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EvE economy model scores again and is copied by other MMOs

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Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1679	Posted - 2012.07.23 21:45:00 - [1] - Quote In the last month I have played Guild Wars 2 beta. I found it to be of a proudness factor for EvE - a 10 years old game - to be copied by yet to be released MMOs. - As revealed by me months ago, it copied the PLEX concept and explicitly mentioned EvE on their official blog. It's even possible to trade these "PLEX alike" things to / from in game money. - They actually hired an in house economist (!) also shown in this video along with the other employees. - The beta auction house had graphs showing price trends (not sure they'll keep it at release). - They have "borrowed" from EvE the buy and sell orders vs market orders system. This is a video showing the EvE system (including screen shots) matched to the GW2 system. I'd almost want to see DUST 515: EvE "hack and slash" edition coming in the next years. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Rykker Bow 59	Posted - 2012.07.24 00:16:00 - [2] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In the last month I have played Guild Wars 2 beta. I found it to be of a proudness factor for EvE - a 10 years old game - to be copied by yet to be released MMOs. - As revealed by me months ago, it copied the PLEX concept and explicitly mentioned EvE on their official blog. It's even possible to trade these "PLEX alike" things to / from in game money. - They actually hired an in house economist (!) also shown in this video along with the other employees. - The beta auction house had graphs showing price trends (not sure they'll keep it at release). - They have "borrowed" from EvE the buy and sell orders vs market orders system. This is a video showing the EvE system (including screen shots) matched to the GW2 system. I'd almost want to see DUST 515: EvE "hack and slash" edition coming in the next years. I for one am excited to see eve being used as a model for other games and hope it continues. It will make for an easy transition straght into their games When you said 'to/from in game money' does that indicate RMT being done like in Diablo 3 where I can actually receive money for playing the game if I am lucky or good in the game? I'm sure the amount would be minimal but there seems to be trending away from pure subscription mmo's. I hope they make more profits under this business model and I believe most of the maket traders in this game feel the same as it is likely that we would be able to get into more games without paying for subsciptions if the plex system is used in more games edit: I believe that if their economies are becoming more evolved they need to create more outlets for ingame currency as well. My previous problems with mmo's was that I found areas where I could make mountains of ingame currency but had no outlet to spend it due to character or level restrictions. That does not happen in eve which is one of the main reasons this game is still very exciting to me.
Tash Avrat Osmanli Empire 0	Posted - 2012.07.24 03:36:00 - [3] - Quote EvE market system is the best there is and should be taken as a base for games that includes auction house or similar market in their games. I have always wondered why more games was not doing this, I am happy that GW2 is doing that. More reasons for me the try the game out.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1683	Posted - 2012.07.24 11:12:00 - [4] - Quote Rykker Bow wrote: When you said 'to/from in game money' does that indicate RMT being done like in Diablo 3 where I can actually receive money for playing the game if I am lucky or good in the game? I'm sure the amount would be minimal but there seems to be trending away from pure subscription mmo's. I hope they make more profits under this business model and I believe most of the maket traders in this game feel the same as it is likely that we would be able to get into more games without paying for subsciptions if the plex system is used in more games No, the to/from is meant to represent the PLEX system, where you can buy / sell PLEX to get game time or ISK. In GW2 you can buy / sell gems to get in game things (example: more bank slots, more character slots etc) or get gold. As for business model, after selling about 6.5M boxes for GW1, they sold 1.25M boxes in GW2 pre-purchases, this means they have yet to begin selling the "regular" game boxes after launch. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Private Pineapple Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 243	Posted - 2012.07.24 15:23:00 - [5] - Quote In addition, there is a conversion rate from gold to gems and vice versa. Or at least that's what I hear... I am the Kingpin of the Crime and Punishment forum. I am the rightful heir to the CSM 8 throne.
