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Nervar
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Posted - 2004.12.27 03:02:00 -
[181]
Hello im Nervar and im a projetile user, help mee
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What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
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Nervar
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Posted - 2004.12.27 03:02:00 -
[182]
Hello im Nervar and im a projetile user, help mee
------------------------------------------------->
What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
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Uuve Savisaalo
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Posted - 2004.12.27 03:55:00 -
[183]
 Originally by: Kaylona Tso
So no triple dmod, low ammo, low tracking setups PLZ... thats just stupid.
Nobody has suggested a trippled damage mod (although I may not have been reading some of Liz's posts all too carefuly).
I think low ROF/low ammo setups for artillery are great - otherwise you just try to equalise damage mod between the weapons by essentially making all weapon groups the same. Okay, so.. suppose the damage output of this thing wouldn't, when put together with the reload waiting times and the low tracking, come close in DPS to something that fires with better consistency like a tach. Still, suppose it dishes out about twice the damage of any current heavy long-range weapon setup per volley, followed by lengthy periods of downtime. Would give artillery boats in a fleet a place of their own - and make artillery something other than the gimped version of every other weapons group.
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Uuve Savisaalo
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Posted - 2004.12.27 03:55:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Kaylona Tso
So no triple dmod, low ammo, low tracking setups PLZ... thats just stupid.
Nobody has suggested a trippled damage mod (although I may not have been reading some of Liz's posts all too carefuly).
I think low ROF/low ammo setups for artillery are great - otherwise you just try to equalise damage mod between the weapons by essentially making all weapon groups the same. Okay, so.. suppose the damage output of this thing wouldn't, when put together with the reload waiting times and the low tracking, come close in DPS to something that fires with better consistency like a tach. Still, suppose it dishes out about twice the damage of any current heavy long-range weapon setup per volley, followed by lengthy periods of downtime. Would give artillery boats in a fleet a place of their own - and make artillery something other than the gimped version of every other weapons group.
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Lord Anubis
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Posted - 2004.12.27 05:46:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo
Originally by: Kaylona Tso
So no triple dmod, low ammo, low tracking setups PLZ... thats just stupid.
Nobody has suggested a trippled damage mod (although I may not have been reading some of Liz's posts all too carefuly).
I think low ROF/low ammo setups for artillery are great - otherwise you just try to equalise damage mod between the weapons by essentially making all weapon groups the same. Okay, so.. suppose the damage output of this thing wouldn't, when put together with the reload waiting times and the low tracking, come close in DPS to something that fires with better consistency like a tach. Still, suppose it dishes out about twice the damage of any current heavy long-range weapon setup per volley, followed by lengthy periods of downtime. Would give artillery boats in a fleet a place of their own - and make artillery something other than the gimped version of every other weapons group.
The problem is very simple i have seen to ideas here one envoving covert ops ships (er just ant gonna happen making one wepon only possible with 2 players will kill that wepon).
The second is liz idea make the Rof and tracking suck but give loads of dam. This is not gonna work. For one you just discribed X Large proj and have you been hit by one of those trust me you will feel it, for 2 this wonldnt be to bad if its one on one but its not and im afraid mimatar dont have the tanks to take to much of a bonding between each shot. The only way to balance the 1400 (so did not want this to be just 1400) is increass there damage some what (devs done that) and increasss there ablity to hit.
You cant beat Death
But you can make the bastard work hard for it
wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia |
Lord Anubis
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Posted - 2004.12.27 05:46:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo
Originally by: Kaylona Tso
So no triple dmod, low ammo, low tracking setups PLZ... thats just stupid.
Nobody has suggested a trippled damage mod (although I may not have been reading some of Liz's posts all too carefuly).
