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ThaMa Gebir Gallente SUECHTLER Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.27 09:14:00 - [1] It was mentioned in another thread about precious metals contained in asteroids. Zeba I think it was mentioned it. well just a thought I had years ago. How about making some kind of landing strip on the moon? then have the shuttle run up there with supplies and start a mining base, if indeed there is water (in one form or another) is on the moon, then wouldn't it be an idea to try and mine it along with the metals and resources etc to ship (shuttle) back to earth... Thus starting a launch pad effectively to the stars? Is it possible considering our current tech? ---------------------------- Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........ Hah, no more hijacks here!!!!
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.27 09:35:00 - [2] We have enough water here, once a shuttle lands it has to be refitted with new rockets because they don't land under power, asteroid minerals are not on the moon and the belt in our system is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of our range. Signature locked for editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
Jack Airron Gallente Wrecking Shots -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2010.08.27 09:39:00 - [3] Originally by: ThaMa Gebir It was mentioned in another thread about precious metals contained in asteroids. Zeba I think it was mentioned it. well just a thought I had years ago. How about making some kind of landing strip on the moon? then have the shuttle run up there with supplies and start a mining base, if indeed there is water (in one form or another) is on the moon, then wouldn't it be an idea to try and mine it along with the metals and resources etc to ship (shuttle) back to earth... Thus starting a launch pad effectively to the stars? Is it possible considering our current tech? With our current technology we could be exploring the solar system by now and in 50 years possibly other stars. but with the constant persecution of scientists by the club dragging grunting sheepole of the general public our scientific advancements are slowed. Also power generation is a problem with the advent of Fusion power id expect to see us develop into a space faring civilization in around the same time of the computer revolution. but dont lose hope, with in our lifetimes the average life span of humans will more then likely be in the 400-2000 year mark given the amount of advancement in nanotechnology.
Flap jak Fleetworks The Spire Collective	Posted - 2010.08.27 09:39:00 - [4] Sad to say most of the world could care less about space. A lot of people think space programs are a waste of money. It sucks to think that we (human race) are all doomed to die on this rock. __
Aldarica Spinal Discipline	Posted - 2010.08.27 09:40:00 - [5] Edited by: Aldarica on 27/08/2010 09:40:45 Such endeavor is not profitable, not yet. In few hundred years it might be though.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.27 10:10:00 - [6] Edited by: Zeba on 27/08/2010 10:15:09 Originally by: Intense Thinker We have enough water here, once a shuttle lands it has to be refitted with new rockets because they don't land under power, asteroid minerals are not on the moon and the belt in our system is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of our range. If you check out the video in that other thread the op mentioned that I was in you will notice that plenty of asteriods come to us nearly every week or so. So those astronomically huge distances to the krupier belt get weened down to a few million or even much less letting you guide an asteroid on a compatible trajectory into the moons orbit using some means of propulsion to deflect its orbit. Then its just a matter of inserting it into the proper lagrange and doing what needs to be done. Hell if the will were summoned it could probably be achieved in 20 years or less if the proper level of brains were applied like during the heyday of space exploration in the 70's and 80's. Also accourding to a recent survey of the moon by probes it seems the surface is literally covered with a prime propellant that a plasma or ion drive could use. Hell there are nuclear rocket designs that date to the 80's that could use it as fuel so that is of little issue once a running moon base is ever established. The hard part is getting the initial infrastructure setup and proper doctrines worked out for working off the planet in a safe manner that doesn't leave your genitals glowing in the dark. But once that is done man is free to start really exploring the solar system. And the sucky part is we have the tech to do it all right now. Just no will.. Originally by: CCP Oveur My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard. Originally by: Ryhss There is no paranoia in Eve, everyone is out to get you....
