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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:02:00 -
[1]
The Fifth Council of Stellar Management has written a very extensive blog on the work they have been doing and the status of CSM items in the backlog. You can read all about it here.
Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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Qujulome
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:18:00 -
[2]
progress is progress |
Dan Kaneda
Sense of Serendipity Echoes of Nowhere
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:20:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Dan Kaneda on 17/09/2010 15:24:06 T3 refitting ? drone reconnection ? Rocket fix ?
Epic expansion incoming if those make it to the release
EDIT : Also, probes in the overview \o/
EDIT 2 : In before chribba too :D
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:20:00 -
[4]
\o/ In before Chribba.
Looks good so far.
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Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:24:00 -
[5]
:D
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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SIEGE RED
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:28:00 -
[6]
So, in short the CSM have moved on from it being just a fun trip to a realisation that if you want to get stuff done by CCP you're going to have to do it step by step. And each step, you pretty much have to put everything on the table and shine a lot of light on it for CCP to look at it.
Well, it does look like this CSM 5 has made a lot of headway with that. Results tangible for everyone obviously pending, but hey, this is CCP they have to deal with
Good blog tbh. I'm obviously a little frustrated that while this CSM has managed to get through to CCP far more then any previous CSM (seems like treating like serious business works better then facebook or the bar) and I can see that stuff is starting to move.
Now let's hope CCP sees ways to understand the benefits of capitalising on constructive feedback processes, and that this CSM and the next continue to take on the tasks as serious business. |
Grideris
Gallente Fleet Coordination Commission
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:29:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Grideris on 17/09/2010 15:29:49 Balanced rockets? Reconnecting to drones? Different AB and MWD icons? In my EVE?
Also IB4C.
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:34:00 -
[8]
Quote: CCP's willingness to permit the CSM backlog to be made public was a pleasant surprise for the CSM, and we hope for more pleasant surprises in the future.
I'm very interested in this little bit, especially considering the other bits written about focusing on updating the CSM Wiki pages.
Question(s):
- Is there an estimated time of release for the public version of the backlog?
I'm concerned about the delivery of this as previous requests for the backlog seemed to indicated significant turnaround time for CSM to receive a list. I do not have the original source but the statements from CCP indicated a release date coinciding with the December summit (at the time, five months).
- With the pending release of this information, will the CSM Wiki items finally receive their much needed "Issue ID" tags?
- Moving forward with the remaining CSM term and future CSM iterations, does the CSM or CCP have suggestions or tools in the works to further the efforts of the CSM candidacy (past and present)? Of particular interest would be the tagging of items in the patch notes themselves or even a streamlined method of proposal submission.
- Does the CSM/CCP have any interest in player-created tools which may assist in decreasing the workload the CSM faces when sifting through the Assembly Hall? One potential solution that comes to mind is Nebula, put forward by a collection of pilots on irc.coldfront.net #excellence, with Ix_Forres, Markurid, Seleene and a handful of other like minded pilots.
- Would the CSM consider releasing blogs of this scale/content in the future on a regular basis, for example every three months?
I'm exited for the future. Though there's lots of work to do, baby steps are required before sprinting. Keep it up!
Sincerely,
JW
Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:35:00 -
[9]
Interesting, and thank you CSM for that.
/c
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:37:00 -
[10]
Interesting list. Also interesting prioritisation there. I will admit that there is progress in waking CCP up in a few places, that is visible, but I had hoped for getting through to some points of perception that have recently demonstrated to be at the heart of so many issues.
On the positive side, if the winter expansion shows CCP can even not push such a restricted list, the recent media coverage and community communications can probably be considered smooth sailing before the storm in comparison Especially since what the expansion will really deliver and what follows when and what's in it. |
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AXE LEEII
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:37:00 -
[11]
Edited by: AXE LEEII on 17/09/2010 15:40:01 I appreciate the CSM5s idea of being able to reconnect with Drones after logout, but.....
-I'd also like to see my Drones correct optimal in Drones Attributes when using mods.
-I'd like it possible to see my control range for Drones
-I'd like to see the control range removed from Sentries, as these are right next to me, so the control range is actually +/- 2000m
-And, if possible, some Drone related Implants.
Not much, Thx
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Silvana Wisla
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:37:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Silvana Wisla on 17/09/2010 15:38:40 I pray every night that learning skills are removed, please make this happen ; ) Everything else looks great.
BC From this moment on = before Cribba
^^ dam
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:44:00 -
[13]
Darn it, didn't beat Chribba!!!
In the approximately 14 short weeks (YES ONLY 14! Even if it has sometimes seemed like 114!) since CSM5 has taken its seat, we have definitely seen a big improvement in communications with CCP and their willingness to collaborate in productive ways. It's a solid start...much work left to do, of course. But it's good progress...and I can't stress enough how much of that progress is the cumulative result of work done by all CSMs, not just CSM5. This is--as has been observed by others--a process...Rome wasn't built in a day. But we are getting there.
I'm pretty excited about the October meeting, to see what we learn there and how the "face to face" CSM/CCP relationship has evolved since June.
Thanks to all the CSM members who contributed to this blog and for the CCP folks who have engaged with us thus far.
Life In Low Sec |
Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Johnathan Walker
- Is there an estimated time of release for the public version of the backlog?
As you point out, that release is scheduled to be done by December. So it may take a while still. However, in the meantime (as we've seen in this blog), CCP can release information to us about backlog items that have been included in sprints.
Originally by: Johnathan Walker
- With the pending release of this information, will the CSM Wiki items finally receive their much needed "Issue ID" tags?
Basically, the secretary of CSM 1 (Ankhesemtapemka) made an issue template in the spring of 2008, which included an issue ID. While in theory a potentially very useful attribute, we never really used it and just referred to issues by their name rather than their number/ID. The fact that future templates have retained the Issue ID attribute is a hold over from the old template I suspect.
Depending on the information CCP can make public to us, we'll either have to update the issues to include a proper ID, or remove the attribute alltogether.
While we're on the subject of the wiki - we're in the middle of going through all the CSM issues to make sure they are on the wiki and properly categorised (Resolved issues vs. Issues in Process). I know CSM1 and CSM3 are finished (because I did those :D), and CSM2 and CSM4 are being worked on at the moment.
Originally by: Johnathan Walker
- Moving forward with the remaining CSM term and future CSM iterations, does the CSM or CCP have suggestions or tools in the works to further the efforts of the CSM candidacy (past and present)? Of particular interest would be the tagging of items in the patch notes themselves or even a streamlined method of proposal submission.
Tagging items in the patch notes is something we have discussed - but this requires items in CCPs backlog to be properly tagged as 'CSM items'. This was not the case, but our friendly CCP Dev Xhagen is working on resolving that :)
Originally by: Johnathan Walker
- Does the CSM/CCP have any interest in player-created tools which may assist in decreasing the workload the CSM faces when sifting through the Assembly Hall? One potential solution that comes to mind is Nebula, put forward by a collection of pilots on irc.coldfront.net #excellence, with Ix_Forres, Markurid, Seleene and a handful of other like minded pilots.
Yes - we discussed this with CCP and made a list of our wishes and desires. However, there is still a difference between talking about it and actually making it (specifically, having the time and resources to make it). But is is definately something that could improve the process a lot
Originally by: Johnathan Walker
- Would the CSM consider releasing blogs of this scale/content in the future on a regular basis, for example every three months?
Yes, we've currently planned for... three more blogs I think, with about 2 months between each blog.
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:53:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mynxee Rome wasn't built in a day. But we are getting there.
Maybe not, but Nero sure burnt it down in a day!
Originally by: Mynxee
Thanks to all the CSM members who contributed to this blog and for the CCP folks who have engaged with us thus far.
And thank you to CSM members for sticking it out amid the differences of opinion and + personal trifes; it can't be easy all the time but so far, happy with the results. It's nice to see people working hard and being vocal, along with some "mom" looks to keep the others in line Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:55:00 -
[16]
I promised Mynxee and Trebor to come over and rabble about this blog. So here goes:
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE ...
Seriously though, good blog. I'm glad CCP (now) also see that communication on this level is a positive way forward with corresponding results, and I do hope they keep moving forward in this direction. It is something that does means 'extra' work, but utilising the evident commitment of the CSM and the players they represent will have benefits far beyond what can be achieved by mere product marketing and PR. Clearly, this is not the time to rest on laurels ...
Naturally, compared to the long long list build up over several CSMs, the current list is somewhat short, with not enough musts and too many coulds. But the hope is that CCP has erred on the save side here, and that hopefully most of the coulds will be eventually get deployed next expansion anyway.
Having said that, this is clearly a step forward, and hopefully one that will be build on for next expansions, CSMs and iterations. More importantly there is a process of communication back-and-forth in place now which makes this far more transparent for everyone involved. There is still room for improvement, as there always is, and I do hope that the CSM will get their place at the stakeholder's table in person, but this is non-the-less a big improvement over the old situation.
Finally, I want to thank CCP and especially the CSM for publishing this blog. There is no small risk involved in doing so, so well done ...
