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The all seeing eye (local) must go

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.28 03:29:00 - [1] Originally by: Zisi I realize there have been plenty of posts about this already.... Then why don't you read some of those posts and read why removing local would make eve suck? Instead you just start a new post and don't address any of the reason this idea is horrible. In sum you want eve to: Make blobbing even more effective Make it take even longer to find a decent pvp fight Make solo pvp completely impossible Force everyone to spend the night spamming a lame system scanner. No thanks. Everyone has the option to go into a wormhole with no local. They can make a lot of isk and do all sorts of things there. 90% of eve players choose to play where you have local. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.28 04:30:00 - [2] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Eve is not a gank-bear game even if many think it is, there are checks and balances to almost everything. What's the check and balance to an alert PvE player who tracks local, watches intel chat, and aligns when things smell fishy? There isn't one, they'll never be ganked....... The check is they will never get their mission done if they dock everytime they see someone in local. But who cares about mission runners? I don't think everyone in eve lives for ganking mission runners. WE shouldn't change mechanics for something that very few are doing. The problem is you won't see the huge blobs moving into local as soon as you engage a solo ship or small gang. Hell you wouldnÆt even know the if the blob is cloaked on grid right before you attack! So what to do? Get your own blob. Blobs online! That is why removing local would make eve suck. Local is the main way blobs are avoided. Personally I donÆt care what happens in null sec but donÆt screw up low sec. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.29 02:49:00 - [3] Originally by: Drakarin Local is neutral. Everyone is forced to be visible so the disadvantage and advantage is even. No its not. Local gives a huge benefit to those who prefer small gang and solo pvp. Removing local would give a huge advantage to blobs. Right now if I am flying solo I can see someone is in the system. I can then do a dscan to see if they are in a ship I would want to fight. If so I can look around for them and fight. It still takes a long time but its much easier than what you would need to do with no local. If I see local spike with a ton of that playerÆs corp mates or militia mates I can gtfo before they are already warped on my head. That is the way you do solo and small gang pvp now. With no local you would need to check all the surrounding systems scanning like a fool looking for possible deep safes. Of course even if you see ships you wonÆt know if they have any relation to the person you want to attack so whatÆs the point? So lets say you attack because what choice do you have? Are you going to wait until you have found a target 1) within your range of engageable targets 2) searched your own system and all possible deep safe spots and no one is there and 3)checked all adjoining systems and no one is there 4) waited at least a minute to makes sure they arenÆt still cloaked from a gate? No you would never be able to meet all those conditions except 1 time every month. That is such a pain I would surely quit this game. But lets even say you do all 4 things that you do not need to do now when you solo or small gang roam. Then you can still get blobbed because that personÆs corp was just cloaked on grid with him and there was no way you could tell. Anyone who doesnÆt see how this would kill solo pvp does not do solo pvp. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.29 03:02:00 - [4] Originally by: Tradeahun Originally by: Cearain Originally by: Zisi I realize there have been plenty of posts about this already.... Then why don't you read some of those posts and read why removing local would make eve suck? Instead you just start a new post and don't address any of the reason this idea is horrible. .... Ever thought he did and simply disagreed? Not everyone is a moron and thinks that removing local is a bad idea. He gave no indication he was even aware of the problems. You think this wonÆt kill solo pvp? Then tell me how would you go about roaming solo in low sec if there was no local. I will tell you how I do it. I jump in a system and check local. If there is a huge blob of people from the same corp then I move on to the next system. Once I find one with only a few in local. Are they the same corp as the blob nextdoor? If yes donÆt bother. If no I I hit dscan and see what ships are out there. If its in my range of targets I try to engage and if I see local spike I try to gtfo before they can align and warp on top of me. So how is solo pvp going to work without local? Talk me through what you will do. Because the fact that you donÆt know how important local is to small gang or solo pvp strongly suggests to me that you only fly in blobs. And I donÆt mean this as an insult. ItÆs just a fact. Local is an indispensible tool for solo and small gang pilots. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.29 03:08:00 - [5] Originally by: Drakarin It also makes literally no sense that a hardcore pirate would keep his communication signal beacon activated. Just rip it out of your ship. No pirate would ever willingly let himself be known to others the moment he enters the system. In eve the gates not only know you entered but also whether you have an aggression timer still ticking so you can jump. So local fits in fine with how eve works. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.29 03:26:00 - [6] Originally by: Syllein I've long been a supporter of local removal, providing it went hand in hand with a re-working of cloak/ D-scan/ sov upgrades etc. And most of the arguments either way have been done to death in this thread already. As a "first step" perhaps I would be interested if Local could be changed to reduce the amount of intel it gave away? Namely remove pilot names and standing from local, leaving just a +/- one (or whatever number just jumped in/ out), and giving the ability to discover name/ standing to the D-scan. At least in this scenario those like me who enjoy scouting/ intel gathering would be able to do so effectively while remaining "in-corp". Well in the current system you can still scan and gather intel. Shiptypes etc. Personally I hate scouting and scanning and warping around all f-ing night. I like to actually have pvp fights. But you are starting down the road to how this almost always turns out. Pro removal:ôLetÆs remove local!