Aldarica Spinal Discipline	Posted - 2010.08.27 10:36:00 - [7] Edited by: Aldarica on 27/08/2010 10:44:44 Originally by: Zeba And the sucky part is we have the tech to do it all right now. Just no will.. I believe it's not about the will, but money. We won't look up into the sky for as long as it's cheaper to dig for ore here on Earth. Once it becomes unprofitable (when all reserves are gone) I can imagine mining colonies set on the Moon or near asteroids. But considering estimated deposites on our planet and advancement in mining/refining technologies this won't happen any time soon I'm afraid.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.27 10:44:00 - [8] Originally by: Aldarica Originally by: Zeba And the sucky part is we have the tech to do it all right now. Just no will.. I believe it's not about the will, but money. We won't look up into the sky for as long as it's cheaper to dig for ore here on Earth. Once it becomes unprofitable (when all reserves are gone) I can imagine mining colonies set on Moon or near asteroids. But this won't happen very soon I'm afraid. Well when I'm talking about refining them I'm not talking about for the bulk stuff like iron and such that we still have in abundance on earth. I'm talking about the rare elements that seem to be plentiful in certain type of roids and the absolute stranglehold they have on the production of high tech contraptions. Also imagine snagging one with plentiful amounts of fissable material and so make nuclear power an affordable solution if a huge supply of fuel was able to be mined. Oh the profits are there all right its just getting the groundwork established so the private corps can move in and take over. Originally by: CCP Oveur My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard. Originally by: Ryhss There is no paranoia in Eve, everyone is out to get you....
Aldarica Spinal Discipline	Posted - 2010.08.27 10:51:00 - [9] I agree with you Zeba, and I'm pretty sure that the first Moon or asteroid mining colony will be built very quickly after calculations show it's more profitable to go up there than to dig the Earth. Until then...
ThaMa Gebir Gallente SUECHTLER Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.27 10:58:00 - [10] Until then we will have to wait for the economy to get its thumb out of its arse and cough up the cash to make this possible. I seriously cannot see the human race getting anywhere when the resources are too much cost wise because they will probably be the very resources needed to get us up to the moon. Basically the first one who gets up there will win real life I guess. ---------------------------- Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........ Hah, no more hijacks here!!!!
Xroxreariad Ramatarapap	Posted - 2010.08.27 11:04:00 - [11] Originally by: ThaMa Gebir Basically the first one who gets up there will win real life I guess. Why am I thinking about Chinese lol
ThaMa Gebir Gallente SUECHTLER Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.27 11:06:00 - [12] Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap Originally by: ThaMa Gebir Basically the first one who gets up there will win real life I guess. Why am I thinking about Chinese lol Because they are probably the only ones who would actually do so regardless of the current political or financial situation... ---------------------------- Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........ Hah, no more hijacks here!!!!
Xroxreariad Ramatarapap	Posted - 2010.08.27 11:11:00 - [13] Edited by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap on 27/08/2010 11:12:07 Originally by: ThaMa Gebir Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap Originally by: ThaMa Gebir Basically the first one who gets up there will win real life I guess. Why am I thinking about Chinese lol Because they are probably the only ones who would actually do so regardless of the current political or financial situation... yeah thats what ideology can do.... to motivate people to think beyound their wallets
ThaMa Gebir Gallente SUECHTLER Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.27 11:12:00 - [14] All of this being considered I believe the best form of power supply (for the local power that is) would be nuclear. A relative ease of not contaminating (or at least damage limitation) of current terrestrial surroundings, and also good long life for it. Also secondly solar power is much easier to use up there due to the non-reduction of light or whatever waves/particles by atmosphere. ---------------------------- Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........ Hah, no more hijacks here!!!!
ThaMa Gebir Gallente SUECHTLER Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.27 11:24:00 - [15] Originally by: Intense Thinker We have enough water here, once a shuttle lands it has to be refitted with new rockets because they don't land under power, asteroid minerals are not on the moon and the belt in our system is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of our range. Ok, let's say that the shuttle had to be refit everytime. Then forget it, and instead have a lunar lander type eva vehicle. this time having the shuttle park in orbit instead. Or have a few launchers like the eagle autopiloted up to the moon, each with fuel onboard beforehand and then get the humans move the stuff to where it is needed and commence collecting the resources, eventually sending it off as each gets full with the stuff before the return trip on the shuttle. Big undertaking but meh, that's what you need when starting off isn't it? ---------------------------- Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........ Hah, no more hijacks here!!!!