Furthermore:
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE ... Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist |
Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:02:00 -
[17]
Originally by: SIEGE RED I'm obviously a little frustrated that while this CSM has managed to get through to CCP far more then any previous CSM
I think it cannot be emphasized enough that without the hard work done by CSM1-4, CSM5 would not be in a position to make significant progress. And yes, working to figure out how to maximize the benefits of the process for both the players and CCP is a big part of what we're trying to do.
Originally by: "Johnathan Walker" Is there an estimated time of release for the public version of the backlog?
Sorry for the confusion: these are the items in the CSM backlog that CCP is working to implement for the Winter Expansion. Note the caveat that this is not a 100% guarantee that all of these things will make it -- this is what they are trying to do.
I will defer to others in the CSM regarding your process questions, except to say that I am generally in favor of building tools as long as the cost-benefit is there, and as long as they are player-built, as I would not support diverting CCP resources to building CSM tools.
Originally by: "Johnathan Walker" Would the CSM consider releasing blogs of this scale/content in the future on a regular basis, for example every three months?
I would expect that there will be regular updates from the CSM, if there is sufficient interest.
AXE LEEII: regarding your drone requests, you should consider putting up an Assembly Hall thread to gather drone-related ideas that CSM can consider and put in-process to CCP.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
CCP can release information to us about backlog items that have been included in sprints.
Awesome, looking forward to it!
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Tagging items in the patch notes is something we have discussed - but this requires items in CCPs backlog to be properly tagged as 'CSM items'. This was not the case, but our friendly CCP Dev Xhagen is working on resolving that :)
- Am I correct in interpreting that CSM-submitted issues were not properly documented, which may have contributed to previously mentioned delays in the release of requested information? Hooray for resolution work going on in the meantime, though! Any plans to prevent this from occurring in the future, perhaps by interfacing with existing software/procedures at CCP's office(s)?
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
However, there is still a difference between talking about it and actually making it (specifically, having the time and resources to make it). But is is definately something that could improve the process a lot.
- Sounds like something that the player community can help with; maybe getting in touch with those fine folks mentioned and committing to a long-term plan?
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Yes, we've currently planned for... three more blogs I think, with about 2 months between each blog.
Excellent! Looking forward to it!
Thanks for the answers to the questions DV; highly appreciated! Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:09:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Johnathan Walker
- Regarding the Wiki, does the CSM or CCP have thoughts or ideas on better management/administration? Of particular concern would be how players could participate, much like the existing model of WikiPedia for edits/submissions/corrections.
- Does the CSM/CCP have any interest in player-created tools which may assist in decreasing the workload the CSM faces when sifting through the Assembly Hall? One potential solution that comes to mind is Nebula, put forward by a collection of pilots on irc.coldfront.net #excellence, with Ix_Forres, Makurid, Seleene and a handful of other like minded pilots.
Due to work deadlines today, I don't have time to address all your questions, JW, but wanted to touch on these two.
CSM has been discussing various approaches to better wiki maintenance...it's a big project all by itself, with lots of concerns and questions. I'm working on the CSM2 issue updates right now...got a bunch sorted, a bunch yet to go.
Having been involved with the Nebula initiative led by Ix Forres, I want to publicly thank everyone involved for the very professional efforts undertaken on that project so far. I hope we can find a way/reason to continue it, as there is a serious need for a tool (and adopting processes that are augmented by the use of such a tool). I hope we get a chance to discuss this in Iceland in October...if so, it'd be nice to show CCP and the rest of CSM screenshots of the Nebula project to demonstrate the amount of work has been done.
In my view, the EVE community is a gigantic brain trust and powerhouse that could do TONS to support CSM work and thereby become active agents of change alongside the CSM. I think all quality efforts in that regard should be encouraged -- especially by CCP.
Life In Low Sec |
Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:13:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Johnathan Walker - Am I correct in interpreting that CSM-submitted issues were not properly documented, which may have contributed to previously mentioned delays in the release of requested information?
Depends on your definition of 'properly documented' :P
As we understand it, the CSM issues were entered into CCP's backlog in exactly the same way as all other proposals and issues were entered in the backlog. This means that although our issues are in there, they are not easily identifyable as being a 'CSM issue'. It's that CSM tag that CCP Xhagen is working on.
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy Spreadsheets Online
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:21:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Jason Edwards on 17/09/2010 16:24:37 another csm blog..
Everyone repeat after me. THE CSM IS GOOD. THE CSM IS AWESOME.
How does the saying go?
ôIf you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."
hmm seems to be turning out true? ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:26:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mynxee
CSM has been discussing various approaches to better wiki maintenance...it's a big project all by itself, with lots of concerns and questions. I'm working on the CSM2 issue updates right now...got a bunch sorted, a bunch yet to go.
Awesome, glad to see the hard work already. Looking forward to hearing about the new procedures, in due time of course!
Originally by: Mynxee
Having been involved with the Nebula initiative led by Ix Forres, I want to publicly thank everyone involved for the very professional efforts undertaken on that project so far. I hope we can find a way/reason to continue it, as there is a serious need for a tool (and adopting processes that are augmented by the use of such a tool). I hope we get a chance to discuss this in Iceland in October...if so, it'd be nice to show CCP and the rest of CSM screenshots of the Nebula project to demonstrate the amount of work has been done.
=grin= Any ideas about encouraging other CSM members to come participate in discussion? We would greatly value their feedback and any requirements.
Originally by: Mynxee
In my view, the EVE community is a gigantic brain trust and powerhouse that could do TONS to support CSM work and thereby become active agents of change alongside the CSM. I think all quality efforts in that regard should be encouraged -- especially by CCP.
Agreed; free Quafe for all? Should be fun hearing about October's meeting; sounds like there's going to be a lot of jabbering and swapping of ideas.
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Depends on your definition of 'properly documented' :P
As we understand it, the CSM issues were entered into CCP's backlog in exactly the same way as all other proposals and issues were entered in the backlog. This means that although our issues are in there, they are not easily identifyable as being a 'CSM issue'. It's that CSM tag that CCP Xhagen is working on.
Ah some clarification then....
In short, there was some contained concern that the items weren't even *in* the backlog to begin with and instead lay on someone's bar-napkin left over from the last Fan Fest. Of course, this might have been due mostly to being left in the dark about the work ongoing by CSM members and CCP staff; it wasn't clear to us via the wiki ID tag or meeting minutes as to how CCP was tracking these things. A few initiatives by some players further added to this fire of doubt; we could not figure out what the delay was.
Of course, mashing CSM requests into the massive monster of other goodies would be a great explanation, particularly if they were not tagged. :) I'd be happy to help wherever needed; CSM has a lot on their plate already!
Give Xhagen a wet sloppy kiss from me for his/her efforts
=verrrryyy happy and excited= Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:26:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 16:32:44 Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 16:30:50 Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 16:30:30
Originally by: Jason Edwards
another csm blog..
The previous CSM blog was the one posted at the end of the CSM3 term. I'm sure we haven't been overdoing it :P
Originally by: Jonathan Walker We would greatly value their feedback and any requirements.
I wasn't even aware that actual development had happened/was happening, but I'm assuming mynxee showed you the photo of the lists we made on a whiteboard in Reykjavik in June (or perhaps a nicely formatted list). That list contained all the desires and requirements from the CSM.
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Katilyn Swin
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:27:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jason Edwards Edited by: Jason Edwards on 17/09/2010 16:24:37 another csm blog..
Everyone repeat after me. THE CSM IS GOOD. THE CSM IS AWESOME.
How does the saying go?
ôIf you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."
hmm seems to be turning out true?
trolololo 1/10
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Caphelo
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:31:00 -
[25]
Fixing hybrids doesn't even rate a "Won't," FEEL THE LOVE FOR GALLENTE BABY!!
Good blog though, keep it up.
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Mieryn Caval
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:35:00 -
[26]
Quote: As the new features of the Winter expansion (and in particular, CSM-related items) are deployed for testing, your feedback is essential.
It's always essential, and usually ignored. Different this time, you say? Ok.
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:39:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal I wasn't even aware that actual development had happened/was happening, but I'm assuming mynxee showed you the photo of the lists we made on a whiteboard in Reykjavik in June (or perhaps a nicely formatted list). That list contained all the desires and requirements from the CSM.
Really? I mentioned this project a few meetings ago, in the Other Business part of the agenda (maybe you weren't present at that meeting, though). I am sure I posted the link to the project site either via our mailing list or in our forums, can't recall atm. Maybe both. But here's the link again for easy reference.
Life In Low Sec |
TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:48:00 -
[28]
This is a very positive first step.
Are CSM totally happy with the selected issues? Well we took them from the Assembly hall where players raised them and passed them to CCP so yes, we (collectively) wanted to see these changes. Of course we would also like many other items looked at in a reasonable timeframe and players are always raising new issues to be pushed to CCP. With 6 months left in office we're certainly not done yet
Special thanks to all the players who raised, commented and voted on Assembly Hall proposals and those that contribute to the discussions in the Jita Park Speakers Corner.