Bunyip Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2012.07.29 00:23:00 - [6] - Quote The fact they have an economy like Eve is great, but other games have tried it and failed. Star Trek tried it, but they miss one of the crucial factors. I pray they have a demand generator as well as the supplies, and hopefully a well-developed crafting system. In Eve, the demand is created by loss, whether by the environment (rarely) or other players (much more often). It's how the economy stays so robust and active. I thought GW2 was gonna follow the pattern of GW1, and be free to play (aside from the purchase of the original game). Admittedly, I haven't kept up with the game since some early news from MMORPG.com, so that information may be wrong. That said, I am thinking about playing it, and look forward to an excellent crafting system on the par of ATITD or SWG. Plus, the fact that Felicia Day is involved in the voicework makes it even more interesting.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1735	Posted - 2012.07.29 11:57:00 - [7] - Quote Bunyip, maybe you don't know but you are a celebrity! All the rookie chat ISDs, since endless years, always pointed newbies to read your bio. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Dav Slinker The Nyan Cat Pirates Nyanpire 25	Posted - 2012.08.01 01:22:00 - [8] - Quote Can this possibly work though? The reason eve works is because items get destroyed. Don't most 'modern' mmos only have items get damaged and that is it. Nyan Cat Pirate Recruitment Nyan Cat CEO Blog
Kalel Nimrott Wishful Desires Inc. Armada Assail 29	Posted - 2012.08.01 02:46:00 - [9] - Quote Private Pineapple wrote: In addition, there is a conversion rate from gold to gems and vice versa. Or at least that's what I hear... You are the kingpin of C&P, WHAT IN THE GOOD OL' HELL AREYOU DOING HERE????
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1774	Posted - 2012.08.01 07:03:00 - [10] - Quote Dav Slinker wrote: Can this possibly work though? The reason eve works is because items get destroyed. Don't most 'modern' mmos only have items get damaged and that is it. Ask yourself: what does it mean "destroyed" exactly? Destroyed is just one the most direct ways to say "item or currency sink". In GW2 you have 3 big items and currency sinks: - Accessories - In game services - Out of game services Accessories (a broad term) may embellish / empower other items. The relevant craft school has to be trained up first (first item sink) and then you make the accessory. Such accessory get spent when slotted and in case of a previous accessory, the latter gets automatically destroyed on replacement. Other things may be purchased as well, they are visual enhancements (there's no pay to win in GW, that's why it's considered a good game despite the lack of subscription). In game services involve very expensive and very inefficient (conversion wise, i.e. big cost per feature) add ons for the guild. Want a flashy tabard? You pay (I am just making an example). Want that the keeps you conquer have certain minor features? You pay. And so on. For more examples please watch the video in the OP, it lists more. Out of game services involve collectibles and additions. Additions include getting more character slots than the default, moving characters across servers and so on. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Rakshasa Taisab Sane Industries Inc. 897	Posted - 2012.08.01 09:04:00 - [11] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Dav Slinker wrote: Can this possibly work though? The reason eve works is because items get destroyed. Don't most 'modern' mmos only have items get damaged and that is it. Ask yourself: what does it mean "destroyed" exactly? Destroyed is just one the most direct ways to say "item or currency sink". This is a case where being overly pedantic ruins information exchange. While 'destroyed' can be used to describe what happens to materials used to construct an item, as merely a placeholder for a sink, it ignores the additional properties of that transformation. A ship blowing up is a transformation into ISK and salvage however there is also the aspect of a high-order item turning into lower-order items. Thus there's not just a ISK, mineral, etc faucets and sinks making up various cycles that are in relative balance, we also have cycles going from low-order to high-order back down to lower-order. Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In GW2 you have 3 big items and currency sinks: - Accessories - In game services - Out of game services Which completely lacks in GW2, basically it requires constant introduction of higher-order items in order to avoid saturation. Nyan
