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Arleonenis	Posted - 2004.12.26 00:39:00 - [121] minmatar and 1400mm long range tactic... /emote is looking at tempest locking range... uhuh yep its REALLY long range (sarcasm)
Arleonenis	Posted - 2004.12.26 00:39:00 - [122] minmatar and 1400mm long range tactic... /emote is looking at tempest locking range... uhuh yep its REALLY long range (sarcasm)
Mishi Bangbang	Posted - 2004.12.26 01:13:00 - [123] Edited by: Mishi Bangbang on 26/12/2004 01:16:00 Originally by: Siddy Edited by: Siddy on 25/12/2004 23:47:56 done a lil testing on apoch Zaps apoch were able to tank my tempest all day long .. with only base apoch armor resistance (no explosive hards) against my EMP ammo and abaut lvl 5 skills across the board... Why not Fusion and Titanium ?... Was he using 3 LReps?... *edit:Or did i miss the ? Liz, that's not a bad idea. But most battles seem to happen between 30km-60km (if not using BM's/Camping/Fleet...) which already stress turrets tracking, with high chances of missing moving targets - DoT would become very low if RoF and tracking were reduced. Filling slots with tracking computers and dmg mods is not a solution from a modest defensive perspective.
Mishi Bangbang	Posted - 2004.12.26 01:13:00 - [124] Edited by: Mishi Bangbang on 26/12/2004 01:16:00 Originally by: Siddy Edited by: Siddy on 25/12/2004 23:47:56 done a lil testing on apoch Zaps apoch were able to tank my tempest all day long .. with only base apoch armor resistance (no explosive hards) against my EMP ammo and abaut lvl 5 skills across the board... Why not Fusion and Titanium ?... Was he using 3 LReps?... *edit:Or did i miss the ? Liz, that's not a bad idea. But most battles seem to happen between 30km-60km (if not using BM's/Camping/Fleet...) which already stress turrets tracking, with high chances of missing moving targets - DoT would become very low if RoF and tracking were reduced. Filling slots with tracking computers and dmg mods is not a solution from a modest defensive perspective.
Liz Bathory	Posted - 2004.12.26 02:55:00 - [125] Edited by: Liz Bathory on 26/12/2004 02:58:09 Edited by: Liz Bathory on 26/12/2004 02:56:17 the idea is not to hit often, but to absolutely devastate the target IF you hit it should take about 3 minutes of firing for a single 1400mm to gt one hit in, at optimal but that one hit, should do more damage thant 3 minutes of firing from a mega neutron blaster at optimal with antimatter the idea is not to do Damage Over Time, like most weapon systems but to either kill, or miss, with miss being far more likely for any one shot
Liz Bathory	Posted - 2004.12.26 02:55:00 - [126] Edited by: Liz Bathory on 26/12/2004 02:58:09 Edited by: Liz Bathory on 26/12/2004 02:56:17 the idea is not to hit often, but to absolutely devastate the target IF you hit it should take about 3 minutes of firing for a single 1400mm to gt one hit in, at optimal but that one hit, should do more damage thant 3 minutes of firing from a mega neutron blaster at optimal with antimatter the idea is not to do Damage Over Time, like most weapon systems but to either kill, or miss, with miss being far more likely for any one shot
Uuve Savisaalo	Posted - 2004.12.26 04:14:00 - [127] Originally by: Liz Bathory the idea is not to do Damage Over Time, like most weapon systems but to either kill, or miss, with miss being far more likely for any one shot I agree with the principe here, Liz - instead of trying to equalise all weapons in damage over time by improving ammo capacity of projectiles or increasing their rate of fire, why not look at something like low ammo cap of projectiles as a balancing factor? you increase the weight of projectiles to allow fewer shots with the larger artillery (3-15 across the board, as I already said), improve tracking somewhat to avoid 'fire for three minutes with a single hit' problem, increase optimal a little bit, double the fall-off, leave rate of fire as is, DRAMATICALLY increase damage. You end up with a class of weapons where reload has to factor into the combat. Really powerful finishers that can inflict humongous amounts of damage over really short period of time followed by a reload downtime. I think this adds more to combat for projectiles than just being a gimped clone of other weapons systems. I don't know - I guess I like variety?