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:54:00 -
[29]
Whatever else happens during CSM5's tenure, they got sort by meta done, so CSM5 is a success in my book. Anything else that is accomplished is icing on the cake.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Wacoede
Amarr Swag Co. Sandbox Bullies
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:55:00 -
[30]
Quote: Could: As a Player, I can see the meta level of items in a column in item detail list views, so that I can easily get an overview of the quality of the items in the list.
that one item has justified my faith in the CSM
as a mission runner I do get a lot of crap so being able to quickly sort out the good stuff is gonna be a huge bonus
a big TY to Dierdra Vaal for raising it and to all the CSM for supporting it ___________________________________________________
Originally by: Avery Fatwallet when someone sez "eve is too tuff" standard reply is "can i have stuff?"
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:57:00 -
[31]
Also, the forum timer is only 2 minutes now and checking fittings without having to board the ship led me to do a happy dance.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:59:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Originally by: Jonathan Walker We would greatly value their feedback and any requirements.
I wasn't even aware that actual development had happened/was happening, but I'm assuming mynxee showed you the photo of the lists we made on a whiteboard in Reykjavik in June (or perhaps a nicely formatted list). That list contained all the desires and requirements from the CSM.
Yes, we did receive quite a lot of feedback regarding the initial desires/wishes though ongoing feedback would be great. I don't have the specifics but I know development has stopped due to lack of CSM feedback/interest. We're waiting on you folks
Originally by: Mynxee
Really? I mentioned this project a few meetings ago, in the Other Business part of the agenda (maybe you weren't present at that meeting, though). I am sure I posted the link to the project site either via our mailing list or in our forums, can't recall atm. Maybe both. But here's the link again for easy reference.
http://teadaze.net/csm5/CSM5_Meeting_006_Raw_Log.txt
Quote: [ 18:16:51 ] Mynxee > work on the CSM issue categorization tool by Ix Forres is proceeding.
Hope that helps for backtracking to the conversation Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:09:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 17:09:15 I remember that but I thought it just meant progress in determining requirements, not actual development.
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Leovarian Lavitz
Minmatar Ghost Tribal Credit Union Sspectre
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:12:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Leovarian Lavitz on 17/09/2010 17:15:24
Originally by: AXE LEEII Edited by: AXE LEEII on 17/09/2010 15:40:01 I appreciate the CSM5s idea of being able to reconnect with Drones after logout, but.....
-I'd also like to see my Drones correct optimal in Drones Attributes when using mods.
-I'd like it possible to see my control range for Drones
-I'd like to see the control range removed from Sentries, as these are right next to me, so the control range is actually +/- 2000m
-And, if possible, some Drone related Implants.
Not much, Thx
Sentries work off of your ship's distance relative to your target.If the control range was only 2000m, they couldn't shoot at whatever you are shooting at.
Soo, if you had a set of warden IIs 150 km from your target, and you are opposite the target by your drone control range, 80 km, your sentries would start shooting at it if you give the command, even though you are 230 km from your sentries
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Caphelo
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:22:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Leovarian Lavitz Edited by: Leovarian Lavitz on 17/09/2010 17:15:24
Originally by: AXE LEEII Edited by: AXE LEEII on 17/09/2010 15:40:01 I appreciate the CSM5s idea of being able to reconnect with Drones after logout, but.....
-I'd also like to see my Drones correct optimal in Drones Attributes when using mods.
-I'd like it possible to see my control range for Drones
-I'd like to see the control range removed from Sentries, as these are right next to me, so the control range is actually +/- 2000m
-And, if possible, some Drone related Implants.
Not much, Thx
Sentries work off of your ship's distance relative to your target.If the control range was only 2000m, they couldn't shoot at whatever you are shooting at.
Soo, if you had a set of warden IIs 150 km from your target, and you are opposite the target by your drone control range, 80 km, your sentries would start shooting at it if you give the command, even though you are 230 km from your sentries
Which is exactly NOT the way it should be. Drone "CONTROL" range implies that you need to be within that range of your drones to control them. Since you are (almost) always within 2k of your sentries, you should be able to command them to fire on targets 250km away and they should do it (whether or not they can hit them at that range is beside the point).
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:23:00 -
[36]
Oh my... POS gunners getting alerts, a rocket rebalance, *and* sort by meta? What, do you guys think this is a Christmas expansion or something?
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:23:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 17/09/2010 17:24:13
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 17:09:15 I remember that but I thought it just meant progress in determining requirements, not actual development.
All the more reason to come join us in IRC; we don't bite... hard.
Originally by: Liang Nuren Oh my... POS gunners getting alerts, a rocket rebalance, *and* sort by meta? What, do you guys think this is a Christmas expansion or something?
-Liang
It *is* a winter expansion... Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Caiman Graystock
Caldari Starways Congress
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:29:00 -
[38]
Kudos to the CSM for their hard work (past and present) and kudos to CCP for allowing this whole 'experiment' to prosper and develop into an effective channel of communication between players and developers.
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NARDAC
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:32:00 -
[39]
Looks like the player bases (well deserved) little hissie fit worked!
Many of the items in tha list of being worked on sound great. Different icon for MWD, meta level in detail list of inventory, rename a ship without it being the active ship, and many more.
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London
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.09.17 18:01:00 -
[40]
Wait, all those fixes and huge list of CSM backlogged issues and nothing about fixing Blasters/Rails/Hybrids? Le' sigh... at least buffing active tanks is in the backlog...
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Vuk Lau
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Posted - 2010.09.17 18:23:00 -
[41]
I need to point that as someone who was in CSM2, CSM3, had close RL friend in CSM4 and now CSM5 that this huge progress CSM achieved from day zero is combined effort by everyone from CSM1 to this administration. Also huge props for CCP Xhagen for having vision for such project, and pushing hard (tho this is easy for him he has 120kg before lunch) all the time.
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.09.17 18:32:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Mynxee on 17/09/2010 18:33:59
Originally by: Vuk Lau I need to point that as someone who was in CSM2, CSM3, had close RL friend in CSM4 and now CSM5 that this huge progress CSM achieved from day zero is combined effort by everyone from CSM1 to this administration.
Yup...that point was made in the blog twice and by other CSMs in this thread. The impact of continuity and each CSM laying groundwork for the next is a very important factor and key to the success of the concept as a whole.
Life In Low Sec |
SIEGE RED
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Posted - 2010.09.17 18:33:00 -
[43]
Edited by: SIEGE RED on 17/09/2010 18:33:55
Originally by: Vuk Lau I need to point that as someone who was in CSM2, CSM3, had close RL friend in CSM4 and now CSM5 that this huge progress CSM achieved from day zero is combined effort by everyone from CSM1 to this administration.
Lol.
No really.
Bit early to start the politics again isn't it. |
T'Amber
Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.09.17 18:51:00 -
[44]
Dammit Chribba!
[SoE:X]
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.09.17 18:55:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Bagehi Whatever else happens during CSM5's tenure, they got sort by meta done, so CSM5 is a success in my book. Anything else that is accomplished is icing on the cake.
My goodness, you are easily satisfied. I guess we should tell CCP that the heat is off, and they can cancel plans to implement <redacted>, <censored> and (alas, my favorite) <deleted>.
In all honesty, like everyone, I would like the CSM items list to be longer, and full of bigger stuff. But as a realist, I have to say "OK, so far so good, learn how to work the process better, work to get a better list next time, and build the institutional knowledge so that CSM6 can hit the ground running."
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
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Erik Finnegan
Gallente Polytechnique Gallenteenne
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Posted - 2010.09.17 18:58:00 -
[46]
I'm impressed. Impressed, I am. |
Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.09.17 19:04:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow In all honesty, like everyone, I would like the CSM items list to be longer, and full of bigger stuff. But as a realist, I have to say "OK, so far so good, learn how to work the process better, work to get a better list next time, and build the institutional knowledge so that CSM6 can hit the ground running."
Well, we'll have to see what can get put into the pipeline for the next Dev Planning cycle
Life In Low Sec |
Vir Hellnamin
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.09.17 19:20:00 -
[48]
Small good stuff the WExpansion awesomewinsauce? -- "Entering MH means instant death. It's worse than 0.0. Even the asteroids shoot back." - Alex Harumichi [GRD]
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Vuk Lau
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Posted - 2010.09.17 19:22:00 -
[49]
Originally by: SIEGE RED Bit early to start the politics again isn't it.
Its 19:00, not early for sure.
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SIEGE RED
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Posted - 2010.09.17 19:58:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Vuk Lau
Originally by: SIEGE RED Bit early to start the politics again isn't it.
Its 19:00, not early for sure.
Get to work man You're losing your touch, you can be much better at this
Serious though, previous CSM's were experiments, even though some people did put in a lot of time they were a case of what players tend to write off as the free trip to iceland. Doesn't matter whether it is accurate behind the scenes, it's a perception problem.
That is why this CSM 5 stands out so much. I'm not sure which one of you hit it off with taking it as serious business and effectively treating it as such. Maybe it was a few of y'all, but it's given an approach which is interestingly capable of doing what CSM really is about.
Less fun? Yeah. But that is good. Ups the ante. And that is needed. |
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Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2010.09.17 20:01:00 -
[51]
Big thanks to the members of the current csm and to those before. Your effort and time invested to make Eve a better game are much appreciated.
Thanks to CCP for actually commiting to such a community feature - beyond some RP stunt.