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1778	Posted - 2012.08.01 14:31:00 - [12] - Quote Rakshasa Taisab wrote: Thus there's not just a ISK, mineral, etc faucets and sinks making up various cycles that are in relative balance, we also have cycles going from low-order to high-order back down to lower-order. If by that statement you mean what is usually known as "disenchant" (from item you "salvage" components or other simpler things) then there's a consummable tool called "salvager" that breaks stuff down. Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In GW2 you have 3 big items and currency sinks: - Accessories - In game services - Out of game services Which completely lacks in GW2, basically it requires constant introduction of higher-order items in order to avoid saturation. Lacks? That's one of the main income sources for the game, you can be well sure they do have these features. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Andy DelGardo 75	Posted - 2012.08.01 15:02:00 - [13] - Quote I'm not sure u can call it "is copied" if only a few aspects are actually copied. The whole concept of being/measuring ISK efficiency is absent in GW2. Thats mainly because there is no short-term destruction of items i can acquire, which results in a total different mindset when choosing, buying or upgrading equipment. As a result the currency in EvE "ISK", has a much more dominant role in the game and economy. Example1: If u play PvP in GW2 u rarely run into the problem that u cant "effort" this activity or have to re-tune it to match your income, which is actually what i like about GW2, since its more casual and therefor more accessible, without the need to invest heavily into it (time). Example2: Ask a GW2 or WoW player what his average monthly Gold/H income is, now do the same to a EvE player. Example3: In GW2 u never end up asking yourself, should i buy this shiny new longsword or may i loose it in 2 days. Thats why in GW2 like in WoW and any other theme-park MMO u are much less concerned about the in-game currency/market and more about mechanics and gameplay and progression. So while i see it as a improvement over the WoW system, i don't think they actually copied EvE's "economy model" at all, they picked some features that made sense to them and thats it, but it won't change the general tone of the in-game economy and its theme "parkish" overall appeal, which is also reflected in the other game aspects like gameplay/quests and death system. Its still a very accessible and fight mechanic centric theme park mmo, which is fine. bye Andy PS: I'm also skeptical how the RM effects actual PvE and PvP gameplay, i don't think its "Pay to win" in the direct sense, but i hope they achieve there monetizing goals, without sacrificing there overall vision or balance. As a bad example i used to play Vindictus, but they really changed it into a "de-facto" "Pay to win" after the initial release. A good example would be LoL and a "mhhh" example would be WoT, since in a clanfight u always hear quotes like "Do u have Gold ammo? If not go buy some.", so in WoT Gold ammo is "nearly" accepted as a de-facto standard to be competitive in clan wars.
Bluestream3 the Goose Flock 17	Posted - 2012.08.01 15:44:00 - [14] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Dav Slinker wrote: Can this possibly work though? The reason eve works is because items get destroyed. Don't most 'modern' mmos only have items get damaged and that is it. Ask yourself: what does it mean "destroyed" exactly? Destroyed is just one the most direct ways to say "item or currency sink". In GW2 you have 3 big items and currency sinks: - Accessories - In game services - Out of game services Accessories (a broad term) may embellish / empower other items. The relevant craft school has to be trained up first (first item sink) and then you make the accessory. Such accessory get spent when slotted and in case of a previous accessory, the latter gets automatically destroyed on replacement. Other things may be purchased as well, they are visual enhancements (there's no pay to win in GW, that's why it's considered a good game despite the lack of subscription). In game services involve very expensive and very inefficient (conversion wise, i.e. big cost per feature) add ons for the guild. Want a flashy tabard? You pay (I am just making an example). Want that the keeps you conquer have certain minor features? You pay. And so on. For more examples please watch the video in the OP, it lists more. Out of game services involve collectibles and additions. Additions include getting more character slots than the default, moving characters across servers and so on. I won't pretend to know a lot about GW2. But wouldn't those accessories compare better to ammunition, drugs, cap boosters etc when it comes to Eve? I realise the market for accessories is likely a larger part of the game in GW to compensate, but I don't think those kinds of things is comparable to items that are actually destroyed in Eve. Like a previous poster said, theme park MMOs usually rely on introducing better items all the time to replace the old ones, and I think it will be hard to get an economy that is as interesting as Eve is like that. The currency sinks is of course another matter, which all games need to have to have a working economy.