I think low ROF/low ammo setups for artillery are great - otherwise you just try to equalise damage mod between the weapons by essentially making all weapon groups the same. Okay, so.. suppose the damage output of this thing wouldn't, when put together with the reload waiting times and the low tracking, come close in DPS to something that fires with better consistency like a tach. Still, suppose it dishes out about twice the damage of any current heavy long-range weapon setup per volley, followed by lengthy periods of downtime. Would give artillery boats in a fleet a place of their own - and make artillery something other than the gimped version of every other weapons group.
The problem is very simple i have seen to ideas here one envoving covert ops ships (er just ant gonna happen making one wepon only possible with 2 players will kill that wepon).
The second is liz idea make the Rof and tracking suck but give loads of dam. This is not gonna work. For one you just discribed X Large proj and have you been hit by one of those trust me you will feel it, for 2 this wonldnt be to bad if its one on one but its not and im afraid mimatar dont have the tanks to take to much of a bonding between each shot. The only way to balance the 1400 (so did not want this to be just 1400) is increass there damage some what (devs done that) and increasss there ablity to hit.
You cant beat Death
But you can make the bastard work hard for it
wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia |
Aornn
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Posted - 2004.12.27 08:57:00 -
[187]
Quote:
With Artillery I'd ask for more tracking, or a tracking bonus on ships meant to use it - even if its buffed up to an insane DPS it wont mean anything if you can't hit consistantly with it at more normal ranges
Ding ding ding.
This is the right (imo, of course..) solution, make the long range damage great (like blasterthron short range damage is great) but atleast somewhat _decent_ damage on medium ranges..
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http://fa.s-44.net/images/banners/blue/aornn.jpg[/IMG]
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Aornn
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Posted - 2004.12.27 08:57:00 -
[188]
Quote:
With Artillery I'd ask for more tracking, or a tracking bonus on ships meant to use it - even if its buffed up to an insane DPS it wont mean anything if you can't hit consistantly with it at more normal ranges
Ding ding ding.
This is the right (imo, of course..) solution, make the long range damage great (like blasterthron short range damage is great) but atleast somewhat _decent_ damage on medium ranges..
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http://fa.s-44.net/images/banners/blue/aornn.jpg[/IMG]
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Lord Anubis
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Posted - 2004.12.27 14:20:00 -
[189]
Any one got any feed back on the 800 as weve pretty much covered the 1400
You cant beat Death
But you can make the bastard work hard for it
wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia |
Lord Anubis
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Posted - 2004.12.27 14:20:00 -
[190]
Any one got any feed back on the 800 as weve pretty much covered the 1400
You cant beat Death
But you can make the bastard work hard for it
wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia |
Lord Anubis
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Posted - 2004.12.28 06:58:00 -
[191]
quess thats a no then
You cant beat Death
But you can make the bastard work hard for it
wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia |
Lord Anubis
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Posted - 2004.12.28 06:58:00 -
[192]
quess thats a no then
You cant beat Death
But you can make the bastard work hard for it
wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia |
Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2004.12.28 15:15:00 -
[193]
The problem is this. The best gun on a Tempest should be a Large projectile, but its not.
I am one of those 720 users. Its got all-world tracking on the tempest, compared to large guns. its tracking is exactly twice that of the 800s. add a tracking comp makes the 720s even better as well so they are still better than the 800s. (I posted about this a while ago, but am reconvinced that the 720s are the way to go) The DOT of the 720s is about 1/2 that of the 800s, but once you consider the falloff, that goes away. The 720 optimum is 20000 while the 800s are completely felled off by then. And this takes into account the ship bonuses. If you want to make it even worse, my DOT does not account for the fact that 720s will be using higher respective damaging ammos like EMP or PP in the range that the 800s will be using Lead.
Again and in simple terms. under the 800s optimum the DOT will be twice that of the 720, but the 720 has double tracking...
So the 720s are better than the 800s on a Tempest at least. The 1200s and 1400s are in a different class since they have range. But it should point out a fundamental flaw that the 720s are better than the 800s on a ship where the 800s are receiving 2 bonuses (my skills aint that high)
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2004.12.28 15:15:00 -
[194]
The problem is this. The best gun on a Tempest should be a Large projectile, but its not.
