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ArcDragon
Caldari Ghost Data Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
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Posted - 2010.08.13 03:50:00 -
[31]
Edited by: ArcDragon on 13/08/2010 03:53:04 Tippia, was it two years ago? Well, when PLEXs first came out they were unprotected as they are now. There was a huge outcry against it, a review and then the protections were put in place. A month or two ago, CCP gets a new director and he hates treating any item differently than any other, so he gets the protection removed. It's in the dev blog I linked, which I don't think you read.
Fact is, no one was complaining about PLEXs when the protections were in place either!
These items do not have to be lootable, they work just fine with the protections that were in place.
I'm not wrong about this. It's bad policy even if it fits the cold heartedness that is Eve. Call me stupid, a bad lawyer and all the other mud you can think of, but I stand my ground.
Put the protections back in place as removing them makes you look like your trying to find ways to loot the player base out of real life money or their time. If it has a SAVE button...I'm not interested. |
Usagi Toshiro
Amarr PoliCratton Technologies Crimson Dragons
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Posted - 2010.08.13 04:05:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Usagi Toshiro on 13/08/2010 04:12:28 Scenario: I go into Wal-Mart and buy a $20 Wal-Mart gift card. As I am walking out of the store to my car, I get mugged and the gift card is stolen.
Question: Is Wal-Mart responsible for this loss? Should they still honor my purchase? They have my money but now I am unable to actually spend it as the gift card is gone.
Answer: No and no.
*Edit* (looks below)
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ArcDragon
Caldari Ghost Data Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
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Posted - 2010.08.13 04:10:00 -
[33]
Dude, read my posts, THEY PROGRAMMED IN THE RULES. IT'S NOT THE SAME AS WALMART!
IT'S A CHOICE TO HAVE THE MECHANIC IN! If it has a SAVE button...I'm not interested. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.08.13 04:18:00 -
[34]
Originally by: ArcDragon TFact is, no one was complaining about PLEXs when the protections were in place either!
Which means that there is no problem and no reputation hit since nothing has changed. They were destroyable then, just like they're destroyable now. If people didn't complain back then, they have no reason to complain now either.
Quote: I'm not wrong about this.
You mean apart from thinking that something has changed, and thinking that the protections you talk about didn't exist from the first day?
You see, the protections you talk about was only that you couldn't move them from a station, not that they couldn't be destroyed. Ever since they were introduced, players could choose to let CCP off the hook when it came to providing game time. Hell, paying CCP for nothing has been in the game pretty much since it went liveà
So, again: since there hasn't been any outcry over the last two years, and since nothing has particularly changed, no ù it doesn't seem like people think CCP are crooks. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Shepard Book
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.08.13 04:19:00 -
[35]
Originally by: ArcDragon Edited by: ArcDragon on 13/08/2010 03:53:04 Tippia, was it two years ago? Well, when PLEXs first came out they were unprotected as they are now. There was a huge outcry against it, a review and then the protections were put in place. A month or two ago, CCP gets a new director and he hates treating any item differently than any other, so he gets the protection removed. It's in the dev blog I linked, which I don't think you read.
Fact is, no one was complaining about PLEXs when the protections were in place either!
These items do not have to be lootable, they work just fine with the protections that were in place.
I'm not wrong about this. It's bad policy even if it fits the cold heartedness that is Eve. Call me stupid, a bad lawyer and all the other mud you can think of, but I stand my ground.
Put the protections back in place as removing them makes you look like your trying to find ways to loot the player base out of real life money or their time.
Your ground is in a station or in high sec as safe as you can be I imagine. The sand box will only be complete once you can be destoyed everywhere in this game. If you want safe zones go to EQ, Wow, star trek, or any other MMO out there IMO. Any time you undock you should be prepared to get attacked. If I had my way Incarna would not be safe either.
Thx
PS Fly dangerous and remove local from 0.0. Beware of the monster.
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ArcDragon
Caldari Ghost Data Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
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Posted - 2010.08.13 04:33:00 -
[36]
I've made my points, I'm done.
Buy yourself a PLEX and delete it, nice point.
Have fun. If it has a SAVE button...I'm not interested. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.08.13 04:47:00 -
[37]
Originally by: ArcDragon I've made my points, I'm done.
Buy yourself a PLEX and delete it, nice point.
Have fun.
It is a nice point since it kind of blows the entire basis of your stance: that suddenly CCP created a new mechanic that didn't exist before, which allowed PLEXes to be destroyed and which let them get money "for free"à
ànone of which is true. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Pesky LaRue
Minmatar The Magnificent Bastards
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Posted - 2010.08.13 04:54:00 -
[38]
Originally by: ArcDragon I'm not wrong about this.
