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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:50:00 -
[1]
Ok before you start writing your negative comment, please note that I don't want to change anything about cloaking with this post, just give my view (I have some limited experience) of how it works for a small nullsec industrial alliance in EVE today. Some of this is from my own experience, some is fiction.
Lets start with Alliance A. It's a small industrial alliance (150 players over different timezones) that, let's face it, don't really have in nullsec to do because they don't have the necessary pvp force to defend themselves, but they are rich, they have carriers and plenty of ships and POSes but they aren't pvpers and don't have experience or training of pvp and cooperation.
However, as renters in some remote 0.0 system(s) they can in fact work relatively undisturbed even with their weak fighting force. They are too small to attract any major attention. They can shoo away smaller incursions or hide in their POSes if the attack is too powerful. If they are under real threat their landlords will come bail them out as per the rental agreement, but in reality this never happens. So essentially the rent is for a NAP, nothing else.
For the rent they pay 1-2 bil/month to Large Alliance B. On top of this comes the expenses of the actual system ownership and any upgrades they have in the ihub.
During any given time A has maybe 2-30 persons in system depending on weekday and time of day.
Now imagine that Large Alliance B is at war with Large Alliance C. C wants to weaken B through attrition. They do this by sending an afk cloaker to A:s system. A now has a problem. They want to use their more or less defenceless 300-mil hulks and 500 mil pve ships, but can't risk it while there is someone in the system. Obviously B won't care about helping with a single ****ty cloaker, and what can they do about it anyway?
Sure you say, what can a single cloaker do? Anyone with the slightest control of the overview can bolt before the cloaker can even target them! Well then consider this: * The cloaker can easily decloak before he warps into the grid so no extra targeting delay. * A normal ship with a normal cloak can sit for hours and then pounce on a ship, with no targeting delay (it's counted down in the warp) * A hulk takes a good 15-20 seconds to align and a ratting ship can be locked down by rats at any given time. * Mining is really boring and therefore it's hard to keep vigilant for hours on end. * Just because a ship is cloaky and weak doesn't mean it can't take out an even weaker hulk. If you can take out or fly faster than its drones it's helpless. * T3 ships can cloak, and they are anything but weak. * A weak cloaky ship can use a cyno to hot drop super carriers as good as any other ship. * A weak cloaky ship can warp scramble a ship and orbit out of range until a support fleet jumps in (a support fleet that might be in the system next door). * If you have 3 friendlies in system you can't waste 33% of the available work force to just sit and guard a hulk and a transport, Alliance A have to pay their +2 bil/month after all. And besides who says a single ship will be deterrent enough? Also, if you thought it's boring to mine, imagine how fun it is to babysit a miner...
An easy way to solve this would be to protect any ops by a carrier (given that you always have someone who can fly a carrier available which doesn't need to be true). The biggest problem then is obviously super carrier hot-dropping and that can be prevented by a cyno jammer, but there are things to consider here as well: * A cyno jammer costs A LOT to keep operational for a small alliance, every added cost cuts into their profit that is already pretty thin due to the rent. * A cyno jammer also jams their own capitals that might be needed for logistics. This is a real pain if no one from the alliance leadership is on when a capital needs to jump.
So, some insight in how it is to live in nullsec as a small industrial alliance.
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Orkasm
Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:54:00 -
[2]
Get friends with bigger guns -------------
Lifes a waste of time, Times a waste of life, Get wasted all the time and you'll have the time |
Printer Jam
Printer Repair and Maintenance Specialists
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:58:00 -
[3]
maybe nullsec just isnt for you then. |
Mangala Solaris
Caldari Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:58:00 -
[4]
How do you know the cloaker is afk?
Signature rotation removed for containing inappropriate signatures. Zymurgist |
Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:59:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Orkasm Get friends with bigger guns
How would big guns help against a single cloaky? You can't even find it
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:05:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Printer Jam maybe nullsec just isnt for you then.
Well it was clearly stated that Alliance A is probably too weak for nullsec life by themselves, but under the protection of their small size and their landlords they are still able to.
The thing I want to show here is that had there not been a way to afk-cloak they could have continued operate normally by kicking the pest out of the system or even have their landlords do it for them. They might not be large enough to take on the 0.0 life alone, but a single ship they should be able to handle, but can't due to the cloaking.
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:08:00 -
[7]
I am sorry but the arrogence of the more whiney PVE'Rs and there ISK per hour is a huge joke to me!
I can not risk my 100 million hulk so I will pretend the 15Mil Coveter does not exist!