I am one of those 720 users. Its got all-world tracking on the tempest, compared to large guns. its tracking is exactly twice that of the 800s. add a tracking comp makes the 720s even better as well so they are still better than the 800s. (I posted about this a while ago, but am reconvinced that the 720s are the way to go) The DOT of the 720s is about 1/2 that of the 800s, but once you consider the falloff, that goes away. The 720 optimum is 20000 while the 800s are completely felled off by then. And this takes into account the ship bonuses. If you want to make it even worse, my DOT does not account for the fact that 720s will be using higher respective damaging ammos like EMP or PP in the range that the 800s will be using Lead.
Again and in simple terms. under the 800s optimum the DOT will be twice that of the 720, but the 720 has double tracking...
So the 720s are better than the 800s on a Tempest at least. The 1200s and 1400s are in a different class since they have range. But it should point out a fundamental flaw that the 720s are better than the 800s on a ship where the 800s are receiving 2 bonuses (my skills aint that high)
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Lord Anubis
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Posted - 2004.12.31 07:29:00 -
[195]
All thease people that was along side of me moaning for improvments now we get them and no sigh of feedback
You cant beat Death
But you can make the bastard work hard for it
wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia |
Lord Anubis
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 07:29:00 -
[196]
All thease people that was along side of me moaning for improvments now we get them and no sigh of feedback
You cant beat Death
But you can make the bastard work hard for it
wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia |
Iluyen
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Posted - 2004.12.31 08:50:00 -
[197]
I gave my feedback (on the 1400s), 15% of 0 is 0. The "fix" they suggested just shows they have no clue how their own game works. Oh and maybe a lot of these people are alrdy gone from the game.
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Iluyen
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Posted - 2004.12.31 08:50:00 -
[198]
I gave my feedback (on the 1400s), 15% of 0 is 0. The "fix" they suggested just shows they have no clue how their own game works. Oh and maybe a lot of these people are alrdy gone from the game.
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Hast
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Posted - 2004.12.31 09:45:00 -
[199]
hmmm, the problem here is not just projectiles itself... its other guns aswell that are overpowered...
So here's my go at "balancing"
first Energy weapons
Pulse guns: -50% optimal range and -10% falloff
Beam and Pulse: -10%dmg mod
The megapulse is uber now and has been for a few months...
and I havent just seen gankageddons with megapulse either, but gankageddons with 5 (I think) Tachyon beams...
Artillery :
+10% tracking
+20% dmg mod
I actually use 1400mm's now in fleetfights... fitting 6 1400mm's, 3 dmg mods and 4 tracking modules (2medslot and 2lowslot) gives me a good health dmg output 
Hybrids :
cap use : -50%
Not really sure if thats too much, but as it stands Lasers use LESS cap then hybrid guns... where's logic?
but if you dont want too see apocs with 1400mm's or something as silly you need to do something with shipbonuses...
its just a draft I pulled from my head and it concerns both shortrange and longrange guns...
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Hast
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Posted - 2004.12.31 09:45:00 -
[200]
hmmm, the problem here is not just projectiles itself... its other guns aswell that are overpowered...
So here's my go at "balancing"
first Energy weapons
Pulse guns: -50% optimal range and -10% falloff
Beam and Pulse: -10%dmg mod
The megapulse is uber now and has been for a few months...
and I havent just seen gankageddons with megapulse either, but gankageddons with 5 (I think) Tachyon beams...
Artillery :
+10% tracking
+20% dmg mod
I actually use 1400mm's now in fleetfights... fitting 6 1400mm's, 3 dmg mods and 4 tracking modules (2medslot and 2lowslot) gives me a good health dmg output
Hybrids :
cap use : -50%
Not really sure if thats too much, but as it stands Lasers use LESS cap then hybrid guns... where's logic?
but if you dont want too see apocs with 1400mm's or something as silly you need to do something with shipbonuses...
its just a draft I pulled from my head and it concerns both shortrange and longrange guns...
