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Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2010.08.10 14:44:00 - [1] Analyze mode: On Linkage Secure 3rd party service \| my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

W3370Pi4 ExoGeni Laboratories	Posted - 2010.08.10 14:49:00 - [2] thanks :D ------------------------- ◙→Join the "Legit Trading" Channel - http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1016265 -------------------------
Sepi Gamma Draconis Industries Eternus Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 15:11:00 - [3] grrr it keeps freezing when i try and read it... Something about issues regarding cannot construct the picture :(..
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.08.10 15:13:00 - [4] Originally by: Sepi grrr it keeps freezing when i try and read it... Something about issues regarding cannot construct the picture :(.. Save link as, then open it. I got the same thing.. Amarr for Life
W3370Pi4 ExoGeni Laboratories	Posted - 2010.08.10 15:15:00 - [5] happens because it's still loading i think
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:19:00 - [6] Despite CSM pushing for including NPC PI stockpiling debacle in the QEN, what was included didn't really satisfy. It was probably _THE_ most interesting topic to include, even more so than insurance changes.
Ambo Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:20:00 - [7] Quote: Each month players receive about 20 trillion ISK in bounties for hunting rats Holy ****! I had no idea it was so much! --------------------------------------
Zea Aestria	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:21:00 - [8] My favorite: "In most economies, self-destruction to claim the insurance payout would be illegal. In New Eden it is not. It's simply pilots using their good common sense to make sound economic decisions."
Fearless M0F0 Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:22:00 - [9] In last pages there is a graphic showing Robotics sales since April 2009: Average 80m/month To cover that demand we need to produce 2.7m/day, this requires 4900 characters producing on 23h extraction cycles (1634 eve accounts) That's a lot of carpal tunnel just to cover Robotics demand. Now wondering about Guidance Systems... I use same daily amount of them as Robotics -- I take offense on people feeling offended by me
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:25:00 - [10] I like how in April the ISK increase was about 13 trillion, but in June it was 2.3 trillion. Guess that leaves us somewhere around 10.5 trillion ISK that was used to purchase NPC goods. I wonder how long it will take to go through that stockpile.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Despite CSM pushing for including NPC PI stockpiling debacle in the QEN, what was included didn't really satisfy. It was probably _THE_ most interesting topic to include, even more so than insurance changes. I wished that as well but it was touched on - Figure 4: The above graph shows the development of sinks and faucets during the course of May. The first 2 days of May saw very large sinks as players hoarded NPC trade goods related to PI; for example, the trade value of silicate glass alone on May 1 was around 2.6 trillion ISK. Looks like on May 1st there was -3,000 BILLION ISK sunk. So if Silicate Glass represented 2.6 Trillion of that I kinda find it hard to believe that only about 2 trillion was spent on other NPC goods. Either the chart is wrong or it's not including all the data. Amarr for Life
Gaius Clabbacus	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:39:00 - [12] 700k characters, 400 tera ISK. Count your alts and do the math.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:49:00 - [13] Edited by: Akita T on 10/08/2010 16:51:26 So... apparently IER business practices accounted for roughly in between 13.5% and 21.5% of total mineral consumption... Here's a few extracted tidbits... "production of Tech I ships fell by around 8% in April and remained at that level through May. In June, however, after the implementation of the change, Tech I production fell by 13.5%" "Prior to October 2009 over 1,400 ships were being self-destructed per day[...]In October[...]the number of self-destructed ships began to rise until it peaked in January and February, with over 2,500 ships being selfdestructed per day.[...]There was no increase in self-destruction following the release of the March 30 dev blog which announced the change. The average number of self-destructions at that point was actually a bit lower than at the beginning of the year, or around 2,150 ships per day. May 8 saw the beginning of a spike that raised the average to just under 2,600 ships per day, where players made use of the last days of the old insurance payouts. The spike lasted until the insurance changes were released on May 26. After implementation, the figure dropped to just over 1,600 ships per day" "These figures only show ships destroyed through the self-destruction mechanism. Not included are ships that are intentionally destroyed by the owner through other means, such as getting other players or CONCORD to do it." "From the beginning of June 2009 to the end of June 2010, 777,455 ships were self-destructed. A total of 159,124 characters self-destructed at least one ship in that period. Of those, 7,453 ships, or nearly 1% of the total, were destroyed by the same character, and that character didnæt even start until mid-January 2010." _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:53:00 - [14] Originally by: SencneS Looks like on May 1st there was -3,000 BILLION ISK sunk. So if Silicate Glass represented 2.6 Trillion of that I kinda find it hard to believe that only about 2 trillion was spent on other NPC goods. Either the chart is wrong or it's not including all the data. Silicate glass was the only item that was bought almost exclusively in one day, the rest were more spread out. Think someone in goonwaffe overestimated it's consumption rate.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.10 17:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Akita T "These figures only show ships destroyed through the self-destruction mechanism. Not included are ships that are intentionally destroyed by the owner through other means, such as getting other players or CONCORD to do it." So I suppose those of us that target painted a station to get sentry gun agro don't count Hell of a lot faster for sentries to blow you up than wait 2 mins to self destruct.