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Vuk Lau
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Posted - 2010.09.17 20:01:00 -
[52]
Originally by: SIEGE RED
Originally by: Vuk Lau
Originally by: SIEGE RED Bit early to start the politics again isn't it.
Its 19:00, not early for sure.
Get to work man You're losing your touch, you can be much better at this
True :D Today is not my day.
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Mark726
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.09.17 20:12:00 -
[53]
Seriously, props to the CSM with their hard work. I'm glad to see that all the foundation laying and work from the previous CSMs is finally paying off.
And, personally, I'm excited about aligning to BM, viewing fittings of ships when not in them, and about finally getting probes to show on the overview. Great work guys, I can't wait to see what else you have in store :-D ----
I'm playing Eve and I'm Still Alive
EVE Travel |
Yeay Fritg
Caldari Confrerie de Kaedri Cluster Of Rebirth
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Posted - 2010.09.17 20:37:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 17/09/2010 20:45:11 CSM & CCP,
Tank you for this Blog.
CSM, thank you for your work to make CCP consider it's player base view.
I feel it's may be the start of a true CSM/CCPcommon work.
CCP, thank you for this cosmetics chance costing not so mutch on the Dev Team time.
Sad day for the Winter Expansion if only these are in the expansion ! Sad if it will cost you 3 months do so so few !
You have three months works, a meeting in June and the main major bug is Rocket ?
My englsih is not so good, tell me if I miss a point and I will apologizie you all if it's the case but :
- What about the Backlog Status ? - What about existing Bug Status ? - Will Dominion work as announced one day ? - Will CCP commit on a change ? - When will you adress Bug and not tower mail redirection issues ? (This one cost a SQL request to add To people on a list, takes me 5 minutes.)
CCP sad to understand that you think we are all IT Technical illetrate !
Don't you think some of your players can buil IT planning and are aware of true development cost and time ?
If it's all your Dev team can do in 3 months it's a shame. I feel it's not, I feel your Direction once again want to maintain the paying player base by launching big words in the air ...only.
What's else in the expansion ?
CCP, How many people are working on this Expansion people ?
1, 2 or 3 ?
It seems that 3 Sprints to do to close the whole list of Bugs is not enough or do you use 18 months Sprint ? Like slow Marathons ?
"Another thing to keep in mind when reading the list is the time-frames under which CCP operates. While we are used to thinking of Expansions as happening every 6 months, preparatory work for the Winter 2010 expansion began well before CSM5 arrived in Reykjavfk for the June Summit. CCP is a big company now, and it can't turn on an ISK... but it can turn."
Tell us now waht will be in the next one then !
MUSCoW priority example : You will never see Dominion working as expected ! You will see us changing mail To people only.
Yeay
P.S. : Enterprise Architect, Working in Development since 13 Years as Developper, Quality Manager, Porject Manager and Program Manager. Don't attempt to tell me it's all you can do with company of your size !
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.17 21:04:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 17/09/2010 21:08:18 I'll help with the english summary, I hope I get the points right:
Originally by: Yeay Fritg
Thank you for this Blog.
CSM, thank you for your work to make CCP consider it's player views. I feel it's the start of CSM/CCP cooperation. CCP, thank you for these opportunities without a huge expense of time from the dev team.
Sad day for the Winter Expansion if only these ideas are in the expansion! Sad if it will cost you 3 months do so few !
You have three months of work complete, a meeting in June and the main major bug is Rocket balances?
My englsih is not so good, tell me if I miss a point and I will apologizie you all if it's the case but :
- What about the Backlog Status ? (maybe the status of all CSM items ever submitted?) - What about existing Bug Status ? (status on existing bugs already submitted) - Will Dominion work as announced one day ? (probably referring to the big lag issues that became even worse in dominion ie: 10 people crashing a system etc) - Will CCP commit on a change ? (not sure what he means here) - When will you address bugs and not control tower mail notifications?
CCP: sad that you think we are all technically illiterate!
Don't you think some of your players can are aware of true development cost and time ?
If it's all your Dev team can do in 3 months it's a shame. I feel it's not, I feel your direction once again went to maintain the paying player base by putting up a bunch of talk (big words in the air).
What's else is coming in the expansion ?
CCP, How many people are working on this expansion?
It seems that 3 Sprints to close the whole list of bugs is not enough or do you use 18 month sprints ? Like slow Marathons ?
"Another thing to keep in mind when reading the list is the time-frames under which CCP operates. While we are used to thinking of Expansions as happening every 6 months, preparatory work for the Winter 2010 expansion began well before CSM5 arrived in Reykjavfk for the June Summit. CCP is a big company now, and it can't turn on an ISK... but it can turn."
Tell us now waht will be in the next one then ! (he means: Tell us what will be in the next expansion)
MUSCoW priority example : You will never see Dominion working as expected ! (We will not see Dominion issues resolved) You will see us changing mail To people only. ( We will only see control tower mails as an improvement)
P.S. : Enterprise Architect, Working in Development since 13 Years as Developper, Quality Manager, Porject Manager and Program Manager. Don't attempt to tell me it's all you can do with company of your size ! (that part speaks for itself)
Hope I helped to clear some of that up, Yeay. :) Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.09.17 21:17:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Mynxee on 17/09/2010 21:22:32 Edited by: Mynxee on 17/09/2010 21:18:35
Originally by: Yeay Fritg
I feel it's may be the start of a true CSM/CCPcommon work.
CCP, thank you for this cosmetics chance costing not so mutch on the Dev Team time.
Sad day for the Winter Expansion if only these are in the expansion! Sad if it will cost you 3 months do so so few!
Just want to point out that the items listed in the CSM blog in no way represents the sum total of what the Winter Expansion will contain. The CSM blog merely discusses which CSM items are in the pipeline for that expansion. Obviously, these items comprise a very small (though in some cases much-wanted) portion of what is planned for the Winter Expansion.
As to what else that expansion will contain, well, that's been discussed in other threads and I'm sure CCP will be putting out teasers and additional information closer to the release date.
Life In Low Sec |
Yeay Fritg
Caldari Confrerie de Kaedri Cluster Of Rebirth
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Posted - 2010.09.17 21:44:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 17/09/2010 21:55:20 Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 17/09/2010 21:46:12 Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 17/09/2010 21:45:48 Mynxee,
As we say around here : If you will do it, tell it !
Based on my CCP experience they will not do it !
CCP ?
If you can't publically commit on a point it's simply cause you will not do it and you know of !
Can't you CCP tell : We will attempt to do all this list and give you a advancement summary every 2 weeks ? Aren't you sing Sprint ? Or are you just reading the methodology right now ? Come on guy working in the Private sector and you will learn not to launch at client face !
Mynxee, thank you for all your work but as stated in the meeting minutes CCP think that new development give more than quality ! Nothing else to discuss about a game say taht ! If CCP is happy with Eve as it i let's play it but financing a company that tell publicaly 'we just want your money don't expect quality'...sorry I can trust them once but not twice.
Yeay
Johnathan Walker ;-)
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.09.17 21:52:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Wacoede
Quote: Could: As a Player, I can see the meta level of items in a column in item detail list views, so that I can easily get an overview of the quality of the items in the list.
that one item has justified my faith in the CSM
as a mission runner I do get a lot of crap so being able to quickly sort out the good stuff is gonna be a huge bonus
a big TY to Dierdra Vaal for raising it and to all the CSM for supporting it
Yeah, but as just a "Could", which is pretty sad. It's sufficiently easy and useful it should have at least been a "Should". In Quantum Rise.
Originally by: NARDAC Looks like the player bases (well deserved) little hissie fit worked!
Many of the items in tha list of being worked on sound great. Different icon for MWD, meta level in detail list of inventory, rename a ship without it being the active ship, and many more.
Hey, we got some stuff, which is nice. But until we start getting wins like a POS overhaul or text chat built sometime after 1987, I'll reserve my best praise. Still, we are getting some nice stuff out of this, so I won't complain too much. === "The data does not support that polished quality sells better than new features" "Once Incarna and Dust are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement" CCP, FTW? |
SIEGE RED
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Posted - 2010.09.17 21:57:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Wacoede
Quote: Could: As a Player, I can see the meta level of items in a column in item detail list views, so that I can easily get an overview of the quality of the items in the list.
that one item has justified my faith in the CSM
as a mission runner I do get a lot of crap so being able to quickly sort out the good stuff is gonna be a huge bonus
Yeah, but as just a "Could", which is pretty sad. It's sufficiently easy and useful it should have at least been a "Should". In Quantum Rise.
Seems like it's a pretty good test case for how serious CCPs commitment is to EVE, as opposed to other big projects. Remarkable that something as small as this can be so significant for a bigger picture. |
Ix Forres
Caldari Righteous Chaps
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Posted - 2010.09.17 22:21:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 16:32:44 Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 16:30:50 Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 16:30:30
Originally by: Jason Edwards
another csm blog..
The previous CSM blog was the one posted at the end of the CSM3 term. I'm sure we haven't been overdoing it :P
Originally by: Jonathan Walker We would greatly value their feedback and any requirements.
I wasn't even aware that actual development had happened/was happening, but I'm assuming mynxee showed you the photo of the lists we made on a whiteboard in Reykjavik in June (or perhaps a nicely formatted list). That list contained all the desires and requirements from the CSM.
