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Rifter NEEDS a shield boost bonus

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
MotherMoon Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 1009	Posted - 2012.07.23 21:08:00 - [1] - Quote SO here's the deal. every other frigate in it's class is now a tanking frig. with bonuses to resistances or armor rep amount. The new reaper changes coming out give the reaper a 15% bonus to shield boost amount The larger cyclone has a shield boost rep bonus Now you might say "leave my rifter alone!" but heres the thing. it's about to get 100% replaced by a better ship. The Slasher. The slasher has the same number of slots, the same but better bonuses than the rifter + a web range bonus. And it's faster than a rifter to boot. With the new ASBs, giving the rifter the new bonus puts in line with the minmatar noob frig, the cyclone, and the maelstrom with a nice boost to shield rep making that ASB much better, and giving the rifter back it's old school role of getting in fast and being a heavy tackle. Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Reicine Ceer Rodents of Unusual Size The Rat Race 46	Posted - 2012.07.23 21:32:00 - [2] - Quote Doesnt the slasher have like, 0 tank? Cant check as am at work.
MotherMoon Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 1009	Posted - 2012.07.23 21:32:00 - [3] - Quote Reicine Ceer wrote: Doesnt the slasher have like, 0 tank? Cant check as am at work. not anymore, I'll post it and the rifters stats. Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Mica Swanhaven Republic University Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2012.07.23 23:10:00 - [4] - Quote who is not getting more support, it's right on. I don't know if the shield boost is the solution, but something needs to be done. IT's completely missed the point. they can't even balanced 6 ships of the same race to all be useful in different ways? seriously? Give al frigates of the same race the same base stats. Then balance it by maing each one of them better at Tanking, speed, damage, scanning, EW so on.
Deena Amaj Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2012.07.23 23:48:00 - [5] - Quote I can only repeat what was said above. I doubt a bit that a shield boost is the solution - but it would be a start though. What I don't like about it is the ASB mechanics, but I fear it is here to stay so we have to deal with it. On the other hand, I always wanted to see the Rifter and other tough frigs with a bit more resilience of some sort. Since speed tank is not always an option, I fear some sort of role bonus in shields the only way to go. But if it gets too resilient, then it might cause imbalance vs the T2 Assault Frigates :/ Quote: Give al frigates of the same race the same base stats. Then balance it by maing each one of them better at Tanking, speed, damage, scanning, EW so on. I think you're right i nthat case. Or there has to be some sort of point system like with the alliance tournament, so like if points go here - then there has be something happening on the other end. I have a seperate idea that could help, but it is rather bulky in mass and I will refrain from derailing to avoid emorage. --- As for the frigs, it is getting clear that there is a serious domino-effect about to happen regarding these changes and it is good that the OP actually opened a thread about it. Several people at the Attack Ship sticky thread were also theorycrafting and came to the same result that Slasher is totally taking over the Rifter. Not to be mouthy, but I saw it coming. One of the main problems is ship bonuses featuring the same "ROF + DMG"-¦ instead of utility here, something else there. I've been flying Slasher a lot long before these awesome changes - in pvp. My hopes was to have more propulsion and rare tackling bonuses. okay, that cap-bonus to warp-tackling is okay... but not really what I personally wanted. For all light frigs like Slasher, I was hoping for something like AB bonus, or light bonus to web or scram range etc. As for Rifter, it was always great for its job as a tackler. But with these changes as they are, it will become rather obsolete :/. confirthisposmed "When I'm through with you, there won't be anything left..."