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Lucita Thoron
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Posted - 2005.01.02 22:12:00 -
[201]
I have been flying caldari and Amarr ships for months now. I learned the skill simply because i believed Min bs to be utter crap. I mean how much more usefull is every other Bs bonus than ours ?
However today, i bought a Tempest, First time in a long while, kitted it out with an armour tanking set up. 4 launchers and 4 1400mm. Added a tracking computer II to the mid slot, some cap rech II and went into space. I added every kind of ammo to my hold to test.. for range and for damage.
Now yesterday, I was averaging 400-900 per shot with tachs... A Gun that fires more often than my 1400mm.
so today i went out and took some level 4 missions. I figured best place to test it was with a nice bs target and some cruisers.
Now most of the time, The guns hold 10-15 ammo. Even with a gyro II . i could not kill a cruiser from 60 - 30 kms before it got to me and i had to use missiles to finish the job. I have not seen a wrecking hit as hit. but the average damage is like 200. I can do more damage than that with a 280mm on my wolf.. And do most often.
I dont think the capacity needs looked at. As i cant run out of ammo before killing anything anyhow. Against a dominix at opt range. 333 was my best hit. when i changed ammo. I managed a whopping 512. Big deal.
Aha... i will try 1200 ( bad idea ) they dont work at all
AHa - Autocannons... Sure they hit alot, but crap range and worst damage than harsh lingo make them pretty useless.
Now i am aware you dont want comparissons with other Race or weapons. but i cant think of worse weapons in any respect. ROF is the worst - Damage is bad - tracking is bad.
I would suggest.
Either they do alot of damage and dont fire much
do little damage, but fire very often.
I also would like to see Race brought into it. A minmatar in a min ship, Using min weapons should get a Third bonus - ie tracking - power - shield recharge -
Somthing to get us into our own ships once more.
Read the description of the APOC. and work out why everyone in the Game has one..
Its time to play the races better and fix our guns using our race stats..
Race stats - Min - 20% tracking for Projectile turrets.
Caldari - 10% to missile rof or EW stuff ect..
I am going to try every set up to fix these 1400mm and do some damage. but its getting hard to figure out new ways with out having a ship that can tank.
"In ancient times they had no statistics so they had to fall back on lies."
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Dark Pony
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Posted - 2005.01.03 00:58:00 -
[202]
'Back to reality' CCP;
Though EVE is ofcourse a fictional game it is (mostly) based on the laws of physics or presumptions that make things at least seem real. Regarding projectile weapons there are a couple of mistakes; An object that travels in space, will NOT loose it's speed no matter how far it travels untill it hits something.
Tracking however is the main problem with the overall concept 'gun'; you aim, fire and watch your uncontrollable projectile fly. Missiles are capable of adjusting their path on the run so they logically always hit, and laser beams could be 'steerable' too, you've got a long 'streak' of energy which you can give a swing to adjust it to the speed and direction of your target. So logically they hit easier then howitzers too. This doesn't count for autocannons though, (they spray scores of projectiles, bound to hit something right?).
The point I want to make regarding these two basic aspects of gunnery is that one thing that guns lack to make them more ballanced and more true to life, is to increase the max range of howitzers and especially autocannons. This would certainly complement the Minnies lack in defensive capabilities. This could be an alternative to improving tracking. (Except for autocannons off course)
To make projectile weapons obey the laws of physics we should asume that the max range of a gun fired in space is determined by a timer in the ammo that makes the projectile implode after a certain distance; this off course is constitutionally agreed to in treaties in empire space (we wouldn't want stray projectiles hitting stations or innocent bystanders now would we?). In lo-sec however, we should be able to use illegal, very hard to come by 'rigged' ammo with screwed up timers with a way better max range. Completey removing the timer would ,acording to the laws of physics, make the projectile fly forever (that might be a little too uber, lol).
