the game world and starting from ground up with Cataclysm, one of the reasons being they wanted to upgrade the starting areas. About 70% of new WoW players quit the game before lvl 10 because the current starting zones are terrible. Now think about EvE. When I joined one of the 'advices' I was given on the newbie corp was to stay docked for a month training skills. That is STUPID. As much as the game is fun when you have the skills/money to back it up, you can't deny it's pretty brutal on new players.


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