Mechael Ouroboros Executor Collective 182	Posted - 2012.07.24 06:25:00 - [6] - Quote That the rifter is supposedly a "combat vessel" (a line of ships whose specialties are damage and tank) and yet it has no tanking bonus is beyond me. Give all ships of the same class the same basic stats. Example: All frigates, across the board, have x shields, x armor, x structure, x speed, etc etc. Then adjust those stats by race. For example, Amarr get an extra x% armor, capacitor, and all the other things Amarr are supposed to be good at. Do this with all of the races. THEN adjust ships by role. So combat vessels get an extra x% ehp and an extra x weapon hardpoints. THEN give the ships their bonuses, based on ship line. Example, combat vessels get a damage bonus and a tanking bonus. Attack vessels get a speed bonus and a damage bonus. Then adjust all of the modules to work within the new ship stats. Wham, bam, thank you, ma'am. Balancing is mostly done. Tweak as necessary. Also note: each of the primary ship classes (Frigate, Cruiser, Battleship) should have one ship from each ship line in the T1 lineup. So one combat, attack, bombardment, EWar, and logistic ship. Destroyers and Battlecruisers should then mimic each other, being the natural counter for the ship size directly below them while being weak to the ship size above them. Dessies are the counter to frigates, but too big and slow and thus vulnerable to medium ships. Battlecruisers are the counter to cruisers, but big and slow and thus vulnerable to battleships. Slap the command bonuses on them (yes, command bonused destroyers for small gangs) and poof. Magic. While we're here, we may as well talk about balancing T1 vs T2 vs T3. Starting at the beginning, each T1 ship is now part of a ship line. Each ship line has two things it does well. Example, combat ships tank and damage. Easy enough. Now, give each T1 ship two T2 variants, one to specialize in each of the things that that ship line is good at. Again, using combat ships as an example, we would have one T2 combat ship that is really, really great at tanking but can't do much else very well (with the examption of damage, which it will still do better than other ships that don't specialize in damage.) Then the other T2 combat vessel obviously specializes in damage, and can't do much else very well (again, with the exception of tanking, which it will still do better than other ships that don't specialize in tanking.) This leaves the T1 ship smack dab in the middle between its T2 variants. It'll do more damage than the tanker version while not being as tanky, and it'll be tankier than the damage version while not doing as much damage. This makes sure that no ship is obsoleted in every area except price (which is currently the situation. Jags/Wolfs are better than Rifters in just about every way except cost, which is really not a very good thing.) And finally, T3's are supposed to be versatile, able to mix and match to do whatever the pilot needs them to do. This is by far the most difficult part of the balancing process, simply because it needs a lot of work to completely revamp the whole system. For every advantage should come a drawback. Want strong shields? It'll cost you something else. Want powerful missiles? It'll cost you something else. Want speed? Cost. Let the player choose the strengths and weaknesses of his ship with T3. This allows the T3 to min-max as well as be all-arounders, or anything in between, without making them outright superior to any other ship. It's really not that complicated, is it? Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 358	Posted - 2012.07.24 11:28:00 - [7] - Quote who fu*king cares about rifters?

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 781	Posted - 2012.07.24 11:40:00 - [8] - Quote We have fun things in mind for that minmatar shield boost bonus and tech one frigs. More information will come once we get the design a bit more polished.

StoneCold Eurotech Industries 31	Posted - 2012.07.24 11:41:00 - [9] - Quote the Black Rebel Rifter Club?
Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 630	Posted - 2012.07.24 12:18:00 - [10] - Quote Man, I knew the Slasher outperforms the Rifter with the new proposed statlines but I didn't realise by just how much until I saw those statlines next to each other. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge **.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006 ~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever.

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 787	Posted - 2012.07.24 13:20:00 - [11] - Quote One quick note, the cap recharge time on the Rifter is actually 125s giving it the same average cap/s as the Slasher (but with slightly more base cap)

Kieron VonDeux 55	Posted - 2012.07.24 14:18:00 - [12] - Quote Nice to see that the Slasher T1 hull will have some actual use beyond being an inty build requirement.
MotherMoon Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 1016	Posted - 2012.07.24 18:21:00 - [13] - Quote Oh yeah I love the new slasher http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Mechael Ouroboros Executor Collective 184	Posted - 2012.07.24 20:32:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Fozzie, you are fast becoming my favorite dev. P.S. Don't tell CCP Punkturis ... or CCP Diagoras ... or CCP Veritas ... or CCP Alice ... aaaah nevermind, I can't decide! Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it.