List of ships that can 0.0 Rat for under 10Mil!
Any Assualt Frigate Vexor Thorax Arbitrator Caracal Moa Rupture Ferox Cyclone Brutix Prophecy
So I am not really broken up you can not fly hundreds of millions of ISK in PVE gear in a war!
Would a High Sec War be any different!
-- Alara's Law!
As an online discussion on EVE ships grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving the Dominix approaches 1 |
Izztyrr Maemtor
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Daedalus II I don't want to change anything about cloaking with this post
Sir, the above statement is false.
Originally by: Daedalus II Lets start with Alliance A. It's a small industrial alliance (150 players over different timezones) that, let's face it, don't really have in nullsec to do because they don't have the necessary pvp force to defend themselves, but they are rich, they have carriers and plenty of ships and POSes but they aren't pvpers and don't have experience or training of pvp and cooperation.
If Alliance A are not PvPers then why are they in null-sec?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:12:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm I am sorry but the arrogence of the more whiney PVE'Rs and there ISK per hour is a huge joke to me!
I can not risk my 100 million hulk so I will pretend the 15Mil Coveter does not exist!
List of ships that can 0.0 Rat for under 10Mil!
Any Assualt Frigate Vexor Thorax Arbitrator Caracal Moa Rupture Ferox Cyclone Brutix Prophecy
So I am not really broken up you can not fly hundreds of millions of ISK in PVE gear in a war!
Would a High Sec War be any different!
That is a very good argument! That does indeed sound like a pretty good solution to the problem.
The only small problem I see is that it could be a logistical problem to replace all these ships if they are lost often. There is also the fact that the higher level rats will be too dangerous for normal cruisers and sometimes even battlecruisers, but that's a minor problem.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor
Originally by: Daedalus II I don't want to change anything about cloaking with this post
Sir, the above statement is false.
Well it might not be entirely true, but it's not like I'm saying it has to go. I more want to start a debate around how it works and if it works as it's supposed to. Maybe it isn't in all pvpers best interest to drive the industrialists out with afk-cloaking, maybe it's more fun to do it with battles and small gangs?
Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor
Originally by: Daedalus II Lets start with Alliance A. It's a small industrial alliance (150 players over different timezones) that, let's face it, don't really have in nullsec to do because they don't have the necessary pvp force to defend themselves, but they are rich, they have carriers and plenty of ships and POSes but they aren't pvpers and don't have experience or training of pvp and cooperation.
If Alliance A are not PvPers then why are they in null-sec?
Where does it say you HAVE to be a pvper to be in nullsec? Of course you have to pvp from time to time in nullsec, that's a given, but it doesn't have to be your PRIMARY goal IMO.
I think my first post illustrated pretty clearly that an industrial alliance can survive and have a pretty good time out there as long as they aren't harassed by enemies they can't locate and kick out. All other enemies can be handled, small and large, except the afk-cloakers.
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Rikki Sals
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:23:00 -
[11]
This tale brings tears to my eyes everytime I hear it
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daddys helper
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:25:00 -
[12]
so have someone sit on the gate with a MWD. Cloak is a nice idea but I can't say how many times I got ganked at a gatecamp while cloaked. if you set traps you will catch your cloaker
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Bernard Schuyler
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:26:00 -
[13]
@OP I don't understand your point. Are you suggesting the mere potential threat of the AFK Cloaker is so problematic that CCP should nerf it?
The pilots of group A here have a few options:
1) Ignore it. Roll the dice the cloaker is AFK and take their chances. They need to keep an eye on DScan, and stay aligned. SOP in other words.
2) Try and bait it. Put out a Hulk/Industrial/Whatever with the best tank they can muster, and have their own cloaked ships on grid, or a support group at the POS waiting to pounce.
But honestly, of all the threats to worry about, this is not worthy of complaint.
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gfldex
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:27:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Daedalus II So, some insight in how it is to live in nullsec as a small industrial alliance.
Let me put it this way. Players compete about resources, corps compete about players and alliances compete about corps.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:27:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Rikki Sals This tale brings tears to my eyes everytime I hear it
* Daedalus hands Rikki a napkin *
I know, this is some powerful emotions! betrayal, happiness, camaraderie and death, this tale has it all!
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:32:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Daedalus II
Originally by: Alara IonStorm I am sorry but the arrogence of the more whiney PVE'Rs and there ISK per hour is a huge joke to me!
I can not risk my 100 million hulk so I will pretend the 15Mil Coveter does not exist!
