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Isn't it about time local was changed to delayed mode already ?

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Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.19 01:45:00 - [1] Delayed local is a bad idea. If you don't like local go in a wh. I like to pvp solo. Delayed local will just put the last nail in solo pvp's coffin. I will be blobbed before I can even think to try to get away from the bait. What is the advantage of delayed local? Forcing everyone to skrew their fits in order to fit a probe launcher - let alone having to mess with that tedius mechanic is just bad. Thats probably one of the main reasons many people don't go in wormholes. You want spread that disadvantage everywhere? -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.19 14:36:00 - [2] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Ori Blake Maybe the reason why its been brought up but nothing has been done is because CCP realizes that they can't change it without making things worse. I've yet to see you give a good reason why it should be changed at all, or anyone posting in this thread. You mean other than, say, the one in bold in the OP ? "Local is an extremely powerful metagaming tool available to everybody FOR FREE, a tool that allows near-total PvP avoidance (via logoff) in a PvP-centric game, a tool that also enables other metagaming strategies like AKF cloaking and logon traps... all of which are universally hated, but still used because "that's what you do for best results"." The PvP avoidance is one of the worst things, especially when combined with macro-users that are NOT directly linked to RMT operations (so their detection chance is smaller). Logon traps are almost equally "evil", especially when all you have in there is a single mostly-AFK cloaky scout. Akita none of this makes sense. First, itÆs not clear that local is a ômetagameö. You jump into a system you are identified by others in that system. Why? Well it could be any number of things û how the gates work, ships have scanners that indicate that (sort of like your dscan revamp idea only without the needing the revamp etc. Second, AFK cloaking is made possible because local is not delayed? Log on traps are made possible because local is not delayed? Sorry I donÆt see how either of these makes any sense. Log on traps will be much more effective if you donÆt even know the gang is logging on until they are on top of you. With instant local you see local spike and at least have some time to get away. The time it takes for them to end their initial warp and warp to you. With delayed local you will know they logged on when they are on top of you. Third AFK cloaking isnÆt universally hated. It doesnÆt bother me in the least. When people whine about it on the forums it rarely gets much traction with players. It allows pvp avoidance. I suppose it does. But your idea of improving the scanner does this as well. Moreover knowing who is in local is a major tool to help me find pvp! When I am roaming I am looking for war targets if I donÆt see anyone in local I know to move to the next system. If I see some war targets then I can scan around to find them. Local delay means it might take much longer to find fights. The only thing delaying local seems to do is benefit people who like to 1) pvp against pve fits and 2) blob. Sorry but Blobbing does not need a boost. Nor does eve need to require more people to fit and f around with probe launchers. Its just tedious. You say this ôwill happenö but I didnÆt see the link. Right now eve is borderline worthless due to the amount of time it takes to find an enjoyable fight without getting blobbed by mouth breathers. I hope ccp recognizes delayed local will go a long way to killing the game for anyone who has a brain. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.19 14:46:00 - [3] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2010 13:09:00 Originally by: Minchurra If you really must remove it, why not just make local chat (as it is now) a buyable system upgrade like cyno jam? Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2010 12:47:30 2. Solo players and small groups will get more risk when ratting or plexing. You seem to be forgetting that the ewil piwates can't see if your in local either. Thats not a particularly great retort, 30 seconds on DOTLAN (or the ingame map for that matter) will instantly show you your target's ratting systems, the "ewil piwates" know where you are, so you're still at a disadvantage. So you pick one out of eight points? And then ignore the part about overhauling the Dscan? Scared Carebear? Actually the one he picked was the only actual advantage of delayed local you offered. The rest of your answers basically amount to ôwell lets change the dscan so that we effectively eliminate any effects delayed local will have so long as you spam the dscan button.ö Nice way to make eve more tedious. And the obvious response is: why not just keep local the way it is so we 1) donÆt need to upgrade the dscan to do those things and 2) we donÆt need to keep spamming dscan like obsessive compulsive ninnies. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.19 16:19:00 - [4] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Cearain You say this ôwill happenö but I didnÆt see the link. Right now eve is borderline worthless due to the amount of time it takes to find an enjoyable fight without getting blobbed by mouth breathers. I hope ccp recognizes delayed local will go a long way to killing the game for anyone who has a brain. The big dev Q&A thread... Originally by: by CCP Zulu, Posted - 2008.10.24 15:24:00 Local as an info tool: We want to put local in 0.0 as a delayed mode channel so only people who talk in the channel are shown. We are also looking at other alternatives but if we find nothing better this will be put in testing at least. Plus several other such posts by devs on other occasions, both before and after. Then there's the fact it was brought forth as CSM issue too. ...and so on and so forth. EVENTUALLY, it WILL happen. The only question is WHEN. I thought your original post included high and low sec not just 0.0. Also perhaps you didnÆt read the part where in 2008 he says of this ôLocal: I'm hoping we'll have something done to local in 0.0 in q1 next year.