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 17:09:15 I remember that but I thought it just meant progress in determining requirements, not actual development.
We took about a week to finalize the spec, which was longer than expected due to people vanishing over a weekend. After that we had a prototype in a week which we improved over the next week, then we got to the point where we had to ask CSM about an item and gave up.
There's also an issue with motivation at this stage. Both myself and Makurid have stopped working on EVE Online apps recently and currently I have no plan to continue outside of critical bugfixes for my own apps. Since we make up the majority of the development force on the project at present (http://github.com/excellence/nebula/graphs/impact) it's thus not likely that further development would be undertaken without interest from CCP or considerable interest from the majority of the CSM.
It was quite disheartening to hear that CSM5 had essentially turned to internal squabbling over the issue rather than collaborating with us, which might have resulted in a product that benefited the community being developed, as so many of these things, by the community, for free, for CCP and the playerbase. Looks like they're stuck with the wiki for now. -- Ix Forres - 3rd Party Application Developer - EVE Metrics - accVIEW
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Thanael
Gallente 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.09.17 22:41:00 -
[61]
If the drone-recalling, the bookmark alignment and seeing fitting without boarding make it in, winter expansion is a-ok in my book. Good job CCP for listening to your customers, and good job CSM for making them listen :)
These, and fixing lag ofcourse, but things are already improving so i have every confidence that you will not stop even when you reach previous highest limits of players with a playable game, but push the boundaries even higher.
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Taross
Caldari People with Guns Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.09.17 23:37:00 -
[62]
GJ so far, CSM.
Now, keep at their throats! They can do more for you, and for us, the player base. If properly motivated. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie |
Louis deGuerre
Gallente Amicus Morte Shock an Awe
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Posted - 2010.09.18 00:25:00 -
[63]
Good stuff indeed but I'll count my bears when I shot them as we says down here.
Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie
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Marconus Orion
D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.09.18 00:29:00 -
[64]
Until I see things hit TQ, I will hold back any praise for the CSM. You guys really should learn your history of the CSM before you start throwing praise at them.
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ugh zug
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Posted - 2010.09.18 07:47:00 -
[65]
I see the CSM really cares about hybrid weapons.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2010.09.18 07:49:00 -
[66]
How do you prevent the CSM from pushing their own agenda and ignoring player concerns? Concerns that the CSM might think are 'ridiculous' due to their own agenda?
What safeguards do you have that the CSM is really executing the will of the player and not their own fancy stuff? Is the election every 1 year good enough?
I don't think so!
We, the players, should certainly have more safeguards and warning mechanisms. An evaluation based on player feedback several times during the 1 year CSM period comes to my mind.
I certainly don't want the CSM people to promise all sort of things just so that they can get 1 year of CSM membership and once in the CSM they just 'forget' all about their promises. There should be safeguards against this! And currently there are none. |
Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.09.18 08:28:00 -
[67]
Could we actually fit ships without boarding them? If you are low on ISK/modules, it is a pain boarding three different ships and taking various parts of them.
Other than that - align to bookmarks, meta levels on loot, probes on overview = awesomeness. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
SIEGE RED
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Posted - 2010.09.18 09:10:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Gnulpie How do you prevent the CSM from pushing their own agenda and ignoring player concerns? Concerns that the CSM might think are 'ridiculous' due to their own agenda?
What safeguards do you have that the CSM is really executing the will of the player and not their own fancy stuff? Is the election every 1 year good enough?
Transparancy is one key. The raw logs for the meetings are quite interesting really. For example reading who really opposed the publication of the blog, or wanted just ego stroking content, or who is afraid of showing the cards on the table, is really insightful.
Originally by: Gnulpie
We, the players, should certainly have more safeguards and warning mechanisms. An evaluation based on player feedback several times during the 1 year CSM period comes to my mind.
I certainly don't want the CSM people to promise all sort of things just so that they can get 1 year of CSM membership and once in the CSM they just 'forget' all about their promises. There should be safeguards against this! And currently there are none.
Nothing is stopping you from grabbing CSM members in the CSM Public channel in game and asking questions, or doing something bigger like interviews ad interim, podcasts, or even setting up a site or blog which tracks CSM member activity. That being said, I do think one of them has a site up which shows who showed up for meetings, who voted, for what, against what, etc.
Something to keep in mind here is where the CSM comes from. It used to be just a social experiment, hence the strong "omg facebook & awesome" component, but once CCP realised they needed more consolidated feedback processes they stepped over that and assigned stakeholder status (yes, with their usual communicative challenges and confusion of definitions but still, they did it).
This CSM 5 is the first one where things have meaning and where both succes and failure has impact for CCP. CSM is not making promises, they are applying workflow, and as always the normal CCP caveat applies (never mistake any statement for a promis). But having seen how different the environment is, how different the various communities respond in regards to the old normal "drama" I do think it is fair to say that at least large parts of CCP have realised this. Which comes down to this blog, its contents, but also the general process being a serious test for CCP's commitment to the product. If they can't get these things in, then it will be clear that the visible organisational and communicative issues persist, that the divide in perception continues to exist and that while on a general level they understand a bunch of stuff, things still break down at a decision level. The Winter Expansion in that regard really is a big test.
There's just three glitches there. First of all CCP will have to overcome pulling down pants with their long term commitments balancing EVE, lessons drawn from recent events, and the other bigger projects. And second, they need to get over some long established patterns of perception, fences, trenches and fears. And last, a CSM should never forget that accountability of the host is always required as an instrument of these stakeholder processes for visibility and productivity.
So, if you want to keep an eye on CSM as a bunch of people and as a process, get in gear
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.09.18 09:21:00 -
[69]
This is awesome! FIXES!!
CCP - hybrid weapons. With the fix for rockets, and the otherwise balanced weapons in the game, you are so close to *actually making all weapon systems roughly balanced in pvp!*.
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Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.09.18 10:26:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash If you are low on ISK/modules, it is a pain boarding three different ships and taking various parts of them.
Right click -> repackage. All your mods will appear in your hangar. Doesn't work with rigged ships of course :(
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.09.18 11:58:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Gnulpie How do you prevent the CSM from pushing their own agenda and ignoring player concerns? Concerns that the CSM might think are 'ridiculous' due to their own agenda?
The major safeguard is that there are 9 CSMs, and all you need is 1 to raise an issue for discussion. Given that the CSM does not just rubberstamp what any individual CSM thinks is a good idea, it's a reasonable filter. And keep in mind that if the CSM does vote for something totally bogus, CCP will just say "ROFLMAO thanks for the LOLs" and ignore it.
Admittedly, there is the distinct possibility that both the CSM and CCP will at some point have all their heads firmly lodged in their asses (or someone else's), but that is a risk you take with any representative system.
Quote: What safeguards do you have that the CSM is really executing the will of the player and not their own fancy stuff? Is the election every 1 year good enough?
It is a rough balance; if the period in office is too short, noobs on the council (like me) are just getting up to speed on how things work by the time the next election comes along, and you waste a lot of time campaigning. If it's too long, then the council members are less accountable to the players.
Quote: We, the players, should certainly have more safeguards and warning mechanisms. An evaluation based on player feedback several times during the 1 year CSM period comes to my mind.
Easy to say, hard to do. But feel free to make a proposal in AH on how this might be implemented.
Quote: I certainly don't want the CSM people to promise all sort of things just so that they can get 1 year of CSM membership and once in the CSM they just 'forget' all about their promises. There should be safeguards against this! And currently there are none.
Well, perhaps you (and others) ought to keep track of what promises (if any) CSM members made, and what they have done to fulfill them. In my campaign, I put a special focus on UI issues and Lag, and I think I've done a decent job of trying to address those concerns, within the limitations of the current CSM process.
After I was elected, and attended the first summit, it became clear to me that expanding and defining how CSM works was also a very important issue. Thus all the work on prioritization, etc.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
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Nekobara Nanako
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Posted - 2010.09.18 11:59:00 -
[72]
So why did this thing take two votes amongst the CSM members to get published, and the last one succeeded only cause the CSM leader broke the even vote in favor or releasing?
Afraid people's expectations would be too high since they obviously can't understand that 'could' classification of rocket balance fix means it can easily be dropped? Or are we talking some other issue...
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Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.09.18 12:46:00 -
[73]
Nice one!
Also, what's with the whine about hybrids? Everyone knows that Ferox is best fit with AC's or lasers anyway...
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2010.09.18 13:34:00 -
[74]
Interesting
Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users! |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.09.18 17:54:00 -
[75]
All good changes except one: adding probes to overview. Once this goes live then the ratting bots will be able to detect and avoid probes all the more easily. Fail. As will all other potential targets.
Where are my Serpentis Stealth Probes that don't show up on scan for hunting mission runners? Well? -
Originally by: Bellum Eternus That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Taudia
Gallente Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.09.18 18:11:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus All good changes except one: adding probes to overview. Once this goes live then the ratting bots will be able to detect and avoid probes all the more easily. Fail. As will all other potential targets.
Where are my Serpentis Stealth Probes that don't show up on scan for hunting mission runners? Well?