The fact that you think that way means you probably are.
Originally by: ArcDragon It's bad policy even if it fits the cold heartedness that is Eve. Call me stupid, a bad lawyer and all the other mud you can think of, but I stand my ground
No, it isn't. You're just all in a tizzy and can't see straight. .
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Torakenat
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Posted - 2010.08.13 05:35:00 -
[39]
Originally by: ArcDragon I've made my points, I'm done.
Buy yourself a PLEX and delete it, nice point.
Have fun.
That's exactly the point your missing dragon....
Once you convert the GTC to plex...its free game. You have a right as a player to delete the plex as well as hording all the plex in a frigate to get popped.
My opinion is, it makes CCP look even more awesome that they are not compensating the capsular. He was a screwup with too much isk to blow and got pwnd.
Just remember....that each of those plex's fulfilled their obligatory purpose...someone bought them....and sold them. Screwup bought them and lost them in the shuffle.
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Elpyh
Amarr Phoenix Tribe Art of Defiance
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Posted - 2010.08.13 07:24:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Elpyh on 13/08/2010 07:24:55
Originally by: ArcDragon They went wrong when they wrote in the game mechanics that directly allow someone to loose something of direct monetary value. PERIOD, end of story. Nothing else in Eve, or any other MMo that I am aware of does that.
In theory ever since plexes were introduced, all Isk has had a monetary value. Plex's in game value is about 300mil (not sure what exactly these days but anyway) and since a plex costs about 15Ç it means that 300mil itself is worth 15Ç. So if you lose the plex in space, you lose 15Ç worth of money (whether its yours or someone elses). Now what about if you lose a ship that is worth 300mil isk? Nobody would cry about it even though its value would be the same as 1 plex. That ship would basicly cost 15Ç and only difference would be that it is a different kind of in-game object.
I do personally not really care about this change as I rarely purchase plexes and if I do purchase them, I would definitely not haul them anywhere. You still have the choice of converting the plex in Jita and sell it without the item ever being outside of station. Like ppl have said, nobody forces you to undock with plex in cargo. Or if you insist on doing so, then make sure you are doing it safely.
So I cant really comment whether this make CCP cool or uncool. But I dont mind it atleast.
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Mitz Pufos
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Posted - 2010.08.13 08:09:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 12/08/2010 22:57:09
All of this "moral conundrum" can be solved quite easily...
...have CCP set up a charity fund that gets filled with the RL money counter-value of what CCP's "take" was of destroyed PLEXes, and have the CSM decide (or have a general public vote) to which charity or to which aid the funds should be donated to (on a more or less regular basis).
this |
Cailais
Amarr THE ORDAINED
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Posted - 2010.08.13 08:36:00 -
[42]
Yes I agree it is a very morally dubious business practice. As can be seen from this thread and the original thread regarding the loss of the plex - a large number of players dont understand the implication here.
Many players see it as buying an 'in game item that got lost'. What they cant see or understand is that what is actually bought is a Game Time Code. CCP allows that to be turned into a 'in game item' - no real problem so far; but by making it vulnerable to destruction through their own game mechanics a % will never be turned back into a Game Time Code: so CCP get paid for nothing.
I say nothing because a module, ship or other pixelated item has no 'real world value': a PLEX has a relative value by merit of being translated into a GTC.
Its pretty simple but few players seem to be able to grasp that concept.
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.08.13 08:42:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Cailais Yes I agree it is a very morally dubious business practice. As can be seen from this thread and the original thread regarding the loss of the plex - a large number of players dont understand the implication here.
Many players see it as buying an 'in game item that got lost'. What they cant see or understand is that what is actually bought is a Game Time Code. CCP allows that to be turned into a 'in game item' - no real problem so far; but by making it vulnerable to destruction through their own game mechanics a % will never be turned back into a Game Time Code: so CCP get paid for nothing.
I say nothing because a module, ship or other pixelated item has no 'real world value': a PLEX has a relative value by merit of being translated into a GTC.
Its pretty simple but few players seem to be able to grasp that concept.
C.
If CCP offered, say, a ship worth 300MISK on the market for sale for $15, would that ship have "no real world value"? Would it be "very morally dubious business practice" for CCP "making it vulnerable to destruction" and would "CCP get paid for nothing"? ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2010.08.13 08:43:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 13/08/2010 08:44:16
Originally by: Mitz Pufos
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 12/08/2010 22:57:09
All of this "moral conundrum" can be solved quite easily...