Cikulisuy Amarr D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2010.08.27 14:43:00 - [16] the only thing to mine on the moon is h3, which is perfect, actually. ~
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2010.08.27 14:44:00 - [17] Edited by: Wendat Huron on 27/08/2010 14:44:48 Why a landing strip, would anything actually need to come in like a plane up there and would it even be desirable given the gravity? Delenda est achura.
Vak'ran	Posted - 2010.08.27 15:08:00 - [18] Edited by: Vak''ran on 27/08/2010 15:09:56 Originally by: Wendat Huron Edited by: Wendat Huron on 27/08/2010 14:44:48 Why a landing strip, would anything actually need to come in like a plane up there and would it even be desirable given the gravity? Nail on the head moment here. Shuttles like the ones we have now are utterly unpractical for lunar resourcing. They are designed to do complex techy stuff in earth orbit, they have wings because the bits doing the techy stuff arent throw-away and need to come back home in a nice and controlled fashion. Wings make no sense on the moon, and dumping mined materials back into earth's atmosphere doesn't require the finesse that wings provide. What would be more feasible is using scaled-up versions of the kit used in the 60's (pretty much what most space agencies are considering for eventual revisiting of the moon). When any form of mining there takes shape after that, think a larger-than-traditional mothership module able to carry a number of (also larger) cargo pods launched from the lunar surface which can be dropped into earth's atmosphere upon arrival home like any other capsule used in the past. With the current tech the most effective ways to go about it have already been designed in the 60's. The computer revolution added precision in operation and automation, but propulsion and atmospheric re-entry solutions are all still mostly the same, as long as they are not confused with earth orbit specific approaches that are less dated. Vak'Ran is your local official non-dedicated part-time advocate of reading comprehension and proliferation of intelligence on the EVE Online Forum
ThaMa Gebir Gallente SUECHTLER Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.27 16:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Wendat Huron Edited by: Wendat Huron on 27/08/2010 14:44:48 Why a landing strip, would anything actually need to come in like a plane up there and would it even be desirable given the gravity? Good point. Hence why I said in my second post that perhaps save the shuttle to just return the workers back to earth afterwards, leaving the shuttle in orbit during the moonwalk. ---------------------------- Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........ Hah, no more hijacks here!!!!
Chipan Asty	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:05:00 - [20] This is why religion must be slain and banished forever. Once we have educated the (lets be honest here) ignorant masses that science pwns god we can move on and achieve great things instead of waging war against our own kind.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Fyretracker Heavy Industries	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:18:00 - [21] Comes down to Money, People dont like their taxes going to space programs. Kinda sad, because at least here i the US if they had put bailouts to a public vote and the option was Trillions to AIG, or Trillions to NASA for Space exploration. id have picked NASA any day and let the crooks at the groups like AIG crash and burn.
Caleidascope Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:20:00 - [22] Heinlein and Pournelle, and many others, have wrote much on the subject of space exploration. The biggest problem is how to get out of gravity well. We pretty much figured out everything else, but we do not have a good way to get from surface to orbit. What we have now for getting from surface to orbit is big, bulky, unsafe and expansive.
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Red Federation	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:26:00 - [23] Originally by: Chipan Asty This is why religion must be slain and banished forever. Once we have educated the (lets be honest here) ignorant masses that science pwns god we can move on and achieve great things instead of waging war against our own kind. sorry to burst your bauble but science is a religion
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Fyretracker Heavy Industries	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Caleidascope Heinlein and Pournelle, and many others, have wrote much on the subject of space exploration. The biggest problem is how to get out of gravity well. We pretty much figured out everything else, but we do not have a good way to get from surface to orbit. What we have now for getting from surface to orbit is big, bulky, unsafe and expansive. Sucks that governments would rather make war and protect the bonuses of the banking CEOs than spend the coin to solve that lifting into space problem.
Ademaro Imre Caldari	Posted - 2010.08.27 19:21:00 - [25] Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 27/08/2010 19:22:05 There are dozens of plans to mine the moon for helium-3 to power fusion reactors, with current technology. Not one has the guts to put up the money, and actually start mining the moon though (at least until China is ready).
