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Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.09.17 21:42:00 -
[31]
So considering the creation of this ship has basically made one of the Role bonus for the Marauder hulls obsolete, will we see a change in Role bonus for them to something that's actually useful?
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.09.17 21:47:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Verone
So considering the creation of this ship has basically made one of the Role bonus for the Marauder hulls obsolete, will we see a change in Role bonus for them to something that's actually useful?
Nice thought, however quite unlikely. Meh, you never know, it might happen though if enough people complain about it... for a couple of years.
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2010.09.17 22:03:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Verone
So considering the creation of this ship has basically made one of the Role bonus for the Marauder hulls obsolete, will we see a change in Role bonus for them to something that's actually useful?
We did consider Marauders during the design for the Noctis, and we don't feel like the two ships overlap particularly. The only obvious scenario where a Marauder is now markedly less useful is where you're dual-boxing a PvE site that has no additional spawns or risk of aggro switches. We feel that this constitutes a sufficiently small subset of a Marauder's common use cases that it's not a significant issue.
(Based on the assumption that if you're PVEing in a Marauder, you shouldn't be experiencing a significant lag between final NPC killed and final wreck salvaged.)
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David Grogan
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.09.17 22:15:00 -
[34]
Edited by: David Grogan on 17/09/2010 22:15:32
dear ccp can u make one more adjustment to the specs b4 ya release it?
with no turret hardpoints this ship is completly defenceless... please give it at least a 25m3 drone bay for light drones
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.09.17 22:19:00 -
[35]
I just read the thread and found out what the Noctis does!
I am so happy, the OMGNEWTOY factor is at 5!
I love you CCP Greyscale!
--
Alara's Law!
As an online discussion on EVE ships grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving the Dominix approaches 1 |
Jita Alt666
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Posted - 2010.09.17 22:38:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Corozan Aspinall
So now Joe Carebear can have his 2nd account salvage alt follow him in his missions and scoop up all the salvage while he afk's the objectives? Yawn.
Thats the point. Hey all you single account mission runners time to buy a second to get the salvage loot sorted.
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Bill O'Really
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Posted - 2010.09.17 22:40:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Bill O''Really on 17/09/2010 22:45:24
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Verone
So considering the creation of this ship has basically made one of the Role bonus for the Marauder hulls obsolete, will we see a change in Role bonus for them to something that's actually useful?
We did consider Marauders during the design for the Noctis, and we don't feel like the two ships overlap particularly. The only obvious scenario where a Marauder is now markedly less useful is where you're dual-boxing a PvE site that has no additional spawns or risk of aggro switches. We feel that this constitutes a sufficiently small subset of a Marauder's common use cases that it's not a significant issue.
(Based on the assumption that if you're PVEing in a Marauder, you shouldn't be experiencing a significant lag between final NPC killed and final wreck salvaged.)
Hmm, I don't agree with that assessment. The way I mission in my marauder is reel everything into a ball during the mission and come back later with a salvage BC.
As a Marauder's tractor range is 40km, that means that you either have to leave a lot of wrecks beyond that range, or wait for the npc's to come closer which considerable adds to the mission completion times (or approach the wrecks which takes a lot of time as well).
Since I come back in a secondary ship later anyway, coming back in a 60km tractor range Noctis seems a much more preferable option since you can reach pretty much everything right away. In this missioning approach the only advantage a marauder still has over a normal bs is being able to reel in the closeby wrecks on the fly and save the rest for the Noctis when looting.
Of course my Pally also has the benefit of 200% damage to 4 x lazors. But hey, ... the Nightmare does that as well and has more dps anyway. So yeah, that debate seems to have been settled now. Tractor advantage of a marauder compared to faction bs's is kind of obsolete for the way I mission.
Unless ... Marauders get a 60 km tractor bonus as well. Maybe link tractor range to the marauder skill?
I can't see how that would make them unbalanced, personally
/carebear rant
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Hari Markkus
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2010.09.17 22:47:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Jita Alt666
Hey all you single account mission runners time to buy a second to get the salvage loot sorted.