Steve Celeste Overdogs HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.10 17:28:00 - [16] Edited by: Steve Celeste on 10/08/2010 17:42:09 1000 Supercarriers And look at all the suckers selfdestructing their stockpiles AFTER the insurance nerf.... owned.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.08.10 17:34:00 - [17] Few comments about IER (which I am glad they spent time on): 1. It only made sense to make T3 BS's as they made most profit per ship, maybe not in % but in most ISK per ship. Use of anything else for a factory slot was waste. 2. My IER basket price (ROKH = 115.5M at the time) was best in Oct, Nov 2009 when it hit around 102M. Selling ships en masse to players at 113.5M made 10M per ship. 3. For IER pros the method of choice was unpack 10 (or other large number) BS's. Insure all of them, put a target painter on 1. Unlock, paint sentry gun, get popped. Dock get in next ship leave - re aggro pop. Rinse, repeat. 4. IER became unprofitable (for me at 112m ISK) in December 09. Dropped again in new year and was dead by Feb. As Akita states self destruction accounted for 13-21% of ship loss. When added to the sentry aggro mechanism I wonder what the total is? I bet in 4Q 09 the total has to be higher so I am guessing 40%? 40% of all BS's built were popped for insurance would be huge!
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.10 17:57:00 - [18] Edited by: Akita T on 10/08/2010 18:01:32 Originally by: cosmoray As Akita states self destruction accounted for 13-21% of ship loss. When added to the sentry aggro mechanism I wonder what the total is? No, that's the total already, the entire number of IER-ed ships accounts for the drop in BS production levels, regardless of the method the IER was accomplished with. That's why it was my first snippet. P.S. Although on second thought the total mineral consumption drop was actually lower... even if BSs do account for a fairly big chunk of total mineral use, it's certainly not the vast majority of mineral consumption. So, maybe 7% of the total mineral consumption. Still quite a noticeable percentage. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
RAW23	Posted - 2010.08.10 18:29:00 - [19] Originally by: cosmoray Few comments about IER (which I am glad they spent time on): 1. It only made sense to make T3 BS's as they made most profit per ship, maybe not in % but in most ISK per ship. Use of anything else for a factory slot was waste. Depends on how much capital you had available and how many slots. At the time I was doing it I couldn't afford to run all my slots with T3s.
Lucyna Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises	Posted - 2010.08.10 18:51:00 - [20] Edited by: Lucyna on 10/08/2010 18:51:15 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Despite CSM pushing for including NPC PI stockpiling debacle in the QEN, what was included didn't really satisfy. It was probably _THE_ most interesting topic to include, even more so than insurance changes. +1 Agree. There should have been discussion of amount of stockpiles, amount sold from stockpiles, and other discussion on the long-term impact if the system stays in place. And the self-destructing ship issue was a fun read. The second most interesting topic was the isk-sinks and isk-faucets. I think that a healthy level of money supply growth (that would lead to more inflation/less deflation) would be a tax on older players who have more stockpiled ISK. EVE needs more taxes on experienced pilots and I believe that this is at least one way to make it so. Increase bounty payoffs, or mission rewards, or other things, so that the older player needs to do more than sit on his arse PVPing with no need to actively acquire ISK. Discuss?
Veni Ra Amarr Brotherhood Of Cash	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:27:00 - [21] Originally by: Lucyna Edited by: Lucyna on 10/08/2010 18:51:15 The second most interesting topic was the isk-sinks and isk-faucets. I think that a healthy level of money supply growth (that would lead to more inflation/less deflation) would be a tax on older players who have more stockpiled ISK. EVE needs more taxes on experienced pilots and I believe that this is at least one way to make it so. Increase bounty payoffs, or mission rewards, or other things, so that the older player needs to do more than sit on his arse PVPing with no need to actively acquire ISK. Discuss? lol why??? Bro you mad when market gets manipulated and all you can do is ride with the wave??? But seriously, why should I be taxed for being a loyal CCP customer??? If the young ppl stick with the game they will get the benefits of being an old player too.