Vak'ran	Posted - 2010.08.27 19:46:00 - [26] Originally by: Ademaro Imre There are dozens of plans to mine the moon for helium-3 to power fusion reactors, with current technology. Not one has the guts to put up the money, and actually start mining the moon though (at least until China is ready). Putting some more people on actually inventing a working and energy-yielding fusion reactor in the first place would also be a rather good idea methinks... Vak'Ran is your local official non-dedicated part-time advocate of reading comprehension and proliferation of intelligence on the EVE Online Forum
Germaldi's Daughter Caldari The Motley Crew Reborn	Posted - 2010.08.27 19:56:00 - [27] why not build a space elevator on the moon instead? it would be better for launching minerals to and from the moon's surface into the moons orbit.
Vak'ran	Posted - 2010.08.27 20:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Germaldi's Daughter why not build a space elevator on the moon instead? it would be better for launching minerals to and from the moon's surface into the moons orbit. Escaping the moon's gravity isn't the biggest problem. Its gravity isn't all that much of a barrier and there is no atmosphere to spoil with any form of dirty propulsion. Also, I don't think we are as near to space elevators as we are to regular fuel hauls, technologically. When we get beyond the 'pretty picture on the cover of a scifi novel' stage in terms of space elevators, I'd say it would be a lot more interesting to look at as a solution to get people in space... someone's gotta push buttons on the moon. Vak'Ran is your local official non-dedicated part-time advocate of reading comprehension and proliferation of intelligence on the EVE Online Forum
Caleidascope Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.08.27 23:45:00 - [29] Originally by: Germaldi's Daughter why not build a space elevator on the moon instead? it would be better for launching minerals to and from the moon's surface into the moons orbit. To build anything on the Moon you first need to leave Earth gravity well. The big problem is getting out of the well.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2010.08.28 00:50:00 - [30] Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 28/08/2010 00:52:56 Originally by: Vak'ran Originally by: Germaldi's Daughter why not build a space elevator on the moon instead? it would be better for launching minerals to and from the moon's surface into the moons orbit. Escaping the moon's gravity isn't the biggest problem. Its gravity isn't all that much of a barrier and there is no atmosphere to spoil with any form of dirty propulsion. Also, I don't think we are as near to space elevators as we are to regular fuel hauls, technologically. When we get beyond the 'pretty picture on the cover of a scifi novel' stage in terms of space elevators, I'd say it would be a lot more interesting to look at as a solution to get people in space... someone's gotta push buttons on the moon. the moons shallow gravity well makes building a space elevator-like structure much easier, as you don't need exotic materials like nanotubes. A space elevator itself would be difficult as the moon's rotation is so slow that it'd have to be extremely long, but something like a skyhook or launch loop could work well...and energy saved is rocket fuel saved is money saved edit: and yeah, the biggest hurdle is getting off the ground here. launch costs in the thousands of dollars per kg are what really hurt space exploration _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep!
Gneeznow Minmatar Ship spinners inc	Posted - 2010.08.28 05:30:00 - [31] if this topic interests you there's a book you should read called red mars, it covers the colonization of mars using todays technology, the building of cities and towns on the surface, the birth of a civilization on mars, the building of a space elevator for passenger and cargo hauling into orbit, and the eventual revolution of the colonists when they have had enough of being corporate lackeys. It's one of the best sci-fi books you will ever read, there's two other books too called green mars which covers the terraforming and blue mars which jumps forward 200 years to when mars is earth like and independant, and it also covers the colonization of venus and moons around saturn.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.28 05:47:00 - [32] Originally by: Gneeznow if this topic interests you there's a book you should read called red mars, it covers the colonization of mars using todays technology, the building of cities and towns on the surface, the birth of a civilization on mars, the building of a space elevator for passenger and cargo hauling into orbit, and the eventual revolution of the colonists when they have had enough of being corporate lackeys. It's one of the best sci-fi books you will ever read, there's two other books too called green mars which covers the terraforming and blue mars which jumps forward 200 years to when mars is earth like and independant, and it also covers the colonization of venus and moons around saturn. I have read all three books. Awesome stuff and a catalyst for this topic. Originally by: CCP Oveur My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard. Originally by: Ryhss There is no paranoia in Eve, everyone is out to get you....