ö Anti removal: ôWell that will just kill solo and small gang pvpö Now this will usually take some explaining before it will be made clear. But eventually all but the most thick-skulled players will see how this would indeed kill small gang and solo pvp so the thread will shift. Pro removal: ôWell we can make the dscan betterö Anti removal: ôoh great now I have to spam the dscan all the time even in the middle of a solo fight! And it still wonÆt tell me what corp some is in so I wonÆt know if I need to run or not. Does this make the game better or worse?ö Pro removal: ôWell we will improve the dscan so that it will automatically update. Plus we will make it tell you what corp the ship is from.ö Anti removal: ôwell umà if we are going to do that why not just keep local?ö There the thread dies. Until another thread will start: That starts something like ôIts time to remove local!!!ö This thread will ignore everything already sorted out in the prior threads. And insist that all the reasons why this idea sucks be repeated over and over again. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.29 04:46:00 - [7] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 29/11/2010 03:34:31 Originally by: Cearain Anyone who doesnÆt see how this would kill solo pvp does not do solo pvp. Only thing I do in EvE is solo pvp. This change would really benefit both sides. It would make pvp exciting. It would make pvp non-consensual. You sound like you expect to be safe while pvp'ng.... Your telling me I want safe pvp?? Looking over your battleclinic kills I had to get to the third page of your kills and back in time to may of 2009, before you ever killed anything with a point. If you donÆt have a killboard that shows you do anything beside ganking pve ships, donÆt try to tell me I expect to be ôsafe while pvpÆngö. Try to imagine you wanted the thrill of fighting something that can actually prevent you from simply warping if you start to take damage. Then try to think how the lack of local would effect your ability to solo pvp. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.29 04:54:00 - [8] Originally by: Kabaal ....Will it make things harder? Sure. That's kind of the point. Saying it will 'kill' solo/roam pvp is silly. Ok If I am being silly then please tell me how you would go about solo roaming in low sec or null sec without local to help you. I explained how I do it now - and local is a key tool. You explain how it would work with no local. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.29 16:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Drakarin Originally by: Cearain Originally by: Drakarin It also makes literally no sense that a hardcore pirate would keep his communication signal beacon activated. Just rip it out of your ship. No pirate would ever willingly let himself be known to others the moment he enters the system. In eve the gates not only know you entered but also whether you have an aggression timer still ticking so you can jump. So local fits in fine with how eve works. The gates scan and keep a record of the ship. There could be distinctive markers placed on each ship like a license plate, at the molecular level, however you want to justify it. It could be placed anywhere on the ship so there'd be no way to remove it. A communication array, however, can be removed or disabled. It makes sense that gates know everything about you. It doesn't make sense that you can't disconnect from local. Actually I think the aggression timer goes with the player not the ship. Gate keepers keep track of where you are and whether you can jump so it makes perfect sense that you canÆt disconnect from local. If you could disconnect from local you could jump right after attacking someone. LOL I feel like a treky arguing this stuff. I care more about how the game plays than justifying mumbo jumbo of the mechaincs. But what the heck for those who care there is my argument. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.29 16:39:00 - [10] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Cearain, I challenge you to get an alt or even use your main, I'll give you an alliance to war dec, if you get 1 kill per day, over a week period and not get killed, I'll give you a billion isk. Hello infinity. We play the game different. I do enjoy risks. I do not think engaging a ship that has no point is really taking a risk. IÆm not saying I would never attack a pve ship. I have and I will, but mainly IÆm looking to go to war with people who will fight back. Chasing pve ships is not how I want to spend time in the game. There are allot of people who do fly solo and in small gangs in low sec. (not sure about null sec because I donÆt fly there) IÆm certainly not the only one. I am not even very good at it. Look at many of the top pilots on BC (or the killboard of your choice). You will see that many of the top pilots kill many types of ships and most of their victims will have a point. ItÆs not the case that all pvp in eve consists of ganking pvers or blobbing. There are other options in the game û at least so long as local is available. If local is removed well then yes all pvp would consist of ganking pvers and blobbing. ThatÆs why the idea is a bad one. As far as your offer I donÆt even play every day of the week so I couldnÆt possibly get 1 kill per day per week. I am in fw and I get about 1 kill per 2 hours of play. I am lucky to get about 4- 6 hours of play per week. But here is the thing. I have no interest in war deccing people who blob. I look for targets that like to do solo and small gang stuff. It is sort of your fault that you are constantly at war with blobbers. DonÆt war dec or interact with the blobbers. Join fw or fight other low sec corps that like to do solo and small gang stuff. They are out there in low sec. Perhaps high sec is not the place to find them though û I donÆt really know. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906

Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.29 17:01:00 - [11] Originally by: Syllein Edited by: Syllein on 29/11/2010 15:35:00 Edited by: Syllein on 29/11/2010 15:32:49 Edited by: Syllein on 29/11/2010 15:17:42 Originally by: Cearain Originally by: Syllein As a "first step" perhaps I would be interested if Local could be changed to reduce the amount of intel it gave away? Namely remove pilot names and standing from local, leaving just a +/- one (or whatever number just jumped in/ out), and giving the ability to discover name/ standing to the D-scan. At least in this scenario those like me who enjoy scouting/ intel gathering would be able to do so effectively while remaining "in-corp". Well in the current system you can still scan and gather intel. Shiptypes etc. Personally I hate scouting and scanning and warping around all f-ing night. I like to actually have pvp fights. Good for you, however I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Namely why should I be forced to use an out of corp alt to do something I'd like to be doing on my main? As it stands if my main jumps into a system with WT's in they get a lovely "heads up guys, +1 WT in local....mmm maybe it's a scout trying to get a warp in on us" and can prepare accordingly. This sucks, and is the reason I have to roll with alts.. If you see a ship on dscan you likely will not have much time to get out of scram/disruptor range before it lands. Theya re already warping to you. However if you see a blob suddenly appear in local they will need to align and then warp to you and you may have a chance of escape. So during a fight I usually try to fly my ship as opposed to hitting the dscan and analyzing the results. Having to spam the dscan during a fight is pretty lame. Local makes it so you donÆt need to and this is good. As far as using your alt û well people start to recognize alts and which corps are working together. I know where I roam in low sec I have some idea who is friendly to others. In sum it seems clear that removing local will just boost blobbing and make small gang and solo pvp less viable û unless you are just ganking pve-ers. No one even seems to question that. The question is why do we want that? I think we need mechanics that do the opposite. The mechanics need to make solo and small gang pvp more feasible and blobbing less of the answer to every issue. So removing local is going in the complete opposite direction of what ccp should do. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.29 17:07:00 - [12] Originally by: Lemmy Kravitz Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 29/11/2010 07:49:57 Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 29/11/2010 07:47:10 Solo PvP will stay the same, just require alittle more time for you to determine if you are 100% safe to gank. A little more time? 100% safe? Please explain the process of how you go about solo pvping with no local. No local would completely kill solo pvp except for those who only want to attack pve ships. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.29 21:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Nuts Nougat Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Stuff 1) And why would suddenly there be more people around to blob you because there's no more local. Its not that there would be more blobs. But local is an essential tool to help small gangs and solo pvpers avoid them. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.29 21:51:00 - [14] Originally by: Drakarin Originally by: Cearain Actually I think the aggression timer goes with the player not the ship. Gate keepers keep track of where you are and whether you can jump so it makes perfect sense that you canÆt disconnect from local. If you could disconnect from local you could jump right after attacking someone. LOL I feel like a treky arguing this stuff. I care more about how the game plays than justifying mumbo jumbo of the mechaincs. But what the heck for those who care there is my argument. Then the gate scans the Pod itself, which remains the same unless the player dies. In which case, the aggression timer is removed. So yes, it makes more sense that the gate simply scans and keeps track of the player's personal pod. Has nothing to do with local, and how any pirate should be able to disconnect from it. Sure it does. This information is kept track of and is published in local. If a pirate could disconnect from it then it would be able to jump through gates without concern of aggression timers. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.29 22:13:00 - [15] Originally by: Syllein If you see a ship on dscan you likely will not have much time to get out of scram/disruptor range before it lands. Theya re already warping to you. Ummm what? I do this regularly, when solo I always attempt to be in "control" (for want of a better word) of the fight. Disengaging when something nasty pops up on scan is not always 100% possible, but that's what makes it interesting. Sometimes you can kill and run, sometimes you get caught and burn. Either way, it's a GF. Not always 100% possible? Finding out after they are already mid warp on to you makes it beyond very hard to get out. Now even with local its very hard to gtfo. Until I see some sort of killboard that shows you do some solo pvp I have to think you donÆt know what you are talking about. IÆm not saying you would never check you scanner or that this canÆt be helpful. Especially if you have a ship that does not require much as far as manual flying. But it is an extremely poor substitute for local when it comes to avoiding blobs. Originally by: Syllein In all honesty, we just won't know what would happen until we try it. Personally I'd love to give it a go and see what happens.I'm not convinced it will boost blobbing as much as you think, but again you never know 'till you try. ItÆs not hard to figure out why this would be a huge boost to blobbing. ItÆs sort of like asking ôgee what will happen to the price of this item if npcs stop selling it?ö The main tool the solo pvp has to reduce the risk of getting blobbed is local. So ôwhat will happen to solo pvp if we take away the main tool they have to mitigate getting blobbed?