MotherMoon Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 1016	Posted - 2012.07.24 20:34:00 - [15] - Quote Mechael wrote: CCP Fozzie, you are fast becoming my favorite dev. P.S. Don't tell CCP Punkturis ... or CCP Diagoras ... or CCP Veritas ... or CCP Alice ... aaaah nevermind, I can't decide! right? http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Mechael Ouroboros Executor Collective 184	Posted - 2012.07.24 20:43:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: We have fun things in mind for that minmatar shield boost bonus and tech one frigs. More information will come once we get the design a bit more polished. Might want to change the "Recommended Certificates: Armor Tanking" when you do that. Even right now the rifter has a slightly better natural shield tank than armor, though it could easily go either way. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it.
MotherMoon Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 1016	Posted - 2012.07.24 20:50:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: One quick note, the cap recharge time on the Rifter is actually 125s giving it the same average cap/s as the Slasher (but with slightly more base cap) oh hey http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rifter update the item page, i just took the cap info from there. I'll update the op. also looking forward to what you guys have in mind. : ) http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Aurora RedNova Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.07.24 21:19:00 - [18] - Quote LOL. I REALLY don-¦t believe it. Rifter is for example still better than the Punisher but CCP needs to care about wining minnes that their T1 frig isn-¦t so overpowered as it was all the years. I really don-¦t get it. Why not buff the Punisher to be on par with Rifter, Merlin and Incursus? Lol. But if Minnies are wining CCP will do sth imediately. Yeah. The new Incursus was really something Gallente needed, Merlin is probably a litle bit op, Punisher is crap as always because it is an amarr ship and CCP doesn-¦t care about amarr and Rifter is okay too. It is especailly the only one frigate of the four ones (Rifter, Inc, Merlin, Pun) which has a bonus on weapons which do not need cap and has the ability as only one of them to choose damage type. But no. Minnies are wining that their Rfter is not overpowered as it was all the years before. LOL. And the best: CCP is reacting. Yes of course CCP. Give the Rifter more cap than the Punisher and a shield boost bonus and Minnies aren-¦t wining and everything is as always: WINMATAR. LOL

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 803	Posted - 2012.07.24 21:37:00 - [19] - Quote To be clear, the shield boost bonus isn't for the Rifter. We have something special in mind for it.

Deena Amaj Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.07.24 21:42:00 - [20] - Quote Aurora RedNova wrote: stuff Just saying, you could open a thread and talk about how to get amarr stuff like Punisher on par and compare with what the Rifter is going to be. Some already figured there would be a domino effect on balance as Attack Ships and the whatnots get their attention. It is just that people figured Slasher will be the better Rifter than the Rifter itself (as dumb as that sounds) so a few considered some things - Or let say Slasher is getting to equal to that of a Rifter, which is what many want to avoid here. I won't open my mouth too wide about Punisher because it is a special ship itself. I think we can agree it is a brawler just like the Merlin is - with those resistance bonuses. Just remember that Punisher and Rifter are very different as redundant as that sounds. Rifter is all about speed and tackling. Punisher is more or less more about obliterating ships. Imo, I think it is best to ask if the bonus magnitudes can be raised a bit on Punisher. As you said though, it has a bonus to DMG and TRACKING while having no-cap advantage on guns. I'd rather have something like velocity and tracking or agility and xyz etc. but that's just me. Personally, I don't like that either, which is why I prefer having two or three different frigate families than just one so things don't just compared all the time (but that is for another thread and topic). Back to Punisher. I would say to open a thread about Punisher and state why you think it needs buffs. By all means without trolling, I find there should be a win-Amarr, win-Caldari and win-Gallente too. Every ship should have its awesomeness and not just be shoved off the edge of the bed. confirthisposmed "When I'm through with you, there won't be anything left..."