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2010.08.30 00:39:00 - [33] Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 30/08/2010 00:39:58 1) The US was going build a new rocket to go back to the moon to build a colony - Obama canceled it all. 2) The Chinese need ... 50 to 100 years (and getting rid of Communism) to take the place of the USA - but that probably will happen. Totalitarian systems do not imbue their people with a stronger will to do anything - they shackle creativity they are afraid they can't control. The problem the kids at Tienanmen had - was that they still had all those long lived first generation revolutionaries to contend with. Those guys are all dead now - but we're only into the second and third generation. What happened with the Soviets - was even most of the people who benefited from that system - came to see it for the unworkable system that it was. That hasn't happened in China yet ... thus the 50 to 100 years. 3) We are in a race against extinction with the multitude of things that can happen to this planet that would end life as we know it. We could have thousands of years ... or it could happen before I finish typing this sentence ... Whew. Made it. 4) People believe what they want to believe ... so #3 above scares nobody. Everyone thinks it's something we don't have to worry about in our life times - and hence don't give a damn what may happen in the future. 5) Given a cooperative effort by the world - there is very little we couldn't do or at least start to do, right now. The world is slightly better about cooperating than it has ever been ... which was - not at all. The USA and the Soviet Union did the vast majority of everything that has been done - despite the fact that much of the rest of the northern hemisphere was technologically capable of doing anything we did. The USA & the Soviet Union were simply the only ones willing to spend the money - and THAT - was only because they were each afraid of the other getting an advantage in space and using it to destroy them. The rest of our technological equals mostly just sat on their asses and let the two of us do all the work. The only thing that's changed - is that the USA & Russia ... now don't have the stimulus of being destroyed to spur their efforts. Without the Cold War - we STILL wouldn't have gotten to the moon. Now ... all that isn't to say that our technological equals haven't done anything ... it's just that - comparatively - they've done very, very little. 6) One of the major problems about things such as the development of space ... is that it all takes a long period of sustained effort ... which the very second there's any kind of economic disruption ... many people are ready to back burner. So - there will always be a reason not to do it. 7) Thus ... in the end ... our species continued existence ... is largely based on dumb luck. We've got all our eggs in one basket ... and ... we'll just have to see if we can get ourselves more baskets before something destroys this one. The fate of this planet has pretty much already been determined - we just don't know exactly what it is yet. If it's an asteroid that hits it - that asteroid is already on the way - however long it may take to get here. If it's volcanic action that wipes out life as we know it ... those processes are happening now - we just don't know enough to predict them accurately. 8) Governments have to lead the way - just as in exploration and the initial establishment of colonies on earth - until the Governments have cut the way - business isn't going to risk their capital. What needs to happen - is that the Governments of the planet need to get things far enough along - that business can believe that they can get rich in space. You have a few tentative efforts now ... but factories in space ... are a very, very long way from now. We have no colonies in space. Until the Earth's Governments get that done ... business isn't going to be following. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Fyretracker Heavy Industries	Posted - 2010.08.30 04:16:00 - [34] The world will never Cooperate It is simply impossible for humans to do so across the whole world. we will always have petty fighting over bull****. if its not resources it is who's god is better. In fact Religion has caused more wars and death across history than any other excuse to make war most likely. Honestly the only thing that could make people want to work together is a major event.
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2010.08.30 18:28:00 - [35] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker The world will never Cooperate It is simply impossible for humans to do so across the whole world. we will always have petty fighting over bull**. if its not resources it is who's god is better. In fact Religion has caused more wars and death across history than any other excuse to make war most likely. Honestly the only thing that could make people want to work together is a major event. Uh ... just a quibble with this on religious wars. Mostly ... the way those worked - was there were people in power who wanted the land or whatever of someone else - then as you mentioned - used religion as an EXCUSE to do what THEY wanted to do. So, while the lower ranks may well have been motivated by religious fervor ... there was usually something else going on behind the major wars. Now today ... you've got religious fanatics attacking people on largely religious grounds ... but those are fanatics and there actually aren't that many of them. Where people have a problem with them - is from **ing around in dealing with them instead of getting serious about it - putting some real muscle into your efforts - and crushing them. As to a major event ... yeah ... I suspect it would take some Aliens actually showing up to get the world to cooperate. That's usually what works - a common enemy that scares the hell out of everyone. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools

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