ö Plans have changed Akita. IÆm not sure what you mean by csm. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/August_2010_Prioritization_Crowdsourcing_%28CSM%29 This link is supposed to contain everything csm passed but ccp hasnÆt acted on yet. I may have missed the ôdelay local everywhereö proposal but I didnÆt see it. I didnÆt even see one passed that would delay null sec. What number is the proposal? But in the end, this thread offers not a single good reason to delay local. And plenty of good reasons not to change it. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:02:00 - [5] Originally by: Akita T For the Nth time, this is not about removing the ability to get that data... just about the fact getting that data should "COST" something, be it time, gear, or a bit of both. No it shouldn't. As has been explained in this thread, the game is better when that info is free. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:13:00 - [6] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 19/08/2010 16:42:08 Originally by: Cearain Quote: IÆm not sure what you mean by csm. See O.P. Thanks for the link. The name "wild 0.0" was deceiving. That only applies to null sec and then it can be overcome by a module. I don't fight in null sec because I'm nto intereted in blobs. People in null sec may want to boost "bait and blob" tactics. But so far I have not seen anything suggesting they will screw up high and low sec with this crap. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.20 17:12:00 - [7] Edited by: Cearain on 20/08/2010 17:12:57 Originally by: Razin Originally by: Cearain Originally by: Akita T For the Nth time, this is not about removing the ability to get that data... just about the fact getting that data should "COST" something, be it time, gear, or a bit of both. No it shouldn't. As has been explained in this thread, the game is better when that info is free. The only conclusive explanation to come out of this thread is that instant local is great for macros (and exploiters). Is this what you're referring to? No my concern is that every time you try to fight solo or in a small gang and then a blob jumps into local you will not see that until itÆs too late. You see my eve experience does not entirely consist of looking to gank people who are mining or in pve ships. Now if that is your main interest in eve then yeah delayed local is wonderful. But for those of us who play eve looking for good fights this change would suck. Just to be clear: Do you like to spend all your time baiting and blobbing people in eve? If yes delayed local would be wonderful! Do you like to spend your time fighting ships that have nothing but mining lasers? If yes then delayed local would be wonderful! Do you like to get good quality pvp fights? If yes then delayed local is a horrible idea. Do you like to see if you are wasting your time looking for war targets in a system quickly without having to fit a probe launcher or warp around like an idiot? If yes then delayed local is a horrible idea. Macros will have a harder time? IÆm not so sure about that. The only thing delayed local will do is make eve even less enjoyable unless you are in some big alliance that can post scouts at every gate. Its not that no one will be able to get these minerals in low or null sec. Its just that it will take more organized ventures to do that. But if you do have that organization then you will make more isk. Supply and demand. Now I have not heard anything to suggest that the macros and ôexploitersö are so much less organized than your typical player. Until we know that then we can not determine if this will be a boon or a bust to macros or exploiters. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.20 19:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Razin Edited by: Razin on 20/08/2010 17:58:58 Originally by: Cearain No my concern is that every time you try to fight solo or in a small gang and then a blob jumps into local you will not see that until itÆs too late. You are right, you will not get an instant notification that you should run wherever you are in the system. Your d-scanner will show the æblobÆ if it is within its range, which should give you enough time to get out. edit: Showing you the 'jump-in signatures' before the ships uncloak (sort of like seeing the local fill in) may very well be a function of the new d-scanner provided you are on the same grid as the gate, for example. Originally by: Cearain Do you like to see if you are wasting your time looking for war targets in a system quickly without having to fit a probe launcher or warp around like an idiot? If yes then delayed local is a horrible idea. You search may have to become a little more strategic, instead of jumping around the map like an idiot. YouÆd have to use data from places like dotlan and the star map to see trends in traffic and farming systems. Track political events to become aware of war zones. Etc. Conversely youÆll always have a blob hunting for you whenever you enter any alliance territory (that means 99% of 0.0) because youÆve been spotted by anyone who happened to be in the system you went through. At least we can to some extent agree on what will happen even if we donÆt agree on whether itÆs good or bad. I see having to hit my dscan all the time during a pvp engagement when I am already trying to monitor my overloaded mods cap and range as a big negative. If the new dscan would show what local will show anyway û why not just have local show it? Why force us to neurotically click a button? I donÆt always run away every time I see a ship on dscan because I donÆt know if it is a war target. Local tells me this. Again if the dscan is going to give the same information as local then why not just have local do it automatically. How does being forced to spam a button improve gameplay? If I am involved in a pvp fight it is currently hard enough to try to burn away after seeing local spike with other wartargets. Giving people even less time will make it almost impossible and surely kill off what is left of solo and small gang pvp. As far as having to use out of game tools to find war targets like dotlan û well that is moving in the wrong direction for me. I think it takes long enough to find a decent target. I am against any change that makes finding a good fight in eve more of a chore than it already is. I am very much in favor of mechanics that make good fights easier to find. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.21 02:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Razin Originally by: Cearain ... Just a couple of points, if I may. One, no one likes to endlessly push buttons. I believe that most who are arguing for delayed local assume that one of the features of the new d-scanner will be the 'auto mode'. This is explicitly stated several times in this thread. Two, this new d-scanner is assumed to will have taken over all of the intel gathering functionality of current local, EXCEPT for its infinite range and general effortlessness...... IÆm not sure everyone posting in this long thread are on board for this ill-defined, new, and as yet never even mentioned by anyone in ccp, scanner. But ok. This new d-scanner won't require so much as the push of a button yet it will still somehow require more effort than looking at local. Why are we splitting hairs? Just keep local as it is. DonÆt make changes just for change sake. The fact that it has less range is not good IMO. It means blobs get a boost. Plus I agree with NisanuÆs views on this. Being forced to have scouts at every gate will be a kick in the pants for all the more casual eve players. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.22 01:36:00 - [10] I don't understand the issue with it being free. Are you saying we have to "pay" the cost of pressing a button to get the information on dscan. Therefore we should have to ôpayö to get information that concord gives in local? Paying is fine with me. X isk per month to concord and it tells you what is in local. Does that solve that problem? I mean concord has to know who is in local right? It has to check to make sure everyone hasn't aggressed recently before they are allowed to use the gates right? So if your big issue is that concord shares the intel on who is in system with everyone then just set a fee and that is solved. I donÆt think this will make the anti local crowd happy though. Because the whole ôlocal is free no fairö is really beside the point and indeed ridiculous. They want to be able to blob more effectively and they want to be able to get easier kills on pve ships. If you want no local the game gives you that option now. Go to worm holes. DonÆt eliminate eve as an option for those who like to do solo or small gang pvp. At least leave low sec an option for people who donÆt live for of blobbing and ganking miners. Delayed local forced everywhere will go a long way to completely ruining the game. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906

Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.08.22 01:40:00 - [11] Originally by: HarrietMiers I would love W-space local everywhere. There would be a rough period of adjustment... Well 90% of eve players prefer the game elsewhere. Isn't there enough wormhole space for you to roam through that you have to insist we all play with the mechanics you like? I really don't understand the view that says we need to give people fewer options in eve. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.01 20:54:00 - [12] Edited by: Cearain on 01/09/2010 20:54:20 Edited by: Cearain on 01/09/2010 20:53:58 Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 26/08/2010 19:43:50 ... I wish people would acknowledge the fact that if local was gone, YOU would become invisible to the blobs that are trying to hunt you. This would increase the freedom of movement of solo players and people who prefer small gang pvp. With an improved Dscan, you would be very secure about your immediate environment. 1.) If you are ratting alone, no one knows you are there. 2.) If you are ratting in one of your home systems, (assuming there is not some kind of sov intel thing) there would be so many Dscans up you would have the entire system covered anyway. 3.) You people arguing on the side of keeping local are being phenomenally short sighted about it. Solo/Small gangs would be ôvery secureö due to dscan? LetÆs think this through. Your in the middle of pvp combat and you now also have to constantly hit your dscan button and look at those results. (this in itself is annoying beyond words) But even if you do by the time you see them on dscan they are already mid warp onto you and then you have to start to try to disengage from the enemy. Yeah good luck! Even with local constantly updating your lucky to get away. ThatÆs before they even start to warp. Blobs wonÆt see you? It doesnÆt matter if blobs see you in local. Its only when they can get a warp in on you that they are a problem. This wonÆt change that at all. The blob will send out a scout. You will not see anyone on dscan and engage the scout. The blob that was just sitting there in your system will just warp in and kill you as soon as you are pointed. Sorry this would be an insane boost to blobbing. When you do small gang or solo work you look at the local if you see a big blob come in your donÆt engage anyone. If you donÆt have local to tell you if a large blob comes in you are screwed and might as well leave eve if you donÆt like blobs. If you are ratting alone no one knows your there? Sorry just because you donÆt see them in local doesnÆt mean they donÆt know your there. If people are looking for ratters they will have a means to probe you out. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906

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