You can add them to your overview already and it's not half as hard as making a macro. This shouldn't change anything.
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Cresalle
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Posted - 2010.09.18 18:45:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Cresalle on 18/09/2010 18:52:02
Originally by: ugh zug I see the CSM really cares about hybrid weapons.
What's wrong with hybrids? Brid ships can be nasty if you use them right.
Also, I agree with some of the earlier statements along the lines of 'Let's see what happens on TQ' but would like to say that the CSM is my collective hero and props to CCP for starting to pay attention.
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Elementatia
Caldari Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.09.18 20:12:00 -
[78]
Aye !
Very nice - now CSM is there where i have seen it as of time of the first election. Many thanks to CCP for the first company where players have a instututional voice and direct contact ! Many thanks to CSM for your work !
greetings
P.S. Maybe it¦s possible to distinguish more easily between BPO and BPC in the near future ?
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Rhok Relztem
Caldari CGMA Synergist Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.09.18 23:13:00 -
[79]
Wow! Can't believe no one who has commented is excited about the filtering of deliveries! A simple fix actually but it will be a monumental time saver for those of us who have huge lists that currently have absolutely no filtering, and now we are (hopefully) getting sort by # of jumps AND location! ROCKETS! YES! That whole list looks great (albeit short). This is fantastic after all of the drama over the summer due to expecting nothing for at least 18+ months. Truthfully, I'm as excited as a pirate facing a dozen trapped noobs loaded with PLEX in their cargo holds!
Kudos to the CSM for working so dammed hard and proving the naysayers wrong, and to CCP for (hopefully) changing direction even if it wasn't on an ISK. This winter expansion is indeed a huge test. If the bulk of these changes/fixes make it into the notes, it will go a LONG way towards restoring my faith (and probably many other players' as well) in CCP and give us reason to hope for more of the same in the future.
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.09.19 01:43:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Nekobara Nanako So why did this thing take two votes amongst the CSM members to get published, and the last one succeeded only cause the CSM leader broke the even vote in favor or releasing?
The first time a vote was called to release the blog it wasn't (in mine and a few other peoples' opinion) quite ready. I maintain the extra week of work was needed to polish.
When it was resubmitted a week later Mynxee only used her casting vote on the list of issues that CCP had accepted being included. The blog itself being released was a separate vote which passed without objection.
Originally by: Nekobara Nanako Afraid people's expectations would be too high since they obviously can't understand that 'could' classification of rocket balance fix means it can easily be dropped? Or are we talking some other issue...
As I wasn't one of the people opposing the inclusion of the list I can only guess their reasons, but I would suspect something like the above combined with the relative simplicity of the picked issues over the more meaty proposals.
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.09.19 01:44:00 -
[81]
Slightly disappointed in the number of things that were overlooked (no AF boost = sadness), but good to see some tangible progress being made.
Originally by: Bellum Eternus All good changes except one: adding probes to overview. Once this goes live then the ratting bots will be able to detect and avoid probes all the more easily. Fail. As will all other potential targets.
Where are my Serpentis Stealth Probes that don't show up on scan for hunting mission runners? Well?
Don't know where you're probing, but round my neck of the woods, there are exactly two kinds of mission runners: careless people on whom you can get a warpin with a single scan (probes visible for around 10 seconds tops), and those who fly unprobeable T3s. If you're even semi-competent at probing, you'll still have every chance of catching people of the first kind, and you can't catch the second kind as it is. Probes on the overview should have happened ages ago. Signature removed. |
Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.19 04:43:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 19/09/2010 04:43:18
Originally by: SIEGE RED
That being said, I do think one of them has a site up which shows who showed up for meetings, who voted, for what, against what, etc.
http://teadaze.net/csmDB/proposals.php?csmsession=5 is what you're looking for Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2010.09.19 09:20:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Gnulpie on 19/09/2010 09:21:25
Quote: 14 CSM-related items made the Winter Expansion list; 1 Must, 9 Should's, and 5 Could's
Hmm, isn't that 15 items?
Somehow I see only 4 Could's in the list - then you come up with 14 items. Did you forget to list one 'Could' or is the summary wrong? |
Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.09.19 10:12:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Quote: 14 CSM-related items made the Winter Expansion list; 1 Must, 9 Should's, and 5 Could's
Hmm, isn't that 15 items?
Somehow I see only 4 Could's in the list - then you come up with 14 items. Did you forget to list one 'Could' or is the summary wrong?
That is an editing error. One minor item that had been included by mistake was removed at the last moment.
A new item has been added to the backlog to address this issue:
Must: As a condition for employment at CCP, or to serve on the CSM, I must demonstrate competence in basic arithmetic.
Another win for the CSM!
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.09.19 10:21:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Elementatia P.S. Maybe it¦s possible to distinguish more easily between BPO and BPC in the near future ?
This is something that has always annoyed me, and it's on my list of things to discuss in December to see if there is a workaround that will ease the pain. If it turns out not to be reasonably doable, at the very least a good explanation of the reasons why should be communicated to the players.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
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Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
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Posted - 2010.09.19 17:55:00 -
[86]
WAIT WUT?
That's almost too good to be true. CCP making sense and implementing long overdue improvements instead of adding more half-assed new features?
*tears of joy*
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Bhattran
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Posted - 2010.09.19 22:17:00 -
[87]
Glad to see some progress but can't stress that CSM's job isn't done, nor can the 'pressure' from them let up. For the next council the momentum of all the previous CSM's has begun to turn the tide of CCP seemingly ignoring them and consequently us players.
We will have to wait and see what actually gets delivered and as time moves forward if the trend continues in a positive direction, slides into being ignored or not. I'm hopeful but not 'convinced' nor will I really ever trust that everything will work out. -------------------------------------------------------------- Fanboys would make great cult members. |
SkinSin
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Posted - 2010.09.19 22:33:00 -
[88]
Edited by: SkinSin on 19/09/2010 22:35:48
Quote: Must: As a User, I have access to archived forums.
Ha ha ha. What? The ONLY must have isn't even game related? What? Have I missed something there...?!
edit: although it'll be good to see some of the other things mentioned.
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Gerard Deneth
Caldari Pavlov Labs GmBH Independent Faction
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Posted - 2010.09.20 02:18:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus All good changes except one: adding probes to overview. Once this goes live then the ratting bots will be able to detect and avoid probes all the more easily. Fail. As will all other potential targets.
Where are my Serpentis Stealth Probes that don't show up on scan for hunting mission runners? Well?
Hate to burst your bubble but you can already add them to overview. I don't have the instructions on hand, but you just have to edit the saved overview files on your PC (they're in a basic text format) where you just enter in one or two more entries. Then bam, they're available to be seen.
---------------------------- The Game's always changing under your feet; don't start moaning when you get a toe caught in the gears. |
Camios
Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe
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Posted - 2010.09.20 12:32:00 -
[90]
Good Job CSM.
I really like the work the CSM is doing, and it's all about little things that will make EVE more polished and near to excellence (in terms of player enjoyment).
I hope that CCP will listen to the CSM about bigger things in future (stuff like fixing lowsec, lag entailing sov warfare, small gang warfare in 0.0, revamping mining and mission running).
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.09.21 21:38:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Zagdul on 21/09/2010 21:57:20
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Elementatia P.S. Maybe it¦s possible to distinguish more easily between BPO and BPC in the near future ?
This is something that has always annoyed me, and it's on my list of things to discuss in December to see if there is a workaround that will ease the pain. If it turns out not to be reasonably doable, at the very least a good explanation of the reasons why should be communicated to the players.
Add some yellow to the icon and make it green. :p
But yeah.. Green for BPO, blue for BPC... or vs. versa.
Also, to any of the CSM that are still reading this thread:
That list you guys have on the wiki... MANY of the items on that list have been addressed or are plain absurd.
If you guys are going to use that as a tool or weapon, please have someone in charge of keeping the votes and issues up-to-date.
The "increase bomb damage" one is a laugh. That should be re-voted, reviewed and removed imo. Bombs are fine.
Each "month" maybe... CSM should have a list they vote on and only the current CSM should be voting on them. Past CSM are no longer in office and were voted off for a reason... Seeing names like, Ankhesentapemkah, Jade Constantine, Hardin and a few others on MOST of the issues would just tell CCP that the CSM isn't doing their job.
my two cents.
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.22 11:59:00 -
[92]
Hi Zagdul,
For the most part, the points you see listed on the Wiki are ideas brought up by the user community at large via the Assembly Hall. These points have garnered enough support from the player base as a whole to attract the attention of a CSM representative who has put the vote forward. If there is a particular item that you feel should be amended or removed, please feel free to put forward a counter proposal and lobby your CSM representatives.
As far as keeping the Wiki up to date, I do believe Mynxee, Trebor and Diedra have commented on this very point citing their efforts on updating the very information brought up; if you notice points which need tweaking it would be a great help if you let them know. Being part of the CSM is a huge job and our dear representatives are human.
As for seeing "old names" on past issues, those members were part of the CSM at the time of their vote. This has nothing to do with anyone not doing their job but is a simple matter of archived records. Would you propose that ex-members have their votes removed and their work put aside? I do not think so.
Thanks for your feedback, and fly safe-er!
Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.09.22 12:16:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 22/09/2010 12:18:02 As far as I know, no procedures exist to remove a previously approved proposal. And tbh, I don't think that is needed at all.
I'm also not sure where you get the idea that anyone other than the current CSM vote on issues. In fact, if you look at the meeting minutes you see exactly that (CSM + alts when needed). Names of previous CSM members are on the issues because when those issues were up for vote, they were CSM members. It's a matter of record keeping. If you mean the CSM should go through all the 300+ historic issues every month (or even once per term), you're just plain pants-on-head crazy.
As for the bomb issue, there's no such issue except the general bomb improvements issue - where increasing their damage was only one of the possible solutions. This proposal was made before bombs were used much (back in may 2008 they still cost several millions each) and is the cause of bombs becoming cheaper (which you will notice is another suggestion in that issue). As such, the issue has been marked 'Resolved'.
We do our best to keep the wiki up to date and mark all resolved issues as resolved. I believe this has been done for CSM1 and 3, but 2 and 4 are still undergoing these updates. If you find an issue that has been resolved but isn't marked as such (or has been incorrectly marked as resolved), just let one of us know :)
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.09.22 12:47:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Zagdul on 22/09/2010 12:53:34
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal response...
The reason I say that the current CSM's vote is important is that the previous group is no longer in "office" and as the game of EVE Online changes, as does the user base and the opinion of what are important issues that need addressing.
Simply linking a list of many things that need addressing can most certainly just add to problems rather than focus on issues that are either a) a primary concern for the user base b) a serious game breaking issue that should have higher priority for the players or c) something that CCP should be made aware of but may not know.
Examples which are being addressed: A) Rockets B) WH/sploit/mechanic C) Module lag during fleet fights
The list that gets linked seems to be done so as a weapon and labled a backlog that just gets thrown into CCP's face. It annoys me because after clicking through a lot of those issues, they have an overwhelming "Yes" vote for issues that in many people's opinion would seem absurd or nitpicking. Furthermore, many of those "backlogged" items are fixed or non-issues... Bombs for example. They do fine damage, yet the proposal on that wiki is asking for more? Have you ever been bombarded by a fleet of stealthbombers?
Another example, the first on the list making it easy to find one... : http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/0.0_sovereignty_%28CSM%29
This is an issue sov suggestion issue, that has a linked 2 page thread from 2008. It further fails to discuss possible post dominion ideas. IMO, this "issue" which is being labeled by the CSM as a "backlog" should be removed or updated.
What I'm getting at is that the current CSM who was elected into office by it's peers should keep a running tally of the issues which they feel are important and a private (they don't discuss/share their vote with other candidates) survey they do monthly. I'm no web pro, but I'm sure that the CSM could come up with a more updated list than that on the wiki with some form of process that keeps the items up for review periodically.
When you guys work on a blog and put your name on it, but add the line of: "And yet, there was still the problem of the backlog.", that backlog should be consistent with issues that still need addressing or have solutions suggested to fix the issues that are still current. Putting that line in is very confrontational towards CCP in my opinion.
Narrow that list down a bit and maybe have a new page for "solved CSM issues" and move stuff off that page. Also, by having that long ass list, how the hell is CCP supposed to get to the bottom of anything? You want to get things fixed and feel that you as a CSM rep have done something to improve this game. Well, streamline that list and give CCP solutions or consolidated problems, not a list of things that got posted on a forum. If you are going to have that "backlog", at least have a "high priority" page.
Show that the CSM does something and that CCP does listen. Win/Win...
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Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.09.22 13:16:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 22/09/2010 13:21:30 we have a page that only includes issues in process (the 'backlog' if you will). it is this one
you can find all CSM related categories here
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.22 14:30:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 22/09/2010 14:31:22
Originally by: Zagdul
The reason I say that the current CSM's vote is important is that the previous group is no longer in "office" and as the game of EVE Online changes, as does the user base and the opinion of what are important issues that need addressing.
I think maybe you're getting confused; the previous CSM members do not vote on current issues brought up by the current CSM. Any notes you see referencing old CSM members has to do with their votes at a previous date during previous meetings. They do not have any say in the operations or decisions of the current CSM.
I agree that the game does change as does the user base but I what I'm reading here seems to indicate that you would advocate previous CSM issues being put on to the "back burner" if you will, because an issue was raised by a previous council. I'm sorry, but that's insane... for a few reasons, but the big one being that issues which do not get resolved in the current council are simply "pushed off". In my opinion, this is 100% ineffective and sets up a cycle where nothing gets done, because "they're no longer in office". These are commitments, not flavours of the month.
Originally by: Zagdul
Simply linking a list of many things that need addressing can most certainly just add to problems rather than focus on issues that are either a) a primary concern for the user base b) a serious game breaking issue that should have higher priority for the players or c) something that CCP should be made aware of but may not know.
Examples which are being addressed: A) Rockets B) WH/sploit/mechanic C) Module lag during fleet fights
Again, the issues raised by previous CSM members were "a primary concern for the user base" at the time. Proposals in the Assembly Hall are "voted" on by the player base at large and it is these issues with high support that the CSM takes a look at. These suggestions are over and above that which CCP wishes to/needs to deal with, such as exploits or performance. This covers your points b) and c).
Originally by: Zagdul
The list that gets linked seems to be done so as a weapon and labled a backlog that just gets thrown into CCP's face. It annoys me because after clicking through a lot of those issues, they have an overwhelming "Yes" vote for issues that in many people's opinion would seem absurd or nitpicking. Furthermore, many of those "backlogged" items are fixed or non-issues... Bombs for example. They do fine damage, yet the proposal on that wiki is asking for more? Have you ever been bombarded by a fleet of stealthbombers?
Zagdul, Dierdra already clarified the "bombs need a boost" point... If you would take five seconds to actually read the wiki article that you're upset about, you would notice this:
Categories: CSM Submission | CSM First Candidacy | Resolved Issues
See where it says "Resolved Issues"? That means it's done, fini, wan-chen... pick your language of choice, it means the same thing. Again, if you feel an issue is "absurd" or "nitpicking", the way to address that concern is via the Assembly Hall or Jita Park forums. I'm sorry that you feel that specific issues do not match your beliefs but please remember, these are things the players voiced their opinions on in much the same way as you are doing now. This is not an arbitrary list that CSM members decided to put forward one night: "LOL guyz, let's put X Y Z forward and lol to Iceland and back!". Sorry to bust the warp-bubble here.
Originally by: Zagdul
Another example, the first on the list making it easy to find one... : http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/0.0_sovereignty_%28CSM%29
This is an issue sov suggestion issue, that has a linked 2 page thread from 2008. It further fails to discuss possible post dominion ideas. IMO, this "issue" which is being labeled by the CSM as a "backlog" should be removed or updated.
Quote:
[cont] Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.22 14:43:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 22/09/2010 14:43:59 I'll agree on this point; it does need some work and TLC.
Originally by: Zagdul
What I'm getting at is that the current CSM who was elected into office by it's peers should keep a running tally of the issues which they feel are important and a private (they don't discuss/share their vote with other candidates) survey they do monthly. I'm no web pro, but I'm sure that the CSM could come up with a more updated list than that on the wiki with some form of process that keeps the items up for review periodically.
A few points here, so I'll address them one by one:
- Regarding the "running tally" and "not discussing/sharing votes with other candidates".... What in-space are you talking about? The whole point of the CSM is to have an open and transparent advocacy group between the player base and the fine folks at CCP. Would you be proposing that the CSM keep its work from the public? Why? If I've misunderstood, please help me to clarify.
- Regarding the "more updated list than that on the wiki/proces"... That's exactly what I was commenting on in my previous posts on Page 1 and 2 (and to a lesser extent, page 3) regarding a prototype application coded by some members of the community at large. The CSM knows there are gaps in protocol and process and also generally agree (broad statement here) that there needs to be more flexbility and robust-ness built in to existing tools or new tools developed to meet their needs. This is why the #excellence channel on irc.coldfront.net exsists, for this very reason. Also noted in the blog itself and in player comments are quite a few nods of agreement about approaching CCP to discuss other ideas... did you not see this points?
Originally by: Zagdul
When you guys work on a blog and put your name on it, but add the line of: "And yet, there was still the problem of the backlog.", that backlog should be consistent with issues that still need addressing or have solutions suggested to fix the issues that are still current. Putting that line in is very confrontational towards CCP in my opinion.
If I may be bold... the CSM's job is not to be cute and fluffy. While I agree that there is a lot to be said about diplomacy and tact as useful tools, I would highly recommend reading back two years into the history of the CSM and general player opinions. In the past (and sometimes still today), players have voiced criticism of CCP's actions (or inactions) in many forms, some to the point of outright hostility. Maybe some of it was not warranted, maybe some of it was... the point being, the CSM is like your defense lawyer: Do you expect your highly trained/elected representative to just bend over if the judge hands down a harsh sentence? NO! Of course you wouldn't! The same goes for the CSM... an elected body of representatives who are there to give the players a voice and an avenue to coordinate efforts with CCP to develop Eve over time. Conflicts will arise, and in my humble opinion, the notation of "there was still the problem of the backlog" is not a bash at CCP but pointing out where we were, our frustrations, our concerns... and how much hard work has gone into putting us in the wonderful position we are in today.