Lucyna Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:46:00 - [22] That was sort of the response I was expecting. But it's a known issue: older players have an advantage over younger players not only because of skill or actual time put in to the game but because of perseverance (ie they have more SP). In trade this advantage doesn't seem to be crippling to newbies, which is good. It only takes several months to max out trading skill. But in pew pew PVP, the man with 50 mil SP will win over a man with 10 mil SP holding skill constant. In PVE this is also the case: it takes less time to acquire wealth with more skills. All of this, in my eyes, is completely good for the game. It gives people something to go for. In terms of ISK advantages, however, one way to entice new players into the game is to lower the economic bridge between older players and newer players. One way of doing this is by increasing isk-faucets to cause inflation, which would a) make the older people who have 100B liquid isk in their wallets actively look for more ways to earn da cash to keep up, and b) let active newbies earn at least a small fraction more of what their 3 year older counterparts are doing Disclaimer: This toon has 1.9M sp.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.08.10 20:05:00 - [23] In April vs May the number may only have dropped by 7% but I wonder what the number would be vs last Nov/Dec. By April most major IER players had stopped because it wasn't profitable. After the devblog it was clear that nearly every T1 item would drop so it would be profitable to dump your stuff and rebuy/reproduce after patch.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.08.10 22:24:00 - [24] Originally by: Lucyna That was sort of the response I was expecting. But it's a known issue: older players have an advantage over younger players not only because of skill or actual time put in to the game but because of perseverance (ie they have more SP). In trade this advantage doesn't seem to be crippling to newbies, which is good. It only takes several months to max out trading skill. But in pew pew PVP, the man with 50 mil SP will win over a man with 10 mil SP holding skill constant. In PVE this is also the case: it takes less time to acquire wealth with more skills. All of this, in my eyes, is completely good for the game. It gives people something to go for. In terms of ISK advantages, however, one way to entice new players into the game is to lower the economic bridge between older players and newer players. One way of doing this is by increasing isk-faucets to cause inflation, which would a) make the older people who have 100B liquid isk in their wallets actively look for more ways to earn da cash to keep up, and b) let active newbies earn at least a small fraction more of what their 3 year older counterparts are doing Disclaimer: This toon has 1.9M sp. But it is already significantly easier for new players to make ISK than it used to be. One huge difference is salvage. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
RaWBLooD	Posted - 2010.08.11 00:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Lucyna EVE needs more taxes on experienced pilots and I believe that this is at least one way to make it so. Increase bounty payoffs, or mission rewards, or other things, so that the older player needs to do more than sit on his arse PVPing with no need to actively acquire ISK. Discuss? Typical mindset of someone unable to be successful, in eve and in real life. What is there to discuss? miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2010.08.11 00:38:00 - [26] Originally by: Akita T "production of Tech I ships fell by around 8% in April and remained at that level through May. In June, however, after the implementation of the change, Tech I production fell by 13.5%" I wonder, what are those manufacturers doing these days? Went back to ratting, PI, quit? It is clear that EveÆs manufacturing is highly underused. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Lucyna Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises	Posted - 2010.08.11 04:10:00 - [27] Alright alright... Fine. You don't like my discussion of inflation. It's okay with me. I'm pretty successful in my (like I said) small venture into the market and my small wallet. Honestly, I believe there is something more to be discussed, and I know I walk on a fine line of rewarding older players and evening it up for newer players. Why would it be so bad if older players had to do things actively (not mission exclusively, but engage in the market, or other things) in order to maintain their dominance over smaller players? Where it stands, if you have 0.1-1T isk you'll be set for longer than I can fathom, unless you buy lots of moms and titans and take them into solo combat. If you had to work for your money, you'd be comitted more to eve, as you would need to use your money and not just cancel subscription expecting that you will return whenever as the god you once were... But I guess I'm whining and not posting anything constructive now, aren't I?
Companion Trollin You are going too fast	Posted - 2010.08.11 04:57:00 - [28] Edited by: Companion Trollin on 11/08/2010 04:57:00 Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Akita T "production of Tech I ships fell by around 8% in April and remained at that level through May. In June, however, after the implementation of the change, Tech I production fell by 13.5%" I wonder, what are those manufacturers doing these days? Went back to ratting, PI, quit? It is clear that EveÆs manufacturing is highly underused. I have an ungodly number of PE V + AMP IV alts, I tend to let those accounts go idle and hoover up ghost datacores until there's a reason to manufacture in the short term. hint: broken P4's ♥ Originally by: CCP Shadow Off-topic posts dealing with sexual orientation have been removed. Please keep this discussion on-topic. Thanks. -- Shadow
Companion Trollin You are going too fast	Posted - 2010.08.11 05:02:00 - [29] Originally by: RaWBLooD Originally by: Lucyna EVE needs more taxes on experienced pilots and I believe that this is at least one way to make it so. Increase bounty payoffs, or mission rewards, or other things, so that the older player needs to do more than sit on his arse PVPing with no need to actively acquire ISK. Discuss? Typical mindset of someone unable to be successful, in eve and in real life. What is there to discuss? I hate to agree with you, but.... ♥ Originally by: CCP Shadow Off-topic posts dealing with sexual orientation have been removed. Please keep this discussion on-topic. Thanks. -- Shadow
Lucyna Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises	Posted - 2010.08.11 05:27:00 - [30] Originally by: Companion Trollin Originally by: RaWBLooD Originally by: Lucyna EVE needs more taxes on experienced pilots and I believe that this is at least one way to make it so. Increase bounty payoffs, or mission rewards, or other things, so that the older player needs to do more than sit on his arse PVPing with no need to actively acquire ISK. Discuss? Typical mindset of someone unable to be successful, in eve and in real life. What is there to discuss? I hate to agree with you, but.... GL IRL to both of you. I'm doing just dandy. Maybe one day I'll buy a character and be just as happy as you both. But I'm thinking like the Devs, you want to strike a fine balance between rewarding loyalty and welcoming newbies. I think everyone will agree the scales are tipped one way and not the other, whereas they should be balanced. That is all...

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