ö I have asked this several times and not one person who wants to do away with local can give an answer. How would you suggest going about solo pvp if there is no local? The only way it appears you would be able to do anything is sneaking up on pve ships. Otherwise every fight is just a complete crap shoot as to whether you will get blobbed. Sorry this is not a mystery. Solo pvpers and small gangs benefit from local more than larger fleets. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.30 02:22:00 - [16] Originally by: Infinity Ziona The argument that gates broadcast such and such is irrelevent. We had gates and local way before we had agression timers. Your argument would seem to support jump drive / cyno'ed ships not showing up in local since they didn't go through a gate. In reality gates have zero to do with people showing up in local, the aggression timers were put in to stop gate games and were not tied to local chat at all... Your confusing real life changes to the game of eve to how it makes sense in the game itself. As for the rest you are still on the carebear versus ganker page. There are other ways to play eve. Lots, if not the vast majority, of pvpers engage other people set up to pvp. Yes this would be a nice change for people like yourself, who choose mainly fight transport ships and pve fits. That is until it gets stupidly annoying for people to pve in this game anymore, and they leave. Sure most pvpers would love to take down an enemy pve ship or a transport. But most pvpers are looking for more fights than the occasional soft target like that. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.30 02:31:00 - [17] Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha I'm still not seeing the issue, but I don't intend to solo pvp (and win). There have been dev posts about not liking the 100% info local provides for no effort. The dev opinion in question only wanted to modify 0.0, so it's possible your lowsec browsing won't be affected when the change comes. At the same time, you might want to start developing your own strategies just in case. Whats not to see? When you solo pvp you depend on local so you are not constantly blobbed. If you take away local you take away something that solo pvpers need. Not sure how I can spell it out any more plain. As far as local giving too much for nothing what exactly do you mean? CCP wants to demand we exchange a click to get local information? Is that what some natural law of internet spaceships requires? Why canÆt our ships know who is in local in ôknown spaceö? Is it a click that we need to offer or isk? Do we need pay a certain sum of isk in order to have local work? I mean this is all made up nonsense. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.30 04:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha Your stance is that an inactive, null effort tool is necessary to.... Again what is the problem. Must we give the effort of a ôclickö or violate some internet spaceship natural law? Can't we assume our space ship computer is programmed to click whatever button is necessary to gather this information? Does Captain Kirk himself have to constantly click this button to find out this information? How about if we pay some isk to have a crewman constanlty give us the information from local? Will that satisfy you? That way we don't have to click constantly like idiots. You know there is a difference between making a game challenging and just making it annoying. Constantly having to click the same button fits in the latter category. Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha I say if you want solo PvP /tryhard or suck it up and get a gang with a dedicated scout. I honestly don't care if you can't solo without it. I'd rather have a need for scouts to give people solo work to do than hide under some crazy assumption that we need to all know each other is there so we can decide if we want to duel or not. As for promoting blobs, lol. Somehow this will encourage people to go from bringing everyone they have to...bringing everyone they have? Having local doesnÆt make everything into a duel. You say if I want solo pvp ôtryhard.ö What exactly do you mean by that? You can really offer nothing. In the end you are saying is ôyes this will obviously screw up small gang and solo pvp but you donÆt do that anyway so who cares.ö This will help blobbers who canÆt do anything in the game other than do what they are told like ôprimary Xö and then ôprimary Yö and then ôPrimary Zö. Everyone else who enjoys small scale and solo pvp where you actually have to think a bit will take it in the A___. Its not that those who blob have any reason not to continue blobbing now. Its just that everyone else who likes to pvp in eve without forming big blobs will have what they like to do made so tedious and difficult no one will ever do it again. Why? Because you have this crazy notion that certain information shouldnÆt be given out unless you click a button. Good idea. WE MUST REQUIRE MORE INCESSANT CLICKING IN EVE!!! No thanks. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.30 14:51:00 - [19] Originally by: Syllein Edited by: Syllein on 30/11/2010 08:33:00 Originally by: Cearain I have asked this several times and not one person who wants to do away with local can give an answer. How would you suggest going about solo pvp if there is no local? Sorry to labour the point, but do you absolutely need the information as to standings/ corp/ player history made available to you before you fight? Or more to the point, do you honestly think this level of Intel should be handed to you on a plate? Would a simple "system count" be sufficient? With further intel made available if you had to spend a little time & effort to acquire it? IÆm going to call this the ôeve natural lawö argument. The idea you and others have expressed is that it is against some natural law of eve that we should get this information without first mashing a scanner button. With that in mind lets look at your question. ôDo I honestly think this level of intel should be handed to me on a plate?