Uuve Savisaalo	Posted - 2004.12.26 04:14:00 - [128] Originally by: Liz Bathory the idea is not to do Damage Over Time, like most weapon systems but to either kill, or miss, with miss being far more likely for any one shot I agree with the principe here, Liz - instead of trying to equalise all weapons in damage over time by improving ammo capacity of projectiles or increasing their rate of fire, why not look at something like low ammo cap of projectiles as a balancing factor? you increase the weight of projectiles to allow fewer shots with the larger artillery (3-15 across the board, as I already said), improve tracking somewhat to avoid 'fire for three minutes with a single hit' problem, increase optimal a little bit, double the fall-off, leave rate of fire as is, DRAMATICALLY increase damage. You end up with a class of weapons where reload has to factor into the combat. Really powerful finishers that can inflict humongous amounts of damage over really short period of time followed by a reload downtime. I think this adds more to combat for projectiles than just being a gimped clone of other weapons systems. I don't know - I guess I like variety?
Kashre	Posted - 2004.12.26 06:01:00 - [129] Originally by: Aornn If Devs are unwilling to give proper track bonuses to artilleries and howizers in fear of having Apocs equipped with 1400's... just add the MUCH needed bonuses into ships themselves. I'm also puzzled by people saying 'learn other guns for NPc hunt', uh... i thought the goal here was to fix projectiles once and for all, so lets do it properly and not half assed way (learn new guns gimme a break, heh. With specialization skills.. this is even more important to make proj's viable in NPc and PvP. 1400s are never going to be ideal for hunting NPCs, which was why I said that lasers work better. Even if you make 1400s the uber-leet weapons such that every geddeon apoc and scorp uses them for PvP, they'll still be slow firing long range guns that are hard to fit in large numbers even on a tempest. Why fly 60-70km to pick up a BS loot can when 4 mega pulses and 4 cruise/siege launchers are perfectly capabale of devestating any NPCs spawn from 15km? Although, now that I think about it, with 15% more damage 1200s will be doing roughly the same DOT that 1400s do now, so they might make projectiles viable for NPC hunting again since they should be able to hit closer. As for Liz's idea, its interesting, but Id hate a setup that REQUIRED me to be at 100km to be effective. Its hard enough to get into a battle at 60km from the primary target sometimes, unless they add a "warp to object at 100-120km" button that setup would be useless for anything but camping a gate, and it would make greifing people in low sec empire way to easy, not to mention that any setup would have to have 3 sensor boosters on it to even lock something at your efective range which messes up my favorite thing about the tempest, its flexibility. +++ It's called "low security space" for a reason.
Kashre	Posted - 2004.12.26 06:01:00 - [130] Originally by: Aornn If Devs are unwilling to give proper track bonuses to artilleries and howizers in fear of having Apocs equipped with 1400's... just add the MUCH needed bonuses into ships themselves. I'm also puzzled by people saying 'learn other guns for NPc hunt', uh... i thought the goal here was to fix projectiles once and for all, so lets do it properly and not half assed way (learn new guns gimme a break, heh. With specialization skills.. this is even more important to make proj's viable in NPc and PvP. 1400s are never going to be ideal for hunting NPCs, which was why I said that lasers work better. Even if you make 1400s the uber-leet weapons such that every geddeon apoc and scorp uses them for PvP, they'll still be slow firing long range guns that are hard to fit in large numbers even on a tempest. Why fly 60-70km to pick up a BS loot can when 4 mega pulses and 4 cruise/siege launchers are perfectly capabale of devestating any NPCs spawn from 15km? Although, now that I think about it, with 15% more damage 1200s will be doing roughly the same DOT that 1400s do now, so they might make projectiles viable for NPC hunting again since they should be able to hit closer. As for Liz's idea, its interesting, but Id hate a setup that REQUIRED me to be at 100km to be effective. Its hard enough to get into a battle at 60km from the primary target sometimes, unless they add a "warp to object at 100-120km" button that setup would be useless for anything but camping a gate, and it would make greifing people in low sec empire way to easy, not to mention that any setup would have to have 3 sensor boosters on it to even lock something at your efective range which messes up my favorite thing about the tempest, its flexibility. +++ It's called "low security space" for a reason.