Zeta Zhul Preemptive Paranoia 35	Posted - 2012.08.01 16:20:00 - [15] - Quote @ VV Thought you might like to read this: Superstitious Fund: Too mystic to fail It's amusing. But they also link to the website that has the source to the trading bot. **note to CCP: this is -NOT- a trading bot in EO. This is a trading bot to trade in RL markets. This is a purely informative link that I think VV might be interested in.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1778	Posted - 2012.08.01 16:22:00 - [16] - Quote I did not say they copied the "decisions have consequences", "butterfly effect" etc. "serious" EvE mechanics. After all it's a game with a 5M+ playerbase target not 400k and its objective is fun, e-sport alike fast and twitch PvP. The economy model is not the economy (imagine the former being a blueprint), it's the a global template with general similarities like gems borrowing from PLEX concepts. If you really wanted an hard mode economy including grievous losses and long term plans then your bet could be on Project Entropia, where currency is convertible from and to real cash. Losing your ship in there really maps to a true money loss. Its economy model, however, is not openly stating it derives from EvE concepts. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Andy DelGardo 75	Posted - 2012.08.01 16:59:00 - [17] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I did not say they copied the "decisions have consequences", "butterfly effect" etc. "serious" EvE mechanics. After all it's a game with a 5M+ playerbase target not 400k and its objective is fun, e-sport alike fast and twitch PvP. The economy model is not the economy (imagine the former being a blueprint), it's the a global template with general similarities like gems borrowing from PLEX concepts. Ah oki i understand your point, but i think the available isk/gold sinks and isk/gold inflation systems are part of the economic model/template. So to make it quick, i think GW2 is like 80% WoW and maybe 15% EvE, economic wise, ofc thats highly unscientific and i just pulled those numbers from my guts :p bye Andy
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1779	Posted - 2012.08.01 17:15:00 - [18] - Quote Andy DelGardo wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I did not say they copied the "decisions have consequences", "butterfly effect" etc. "serious" EvE mechanics. After all it's a game with a 5M+ playerbase target not 400k and its objective is fun, e-sport alike fast and twitch PvP. The economy model is not the economy (imagine the former being a blueprint), it's the a global template with general similarities like gems borrowing from PLEX concepts. Ah oki i understand your point, but i think the available isk/gold sinks and isk/gold inflation systems are part of the economic model/template. So to make it quick, i think GW2 is like 80% WoW and maybe 15% EvE, economic wise, ofc thats highly unscientific and i just pulled those numbers from my guts :p bye Andy Well, the linked video shows exactly how it is. After all if you buy an Official toy Ferrari, it "is" still a Ferrari even if it's clearly 99.99999% not the real thing but just something that follows the original template. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Andy DelGardo 75	Posted - 2012.08.01 17:57:00 - [19] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Well, the linked video shows exactly how it is. After all if you buy an Official toy Ferrari, it "is" still a Ferrari even if it's clearly 99.99999% not the real thing but just something that follows the original template. Well oki, but symbolically speaking the GW2 "Ferrari" is not actually "licensed" by Ferrari, is just a Red Car, with doors and 4 wheels and while it body looks similar, it don't has a high powered V12 engine and uses a 4 cylinder 120HP engine. So is it a Ferrari now or just a cheap ass underpowered red sportscar, borrowing some car-body's designs? bye :p
Anya Ohaya School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 146	Posted - 2012.08.02 10:57:00 - [20] - Quote Some odd thinks about the Eve economy: A lot of new player churn means a lot of modules sold. If they leave, they rarely bother selling their stuff. A lot of stuff accumulates in hangers. I have stuff in over 70 stations, and billions in assets. This is kind of a stuff-sink and is probably part of the cause of demand in Eve (not me personally, but players with lots of assets). This sort of hording is less likely in most MMOs (impossible in many).