List of ships that can 0.0 Rat for under 10Mil!
Any Assualt Frigate Vexor Thorax Arbitrator Caracal Moa Rupture Ferox Cyclone Brutix Prophecy
So I am not really broken up you can not fly hundreds of millions of ISK in PVE gear in a war!
Would a High Sec War be any different!
That is a very good argument! That does indeed sound like a pretty good solution to the problem.
The only small problem I see is that it could be a logistical problem to replace all these ships if they are lost often. There is also the fact that the higher level rats will be too dangerous for normal cruisers and sometimes even battlecruisers, but that's a minor problem.
Replace them right there.. they go pos, they can anchor all needed modules to replace any losses..
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:38:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Daedalus II on 17/09/2010 16:38:11
Originally by: Bernard Schuyler
1) Ignore it. Roll the dice the cloaker is AFK and take their chances. They need to keep an eye on DScan, and stay aligned. SOP in other words.
Certanly possible, especially if combined with Alaras idea of using cheap ships.
Originally by: Bernard Schuyler
2) Try and bait it. Put out a Hulk/Industrial/Whatever with the best tank they can muster, and have their own cloaked ships on grid, or a support group at the POS waiting to pounce.
Also possible, but requires a lot of planning. You have to get the right people online at the right time, maybe only possible during a weekend or such. So you manage to kill the cloaker once. You get rid of him, people go to bed, and when you come back the next day he's there again in the same ship. Alternatively when he realize he's screwed he lights a cyno and drops a mothership on the whole op, results: mothership 1, bating fleet 0 (really 0, nothing survives)
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:41:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 17/09/2010 16:43:28
Originally by: Daedalus II
That is a very good argument! That does indeed sound like a pretty good solution to the problem.
The only small problem I see is that it could be a logistical problem to replace all these ships if they are lost often. There is also the fact that the higher level rats will be too dangerous for normal cruisers and sometimes even battlecruisers, but that's a minor problem.
People also forget that a one time investment in a 90mil medium POS shipyard will midigate the the strain on your logistic chain, it can preduce all of the above ships for a very small cost increase!
Not every massive load of minerals needs to go to highsec as long as you have a lab and a few BPO's to produce these ships your small ship supply is safe. As for the modules 1 cloaked Blockade runner can keep you in modules for a month, just pay the pilot who brought them to the POS for 10% above Jita Price when the mods are taken!
As for heavier PVE you can still use Tech one Ravens, Domi's Abbadons and Tempests to rat as long as pretection is in the system at the time. In the time it take to chew through there large tank a couple of Hurricanes or Harbringers can be Scrambled to deal with a stealth ship!
-- Alara's Law!
As an online discussion on EVE ships grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving the Dominix approaches 1 |
Printer Jam
Printer Repair and Maintenance Specialists
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:42:00 -
[19]
This thread is now about removing local in 0.0 and fixing rockets |
Khanaris Asgarth
Eternium Industries
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:44:00 -
[20]
Best of luck in finding a solution to destroy the cloaker. Definitely worth trying baiting him a few times. But try having your own caps on standby in case they actually do drop a supercarrier on you.
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Agent Unknown
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:53:00 -
[21]
Hint about cyno jammers: They don't jam anchored cyno generators which can be used by anyone in your alliance and do not appear on the overview. You can use these when you can use the jammer. I forgot to mention that you are in fact reading something that is called a signature. |
Dave Daze
Minmatar Thor's Spite
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:54:00 -
[22]
roll the dice indeed. If its an afk cloaker no need to worry. If its a t3 with covert reconf, have some ships on standby pre aligned and rdy to hit warp to ( you preferably ) and shoot it. He wont be happy losing a skill rank. Also dont talk about fleet ops in local. Meaning dont say things like " Hey guyz ima be in belt 1 mining "
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Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2010.09.17 16:58:00 -
[23]
0.0 is not high sec. Why do you think it should be risk free/easy to run industry out there?
Geeze I sound like Akita T...somebody shoot me.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Agent Unknown Hint about cyno jammers: They don't jam anchored cyno generators which can be used by anyone in your alliance and do not appear on the overview. You can use these when you can use the jammer.
Only problem is that cyno generators cost upkeep as well, so it gets even more expensive.
So either you live on a shoestring economy or you take the occasional hit from a super carrier, although they can be expensive if you're unlucky.