Uuve Savisaalo	Posted - 2004.12.26 06:28:00 - [131] Originally by: Kashre Originally by: Aornn unless they add a "warp to object at 100-120km" button that setup would be useless for anything but camping a gate, and it would make greifing people in low sec empire way to easy, not to mention that any setup would have to have 3 sensor boosters on it to even lock something at your efective range which messes up my favorite thing about the tempest, its flexibility. Actually, the solution to this comes in the form of 'hypereuclydian navigation' skill for covert ops ships. When your fleet's resident cloaker is able to drop you in at 120 on shorter notice, it works kind of well too. Thats actually my role and I've been able to both provide ideal sniper ranges for my associates as well as warp them to the snipers immediately at 10km :)
Uuve Savisaalo	Posted - 2004.12.26 06:28:00 - [132] Originally by: Kashre Originally by: Aornn unless they add a "warp to object at 100-120km" button that setup would be useless for anything but camping a gate, and it would make greifing people in low sec empire way to easy, not to mention that any setup would have to have 3 sensor boosters on it to even lock something at your efective range which messes up my favorite thing about the tempest, its flexibility. Actually, the solution to this comes in the form of 'hypereuclydian navigation' skill for covert ops ships. When your fleet's resident cloaker is able to drop you in at 120 on shorter notice, it works kind of well too. Thats actually my role and I've been able to both provide ideal sniper ranges for my associates as well as warp them to the snipers immediately at 10km :)
absolute	Posted - 2004.12.26 07:28:00 - [133] I think that the devs would like to improve 1400's with more tacking and also damage, but they don;t due to one volly frigate or cruiser gankdom. To solve this just let 1400s fire at the end of each cycle like amour reps do. This way 1400's with 50% tracking will not be the ultimate gate gank gun for those 6 second dashes to reach the gate microwarped. atm i don;t see a draw back to the above change, if so plz tell.
absolute	Posted - 2004.12.26 07:28:00 - [134] I think that the devs would like to improve 1400's with more tacking and also damage, but they don;t due to one volly frigate or cruiser gankdom. To solve this just let 1400s fire at the end of each cycle like amour reps do. This way 1400's with 50% tracking will not be the ultimate gate gank gun for those 6 second dashes to reach the gate microwarped. atm i don;t see a draw back to the above change, if so plz tell.