So, even more loot and salvage is going to be coming onto the market, forcing down prices even more. So there is even less reason for me to bother with it now. Good.
CCP, I hope that you are going to apologise to those people in the mission forum who will no longer be able to earn at least 100+M++ ISK+++ per+++ hour+++++ and sometimes more.
Still not happy.
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2010.09.17 22:52:00 -
[39]
The way I've always done it with a Paladin is 1x tractor, 2x salvage and megapulses. Kill everything at under 40km (with some judicious early aggroing to make sure you're not waiting for the next group to enter range), tractor and salvage as you go. There's a few cases with long-orbiting BS and the like that make things a little more tedious, but in the majority of cases I have under five wrecks left when I pop the final NPC. Finish up, warp out and go for the next mission. With this MO there's not a whole lot a Noctis could speed up, even if I was dualboxing.
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Eto LabOne
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Posted - 2010.09.17 22:52:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Eto LabOne on 17/09/2010 22:56:21
Edited by: Eto LabOne on 17/09/2010 22:55:42
Agreed on the Ninja salvage bit.
Please add more CPU, or a bonus to probe cpu useage. so it can fit combat probes and give it the ability to tractor wrecks of people who are not in your fleet.
You hear nothing more in 0.0 ect then people begging the ratters to blue wrecks.
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Shwedagon Paya
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Posted - 2010.09.17 22:56:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Hari Markkus
So, even more loot and salvage is going to be coming onto the market, forcing down prices even more. So there is even less reason for me to bother with it now. Good.
Excellent... cheaper rigs for PvP pilots! 
Strange, though. Mining's becoming less profitable by the day (insurance fraud to blame for that, I suppose), salvage is getting cheaper, apparently some juicy mission loot has been replaced by metal scraps....
Carebear exodus, go!
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Weight What
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.09.17 23:20:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Magic Dragonrider Tao Ball
A sheath without a sword is useless. A mandolin string breaks; attend to internal problems before expanding.
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Pompous, currently trading as "Weight What". |
Bill O'Really
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Posted - 2010.09.17 23:20:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Bill O''Really on 17/09/2010 23:25:04
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
The way I've always done it with a Paladin is 1x tractor, 2x salvage and megapulses. Kill everything at under 40km (with some judicious early aggroing to make sure you're not waiting for the next group to enter range), tractor and salvage as you go. There's a few cases with long-orbiting BS and the like that make things a little more tedious, but in the majority of cases I have under five wrecks left when I pop the final NPC. Finish up, warp out and go for the next mission. With this MO there's not a whole lot a Noctis could speed up, even if I was dualboxing.
Oh dear, CCP Greyscale ...
I'm not sure how much experience you have with missioning with a Pally but the general consensus is that on most Sansha//Bloods missions (for which their damage is optimal) you should use Tachyons. It is one of the few bs's that can easily fit a 'full' rack of those and profit from the sweet, sweet 40km + range with multi frequency crystals and a tracking comp or two.
There might be 'just' a few cases of ships orbiting at 40km but there are also scores of missions with ships that start of way beyond your 40km tractor range but well within your engagement range with Tachs.
Try a lvl 4 Bloodraider Blockade with Tachs for a change and see how that 40 km tractor range is working out for you ;-)
Typically I find myself in the middle of a cloud of wrecks with a 120 km diameter.
All I know is that I will be trading in my Pally for a Nightmare if I will end up coming back in a Noctis anyway.
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2010.09.17 23:28:00 -
[44]
Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 17/09/2010 23:32:35
Horses for courses, I guess. The ~30-60s you lose up front waiting for your first aggro group to close range is IMO more than compensated for by the ~10 minutes you save on total mission time (acceptance to acceptance) by not salvaging on the back end. YMMV, obviously
Edit: I've had extensive arguments with CCP Ytterbium about Megas vs Tachs at sub-40k ranges, and I think it really comes down to how many BS are coming in to Megapulse multi range. I'm open to the idea that Tachs might give you a better overall DPS profile in the 0-40k engagement area, but I don't buy the argument for engaging above 40k if you're optimizing for income per time unit. The efficiency gains from being able to go from completion straight into the next mission, with full loot and salvage, are too big to pass up IMO.