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Bernard Schuyler
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:01:00 -
[25]
Quote: Also possible, but requires a lot of planning. You have to get the right people online at the right time, maybe only possible during a weekend or such. So you manage to kill the cloaker once. You get rid of him, people go to bed, and when you come back the next day he's there again in the same ship. Alternatively when he realize he's screwed he lights a cyno and drops a mothership on the whole op, results: mothership 1, bating fleet 0 (really 0, nothing survives)
No offense, but now you are changing the parameters of the discussion. We went from an AFK Cloaker behind enemy lines to a Claoker that can get into your system at will no matter how many times you've popped him. That sounds like your Industrialists are sitting in a pipe, too close to contested space, or need better security.
If someone is willing to devote that much effort, time, manpower, and resources to blowing you up... well them's the breaks. You either match their efforts, or retreat.
And before you say that a single AFK Cloaker is not really much effort, time, manpower, or resources... Your own argument caveats say it is. It is an AFK Cloaker willing to come back to harrass you specifically day after day, even if he gets popped, is actually at the keyboard for enough time to be a legitimate threat (and not just psych warfare), and that his group are actually willing and ready to hot drop you if they get half a chance.
Those circumstances are not a simple AFK Cloaker ruining the fun of a corp/alliance of Industrialists... Now you are suggesting this is a large group of PVPers in an active covert ops campaign to bring you to ruin. And they are equally entitled to the chance for fun
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gfldex
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:05:00 -
[26]
Let's face it. There is no way to counter a covert cyno then to have a cyno char and a few carriers at stand by (not AFK) all the time. And even if the attacker is falling for it, you can't pull that trick twice because you have to expect getting hit by a caps fleet the next round.
The amount of effort you have to put into fighting a pilot, that is AFK most of the time, is so big that you do better to go back to highsec and run missions with a halve decent lvl4 agent.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:09:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Bernard Schuyler
No offense, but now you are changing the parameters of the discussion. We went from an AFK Cloaker behind enemy lines to a Claoker that can get into your system at will no matter how many times you've popped him. That sounds like your Industrialists are sitting in a pipe, too close to contested space, or need better security.
If someone is willing to devote that much effort, time, manpower, and resources to blowing you up... well them's the breaks. You either match their efforts, or retreat.
And before you say that a single AFK Cloaker is not really much effort, time, manpower, or resources... Your own argument caveats say it is. It is an AFK Cloaker willing to come back to harrass you specifically day after day, even if he gets popped, is actually at the keyboard for enough time to be a legitimate threat (and not just psych warfare), and that his group are actually willing and ready to hot drop you if they get half a chance.
Those circumstances are not a simple AFK Cloaker ruining the fun of a corp/alliance of Industrialists... Now you are suggesting this is a large group of PVPers in an active covert ops campaign to bring you to ruin. And they are equally entitled to the chance for fun
Well you get what you pay for. For 1-2 bil/month you don't get around the clock protection (you don't get any at all). And as stated earlier the small alliance A can't waste manpower sitting idly at gates. Besides it's pretty easy to run a gatecamp if you have a cloaky ship, so even if you DO waste the time of guarding the gates you are still very likely to miss him coming in and then it's too late anyway.
And sure the cloaker is determined, he is using his own time. But he can sit afk for hours doing something else, while he blocks up maybe 5-10 others. That's a pretty low cost to keep a system unproductive.
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Miagi Sans
Amarr PURgE-Corp PURgE Alliance
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:16:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor
Originally by: Daedalus II I don't want to change anything about cloaking with this post
Sir, the above statement is false.
Originally by: Daedalus II Lets start with Alliance A. It's a small industrial alliance (150 players over different timezones) that, let's face it, don't really have in nullsec to do because they don't have the necessary pvp force to defend themselves, but they are rich, they have carriers and plenty of ships and POSes but they aren't pvpers and don't have experience or training of pvp and cooperation.
If Alliance A are not PvPers then why are they in null-sec?
ummm null sec is not only for just pvpr's
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Sagesse
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:18:00 -
[29]
I am the biggest carebear going but everything you've said is working precisely as intended, 0.0 is a combat zone, if you have a problem with someone in your system do something about it with guns and stuff or ignore him, and frankly any carebear worrying abut logistics of moving/building a few cruisers and frigates (BPCS, refining loot, etc, etc) has wider issues
Please do not change cloaking, working as intended.
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Kiritsubo
Ritual Suicide
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Posted - 2010.09.17 17:24:00 -
[30]
AFK cloaker is not AFK, he's watching you in your POS. And probably reading your alliance chat with his spy alt.
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