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.12.26 08:32:00 - [135] Edited by: Lord Anubis on 26/12/2004 08:33:00 Originally by: Liz Bathory Edited by: Liz Bathory on 26/12/2004 02:58:09 Edited by: Liz Bathory on 26/12/2004 02:56:17 The idea is not to hit often, but to absolutely devastate the target IF you hit it should take about 3 minutes of firing for a single 1400mm to get one hit in, at optimal But that one hit, should do more damage than 3 minutes of firing from a mega neutron blaster at optimal with antimatter The idea is not to do Damage over Time, like most weapon systems But to either kill, or miss, with miss being far more likely for any one shot Im sorry to say this just isnÆt a good idea. Extreme range will bring in all sorts of problem and make the gun very useless. You will have grid problems, the gun would be useless for npc and for fleet battles as the standard range is 30/60k. As I believe it the 1400 current range is ok. With plasma i can hit up to 90K range. Granted the damage is in the 150 per shot range but i can hit. Ranges should be as follows. Long Range 50-100k Medium 20k-50k Short 1K-20k. Currently i canÆt hit a BS above 50% at a range of 60K unless itÆs standing still moving towards me or away from me. ItÆs that simple. Yes the 15% is a good start and im not knocking it but the gun needs to increase its hit ratio if not through tracking by some other means then. DonÆt get me wrong i donÆt expect to hit a frig at 40K range or a cruiser at 30K but a bs come on give me a gun i can work with. The only reason i can use 1400`s now for npc hunting is the fact i take advantage in knowing the AI of the rats i kill. I.e. head towards them so they run away knocking Trans velocity down to 0 or running away from them while firing. As for knocking the 1400 ammo capacity down lol you are kidding right the gun holds between 10 and 20 rounds as it is and you want it lower. 3 shots then reload and you want the gun to have 30s rof fire even with skills that will go down to 15s thatÆs working it out thatÆs 33 shots per 10 minutesàà good against a single target if you got huge damage maybe but what about more than one targets. That will = one thing Tempest kings of one on one. Lol since when has there been a battle one on one. And itÆs not like me have a tank that can take a bounding between shots now is it. This is my idea of what a 1400 gun should be. Again im going on about 1400 has itÆs the only gun i use and know. Dam Mod 5.75 (15% increase) ROF 25 Seconds (an increase from 23.625) Normalized damage modifier 0.21 (Same) Optimal Range 46K (15% increase) Accuracy falloff 50K (they are long range guns after all) Tracking speed / Accuracy 0.01146025 (as i mentioned earlier). Ammo cap let the hold about 15Ammo for EMP and 25Ammo for depleted. Ok looking at it now it may come across as over powered, and with out testing i cant tell you. Instead of the increased damage i would rather see our ammo be on par with the other races as it currently is the less damaging ammo. Also to stop people in there tracks to this as in well you do all damage types yes we do but not without a range pen which does not help us out in combat. You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.12.26 08:32:00 - [136] Edited by: Lord Anubis on 26/12/2004 08:33:00 Originally by: Liz Bathory Edited by: Liz Bathory on 26/12/2004 02:58:09 Edited by: Liz Bathory on 26/12/2004 02:56:17 The idea is not to hit often, but to absolutely devastate the target IF you hit it should take about 3 minutes of firing for a single 1400mm to get one hit in, at optimal But that one hit, should do more damage than 3 minutes of firing from a mega neutron blaster at optimal with antimatter The idea is not to do Damage over Time, like most weapon systems But to either kill, or miss, with miss being far more likely for any one shot Im sorry to say this just isnÆt a good idea. Extreme range will bring in all sorts of problem and make the gun very useless. You will have grid problems, the gun would be useless for npc and for fleet battles as the standard range is 30/60k. As I believe it the 1400 current range is ok. With plasma i can hit up to 90K range. Granted the damage is in the 150 per shot range but i can hit. Ranges should be as follows. Long Range 50-100k Medium 20k-50k Short 1K-20k. Currently i canÆt hit a BS above 50% at a range of 60K unless itÆs standing still moving towards me or away from me. ItÆs that simple. Yes the 15% is a good start and im not knocking it but the gun needs to increase its hit ratio if not through tracking by some other means then. DonÆt get me wrong i donÆt expect to hit a frig at 40K range or a cruiser at 30K but a bs come on give me a gun i can work with. The only reason i can use 1400`s now for npc hunting is the fact i take advantage in knowing the AI of the rats i kill. I.e. head towards them so they run away knocking Trans velocity down to 0 or running away from them while firing. As for knocking the 1400 ammo capacity down lol you are kidding right the gun holds between 10 and 20 rounds as it is and you want it lower. 