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Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 71	Posted - 2012.07.26 21:29:00 - [1] - Quote If I wanted to deal with "bubble-heal" I'd go play WoW. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 71	Posted - 2012.07.26 22:42:00 - [2] - Quote Pinky Feldman wrote: Elvis Fett wrote: For me the problem with the ASB is it makes normal shield boosters totally irrelevant. Currently the ASB reps about 60% more shield than a normal T2 shield booster. That is something I just don't understand, it seems backwards. If the ASB and normal shield booster both gave the same amount of shield, the ASB would still be superior. With a normal shield booster you usually need a cap battery in one of your mid slots to run it, with the ASB that cap battery is not necessary giving you an extra mid slot for more tank. The ASB is also neut proof, which is a pretty big deal in both pvp and pve. Actually I have heard a couple people claim to be running lvl 5 missions in active shield tanked ships with ASBs. I am too scared to lose a BS PvE'ing to try for myself, but it seems plasuible Instead of nerfing the ASB into the ground, i rather see normal shield boosters get a big buff. Or possibly just switch the two's shield repping amount so the normal SB reps 60% more shield as the ASB. Either way large fleets are still going to buffer tank because they have logi. Increasing the effectiveness of active tanking just gives smaller gangs a better chance of engaging a larger gang and coming out on top. Overall I like the idea of the ASB, I just don't like seeing it being the only effective way of active tanking for PvP. Normal shield boosters were totally irrelevant beforehand unless you wanted to use boosters, links, and a faction/deadspace booster. And even with all that, theres a good chance you'd still probably die in a fire to a single neuting ship before you could kill it. The issue isn't that ASBs are overpowered, the issue is that active shield tanking beforehand was hilariously underpowered and now active shield tanking finally has some relevance. Because armor reps don't need cap. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 72	Posted - 2012.07.26 23:25:00 - [3] - Quote Rigel Vex wrote: ASB's are perfect. They take skill to use and give you a great tank for a limited time. It truly awesome seeing shield ships out on the solo front again. Stop complaining and enjoy it. If you can't kill some1 thats ASB fit then you're flying wrong :P 1) How is there "skill" in pressing ALT-F1? (or F1, depending on where you place the module in your HUD) 2) You know what else gives you a great tank for a limited time? Paladin bubble. 3) I solo in shield ships just fine, as do others I know. 4) If it's so easy to kill someone that's ASB fit then why are so many people fitting them? And why you defending them? chinrub Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 72	Posted - 2012.07.27 00:07:00 - [4] - Quote You can read the same "timing" argument on the WoW forums concerning Paladin bubble. Okay, so if you don't time your ASB a certain way you'll be *less* OP. My heart bleeds. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 72	Posted - 2012.07.27 00:17:00 - [5] - Quote Dynast wrote: Xuixien wrote: You can read the same "timing" argument on the WoW forums concerning Paladin bubble. Okay, so if you don't time your ASB a certain way you'll be *less* OP. My heart bleeds. If you read the wow forums, you should probably stick complaining about how underpowered your Blood Elf Prostitute is on the wow forums. Okay, I've read this about 7 times now and I still can't figure out what you're trying to say. I feel like the sentence is missing a word or two that would complete the puzzle. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 72	Posted - 2012.07.27 00:57:00 - [6] - Quote Dynast wrote: Xuixien wrote: Dynast wrote: Xuixien wrote: You can read the same "timing" argument on the WoW forums concerning Paladin bubble. Okay, so if you don't time your ASB a certain way you'll be *less* OP. My heart bleeds. If you read the wow forums, you should probably stick complaining about how underpowered your Blood Elf Prostitute is on the wow forums. Okay, I've read this about 7 times now and I still can't figure out what you're trying to say. I feel like the sentence is missing a word or two that would complete the puzzle. The implied meaning is that WoW is crap and you should know better than use it as a reference, as admitting you follow it suggests that you, yourself, are crap. Oh okay, so just trolling then. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 72	Posted - 2012.07.27 01:48:00 - [7] - Quote Pinky Feldman wrote: Xuixien wrote: Pinky Feldman wrote: Elvis Fett wrote: For me the problem with the ASB is it makes normal shield boosters totally irrelevant. Currently the ASB reps about 60% more shield than a normal T2 shield booster. That is something I just don't understand, it seems backwards. If the ASB and normal shield booster both gave the same amount of shield, the ASB would still be superior. With a normal shield booster you usually need a cap battery in one of your mid slots to run it, with the ASB that cap battery is not necessary giving you an extra mid slot for more tank. The ASB is also neut proof, which is a pretty big deal in both pvp and pve. Actually I have heard a couple people claim to be running lvl 5 missions in active shield tanked ships with ASBs. I am too scared to lose a BS PvE'ing to try for myself, but it seems plasuible Instead of nerfing the ASB into the ground, i rather see normal shield boosters get a big buff. Or possibly just switch the two's shield repping amount so the normal SB reps 60% more shield as the ASB. Either way large fleets are still going to buffer tank because they have logi. Increasing the effectiveness of active tanking just gives smaller gangs a better chance of engaging a larger gang and coming out on top. Overall I like the idea of the ASB, I just don't like seeing it being the only effective way of active tanking for PvP. Normal shield boosters were totally irrelevant beforehand unless you wanted to use boosters, links, and a faction/deadspace booster. And even with all that, theres a good chance you'd still probably die in a fire to a single neuting ship before you could kill it. The issue isn't that ASBs are overpowered, the issue is that active shield tanking beforehand was hilariously underpowered and now active shield tanking finally has some relevance. Because armor reps don't need cap. Ships that Armor tank generally tend to have utility mids so you can fit dual cap boosters of appropriate size without any problem in addition to a prop mod and two tackle mods. Try doing that on a shield ship and you'll quickly see why active shield tanking has been underpowered for so long. No such thing as dual webs and a nos. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 72	Posted - 2012.07.27 01:53:00 - [8] - Quote Milton Middleson wrote: Xuixien wrote: You can read the same "timing" argument on the WoW forums concerning Paladin bubble. Okay, so if you don't time your ASB a certain way you'll be *less* OP. My heart bleeds. You haven't actually established the validity of the comparison between 'Paladin bubbles' (whatever those are) and ASBs, so the raising the fact that WoW players defend bubbles using a 'timing' argument is both irrevelant and fallacious. Besides which, good timing is an element of skill in any game where time is a relevant factor. Moreover, if you don't time your ASB properly, you'll fall on your face and leave your ass flapping in the wind. It's worse than useless, because to fit that ASB you gave up a midslot, which means you're either short on buffer or sacrificed utility in order to have a short-duration high-dps tank. A clever opponent will just stand off until you run out of charges and kill you on your reload. Because in a 1v1 engagement, the amount of DPS most frigates put out compared to the amount of shields regenerated with the ASB makes the frigate with the ASB nigh invulnerable - for a limited time. Which is exactly what a Paladin bubble in WoW is, and you hear the very exact same arguments used to defend it as a game mechanic: "it's okay to have limited invulnerability you have to time it properly". Not to mention it makes shield ships that were already beefy (Merlins anyone?) virtually indestructible within the time frame of most frigate engagements. And yeah, a clever opponent will stand off until you're out of charges - by that time you're overheating your prop and disengaging, or the other person has lost the war of attrition (HP) and left, or has no chance - after all, by the time you run out of charges, you still have high shields, because the ASB lets you press "start over" on your side of the HP race. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 72	Posted - 2012.07.27 02:07:00 - [9] - Quote NOTE My contention isn't that ASB's exist, it's the amount of HP they rep, which needs to be iterated upon. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 72	Posted - 2012.07.27 02:10:00 - [10] - Quote edit: posted in wrong thread Rabble Rabble!!

Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 72	Posted - 2012.07.27 03:22:00 - [11] - Quote Pinky Feldman wrote: I am now convinced that you don't actually play EVE. Because insults prove points. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 73	Posted - 2012.07.29 04:52:00 - [12] - Quote M1k3y Koontz wrote: I would like to point out that in AT10 CCP limited ships to using just 1 ASB. Discuss. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 73	Posted - 2012.07.29 05:28:00 - [13] - Quote Pinky Feldman wrote: Xuixien wrote: Pinky Feldman wrote: I am now convinced that you don't actually play EVE. Because insults prove points. You haven't proved a single point other or really refuted any of my points regarding the issues with active shield tanking other than attempt to make witty one liners that show nothing. The point remains that up until the ASB, active shield tanking was a complete joke and was so ridiculously niche that it was rarely used. People seem to get upset and complain that something must be OP and needs to be nerfed if it happens to beat them. The fact that the ASB allows active shield tanking to do things it previously couldn't is the entire point of introducing new modules. It still dies terribly in large fleet engagements, heaven forbid, small gang warfare gets a buff. I've killed tons of ASB fit ships, so i'd say the feature is working intended. Sure a lot of people argue that the ability to run two is unbeatable, but i've killed enough people running dual booster setups that i'd argue it isn't. People just need to understand that matchups that were previously clear cut are now much more different due to the introduction of a new module. You're forgetting that I, also, can fit ASB's on my ships, thus mooting your entire claim that I'm "just mad because it beats me". Also your claim that the ASB is fine because "shield tanking was a joke" in the past is so nonsensical that I don't even know how to begin addressing it. In fact, it's less a line of reasoning at is a ... justification. An excuse, really. You really aren't making any points. Saying "people are just mad" and "working as intended" doesn't prove any points. Nor does your attempt to qualify yourself by saying "I've killed tons of ASB fit ships." I decided to look into that and check out your KB. Looking at it, I was a bit disappointed: You have very few small engagements on your record for the past 2 months, and of the small engagements (qualified here as 5 or less so we don't end up quibbling about it), I'm not finding any ships that are ASB fits. Most of your kills have 5 or more people involved, and a great many are 20 man gangs. All this shows is that with a big enough gang, it isn't very hard to kill anything, regardless of fit. And this thread, if you'd read the OP, is about small gang/1v1 engagements. As far as small gang and 1v1 engagements go, ASB's have really thrown the balance off kilter. I'm not going to argue whether or not shield tanking was "a joke" before (I fly mostly MSE fits myself and am satisfied with their performance), but there's definitely balance issues where small gang warfare is concerned - *which is precisely why CCP regulated the use of ASB's in the Alliance Tournament.* For all your tough talk, I'm not impressed with the argument and rhetoric you've presented. And that comment that an active tank battleship "should" be able to permanently tank 5 battlecruisers was the final nail the coffin, and really explains the type of mindset you're approaching this argument from. Have a good one. o/ Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 73	Posted - 2012.07.29 17:51:00 - [14] - Quote Excuse my ignorance here, but I have just one question... Pro-ASB's are saying that ASB's are okay because they're on par with an MSE and provide a comparable amount of HP... If that's the case then how is ASB better than an MSE? Why use ASB over an MSE? They both take up a mid slot, correct? They both provide the same amount of HP (supposedly according to you), correct? Just a simple question. Why are you praising ASB's if they're about the same as MSE's, which are cheaper and require no charges. Thanks. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 73	Posted - 2012.07.29 22:04:00 - [15] - Quote Zarnak Wulf wrote: Dual MSAB frigates are kind of meh. You have to give up alot of DPS in order to squeeze two onto such a small frame. They have a decent tank but when most Assault Frigates can do close to 300 DPS - and your super tanked frigate only does 150 or so - they can be beat down. On the whole Shield Extender to ASB comparison - it's a really thin line. If an ASB doesn't put enough HP in to equal the MSE - the module is worthless. If it puts in too much - obviously OP. If it's just right then you have to weigh alpha considerations vs. signature radius as some deciding factors. I've come to accept that these modules will probably have something done about them. I'm all for a 1 per ship limit. The original idea was a quick burst tank on a high DPS platform. You see three X-Large on a Mael and it causes you to roll your eyes though. If the MSE and the ASB produce the same amount of HP overall, how is the ASB not a bit OP considering it's an active tank that can't be neuted and has much lighter fitting requirements? Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 73	Posted - 2012.07.29 22:38:00 - [16] - Quote Zarnak Wulf wrote: As for nuet resistance - working as intended. You can't tell me that you aren't just a little sick of mandatory nuets on the utitilty highs of every single ship? God forbid we have to choose missiles and rockets and a little bit more DPS to beat down ASB fits. I have fought dual MASB frigates 1v1 three times in the recent past. I won two and lost the third after breaking it's tank. (Third time he had an off-grid booster.) In all three fights I had an Enyo whose tank consisted of a DC and a Explosive plate. I had nuetrons and a rocket launcher in the high. Gank > Tank on the frigate level. "Everyone can fit for max DPS now and not worry about things like utility." : ASB's: dumbing EVE down 1 engagement at a time. "I beat it so it's not OP." : Not a valid argument anymore than "it beat me so its OP" is. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 73	Posted - 2012.07.30 05:29:00 - [17] - Quote Pinky Feldman wrote: Anger, insults, no actual points made. Not empty quoting. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 73	Posted - 2012.07.30 05:32:00 - [18] - Quote Pinky Feldman wrote: You just argued that amount of people that are winning or losing to ASB setups isn't a valid arguement if its OP or not. Actually, I never said that. Learn to read, and then go on back and work through my post again. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 73	Posted - 2012.07.30 05:51:00 - [19] - Quote Hrett wrote: Sheynan wrote: I really think X-ASBs should stay as they are. Just because there is no x-large shield extender. And with these ASBs we have the ability to mirror one which is awesome. P.S: And still: perma-tanking shouldn't happen with ASBs because that is where they really invalidate traditional shield boosters EDIT: I'd love to see x-asbs as active tanks in mid to large size fleet fights Watch the alliance tournament videos on YouTube and you can see a single Sleipnier tank the DPS from an entire teams Damage boats. It's pretty amazing. They need a nerfin. ;) No no, ASB's are fine as long as they beat him eventually. Just as Pinky Feldman. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 73	Posted - 2012.07.30 15:24:00 - [20] - Quote Pinky Feldman wrote: Glosses over any points made and instead loses temper and resorts to insults. Doesn't understand why sloppy and improper usage of language may lead to semantic issues. Concedes the argument while trying to save face with a posturing parting shot. You just come on back when you actually have an argument, y'hear? Rabble Rabble!!

Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 98	Posted - 2012.08.08 16:38:00 - [21] - Quote When armor-bonused armor-tanking ships are slaping on an ASBs because it's better than their traditional armor tank, there's obviously an issue somewhere. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 98	Posted - 2012.08.08 21:14:00 - [22] - Quote Seishi Maru wrote: Xuixien wrote: When armor-bonused armor-tanking ships are slaping on an ASBs because it's better than their traditional armor tank, there's obviously an issue somewhere. you mean as the shield tanking ships were fitting 1600 plates for YEARS? Double standards anyone? You sound so bitter. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 98	Posted - 2012.08.08 21:21:00 - [23] - Quote Lugalzagezi666 wrote: Takeshi Yamato wrote: Can you be more specific? Which shield tanking ships are you talking about? Havent you noticed these armor tanked sleipnirs, drakes, maelstroms and cyclones around? Oh wait... So lets see : Shield tanked hyperion, yeah, ive seen it alot of times. Armor tanked maelstrom, hm, never. Shield tanked brutix, thats more cookie cutter than dual mar or 1600rt brutix. Armor tanked cyclone... hm, never. Shield tanked myrm - used to be very popular after te buff. Armor tanked drake, ehm, nope. Shield tanked astarte, i think ive seen few, not that much, but im sure ive never seen armor tanked sleipnir. CCPs conclusion from that - shield tanks are weak and not used enough, lets make new shield booster combined with cap booster that will provide massive active tank while being immune to neuts, without sig radius drawback and with fitting generous enough to fit oversized version or even multiple asbs on most ships. CCP is so smrt. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 99	Posted - 2012.08.09 14:47:00 - [24] - Quote So no one has been able to explain why I should fit my frigate with an ASB over an MSE - I mean after all, if they give the "same amount of HP" and everything, why not just use the MSE hm? Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 99	Posted - 2012.08.09 19:06:00 - [25] - Quote Lugalzagezi666 wrote: Med asb gives more hp overall, doesnt have sig radius penalty, is affected by blue pill/crystals and needs significantly less pg to fit (= higher tier guns, increased cpu can be easily reduced again by using iffa, faint scram, fleeting web etc.). For me it was enough to refit all my frigs that used to fit mse to masbs (jag, hawk, harpy, merlin...). Why not just buff MSE's a bit then. Seems like a lot of hassle. Also no sig radius penalty on shields is stupid. If you want low sig, go armor or go home. Rabble Rabble!!
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 107	Posted - 2012.08.14 17:13:00 - [26] - Quote It's sad when entrenched (inside the box!) thinking and knee-jerk party line catchphrases override rational discussion and the improvement of our collectively shared universe. Rabble Rabble!! Don't mind me. I just enjoy crapping all over the forums and laughing at the people who take it too seriously.
Xuixien Rifterlings Ushra'Khan 108	Posted - 2012.08.14 18:29:00 - [27] - Quote Sandra Buldock wrote: Can't think of any actual argument, resorts to namecalling. Not empty quoting. Rabble Rabble!! Don't mind me. I just enjoy crapping all over the forums and laughing at the people who take it too seriously.