Mechael Ouroboros Executor Collective 184	Posted - 2012.07.24 21:51:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: To be clear, the shield boost bonus isn't for the Rifter. We have something special in mind for it. Uh oh! Sounds scary! Will it be awesome, terribad, or meh?? Need to knooooow! Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it.
MotherMoon Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 1018	Posted - 2012.07.24 21:58:00 - [22] - Quote def do not want the rifter to be better than the slasher. I even want the probe personally to have a 10% bonus to armor hp per level as it's role bonus due to it's description saying it's suppose to be the hardest minmatar frigate to kill. I just saw that the slasher was better than the rifter in just about every way. So giving it something to stand apart, not stand above the slasher is the goal here. I'm calling it, a 50% reduction in shield booster cap use . :P http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Mechael Ouroboros Executor Collective 185	Posted - 2012.07.24 22:40:00 - [23] - Quote MotherMoon wrote: def do not want the rifter to be better than the slasher. I even want the probe personally to have a 10% bonus to armor hp per level as it's role bonus due to it's description saying it's suppose to be the hardest minmatar frigate to kill. I just saw that the slasher was better than the rifter in just about every way. So giving it something to stand apart, not stand above the slasher is the goal here. I'm calling it, a 50% reduction in shield booster cap use . :P Yes, but if not on the Rifter, which is supposedly the only tank-specialty ship (combat vessel) then where? Perhaps the Breacher? Bombardment vessels were supposed to have halfway decent tanks, but still ... wouldn't expect them to be tankier than combat vessels ... Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it.
Mechael Ouroboros Executor Collective 185	Posted - 2012.07.24 22:42:00 - [24] - Quote My guess is that it ties in somehow with rebalancing the ancillary shield boosters. A reduction in cap use doesn't help with the ASB much, so there's probably some sort of special rebalance in mind with those. But still, if not on the rifter, then where? Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it.
Manssell OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate 107	Posted - 2012.07.24 23:30:00 - [25] - Quote Aurora RedNova wrote: ... and has the ability as only one of them to choose damage type. .. Why do people keep saying this? Any frig that fits rockets or missiles also gets to choose damage types. And even gets T2 versions of all damage types, where as projectiles only get T2 explosive.
Mechael Ouroboros Executor Collective 185	Posted - 2012.07.24 23:34:00 - [26] - Quote Manssell wrote: Aurora RedNova wrote: ... and has the ability as only one of them to choose damage type. .. Why do people keep saying this? Any frig that fits rockets or missiles also gets to choose damage types. And even gets T2 versions of all damage types, where as projectiles only get T2 explosive. Not to mention that this is generally balanced by projectiles and missiles doing less overall damage than hybrids and lasers, in addition to what you just mentioned. Some people just speak before they think things through, I guess. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it.
MintyRoadkill Dovahkiin. Rebel Alliance of New Eden 0	Posted - 2012.07.25 00:27:00 - [27] - Quote Manssell wrote: Aurora RedNova wrote: ... and has the ability as only one of them to choose damage type. .. Why do people keep saying this? Any frig that fits rockets or missiles also gets to choose damage types. And even gets T2 versions of all damage types, where as projectiles only get T2 explosive. Frig missiles are horrible, though. And Caldari ships usually get kinetic-only bonuses, so when the only way to have semi-respectable DPS is to use kinetic, no, you're not really choosing your damage type.
Mechael Ouroboros Executor Collective 185	Posted - 2012.07.25 00:33:00 - [28] - Quote MintyRoadkill wrote: Manssell wrote: Aurora RedNova wrote: ... and has the ability as only one of them to choose damage type. .. Why do people keep saying this? Any frig that fits rockets or missiles also gets to choose damage types. And even gets T2 versions of all damage types, where as projectiles only get T2 explosive. Frig missiles are horrible, though. And Caldari ships usually get kinetic-only bonuses, so when the only way to have semi-respectable DPS is to use kinetic, no, you're not really choosing your damage type. lol math fail. Too much effort? When the DPS that you do is determined in a large part (arguably mostly) by the speed, sig, and resist profile of whatever you're shooting at, what that kinetic bonus winds up giving you us ultra-high dps against anything with a kinetic weakness (such as most reasonably fit Minmatar ships, as one example) and thanks to T2 damage-specific ammo, acceptable-to-great DPS against any other weakness. Combined with the fact that missiles allow you to not give a **** about transversal velocity or falloff, the argument against the kinetic bonus becomes quite negligible. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it.