If you have no metrics by which to base your progress, how do you know you've moved forward?
Originally by: Zagdul
Narrow that list down a bit and maybe have a new page for "solved CSM issues" (shoulda read your whole post) and move stuff off that page. Also, by having that long ass list, how the hell is CCP supposed to get to the bottom of anything? You want to get things fixed and feel that you as a CSM rep have done something to improve this game. Well, streamline that list and give CCP solutions or consolidated problems, not a list of things that got posted on a forum. If you are going to have that "backlog", at least have a "high priority" page.
Might I interest you in August's crowdsourcing and prioritization?
[cont, again] Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.22 14:45:00 -
[98]
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/August_2010_Prioritization_Crowdsourcing_%28CSM%29
Originally by: Zagdul
Show that the CSM does something and that CCP does listen. Win/Win...
Now see, that's just a cold stab in the back. I don't know about current CSM members or the ones in the past, but flying to Iceland on a 16 hour flight and spending two to three days jabbering sounds like *WORK* to me... let's not forget the between-summit meetings, the wiki articles (yes, we covered the need to update it more), the emails, the eve-mails, the internal forum debates, the forum minutes by the secretary, the blog updates... all while playing that other MMORPG we call "Real Life". Don't kid yourself: CSM work is a second job; ask any present or ex-member and I'm positive they will agree. If you feel that they're not doing anything, by all means feel free to run next election and present your platform on improvements. I hardly call the items listed in this big blog a "lack of work". Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.09.22 19:45:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Zagdul on 22/09/2010 19:51:17
Originally by: Johnathan Walker Hi Zagdul,
You missed my points.
Hopefully, the CSM rep got them.
I'll try to summarize my concerns with shorter sentences. I have a hard time making points...
1. If you're going to use a page as ammunition, please have that page up to date or link to the current issues page. If not, you're just fueling the fire.
2. Issues should be dynamic, not static.
3. While the CSM process should be transparent, it should have some inconsistencies. I don't like that on many of the issues there are resounding "Yes" votes when, in my opinion Yes/No is not concise enough and the representatives are no longer in the CSM position. Furthermore, some of those issues have been heated debates on the forums. In other words, the vote wasn't an honest one or, since they're no longer in office, their opinion doesn't matter. Also, the newest CSM seems to have more of an unique and open opinion where the former guys were all whistle blowing loud mouths who were there for a title and to suck up to get to the top. The latest crew seems to want to get things done and fixed. Out with the old, in with the new.
The "tally" should be a private thing the CSM's do and don't share with the other CSM to help avoid them influencing each other. Their vote should be separate.
Yes, this should be made public later.
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.09.22 19:53:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Johnathan Walker http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/August_2010_Prioritization_Crowdsourcing_%28CSM%29
Originally by: Zagdul
Show that the CSM does something and that CCP does listen. Win/Win...
Now see, that's just a cold stab in the back. I don't know about current CSM members or the ones in the past, but flying to Iceland on a 16 hour flight and spending two to three days jabbering sounds like *WORK* to me... let's not forget the between-summit meetings, the wiki articles (yes, we covered the need to update it more), the emails, the eve-mails, the internal forum debates, the forum minutes by the secretary, the blog updates... all while playing that other MMORPG we call "Real Life". Don't kid yourself: CSM work is a second job; ask any present or ex-member and I'm positive they will agree. If you feel that they're not doing anything, by all means feel free to run next election and present your platform on improvements. I hardly call the items listed in this big blog a "lack of work".
I disagree... You just told me that the CSM process is supposed to be transparent?
How more transparent can someone be than by SHOWING your work.
Show that the CSM does things and that CCP listens... it's a win/win situation.
I'm sorry if that could have seemed like a cynical comment by me, it wasn't meant to be.
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.22 20:45:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Zagdul
How more transparent can someone be than by SHOWING your work.
Show that the CSM does things and that CCP listens... it's a win/win situation.
I'm sorry if that could have seemed like a cynical comment by me, it wasn't meant to be.
It's very cynical: What part of the efforts by CSM's past and present thus far warrant the comment of "Show that the CSM does things"?
There's meeting minutes, there's blogs, there's raw text files of the meetings posted for anyone to read, there's summit summaries to read, there's the in-game channel CSM Public, there's evemail and email...
What part of CSM's actions past and present are giving you the reason to say "Show me that the CSM does work" ?
As far as I can see, they're working their butts off. Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.09.23 02:03:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Johnathan Walker
It's very cynical:
I understand that it can be interpreted as cynical, it wasn't meant to be.
I hope I explained it better in my second post.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.09.23 02:28:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Johnathan Walker I don't know about current CSM members or the ones in the past, but flying to Iceland on a 16 hour flight and spending two to three days jabbering sounds like *WORK* to me...
About 20 hours a week, minimum, not counting the summit trips. Poor Mynxee is basically burning *all* her vacation days on CSM stuff.
There's a reason for the tagline on my sig...
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
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Yeay Fritg
Caldari Confrerie de Kaedri Cluster Of Rebirth
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Posted - 2010.09.23 02:55:00 -
[104]
CSM,
Thanks you please continue even if CCP is really going the bad way and give us only cosmetics points or so old ones that I only trust that they have already solved it or that it will introduce more bugs.
CCP, thank you for the guys I met here and I will keep in touch with!
I stop playing Eve now after 4 years(subscription end) cause it's no more Eve Online and based on CCP way it will no more be. I liked extensions but the base of the game is driving away cause of CCP greed attitude.
-1 Veteran -2 Paying
Fly Safe, Yeay
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.09.23 20:04:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Trebor DaehdoowAbout 20 hours a week, minimum, not counting the summit trips. Poor Mynxee is basically burning *all* her vacation days on CSM stuff.[/quote
Actually taking unpaid leave for all remaining Iceland trips since I have no paid leave time left to use. I'm just real damn lucky to have a very cool boss. And even with CCP paying for flights and accommodations, there are still incidental expenses incurred. Every time I hear the "free trips to Iceland" meme bandied about, I just :rolleyes: at the ignorance that conveys.
CSM is work. If you don't believe it, there's a sure way to find out: Get elected and experience it for yourself!
<3 JW for all your support.
Life In Low Sec |
Delilah Wild
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Posted - 2010.09.23 23:47:00 -
[106]
While the progress may be slow, this is an impressive post. Mynxee, Dierdra and the rest of the CSM are doing impressive work. I'm grateful we have such a dedicated CSM.
Cheers, Delilah
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.24 00:15:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus All good changes except one: adding probes to overview. Once this goes live then the ratting bots will be able to detect and avoid probes all the more easily. Fail. As will all other potential targets.
Where are my Serpentis Stealth Probes that don't show up on scan for hunting mission runners? Well?
Fail.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
wr3cks
Reliables Inc Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.09.25 03:04:00 -
[108]
These changes are underwhelming in the extreme. I hope that CCP makes a boatload of money on their vampire game and DUST so they can get back to fixing this one. I don't know if they've noticed, but the font is blindingly terrible, the UI is cripplingly bad, POSes are miserable to deal with, sov warfare is about as fun as a poke in the eye, etc., etc.
I guess it's better than nothing, and I appreciate the CSM's trying (especially when it's so obviously futile).
Except Meissa. This is obviously all her fault.
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Cygnet Lythanea
Shamrock Technical Solutions
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Posted - 2010.09.28 12:14:00 -
[109]
Not that I think that a lot of people care about this more then they do about combat issues, but I'd still like to see POS improvements and ship crews. Since I never even heard of this 'crowdsourcing' vote they did, and was the author of the Ship Crews thread in the Features forum, many of who's idea were culled for the proposal.
Personally, I think that CCP should post a public list of the 'backlog' for all of us to read, so we know what's actually being worked on and what isn't.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.09.29 15:33:00 -
[110]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: Bellum Eternus All good changes except one: adding probes to overview. Once this goes live then the ratting bots will be able to detect and avoid probes all the more easily. Fail. As will all other potential targets.
Where are my Serpentis Stealth Probes that don't show up on scan for hunting mission runners? Well?
Fail.
Buy probes, abandon in macrobotted system, LOL as macros log back out as soon as they log in because probes are on scan. Repeat; probes are cheap.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.09.29 23:25:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Malcanis Buy probes, abandon in macrobotted system, LOL as macros log back out as soon as they log in because probes are on scan. Repeat; probes are cheap.
I love you, Malcanis, for you are my kind of evil genius.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
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Rawbin Hood
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.09.30 03:29:00 -
[112]
that "backlog" list could be cut in half, at least, serious, ◄Brutor► The Movement Because the human race can do better as a whole (despite these forums, they don't count) |
Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
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Posted - 2010.10.11 21:56:00 -
[113]
Thanks for the very comprehensive round-up. Inclusion of CSM as a stakeholder in Agile is a significant and important step. As part of your 'How to improve Process', IMHO you could add an intro to Agile in the "New CSM Member Guide" (Or create the guide if you don't!).
Buy ≡v≡ Strategic Maps in the Eve-Online Store |
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