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Osiris Heart
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Posted - 2010.09.17 23:46:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Osiris Heart
Does anybody know what the size of this ship is? I mean will this ship allowed to enter into all mission pockets or it going to be restricted for it as it is restricted for BC, BS and bigger ships? 
CCP Greyscale, I believe you are confident to answer this question, so could you, please?
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.09.17 23:52:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Bill O'Really
I'm not sure how much experience you have with missioning with a Pally but the general consensus is that on most Sansha//Bloods missions (for which their damage is optimal) you should use Tachyons.
That's not the way I fly. "Short" range weaponry so the marauder(s) can tractor stuff to salvage while the fight is in progress. Take on as many missions as possible, head out for an extended deployment in the field. Come back at the end of the night with a hold full of salvage, complete all the missions, go to bed.
Quote:
Typically I find myself in the middle of a cloud of wrecks with a 120 km diameter.
You're doing it wrong. Besides, if you have wrecks spread out that far, a Noctis isn't going to make life any easier for you.
--
[Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Bill O'Really
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Posted - 2010.09.18 00:08:00 -
[47]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 17/09/2010 23:32:35
Horses for courses, I guess. The ~30-60s you lose up front waiting for your first aggro group to close range is IMO more than compensated for by the ~10 minutes you save on total mission time (acceptance to acceptance) by not salvaging on the back end. YMMV, obviously
Edit: I've had extensive arguments with CCP Ytterbium about Megas vs Tachs at sub-40k ranges, and I think it really comes down to how many BS are coming in to Megapulse multi range. I'm open to the idea that Tachs might give you a better overall DPS profile in the 0-40k engagement area, but I don't buy the argument for engaging above 40k if you're optimizing for income per time unit. The efficiency gains from being able to go from completion straight into the next mission, with full loot and salvage, are too big to pass up IMO.
Let us not divert into a discussion about Tachs versus Mega pulse in general but just acknowledge the fact that Tachs are are by far the most used guns on Paladins in lvl 4 Blood and Sansha missions and acknowledge that this is for good reason: you can start popping them buggers right away with high damage which is exactly what you want in order to complete a mission as fast as possible.
Please browse through a typical level 4 mission list and note that except from drone and Angel missions, by far the most missions have groups sitting in range ranging from 40-90 km. With Tachs you start downing bs rats at 70 km with Standard and truly melt them within 45 km with Multi's, with mega pulses you only start tickling them with Radio around 50 km ... Waiting for a Sansha BS to close a 20 km gap to me before I start to do damage is not my cup of tea :)
Waiting for rats to close in, slowboating until the wrecks are in tractor range and waiting for your single salvager to finish churning through the wreck-ball are all undesirable and people will naturally want to avoid this. People try to optimize missioning as much as possible as that is pretty much the only fun aspect to it after having completed them a gazillion times.
Enter the Noctis ...
The benefit the Marauders had over normal ships, which you will read again and again in countless of 'Paladin vs. Nightmare' threads was its tractor range. I may have read the sentence "If you like to salvage/tractor while you mission, choose the Paladin, otherwise go for the Nightmare" a hundred times on these boards by now. It was the main reason to choose it over a Nightmare; it facilitated the whole looting process. Now, it still does that! But The Noctis does it better. So ... for those returning in a dedicated salvager after the mission is complete anyway, they'll be doing it in a Noctis and the reason to fly a marauder over a faction bs for its tractor bonuses are kind of null and void. (At least in the case of a Pally. Not sure if the other marauders have a better faction bs equivalent in the dps department).
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Narisa Bithon
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Posted - 2010.09.18 00:14:00 -
[48]
i can see the noctis making marauders become a rare sight in the near future.
why bother train for a marauder when a faction bs would do just as good. and u can have your alt follow and salvage in a noctis
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Bill O'Really
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Posted - 2010.09.18 00:21:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Bill O''Really on 18/09/2010 00:22:04
Originally by: Mara Rinn
You're doing it wrong. Besides, if you have wrecks spread out that far, a Noctis isn't going to make life any easier for you.