...have CCP set up a charity fund that gets filled with the RL money counter-value of what CCP's "take" was of destroyed PLEXes, and have the CSM decide (or have a general public vote) to which charity or to which aid the funds should be donated to (on a more or less regular basis).
this
QFE. The current system is morally just fine. If there were moral issues with it, it should be altered to remove them. The current "moral conundrum" is just with the personal perception of few individuals and not a fault of the system. Such subjective personal views should not be placated to by CCP, nor should they be allowed to influence how CCP uses it's legitimately gained profits.
CCP is free to donate their monies for charity, but they shouldn't be coerced to do it in order to appease the subjective moral outrage of a few individuals.
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Serpents smile
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Posted - 2010.08.13 08:45:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Pesky LaRue Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 13/08/2010 01:22:09 ah, screw it, what's the point.
^This!
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Hooch Flux
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.13 09:02:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Hooch Flux on 13/08/2010 09:05:38
Originally by: ArcDragon but I stand my ground.
So did Lieutenant colonel Custer...
I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit...
Only way to be sure! |
Cyniac
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Posted - 2010.08.13 09:22:00 -
[47]
Originally by: ArcDragon
This thread is about wether or not this specific game mechanic makes CCP look bad for allowing this scenario to take place.
Actually this game mechanic makes CCP look extremely good. It shows that they are committed to a universe where the actions of players have a major impact on what can happen... at any time.
Andrew bought plex with cash -> He got a valuable in game item Betty bought the plex from Andrew for ISK -> Andrew is happy he got what he wanted. Betty has a nice plex to speculate with. Betty sold the plex to Carlos -> Betty is happy she made a profit station trading, Carlos has been buyinig up plexes.
So far - everyone is happy right? Notice in particular that the person who paid cash for the plex is a happy customer.
Here is the kicker:
Carlos undocks with the Plex he bought from Betty and a dozen other players - off he goes to his secret starbase. (Because he wants to - no one is forcing him) -> Dominique spots him and blows him to shreds because they are at war.
Carlos loses yes.
But we all win - because your actions make a difference.
So if anything this incident is a great promotion for the game. If you cannot handle actions and their consequences, EVE is probably not the place for you.
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Sarton Wells
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Posted - 2010.08.13 09:51:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Cailais What they cant see or understand is that what is actually bought is a Game Time Code.
Quote: Buy PLEX Get your 30 day Concord Pilot Licence Extension here
As you can see it clearly states you're buying a plex. Not GTC. So by delivering said plex to you they complete their contractual obligation.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2010.08.13 10:56:00 -
[49]
Edited by: GateScout on 13/08/2010 10:57:48
Originally by: ArcDragon In this case, CCP made it possible to get about $1200 to $1300 USD and not have to honor the contracts!
This is incorrect.
The ability to use a PLEX in exchange for game time occurs when a PLEX is activated and used for game time use. It clearly does not occur at the time of purchase. This is the same for GTCs.
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Cozmik R5
Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.08.13 11:06:00 -
[50]
There are NO GOOD REASONS to have to move Plexes, much less in a Kestrel. So the error is only on the pilot's part. ____________________
Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try. |
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.08.13 11:13:00 -
[51]
People just shouldn't be so stupid to transport their PLEXes.
I guess it's been enabled though for rich low security standings people who can't get into high sec to collect and activate their plexes?!
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Sandy fr
Caldari Chevaliers de la Croix Du Sud
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Posted - 2010.08.13 11:36:00 -
[52]
nah , it's just a new spatial distorsions ou comment se foutre de la gueule de ses clients en postant une news
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FlameGlow
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.13 12:15:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring People just shouldn't be so stupid to transport their PLEXes.
I guess it's been enabled though for rich low security standings people who can't get into high sec to collect and activate their plexes?!
Nope, with contracts or noob alts you can get your PLEX in Jita 4-4 and apply it without everl leaving your lowsec/nullsec or class 6 wormhole system
Originally by: CCP Manifest Imploding servers are not a part of our business model.
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OneTimeAt BannedSpank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.08.13 12:41:00 -
[54]
That poor Kestrel pilot would be just fine if CCP hadn't forced him to undock with such high value items.
~ One million alts cant be wrong.
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Pesky LaRue
Minmatar The Magnificent Bastards
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Posted - 2010.08.13 15:11:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Cailais What they cant see or understand is that what is actually bought is a Game Time Code. CCP allows that to be turned into a 'in game item' - no real problem so far; but by making it vulnerable to destruction through their own game mechanics a % will never be turned back into a Game Time Code: so CCP get paid for nothing.
again, this is a matter of perspective and nothing more - they sell the PLEX in good faith, and the SECOND you get that PLEX in exchange for their money, they have fulfilled their side of the deal.