I hope u guys improve projectiles and at the same time make the game more real; better max ranges for all guns and better tracking for autocannons. In this way minnies could be what they should be; outrun your enemy with better topspeeds and max ranges and kill him before HE gets in range and kills you. Untill now it's been; your enemy,.... kills you.(Or that's at least what I read everywhere.)
--- Dark Pony, A Happy Slave ---
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.01.03 01:16:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Dark Pony
'Back to reality' CCP;
Tracking however is the main problem with the overall concept 'gun'; you aim, fire and watch your uncontrollable projectile fly. Missiles are capable of adjusting their path on the run so they logically always hit, and laser beams could be 'steerable' too, you've got a long 'streak' of energy which you can give a swing to adjust it to the speed and direction of your target. So logically they hit easier then howitzers too. This doesn't count for autocannons though, (they spray scores of projectiles, bound to hit something right?).
EVE has game physics, not real physics (point out one thing in EVE that matches real physics). And considering your completely incorrect description of a Laser, I don't think you understand physics either.
--------------------------------------------------
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Kaylona Tso
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Posted - 2005.01.03 01:57:00 -
[204]
Edited by: Kaylona Tso on 03/01/2005 01:58:45
Somehow I would like to think the DEVs are looking over this forum and taking notes. I know, I know I am a dreamer.
First things first... Projectiles should be decent to use with or without ship bonuses. I used to use 1400mm on Apocs and megathron back in 2003 because I traded Dmod for cap use. Just as today people trade off cap use for damage by using megapulses on Tempests and typhoons. That should be first and foremost task to undertake. I think it can be solved with giving the guns better tracking and tracking only.
Minmatar ships need LESS dependence on missiles. Typhoon is bogusly roleplayed with 4/4 @ 8 loadout. 5/3 @ 8 is more realistic. Tempest should be 7/3 @ 8 not 6/4 @ 8. Tempest should get a modest increase in cpu (25) AND powergrid(2500). It should get a 5% increase for its damage mod ship bonus. Last for minmatar ships is targetting range. Typhoon should target at 72 base and tempest should target at 70 base. There also needs to be specialty range skills that are rank 12 that add 2% more targeting range per level and require long range targeting 5, electronics 5, science 5 and sharp shooting 5. Lasty of the first things that need looking at is warp in ranges... 90km and 125km ranges need to be added.
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Second things second... Armor tanking has had its day in the sun for far too long. I don't want this to be better than that except when race is a factor. Thus, shield tankning that is a minmatar attribute should get fixed. Cap relays need to be un nerfed, plain and simple.
Missiles need changing? Should we just utterly change the way they work because CCP got them right but couldn't get turrets, besides lasers, to work right? No. Leave Missiles alone. They work and work well. They are balanced enuff ( easily countered ) to make small niggles to them and leave it at that. Defenders CAN and DO shut down missile boats.
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.01.03 02:10:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Selim on 03/01/2005 02:10:58
My final suggestion. Instead of proposed changes:
25% boost to all artillery damage. Right now, many guns can do more damage while firing faster. I'm not talking about blasters, either.
10% tracking boost to all artilleries.
15% boost to optimal for all artillery.
Summary: Artillery will STILL do less damage over time over other long range turrets on a non minmatar ship. On a minmatar one it is good, though.
25% boost to tracking on all autocannons
100% (double) optimal on autocannons. Doesn't mean much since optimal is just a couple kilometers.
15% increased rate of fire for autocannons.
Again, autocannons will still be outclassed by blasters and especially mega pulse on a non minmatar ship. But they'll do the most damage on a minmatar ship.