Irken Slushk G-Force Developments 3	Posted - 2012.08.02 12:08:00 - [21] - Quote Tera Online also uses a plex method, check it out if your interested.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1883	Posted - 2012.08.24 17:37:00 - [22] - Quote ... and now they even post their little "QEN!" Look at this and tell me if it does not sound familiar. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Sturmwolke 260	Posted - 2012.08.25 02:56:00 - [23] - Quote Link broken. Looked around and found the same thing here : https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/john-smith-on-the-guild-wars-2-virtual-economy/ Doesn't really tell much about anything tbh. GW2 isn't really single sharded like EVE, as far as I'm aware. How would the EVE market model would turn out under such circumstance?
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1884	Posted - 2012.08.25 06:14:00 - [24] - Quote Yes I fixed the link. Looks like they put some session unique ID to make linking pictures impossible. Ah, this is their "copy" of the NEX store: here are pilot sunglasses to purchase with their "aurum". Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Dalden V Blue Lounge Industries Blue Dynamics 6	Posted - 2012.08.25 10:04:00 - [25] - Quote Another article for you: http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/08/the-guild-wars-2-economy-as-seen-by-its-dark-and-mysterious-money-wizard/
Rhivre TarNec 21	Posted - 2012.08.25 10:20:00 - [26] - Quote Sturmwolke wrote: Link broken. Looked around and found the same thing here : https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/john-smith-on-the-guild-wars-2-virtual-economy/ Doesn't really tell much about anything tbh. GW2 isn't really single sharded like EVE, as far as I'm aware. How would the EVE market model would turn out under such circumstance? GW2 is not single sharded, no, but the market is global, not restricted to server.
David Forge Forge Enterprises 133	Posted - 2012.08.25 17:11:00 - [27] - Quote CCP should pull an Apple and sue.
Jacabon Mere Capital Storm. 12	Posted - 2012.08.26 22:32:00 - [28] - Quote David Forge wrote: CCP should pull an Apple and sue. Oh no, they have a square market window too!! Capital Storm is recruiting Aussies for Lowsec pvp and money making. Join "Capital Storm Pub" channel ingame.
Salpad Carebears with Attitude 45	Posted - 2012.08.27 01:00:00 - [29] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: - They have "borrowed" from EvE the buy and sell orders vs market orders system. This is a video showing the EvE system (including screen shots) matched to the GW2 system. The lack of Buy Orders in World of Warcraft was a serious pain in the ass. Often I'd want something for my low'ish level character (level 40 or 45 or so) and there's be nothing for sale in the Auction House, because all the veteran players had already dinged to level 70 (or 80) and so everybody who farmed only farmed stuff that was of interest to max level characters. And I had no way to counteract that. Not being able to put up Buy Orders, I had no way to increase my bid, again and again, until finally it reached a cost:bother ratio where the farmers could actually be arsed to cater to my need. A Sell Order-only market isn't efficient communication, at all.
Salpad Carebears with Attitude 45	Posted - 2012.08.27 01:04:00 - [30] - Quote Dav Slinker wrote: Can this possibly work though? The reason eve works is because items get destroyed. Don't most 'modern' mmos only have items get damaged and that is it. I don't know how GW and GW2 works, but in World of Warcraft, almost all worthwhile items become "soulbound" when equipped for the first time. That's a flag on the item, meaning it cannot be traded or sold to another player, in any way. Direct hand-to-hand swap, Auction House, sent by mail. Nothing works. You can sell to an NPC vendor (at a fixed value - much lower than market value), or scrap the item (no recoup), or sometimes you can dis-echant or otherwise dismantle the material into components. In this way, WoW prevents recycling of items already used by one character, and that does function as a kind of "sink".

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