ö I suppose you would answer this question with öAbsolutely not! To get this information we should have to warp around for a half hour at least mashing a scanner button. ô I canÆt see how this will make the game more fun. Perhaps you would agree this isnÆt fun since you admit it no local will require more ôtime and effortö to pvp. But you seem to think that not requiring this extra time and effort violates some sort of eve natural law. I have to say get over it. There is no such eve natural law. There are several reasons why pilots in this sci fi universe would be able to tap into information without having to constantly mash a button. Stations know this to know if they can dock and when sentry guns should shoot, gates know this to know if they can jump or if the corp aggression timers should require gate guns to shoot. Do I need all the intel? Well standings and the corp are good information to have when you want to avoid getting blobbed. Some corps work together and you start to learn that when you get familiar with an area. If we had a system count alone it would only boost blobbing a little bit at the expense of small gangs and solo. Some systems like Amamake have a huge count. So knowing the absolute numbers alone doesnÆt really help. But why should we boost blobbing even a little bit at the expense of small gangs and solo??? IÆm in favor of mechanics that do the opposite. You end that paragraph saying we should have to spend a little more ôtime and effortö before we do small gang or solo pvp. Again I think the opposite. Mechanics should be in place to reduce the long amounts of time and tedious warping and scanning it takes to find decent pvp. Currently IÆm lucky to get a decent pvp fight every 2 hours of playing. Even with local at times I am warping and scanning around looking for an entire 1.5 hour session and never find one. And youÆre saying it should take more time and tedious effort? I think this is where we just donÆt agree. Eve is really borderline playable due to the length of time it takes to get decent pvp fights. The idea that we should stretch that time out is just crazy. Maybe you have hours and hours in your life to do that now. But someday you may not. And then you too may agree with me that changes that make it take even longer to find decent pvp are bad changes. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.30 15:22:00 - [20] Nuts Nougat I think there are more than a few people posting here who never fly solo or in small gangs so they really donÆt understand how important local is. So I will spell out some of it. I fly in low sec mostly. But I am not trying to avoid pvp, I am tryign to find it. So let me explain how local helps allot: Scenario A (no one in local): With local: I jump into a system. Local says no one is there so I can immediately move to the next system. Without local: I jump into a system. No local so I have no idea if anyone is there. So I go warping to different celestials in a completely futile effort to see if anyone is there. Yay! Fun times! Scenario B (a few wts in local): With local: Lets say I see a few people in local and some war targets. 1) did I already go through this system and see the same people there? If so they are likely just docked up. So I donÆt waste much time. But I hit the dscan see whats out there. If I see something I might fly to likely spots. Oh and did I see large number of war targets in the system I just left? If so I know I am likely dealing with bait. No local: I hit dscan go warping to celestials and if the people are there. They may be there but docked up. I would likely know this if I had local and passed through that system before. But since there is no local e I spend the time warping and scanning around like ninny looking for someone who is docked up. Oh yeah and if I see someone and engage but there was a huge fleet that were holding cloak at the gate I just jumped through so they didnÆt show on my scanner. Unfortunately there was no local so I had no clue they were there. So as soon as I engage they jump through and blob. More fun times. Scenario C (lots of war targets) With local: I see a ton of war targets so I know to stay a few jumps out from them. Or try to get some of their fleet to break off. No local: I donÆt see them because they are either cloaked or holding cloak at a gate. So I attack and they are right there on grid ready to blob! This is just the basic intel you get. If you see a huge blob you can see what corp they are with and also see the names of the pilots from local. That way if you see a pilot that was with the blob later on you know its bait. These problems will happen regardless of whether you are solo or with a small gang. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906

Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.11.30 15:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha I can see you're too in love with her to break up willingly...... I just think changes that further kill off the feasibility to do solo and small gang warfare are bad ideas. Its going in the complete opposite direction of what eve needs. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.12.01 22:30:00 - [22] Nuts Nougat Fair enough I will leave null sec for others to consider. I donÆt fly there so I wonÆt claim to know what is best there. But the op unfortunately included low sec in his proposal which would be an absolute horrible idea. As for those who think few solo pvp I say look at the top pvpers on battleclinic. Look at their kills. About half of them have tons of solo kills. And no they are not fighting badgers. Are there allot more people who in general form big blobs? Sure it is much less challenging to do that û unless you are the fc - and so many people get their feet wet in pvp that way. There is nothing wrong with this. But after a while forming a big blob and shooting wts like fish in a barrel gets old and that is why many veteran players switch over to small gang or solo pvp. Many people will say small gang pvp is the only reason eve online has people play it so long. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.12.01 22:34:00 - [23] Edited by: Cearain on 01/12/2010 22:35:40 Originally by: Infinity Ziona IMO this would make solo much better not worse. It would help me to take out those PvP ships that you like killing so much. It wouldn't be a case of someone seeing me in system in 2 seconds, docking and then posting in alliance "WT in XXX, fleet up". I could engage a PvP fit ship with a scrambler and kill it without there being 10 other ships next to him because the "WT in XXX, fleet up" would only occur when I attacked him. No offense, but you should actually get some experience solo fighting pvp fits before you post about how this mechanic will change things. Fighting a badger is not the same as fighting something/someone who is set up to fight other players. They will have a point and tackle will try to hold you there long enough for their friends to show up. And if there is no local it wonÆt take long at all. Their friends will simply uncloak right on the grid and gank you again and again and again. Also when you see them coming on your scanner you wonÆt be able to just warp off like you can when you fight industrials. You will first have to get out of scram/disruptor range. Chances are you will not be able to do this in time and you will get baited and ganked again and again and again. Your inability to see this makes me think you either donÆt understand how things work for solo or small gang pvp in low sec or you arenÆt really interested in doing pvp with other pvp ships. If you are willing to give up the easy kills you can do solo pvp the same way I and many others do now. DonÆt pretend local is preventing you from doing that. DonÆt try to fool yourself. ItÆs the allure of pvp on easy mode that keeps you fighting pve ships and industrials instead of other pvpers. Like I said for people like yourself that are mainly interested in ôfightingö pve ships and industrials no local probably would be good. But for others who do small gang and solo pvp with others û at least in low sec - this would kill the game. If you want to fight pvp fits you can do it just like I do now. When people are in pvp fits they don't "dock up" as soon as they see a sole war target. They come out to fight. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.12.02 15:29:00 - [24] Originally by: prefectro Originally by: Cearain Like I said for people like yourself that are mainly interested in ôfightingö pve ships and industrials no local probably would be good. But for others who do small gang and solo pvp with others û at least in low sec - this would kill the game. Your view is that of the minority. I join mainly small/medium roaming gangs and many would love to see local in nullsec gone (keep it in low/high sec). ... I don't really care about null sec - I don't fly there. I will leave null sec to others to discuss. I just don't want to see the solo and small gang stuff in low sec go away. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.12.02 15:43:00 - [25] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 02/12/2010 02:32:09 In short, go get a real ship, one that when you lose it, entails real loss, get a KD ratio at least half of mine and then come back and talk to me about soloing. You accuse me of wanting no risk pvp yet you brag about your kill death ratio. You have a good kill death ratio because you are fighting industrials and pve ships. I am not interested in a good kill death ratio. If I was I would indeed do what you do - only fight pve fits and badgers. My point is not to argue about epeen. IÆll be the first to admit I make stupid mistakes all the time. ItÆs just to point out that fighting pvp fit ships is not the same as fighting badgers. You can warp out anytime you want. Seeing someone midwarp on your scanner is enough warning. Moreover when you are fighting a badger you hardly have to do much manual flying so you can just spam the scanner button. Let me spell it out even further: When you fight people who are set up to kill you itÆs a very different type of fight. You have to watch what range you are at . What the transversal is. Where other war targets are on grid. Are you getting neuted? What guns are they using. Are your guns point or prop mod going to burn out? What speeds can your opponent go. Are they shield tanked or armor tanked. Fighting badgers is different. Orbit at 500 turn on your guns and scram. So yeah after you do that you can just sit there spamming the dscan and reading the results. No manual flying no worries at all. If you see something then you can simply warp away. Do you see the difference? ItÆs also ridiculous for you to say you risk less. Unless there is some other killboard I should be looking at according to BC I have lost over 2xs as much isk as you have and my character has about + the skill points and age as yours. That killboard clearly shows you are the one who is going for the safe pvp. If we should be looking at a different one let me know. So your opinions about how removing local will change things for the better really only apply to what you do û fighting industrials and mission runners. I concede that for people like yourself whose main pvp involves ganking pve ships and industrials removing local would be great. But donÆt pretend to talk about how this would effect people who fight in solo or small gangs against others in pvp ships. You simply donÆt do that and therefore donÆt know what you are talking about. BTW I fight in frigates and cruisers so that people will not always run away. I want to pvp so I do the things that help get pvp fast. You want ganks and no risk pvp so you wait around to fight things that canÆt kill you unless you somehow forget to warp to a celestial. ItÆs not the same. And I am not whining I like the game fine as is. YouÆre the one whining that the current mechanics donÆt make it even easier for you to kill industrials and mission runners. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:48:00 - [26] Originally by: Infinity Ziona You missed the part where I said don't get back to me about soloing and risk till you take some risks and actually solo in something that can't warp out in 3 seconds. I don't see that reflected in your latest kills so, get back to me when you measure up. I can see you are getting angry because I am pointing out that your killboard is full of industrials and pve fits. Perhaps that anger is clouding your mind to think a rupture is a frigate. But that is not what I was trying to do. Because you only fight things that have no way to keep you from warping off anytime you wish, your views won't necessarily apply to those who do engage pilots that have pvp fits. I think most people know that what you do û ôfightingö new players (who donÆt even know how to warp their pod out) in industrials and pve fits - is pvp safe mode. Claiming its not is pretty silly. You will learn this if you ever choose to actually fight people in pvp fits. Until that time comes, you will continue to foolishly beat your chest with your courageous badger kills. BTW: something you may not know (because you never fight ships that have a point) is that even if your ship has a fast align time you wonÆt be able to warp out if you are pointed. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.12.02 23:09:00 - [27] Originally by: Infinity Ziona I'm not getting angry at all. I simply believe you are incorrect in your assumption that PvP requires a consensual duel between 2 frigates. . What does dueling have to do with local? You can duel with or without local and it doesnÆt matter. If you think all fw fights are agreed duels you really donÆt know what youÆre talking about. Originally by: Infinity Ziona I typically war declare alliances of several hundred people or more. These alliances contain not only pve corps but also pvp corps. .. .. You claim you are fighting pvp corps but when you look at your 12 most recent victims on you api verified Battleclinic killboard how many kills do they have? Only one of the 12 victims has a single kill! That is right 11 of the 12 never had even a single kill! And the one guy who does have a kill has only a single kill. You claim you are fighting pvp corps but your killboard shows you havenÆt killed a single ship with a point in over a year and a half! Anyone can see your api verified battleclinic killboard. So who are you trying to kid? Originally by: Infinity Ziona I think its foolish for you to think that because a ship doesn't have a point on it that there's no need to pay attention to traversal or speed or range. That's rubbish. .. You need to practice reading. I said you just need to set your orbit and activate your scram and guns when you are ôfightingö a badger. Other than pods (again a sign that you are killing new players) you have killed more industrials than any other ship class! I see you recently killed a badger in a proteus. Let me ask how did you do it?? When you overheating your guns to overcome that small shield booster were you afraid they would burn out? Were you watching your range and transversal? Did you keep a careful on his speed in case he tried to blind you with his mining laser? Moreover, I am not derailing the thread in pointing this out. I am making the important point that sure if you are just fighting a badger you can sit there spamming the dscan and reading the results during the fight checking to see if company is coming. Hell you can read the newspaper. If you ever got in a fight where people are actually fit to try to kill you, you would see things arenÆt so leisurely. The automatic local would be appreciated much more to avoid getting blobbed. Yes removing local will help people like yourself whose solo work consists of ganking new players in pve ships industrials and mining barges. But that type of combat is really quite different than fighting other pvpers. For people who fly solo and small gangs against pilots with ships fit to kill other players removing local would be disastrous. It would take forever to find a fight and when you did find one it would almost always end with the solo or small gang getting blobbed. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.12.03 15:00:00 - [28] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Your posts consist entirely of self serving "I don't want to get jumped while dueling in my frigate". Thats too bad, duel in Rens at undock. Dueling has nothing to do with local. You can duel with local or without local. My posts have made it clear that 1) You almost exclusively "pvp" against new players in industrials mining barges and pve ships. 2)You don't understand anything about the game outside of that. 3)You lie about how you pvp to try to lend support to this bad idea And 4) that although no local would be good for griefers like you, it would suck for majority of pilots who like challenging small gang and solo pvp. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.12.03 18:22:00 - [29] Originally by: Ephemeron I said it before and I'll say it again: A compromise can be reached. Let CCP add new 0.0 NPC regions without local. I say NPC regions so they can be available to anyone in EVE, not just the mega alliances. At same time, make Scanner dynamic, update automatically and allow it to be optionally merged with Overview. That way people on both sides can be satisfied. Well I'm not too keen on ccp wasting time developing a new scanner that basically does the same thing local does, except maybe require us to incessantly click a button. There are plenty of things they can do to actually improve the game. But certainly if they want to create some new systems that do not have local that is fine by me. That way small gang and solo pvp wonÆt be ruined in the current systems. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.12.05 03:19:00 - [30] Originally by: Ariel Nova I don't PvP, however .... Then why do you care about this issue? Do you have any war decs your dealing with? Do you fly places other than high sec? It seems to me local changes only effect people who pvp. If you're in a non war decced corp and only in high sec there is no need to even have local showing. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906

Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.12.05 03:25:00 - [31] Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Originally by: Solid Prefekt Your overview is instant, so why can't the scanner do the same. This would then change the all seeing eye local to a 14 AU range scan. Much more realistic and adds some much needed risk in nullsec. I'm quoting the best idea in this thread... This is almost never enough time to escape blobs if you are already in a pvp fight. As for pvers it might be needed for null sec I donÆt know. But for low sec we really donÆt need something to drive even more pvers out. Most people think the risk versus reward in low sec is already heavy risk versus little reward. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.12.06 15:09:00 - [32] Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Originally by: Cearain This is almost never enough time to escape blobs if you are already in a pvp fight. As for pvers it might be needed for null sec I donÆt know. But for low sec we really donÆt need something to drive even more pvers out. Most people think the risk versus reward in low sec is already heavy risk versus little reward. 14 AU for most ships is 4 to 5 seconds warp - not counting the annoying time of "coming out of warp" which is usually another 3 seconds. That's enough time for frigates and cruisers to get out all things being equal. The size of each ship's AU scan can be played with. Give Frigates a 10 AU scan range. Cruiser and BC? 14 AU. Give BS a 20 AU scan. The idea itself is sound. Low Sec needs alot of love in and of itself. There's alot that could be done with it that simply isn't. And it needs it's own thread to really give the topic justice. Ok I will just address how this particular idea will likely kill the best thing about low sec. That is low sec is the easiest place to find solo and small gang pvp. What do you mean ômost shipsö will arrive in 4-5 seconds. IsnÆt the only relevant question - how long will the interceptors that are in the blob take arrive? Once they arrive it doesnÆt really matter that the Battlships will arrive 2 seconds later. Morover consider that your reaction time is still likely to take at least a second. So you are looking at under 3-4 seconds of actually doing what you want to get away ôfor most shipsö. For interceptors forget about it. Every ship you take on you might as well just self destruct. Currently if you take some bait its still very hard to escape a blob even with local . But if you start to move in one direction they may not warp directly on top of you so you may even have some time after fill up local. Especially if the gate they come in is far away. The game currently favors blobs in the extreme local gives solo and small gangs some albeit small chances. Nobody has addressed the fact that no local will mean much of your eve time will be spent scanning empty systems in low sec. And then when you do find someone and attack there is a good chance you will find a bunch of other ships on grid uncloaking. In sum every time this topic is discussed it comes down to taking away local and changing the scanner to create something that is pretty much just like local. At worst these ideas will further kill off small gang and solo pvp. At best this just seems to be asking ccp to do allot of busywork. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.12.07 03:45:00 - [33] Originally by: Nuts Nougat Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 06/12/2010 15:47:41 Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 06/12/2010 15:46:37 It takes a good 10 seconds, not 3 as someone said before to decelerate out of warp,. .... I donÆt think you have this right. Originally by: Nuts Nougat Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 06/12/2010 15:47:41 Edit2: About people uncloaking next to bait, this also already happens. Cerain, what you are saying currently is: "I will not engage anyone, as long as there's anyone else in local". If this is true then yes, local going away must be hard for you. For everyone else, it's a good thing though. Response to edit 2: No I donÆt usually attack people when there are a bunch from their corp in local (unless I know they base there so most are just docked up). That just seems dumb. Perhaps in null sec there are many more people there where you would have to do that. Low sec that would be dumb. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2010.12.07 16:05:00 - [34] Originally by: Nuts Nougat Originally by: Cearain Gatecamping is boring, wormholes take several hours a day to find a populated one. Several hours I don't usually have. Several hours of probing is more boring than gatecamping too, after the first 2 times when it's still new. Therefore all I do on my main is either roam 0.0 and hope to meet another gang, or gatecamp a well-traveled gate in lowsec. I agree with you here. But don't you think these wormholes are empty of pvers in part because there is no local? No local means its easier to get ganked while pveing and this means fewer pvers. I canÆt agree more with the several hours of probing being more boring that a gatecamp. So why make us probe around everywhere in eve? Just to be clear, I see nothing wrong with pirating and killing pve ships. I am just saying that although no local or limiting local is good for that activity (In the short run only. I think in the long run it will mean fewer targets for you) itÆs not good for small gangs or solo pilots who fight other pvpers. It is however, bad for people who pvp agaisnt other pvp ships. This is because the when you are fighting other pvp ships you are usually pointed and so you canÆt just warp off when you see someone on scan. I do fly cruisers and frigates so that I donÆt have to worry about getting killed too much. I mean I fit my ships so that I can afford to lose them but itÆs not like I completely donÆt care. If I didnÆt care at all I would not play the game-it wouldnÆt be exciting. But itÆs not only the loss of isk. It is also a pia to have to go podding back to get another ship fit. Only to find the mods you need arenÆt on the market etc. So I do try to avoid getting blobbed and IÆd rather have my combat log fill up with kills instead of losses. IÆm not trying to be dramatic, but if local goes away I really think this would just lead to all of low sec becoming ôblobs online.ö Finding fights would just take much longer than it is already. The thought of having to using a probe launcher or an alt to do this sounds really tedious. How I currently like to play small gang and solo would be eliminated. Imo it would really make eve suck. So far the only people who support this idea either 1) donÆt pvp at all so of course they donÆt care about local or 2) would like this so it would be easier to catch pve ships, industrials, or mining ships. But for anyone who likes small gang or solo pvp against ships that may be pvp fit, nerfing local would clearly suck. -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906

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