I think you misunderstand me: sitting in the middle of that 120 km cloud means having wrecks up to 60 km's out around you.
Simple maths.
Most of them within the 40km tractor range though. Except for the final spawn with the highest bounty rats which have a really distant orbit.
Anyway, if you like waiting for BS's slowboating your way 20-40 km's until they are in range of your pulses, you are free to do so. ^_^
Often I find myself doing just that: waiting for rats to come just a little closer so I can tractor in their wrecks. Now I don't need to anymore. And I don't need to fly a bs with tractors either. See my point? Paladin v.s. Nightmare
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P1SS0NCCP
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Posted - 2010.09.18 00:34:00 -
[50]
Edited by: P1SS0NCCP on 18/09/2010 00:34:33
Originally by: Bill O'Really
Edited by: Bill O''Really on 18/09/2010 00:22:04
Originally by: Mara Rinn
You're doing it wrong. Besides, if you have wrecks spread out that far, a Noctis isn't going to make life any easier for you.
I think you misunderstand me: sitting in the middle of that 120 km cloud means having wrecks up to 60 km's out around you.
Simple maths.
Most of them within the 40km tractor range though. Except for the final spawn with the highest bounty rats which have a really distant orbit.
Anyway, if you like waiting for BS's slowboating your way 20-40 km's until they are in range of your pulses, you are free to do so. ^_^
Often I find myself doing just that: waiting for rats to come just a little closer so I can tractor in their wrecks. Now I don't need to anymore. And I don't need to fly a bs with tractors either. See my point? Paladin v.s. Nightmare
Prehaps you should consider using a nother ship wonderfully designed with loving care by CCP, the Orca. It has both a generous tank (<3 u ccp) and a vaste tractor beam range.
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Bill O'Really
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Posted - 2010.09.18 00:39:00 -
[51]
Originally by: P1SS0NCCP
Edited by: P1SS0NCCP on 18/09/2010 00:34:33
Originally by: Bill O'Really
Edited by: Bill O''Really on 18/09/2010 00:22:04
Originally by: Mara Rinn
You're doing it wrong. Besides, if you have wrecks spread out that far, a Noctis isn't going to make life any easier for you.
I think you misunderstand me: sitting in the middle of that 120 km cloud means having wrecks up to 60 km's out around you.
Simple maths.
Most of them within the 40km tractor range though. Except for the final spawn with the highest bounty rats which have a really distant orbit.
Anyway, if you like waiting for BS's slowboating your way 20-40 km's until they are in range of your pulses, you are free to do so. ^_^
Often I find myself doing just that: waiting for rats to come just a little closer so I can tractor in their wrecks. Now I don't need to anymore. And I don't need to fly a bs with tractors either. See my point? Paladin v.s. Nightmare
Prehaps you should consider using a nother ship wonderfully designed with loving care by CCP, the Orca. It has both a generous tank (<3 u ccp) and a vaste tractor beam range.
Can it fit 4 x tractor and 4 x salvager? :)
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.18 00:41:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Corozan Aspinall
Originally by: Gravemind GER
Originally by: Joe SMASH
Originally by: Gravemind GER
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=797
The New (Ninja)Looter of the Carebears? 
Discuss.
Actually, this is perfect ANTI-ninja salvager/looter ship. Look at the insane tractor range. Since ninjas cannot tractor your wrecks, that bonus is worthless to them. However if you have a dedicated salvager pilot who follows you in missions, then that guy can clean up without moving on most missions. Fully skilled to ORE Industrial V, you should get 60km out of tractors, then faster cycling salvagers means your salvage pilot will pop a wreck faster.
If anything, this is a direct response to all the whining about ninjas.
That said... I love the Primae hull and I cannot wait to fly this.
Awesome job CCP.
there were whine threads about people who ever wanted this kind of shiptype now they get it.