There are enough analogies floating around but the gift card one has been used many times - if I go to a store and buy a giftcard, the stores only responsibilities are to sell me the card and then honour it when I try and redeem it. If I lose/destroy the card (or it gets stolen) then the store isn't responsible.
Like with everything in life, CCP are selling you the POSSIBLITY of adding time to your account via a PLEX - if you do something stupid or irresponsible, that's NOT their fault and they are not to blame. They sold you the PLEX in good faith, they don't have a responsibility to ensure it's used properly.
And to state the obvious, yet again - given they can be applied remotely, no one EVER has to move a PLEX unless they choose to. There is NO game mechanic whereby you need take ANY risk with the PLEX so if something goes wrong and you lose it, it's no one's fault but yours.
note: all the "yours" in this post are really "theirs", nothing is actually aimed at the post i'm responding to. .
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Richard Christy
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Posted - 2010.08.13 15:14:00 -
[56]
ibtl
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Alias Forgotten
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:26:00 -
[57]
Originally by: ArcDragon Edited by: ArcDragon on 12/08/2010 22:37:40 Edited by: ArcDragon on 12/08/2010 22:34:37 By now, a lot of pilots have heard of the Kestrel carrying 74 plexes being destroyed. I can confirm that this is not a hoax.
http://ad0pt.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1539031
A month ago this would not have been possible, but with a recent change in policy allowing these items to leave stations and thusly be fully lootable it has finally happened an a scale that should not be ignored.
Some will say, "He's an idiot for doing that."
Others will say, "Wow, sucks to be him!"
That is NOT what this thread is about.
I say that CCP put plexes in the game and the protection they gave them was correct. I say they are a binding contract, which roughly tranlated means, one plex for one month of game play. Game play represents CCP's obligation to allow a player access to the Eve servers, usually at a price of about $15 a month.
In this case, CCP made it possible to get about $1200 to $1300 USD and not have to honor the contracts!
To me, this policy makes CCP look bad, REAL bad. As in they put an item in the game knowing full well that it could be destroyed and did nothing about it even though it DIRECTLY represented free money, I mean, money.
SO, DOES THIS MAKE CCP LOOK LIKE A BUNCH OF CROOKS OR NO? WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?
In the example you cited (The kestrel that was killed by war targets in Jita with 74 PLEX in his cargohold): There is no way that pilot purchased $1200 in PLEX and then tried to move them. That would be utter stupidity. What actually happened is 37 or so people purchased PLEXs and then sold them in Jita. The individuals that purchased the PLEXs (for RL money in order to sell for isk) got exactly what they wanted (in game ISK!). The pilot of the kestrel bought them with the intention of moving them to another trade hub to sell them for a profit, this is the same as buying any other item in the game and moving them to a place where they could be sold for a higher value.
The system allows you to choose where your purchased PLEX gets spawned! CCP has not created a system where you have to purchase a PLEX at a specific place and then redeem them at another. You are also capable of redeeming a PLEX from anywhere in the universe!
The system they have introduced has made it possible for a pilot to CHOOSE to try to make money by purchasing PLEX in a saturated area and then move them to a less saturated area for profit. Yes, it is possible for the item to be destroyed in transit. It is important to point out that once you load the PLEX into your ship's cargo hold you have forfeited the protection CCP has granted the item.
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Bagrista
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:31:00 -
[58]
Your parents should have aborted you. This is my annoying sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Enosxike
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:44:00 -
[59]
lets sum this up, Primarily eve fits every and any clients bill, want to control trade markets? do it. want to carebear roids? do it. want to transport across the stars? do it. want to destroy hordes of enemies in missions? do it. want to conduct MASSIVE scale fleet combat? do it.want to grief other people and blow up their ****? do it.
and my my favourite, want to do something stupid you really hope to god nobody catches you out on? do it.
In this case Buying a plex for your game, redeem it after buying their you do character time update.
want to buy a load of plexes and move them someplace else to encourage another market? Okay, want to do it inconspicuously? Use a frigate.
want to do it SENSIBLY? use a goddamn cloaky frigate/industrial/gilled the nines with res and HP buffer Battleship.
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Boltorano
Fourth Circle Total Comfort
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:10:00 -
[60]
You pay CCP for the use of an ingame item and then you lose said ingame item due to a perfectly legitimate ingame activity, where's the problem?
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