Deena Amaj Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.07.25 00:34:00 - [29] - Quote Mechael wrote: Yes, but if not on the Rifter, which is supposedly the only tank-specialty ship (combat vessel) then where? Perhaps the Breacher? Bombardment vessels were supposed to have halfway decent tanks, but still ... wouldn't expect them to be tankier than combat vessels ... Ooow, would love to see Breacher (and The Probe and just about any other non-Rifter/Slasher) frig have a decent piece of the cake. But regarding Breacher, we'd have to look at Missile Frigs like Kestrel first, so that it is king of its class in that missle-frig case. Somewhere, I find those "bombardment frigs" need specific special Hi/med modules for their role or they will end up as they are before this love-patch attention. I don't know, something like multi-lauch / auto-FOF (with penalties of some sort) just to spice things up. Something to ensure that these fragile frigs must be dealt. However, one must be clear that it doesn't end up in something like WoW. OTOH, I got to say, having certain ship powers like in Star Trek Online for specific weapon types woudl be cool, but in the end -> This ain't Star Trek. Just find that there has to be a distinct-nowadays. Covops has stealth-warp/probing. Recon has Webbing/Scraming/Jamming/Ewar etc T1 BCs have facemelt stuff. Anyways, I'm getting off track . confirthisposmed "When I'm through with you, there won't be anything left..."
MintyRoadkill Dovahkiin. Rebel Alliance of New Eden 0	Posted - 2012.07.25 00:59:00 - [30] - Quote Mechael wrote: MintyRoadkill wrote: Manssell wrote: Aurora RedNova wrote: ... and has the ability as only one of them to choose damage type. .. Why do people keep saying this? Any frig that fits rockets or missiles also gets to choose damage types. And even gets T2 versions of all damage types, where as projectiles only get T2 explosive. Frig missiles are horrible, though. And Caldari ships usually get kinetic-only bonuses, so when the only way to have semi-respectable DPS is to use kinetic, no, you're not really choosing your damage type. lol math fail. Too much effort? When the DPS that you do is determined in a large part (arguably mostly) by the speed, sig, and resist profile of whatever you're shooting at, what that kinetic bonus winds up giving you us ultra-high dps against anything with a kinetic weakness (such as most reasonably fit Minmatar ships, as one example) and thanks to T2 damage-specific ammo, acceptable-to-great DPS against any other weakness. Combined with the fact that missiles allow you to not give a **** about transversal velocity or falloff, the argument against the kinetic bonus becomes quite negligible. T2 Minmatar ships specifically are weak to kinetic, yes. But kinetic is not a good damage type in the big picture. Why do you think almost all projectile pilots fit EMP, or at the very least, Phased Plasma? Rockets, which allow you to have passable on-paper DPS, do nothing even close to full damage against a small ship that's moving, and falloff/angular velocity issues aren't present, no, but that actually gives turret users the advantage of being able to fly straight at or away from missile ships to increase their damage, while the speed of the ship will allow it to reduce incoming DPS from missiles, because, as you noticed, angular velocity is not an issue. As for the math fail, i'm talking about how a Kestrel with 2 BCU II's and 4 Rocket launchers will do 136 DPS with non-kinetic Caldari Navy Rockets, while a similarly fit Merlin with 2 Mag stab II's and 3 Blasters will do 211 DPS with Caldari Navy Antimatter (which has two damage types). How's that for a math fail?

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