3 shots then reload and you want the gun to have 30s rof fire even with skills that will go down to 15s thatÆs working it out thatÆs 33 shots per 10 minutesàà good against a single target if you got huge damage maybe but what about more than one targets. That will = one thing Tempest kings of one on one. Lol since when has there been a battle one on one. And itÆs not like me have a tank that can take a bounding between shots now is it. This is my idea of what a 1400 gun should be. Again im going on about 1400 has itÆs the only gun i use and know. Dam Mod 5.75 (15% increase) ROF 25 Seconds (an increase from 23.625) Normalized damage modifier 0.21 (Same) Optimal Range 46K (15% increase) Accuracy falloff 50K (they are long range guns after all) Tracking speed / Accuracy 0.01146025 (as i mentioned earlier). Ammo cap let the hold about 15Ammo for EMP and 25Ammo for depleted. Ok looking at it now it may come across as over powered, and with out testing i cant tell you. Instead of the increased damage i would rather see our ammo be on par with the other races as it currently is the less damaging ammo. Also to stop people in there tracks to this as in well you do all damage types yes we do but not without a range pen which does not help us out in combat. You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Mishi Bangbang	Posted - 2004.12.26 09:35:00 - [137] Originally by: absolute I think that the devs would like to improve 1400's with more tacking and also damage, but they don;t due to one volly frigate or cruiser gankdom. To solve this just let 1400s fire at the end of each cycle like amour reps do. This way 1400's with 50% tracking will not be the ultimate gate gank gun for those 6 second dashes to reach the gate microwarped. atm i don;t see a draw back to the above change, if so plz tell. Waiting for ~14sec after you hit fire would leave you in a disadvantageous defensive/1st strike position... lag already does that. Arty's are not the only ones used for sniping.
Mishi Bangbang	Posted - 2004.12.26 09:35:00 - [138] Originally by: absolute I think that the devs would like to improve 1400's with more tacking and also damage, but they don;t due to one volly frigate or cruiser gankdom. To solve this just let 1400s fire at the end of each cycle like amour reps do. This way 1400's with 50% tracking will not be the ultimate gate gank gun for those 6 second dashes to reach the gate microwarped. atm i don;t see a draw back to the above change, if so plz tell. Waiting for ~14sec after you hit fire would leave you in a disadvantageous defensive/1st strike position... lag already does that. Arty's are not the only ones used for sniping.
Mishi Bangbang	Posted - 2004.12.26 09:42:00 - [139] Originally by: Lord Anubis And itÆs not like me have a tank that can take a bounding between shots now is it. Exactly. While waiting for that magic shot to come through the opponent(s) will be already into your hull... but maybe this situation would change with the upcoming HP increases.
Mishi Bangbang	Posted - 2004.12.26 09:42:00 - [140] Originally by: Lord Anubis And itÆs not like me have a tank that can take a bounding between shots now is it. Exactly. While waiting for that magic shot to come through the opponent(s) will be already into your hull... but maybe this situation would change with the upcoming HP increases.
Kashre	Posted - 2004.12.26 10:18:00 - [141] Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo Actually, the solution to this comes in the form of 'hypereuclydian navigation' skill for covert ops ships. When your fleet's resident cloaker is able to drop you in at 120 on shorter notice, it works kind of well too. Thats actually my role and I've been able to both provide ideal sniper ranges for my associates as well as warp them to the snipers immediately at 10km :) Well that works, and its the most ideal solution really, but it has its limits. Youre limited by available covert ops pilots, by wether or not your the campers or the camp-ees, etc. I still wouldnt want to be FORCED to only be effective at over 100km. I can be effective to about 120 with my normal fleet tempest setup, but I can be effective down at 40 as well. Id rather it stay that way. +++ It's called "low security space" for a reason.
Kashre	Posted - 2004.12.26 10:18:00 - [142] Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo Actually, the solution to this comes in the form of 'hypereuclydian navigation' skill for covert ops ships. When your fleet's resident cloaker is able to drop you in at 120 on shorter notice, it works kind of well too. Thats actually my role and I've been able to both provide ideal sniper ranges for my associates as well as warp them to the snipers immediately at 10km :) Well that works, and its the most ideal solution really, but it has its limits. Youre limited by available covert ops pilots, by wether or not your the campers or the camp-ees, etc. I still wouldnt want to be FORCED to only be effective at over 100km. I can be effective to about 120 with my normal fleet tempest setup, but I can be effective down at 40 as well. Id rather it stay that way. +++ It's called "low security space" for a reason.