This is the problem. Devs balance the turrets based on the ship bonuses. This is wrong... projectiles are only roughly equal or slightly less powerful than the other turrets when on a minmatar ship with 2 damage bonuses. While the other races get both a supplementary damage bonus and a tracking/optimal bonus.
Projectiles base stats should only be slightly weaker than the others, so the two damage bonuses on a Tempest, Claw, and others will truly mean something. Minmatar would finally be the real hit and run damage dealers they so clearly were meant to be.
Lastly, halve the cargo space of hybrid and projectile ammo.
And of course, shield tanking needs to be fixed on minmatar ships. We haven't got the midslots or CPU to shield tank without seriously screwing our offensive power.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.01.03 16:58:00 -
[206]
The logical changes;
1. Increase damage for all projectile. it is said that your own ships speed was not supposed to affect your tracking. As it stands our speed advantage can only be had if we are using missiles because our guns require us to drive in such a way that removes our speed bonus AND makes us easier to hit by our enemies. If we must drive to be easy to hit, AND we do less damage, how can we win? We must have either the fix that makes ones own ship speed not count against his tracking, or higher damage.
2. I agree witht hose that state projectiles are balanced, but their useage on Minmatar ships does not bring those ships up to par. Need better ship bonuses.
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Nafri
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Posted - 2005.01.03 17:29:00 -
[207]
just give projectiles 25% more damage and minmatar cruisers and BS a boost on tracking
would help for sure
Wanna fly with me?
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Kaylona Tso
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Posted - 2005.01.04 03:45:00 -
[208]
/me looks at Nafri's corp and alliance tags 
-----
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Sun Sliver
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Posted - 2005.01.04 06:38:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Kaylona Tso
Edited by: Kaylona Tso on 03/01/2005 01:58:45
Somehow I would like to think the DEVs are looking over this forum and taking notes. I know, I know I am a dreamer.
First things first... Projectiles should be decent to use with or without ship bonuses. I used to use 1400mm on Apocs and megathron back in 2003 because I traded Dmod for cap use. Just as today people trade off cap use for damage by using megapulses on Tempests and typhoons. That should be first and foremost task to undertake. I think it can be solved with giving the guns better tracking and tracking only.
Minmatar ships need LESS dependence on missiles. Typhoon is bogusly roleplayed with 4/4 @ 8 loadout. 5/3 @ 8 is more realistic. Tempest should be 7/3 @ 8 not 6/4 @ 8. Tempest should get a modest increase in cpu (25) AND powergrid(2500). It should get a 5% increase for its damage mod ship bonus. Last for minmatar ships is targetting range. Typhoon should target at 72 base and tempest should target at 70 base. There also needs to be specialty range skills that are rank 12 that add 2% more targeting range per level and require long range targeting 5, electronics 5, science 5 and sharp shooting 5. Lasty of the first things that need looking at is warp in ranges... 90km and 125km ranges need to be added.
-----
Second things second... Armor tanking has had its day in the sun for far too long. I don't want this to be better than that except when race is a factor. Thus, shield tankning that is a minmatar attribute should get fixed. Cap relays need to be un nerfed, plain and simple.
Missiles need changing? Should we just utterly change the way they work because CCP got them right but couldn't get turrets, besides lasers, to work right? No. Leave Missiles alone. They work and work well. They are balanced enuff ( easily countered ) to make small niggles to them and leave it at that. Defenders CAN and DO shut down missile boats.
signed
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Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2005.01.04 06:54:00 -
[210]
You can't simply boost the base damage of projectiles, else we have all apocs (they don't get a laser dmg bonus) using projectiles.
Projectiles on minnie ships should outdmg other guns (except blasters), but projectiles on a non minnie ship should have way lower dot.
So the easiest way to fix proj damage is by giving the ships a higher dmg bonus, this doesn't have to be 10% instead of 5% per level, as that could be to much. But one day ccp might figure there's some other numbers between 5 and 10... might make balancing stuff easier |
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