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CCP Congratulations! Your dream of movable plex's come true!

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:14:00 - [1] Mr CCP ran of giggling into the night. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:23:00 - [2] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Like it or not, the current sale price of ISK is ZERO. It can't be sold, it can't be bought, therefore PLEXes, items, etc, all have zero real-money value. That's true to an extent. But clearly ISK has 'a' relative value because of the relationship between buying the game time service and its corresponding in game ISK value. What you cant do is convert ISK all the way back into real-money - the closest approximation is to convert it into game time (which you would otherwise had to have paid real money to have). Because we can do this conversion is possible to say that ISK has an approximate real money value - its just not practical to state that every time we make that comparison. Whilst items in game aren't "sold" in the literal sense (all of them being the ownership of CCP) they are exchanged within the framework of the game - again its not practical to state this every time we talk of 'exchanging' an item within that framework. What is sold, by CCP, is access to the EVE Online game service - which through conversion into the framework of the game (i.e a PLEX) can subsequently be lost without CCP having to honour the implied exchange of real money for access to the EVE Online service. It's that implication which creates the moral quandary and the resultant impression that CCP is getting money for nothing. Whether you think that is morally right is a question only each of us can answer alone. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:59:00 - [3] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Cailais It's that implication which creates the moral quandary and the resultant impression that CCP is getting money for nothing. There is no moral quandary here at all. You are never required to risk anything in the process of using PLEXes or GTCs. CCP has offered a system where you can buy, sell, and use PLEXes without ever having to expose them to any risk: simply buy them (after carefully reading the contract or sale price) and then apply them without taking them out of the station, or convert your GTC in the station you intend to sell the PLEX from and then immediately put it on the market/contracts. The only time your PLEXes are at risk is if you voluntarily decide to take risks in exchange for perceived gain. CCP does not require you to do so, so CCP can not be blamed if taking that risk results in losses. The entire "destroyable PLEX" change is a benefit to the players. Those who do not want risk experience zero change, those who wish to do risky things with their PLEXes are now able to do so. CCP allows, through its in game mechanics, for a plex to be moved or lost. Admittedly it doesnt require this but is has enabled it. CCP could have enabled another mechanism - for example one where by a PLEX could be instantly transferred but chose not to. One would assume that it chose its current mechanism on the assumption that some PLEX items would be lost. When this event occurred it would receive money without having to then provide a service to a player; again CCP deliberately chose this option. The moral question in this case is should CCP have implemented its current mechanism rather than an alternative mechanism? Is it morally right to accept payment for a service you know you may not have to provide according to the rules you yourself have established? C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:49:00 - [4] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Cailais Is it morally right to accept payment for a service you know you may not have to provide according to the rules you yourself have established? CCP provided the service: two PLEX items. CCP's obligation to the purchaser (whether purchased from CCP directly or from a third party) of the GTC has been completed. The fact that the PLEX owner decided it wold be a better use of his PLEXes to suicide them into a waiting gank instead of applying them to his account does not magically give CCP extra obligations here. Quote: The moral question in this case is should CCP have implemented its current mechanism rather than an alternative mechanism? WHY should CCP have implemented an alternative mechanism? It is already 100% risk-free to use a PLEX or GTC. The ability to do potentially dangerous things with your PLEXes is optional. By this reasoning, CCP should also have implemented a different method for selling them. After all, what's the difference between losing your PLEXes by getting your ship destroyed and losing your PLEXes by selling them too cheaply on the market? Perhaps CCP should have made it impossible to sell a PLEX for less than 95% of the average market price? I think its debatable that CCP have fulfilled their obligations, they haven't supplied anyone with any game time as a result of a plex loss - the primary service they provide. Your second point is fine - if I sell a plex to cheaply that's my own stupid fault: but the player who receives it still gets game time once converted to a GTC. I have zero issue with the ISK loss: my issue is that the Game Time itself is lost - game time that was purchased by someone, at some stage. CCP was paid for that potential Game Time and now no longer has to provide it. Is that right? the hydrostatic capsule blog
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Merin Ryskin If I buy a GTC, convert it into PLEXes, and they are destroyed with my ship, I have "lost" 60 days of game time. And CCP has to provide what as a result? - Nothing. Originally by: Merin Ryskin If I buy a GTC, apply it to my account, and then decide not to log into EVE for two months, I have "lost" 60 days of game time. CCP is still providing access to its service, it just so happens that isnt used in this instance but thats a value judgement on the part of the buyer. Originally by: Merin Ryskin If I buy a GTC, convert it into PLEXes, then sell those PLEXes to a player who then quits the game (and deletes their characters) before using them, someone has "lost" game time that CCP does not have to provide. Again it would still has to potentially provide those services. In example 2 and 3 CCP still has the potential to be required to honour its half of the deal. Once the plex is destroyed that requirement has gone. It is of course a question of relative value. A player may chose not to utilise the PLEX for game time (quit, not log on etc) in which case CCP has gotten a good deal. But the likelihood of that occurring is no different to someone who has subbed for an account. With the PLEX CCP is working on the expectation that it will be paid for doing absolutely nothing. In fact its has hard wired into the game a higher % chance that this will indeed be the case. Now you can argue for all eternity that it wasn't game time but two plexes that were purchased but from my perspective that is being pedantic and arguing over a description when we both know perfectly well that a PLEX is, to all intents and purposes, an ISK trade able form of the game time code. By making a PLEX destroyable CCP have explicitly factored in a source of revenue that they do not have to recompense with game time. I, personally, find that disturbing although I understand the logic of it from a business perspective. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:43:00 - [6] Originally by: uNtOldPAIN CCP has nothing to do with this... With the exception of enabling it to occur in the first place. Apart from that you're right they're not involved. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:56:00 - [7] Originally by: Mag's The whining and crying in the thread, from him and his alliance mates is awesome. So much fail, I really didn't think it possible on this level. Ive only done a quick run through but cant see any posts from the victims alliance or corp? Who are you referring too? C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Mag's You must be new to the Eveonline forums..... welcome. There is this thing about assumption being the mother of all farkups... assuming all people whining here are alts of said alliance is bordering on being plain stupid. You need to point to where, I said all the whining was from them. What was that about being stupid? I cant see that much whining, most seem to approve of it. Its a bit like the mythical carebear whines that everyone talks of but tend to be in the absolute minority. Personally Im very much in favour of personal loss in game - without it EVE wouldnt be the game that it is. Im less enamoured of CCP profiteering without any noticeable effort on their part and I think in this specific case its a mechanic that is bordering upon the unethical. Had the guy lost 22billion in implants Id be the first to be slapping 0rphanage on the back for a job well done. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:28:00 - [9] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o It did not perish by turning GTC into PLEX. Strictly speaking it did perish. By converting the GTC into a plex it becomes an in game item and thus owned by CCP - albeit a rather unique one in that it can be converted back in 'game time'. A plex is an unusual item in that it exists in an 'limbo state' in game - its potential to become game time is what describes its relative worth in ISK but it has no value in an of itself in real currency. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:39:00 - [10] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Ressiv New poster, yeah, other then that, not really. I did read what you posted, and thereore asked if I could get a copy of that alt list you seem to have. If you dont have it, you dont really have a way of knowing who is who on here, do you ? I haven't got a list. Im making stuff up Fixed C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Mag's Changed post by failed to understand Cailias. Fixed C. Prove me wrong. Prove ME wrong! Plus my cat can beat up your cat. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:47:00 - [12] Originally by: Mag's Edited by: Mag''s on 09/08/2010 14:45:12 Originally by: Cailais stuff.. So we are both right and both wrong at the same time. Plus I don't own a cat, my dog doesn't like them. So my cat wins by default? I also have a dog - but he'd lose to the cat and is not much use in a fight. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:50:00 - [13] Originally by: elisabeth tyrrell http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4032&tid=7 looks like ISD finally decided to write something about it One less subscriber / player eh? Ah well CCP made a nice pile of cash short term so I think they'll conclude this as "mission successful". C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:02:00 - [14] Originally by: democrities Originally by: Ivon Strom Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 09/08/2010 16:33:01 The only issue I have is literally that CCP is getting Money for nothing literally. Here CCP have $1200! It's poor form. If PLEXs can be moved they need to be indestructible meaning they ALWAYS drop. The effect is the same to the dead pilot but it keeps CCP honest. This reeks of shady business practices.. I can see it around the board room now... "Lets introduce PLEXs to be shipped and give them the same drop rate as anything else.. The reward is for every PLEX that gets destroyed, we get money!" It will not be long before WOW and other MMO's introduce EXACTLY the same mechanic in which time in game can be destroyed preventing anyone from using that which they paid the company for in the first place. It's as simple as they are indestructible, they always drop, this doesn't effect the game in any way and everything else can remain the same, the only difference is, it doesn't make CCP look like the incarnation of shady business man. Now this...this I can support; Plexs being indestructible and you can't put them in Containers (Station or otherwise). This avoids the daunting task of debugging it so putting a single plex (330million ISK) into a container with say 1 billion isk worth of items would result in the entire container being made 'indestructible'. Are you people that dense? The whole reason as stated in the dev blog for making PLEXs movable was that they felt a PLEX shouldnt be treated as a special item, but just like any other item. So here you propose, making plex indestructable, thus treating it as a special item, going against the intended purpose of the change in the first place. Just a quick observation but if a PLEX is 'just like any other item' why is there a 17 page thread about the loss of 74 of them? Would there be a similar thread if it had been 22billion ISK in modules? For example theres a Nyx currently for sale at 18Bil. How many current GD threads are there about recent Nyx losses? C. the hydrostatic capsule blog

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