Siddy	Posted - 2004.12.26 15:43:00 - [143] Edited by: Siddy on 26/12/2004 15:45:04 Originally by: Mishi Bangbang Originally by: absolute I think that the devs would like to improve 1400's with more tacking and also damage, but they don;t due to one volly frigate or cruiser gankdom. To solve this just let 1400s fire at the end of each cycle like amour reps do. This way 1400's with 50% tracking will not be the ultimate gate gank gun for those 6 second dashes to reach the gate microwarped. atm i don;t see a draw back to the above change, if so plz tell. Waiting for ~14sec after you hit fire would leave you in a disadvantageous defensive/1st strike position... lag already does that. Arty's are not the only ones used for sniping. actualy 1400mms arent used for snipig due the lack of sniping platform, typhoon can fit only 4 guns while armageddon can fit way beter offensive and with overpovered radio's, pwn ezy from 155km -------------------------------------------
Siddy	Posted - 2004.12.26 15:43:00 - [144] Edited by: Siddy on 26/12/2004 15:45:04 Originally by: Mishi Bangbang Originally by: absolute I think that the devs would like to improve 1400's with more tacking and also damage, but they don;t due to one volly frigate or cruiser gankdom. To solve this just let 1400s fire at the end of each cycle like amour reps do. This way 1400's with 50% tracking will not be the ultimate gate gank gun for those 6 second dashes to reach the gate microwarped. atm i don;t see a draw back to the above change, if so plz tell. Waiting for ~14sec after you hit fire would leave you in a disadvantageous defensive/1st strike position... lag already does that. Arty's are not the only ones used for sniping. actualy 1400mms arent used for snipig due the lack of sniping platform, typhoon can fit only 4 guns while armageddon can fit way beter offensive and with overpovered radio's, pwn ezy from 155km -------------------------------------------
Shidhe	Posted - 2004.12.26 16:33:00 - [145] I would rather have the tracking to hit reliably rather than more damage on an occasional hit. Reasons? a) When facing a big damage dealing setup, you might not get the time for a big hit. b) With a bit of ECM on the other side, it would be too easy to turn your occasional big hit into a never big hit. And, why do the Minmatar sensors have such a short range, when their ships also have such bad tanking? A good case of can't do long, can't do short?* * OK, I know it can be done, but only by sacrificing slots othat other races can use for something more useful.
Shidhe	Posted - 2004.12.26 16:33:00 - [146] I would rather have the tracking to hit reliably rather than more damage on an occasional hit. Reasons? a) When facing a big damage dealing setup, you might not get the time for a big hit. b) With a bit of ECM on the other side, it would be too easy to turn your occasional big hit into a never big hit. And, why do the Minmatar sensors have such a short range, when their ships also have such bad tanking? A good case of can't do long, can't do short?* * OK, I know it can be done, but only by sacrificing slots othat other races can use for something more useful.
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.12.26 16:57:00 - [147] It would be nice to know that the devs are paying attension to this but over the holidays i dont expect much even they deserve some time off You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.12.26 16:57:00 - [148] It would be nice to know that the devs are paying attension to this but over the holidays i dont expect much even they deserve some time off You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.12.26 16:58:00 - [149] Originally by: Shidhe I would rather have the tracking to hit reliably rather than more damage on an occasional hit. Reasons?... Of course, who wants to gamble with their clone... My main problem with the Big guns is that even with minmatar ship bonus and dam mods, the cruise still do more DOT, so its better for me to fit as many missiles as possible, then the rest with guns. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.12.26 16:58:00 - [150] Originally by: Shidhe I would rather have the tracking to hit reliably rather than more damage on an occasional hit. Reasons?... Of course, who wants to gamble with their clone... My main problem with the Big guns is that even with minmatar ship bonus and dam mods, the cruise still do more DOT, so its better for me to fit as many missiles as possible, then the rest with guns. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.

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