As long as the Ninjas can use them against the bears wrecks before he can .. its all good.
This ship is crap for ninja looters  . For mission runners on the other hand... It'll be funny watching ninja looters rushing 80 km to grab loot that the Noctis can grab while standing still.
Now all we need is a ninja looter emo-rage-quit thread and it'll all be so sweet .
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Taedrin
Gallente
White Haven Corp
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Posted - 2010.09.18 00:41:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Osiris Heart
Originally by: Osiris Heart
Does anybody know what the size of this ship is? I mean will this ship allowed to enter into all mission pockets or it going to be restricted for it as it is restricted for BC, BS and bigger ships?
CCP Greyscale, I believe you are confident to answer this question, so could you, please?
It's the size of a battlecruiser, but is classified by the game as an industrial. So if your iteron can use the gate, so can the Noctis.
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Originally by: Dr Fighter
"how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.09.18 00:42:00 -
[54]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Verone
So considering the creation of this ship has basically made one of the Role bonus for the Marauder hulls obsolete, will we see a change in Role bonus for them to something that's actually useful?
We did consider Marauders during the design for the Noctis, and we don't feel like the two ships overlap particularly. The only obvious scenario where a Marauder is now markedly less useful is where you're dual-boxing a PvE site that has no additional spawns or risk of aggro switches. We feel that this constitutes a sufficiently small subset of a Marauder's common use cases that it's not a significant issue.
(Based on the assumption that if you're PVEing in a Marauder, you shouldn't be experiencing a significant lag between final NPC killed and final wreck salvaged.)
It's the cargo space that makes Marauders annoying to use for salvaging and looting, even without counting ammo. Using a Hurricane with all cargo expanders and cargo rigs gives you just enough to indisciminantly loot everything in even the largest L4s. Can also fit a Battleship AB to a Hurricane because it has enough powergrid, which more than makes up for any tractor range bonus the marauder or noctis have.
My Warmest Regards.
Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
P1SS0NCCP
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Posted - 2010.09.18 00:42:00 -
[55]
I do not actually know. As I do not mine (which is reportedly a wonderful feature designed by the great CCP) that I have not actually tried the orca out.
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Bill O'Really
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Posted - 2010.09.18 00:55:00 -
[56]
/me is of to bed regretting having trained marauders
I'm going to suicide gank Noctii to compensate my loss of SP. For every 100k invested in my marauder skill, a Noctis must die! (looking at EFT and guesstimating it those buggers should be able to get a buffer well over 25k EHP though, but there will be loads of people flying cardboard fits anyway (if it isn't too expensive).
Originally by: P1SS0NCCP
I do not actually know. As I do not mine (which is reportedly a wonderful feature designed by the great CCP) that I have not actually tried the orca out.
According to EFT it has 3 highslots so it doesn't really compare. Noctis also get a cycle time bonus.
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P1SS0NCCP
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Posted - 2010.09.18 00:58:00 -
[57]
Sorry for the misleading info. Unlike CCP moderators who know an inifinte amount regarding the game and 100% accurate with thier information, I am simply a fallible human.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.09.18 01:05:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Bill O'Really
/me is of to bed regretting having trained marauders
Mine is fitted for PvP, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll ever be used for such.
Have no trouble plowing through L4s in a Hyperion, and it's much, much, cheaper to lose if i ever do something stupid. But so far i've only ever lost one, when some new guy in corp asked for help with a mission, and after i used the gate to warp in discovered it was an L5, much to my dismay.
My Warmest Regards.
Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Ela Hako
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Posted - 2010.09.18 04:30:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Ela Hako on 18/09/2010 04:31:09
If you want to play with it in EFT:
http://eve-files.com/dl/229665 Backup your eft\Data\Skills.dat and Ships.dat file and overwrite them with the contents of this file
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Rovan Stargazer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.18 05:32:00 -
[60]
I'm still 40 days (alltogether) of training away from golem. And i was planing using it more or less just for missions. Soo should i scrap it and take CNR? :)
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