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Take a stance - say no to SP for $

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Icanti	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:28:00 - [1] Edited by: Icanti on 19/09/2010 11:29:22 Crosspost Thoughts?
Abon Caldari Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:31:00 - [2] Originally by: Icanti Thoughts? don`t crosspost.
Icanti	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:32:00 - [3] Originally by: Abon Originally by: Icanti Thoughts? don`t crosspost. heh.... :) My apologies. However this forum is read by many more people than the test server forum and the market forum. I thought posting here might get more of a discussion going. It's a pretty big change.
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:35:00 - [4] That topic is about an option in the test server to trade a plex for a remap, wtf does that have to do with $$ for sp? I'll have to give it to you though, your troll did get me to respond, 4/10. An Ad Baculum argument is when a debater threatens to hit his opponent with Scott Bacula.
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:35:00 - [5] As long as there is a way to get any one item of in-game value for out-of-game money, you can buy anything for it - be it game time, faction ships, or skilled characters. Plus, this doesn't give anyone willing to spend dollars on EVE any advantage over people who don't - it simply lets them get there a little bit faster. In my opinion, nothing game-breaking. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real!
Rematusen Spawns of Thanatos Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:38:00 - [6] spending rl cash for faster skills am i getting this right. if well ok lets do it but remember then the russians and chinese will pwn all [url=http://eve-kill.net?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=409854] [/url]
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:40:00 - [7] Originally by: Rematusen spending rl cash for faster skills am i getting this right. if well ok lets do it but remember then the russians and chinese will pwn all They don't already? An Ad Baculum argument is when a debater threatens to hit his opponent with Scott Bacula.
Pippan Gallente Carebears with Guns	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:40:00 - [8] That's a horrible idea. ____________________ /sig
Khanaris Asgarth Eternium Industries	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:46:00 - [9] Your post is misleading. Spending plex in exchange for a remap is not the same as buying SP with a plex.
Kurfin	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:50:00 - [10] Those with lots of RL cash can already turn cash into plex, into ISK, and use it to purchase a character. I suppose if they only allowed one a year, in addition to the free one, it wouldn't exactly be game breaking. It wouldn't result in more skill points versus following a skill plan based around the same attributes for a year.
Psymn	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:54:00 - [11] I had a nasty remapping accident and ended up one charismatic sob, i endorse plex for remap idea, for me, but no one else :p
Jenny Cameron Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:59:00 - [12] Quote: Take a stance - say no to SP for $ And no ISK or character sales for $ either!

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:01:00 - [13] Like I said in the thread, this idea is one step closer to buying SP for money. Hiding behind the idea to pay with PLEX'es is not a good thing. While it is a good idea for the sake of PLEX'es - the end result is buying your way ahead, even if you as user of said PLEX may have not used real money to buy ahead - real money did get used to create said PLEX. I'm 200% for being able to pay gametime with PLEX. But when it starts to being able to buy SP/remap/items/etc with PLEX (indirectly money) - I'm getting real worried, and I don't see this as the greater good for the community - and game in general. And that is a very sad thing from my pov, EVE always has been very special with the maturity (nevermind trolls) of the community, and the agening of pilots, when you see tendancies of being able to "buy" your way up, that will most def destroy most of what I think makes us pilots special from all other MMO players. I hope this doesn't get any solid ground in the near future. /c Secure 3rd party service \| my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Quixis	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:01:00 - [14] It was on sisi, it was for a REMAP. FFS at least get your facts straight before posting.
Guilliman R Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:02:00 - [15] I say yes to $$ for SP. Short from buying a character (which I don't want to do, I love my guy). For those of us who are good at doing what we do, we end up with massive amounts of ISK and ingame knowledge, but are limited by time, and time alone. I would gladly pay for time with ingame isk to balance it out. Some of us have enough to buy multiple (s)capital ships for example, but still months away from the SP requirement! ------
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Khanaris Asgarth Your post is misleading. Spending plex in exchange for a remap is not the same as buying SP with a plex. Indeed. Fear mongering and crossposting. Should go over well with the mods. My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Jenny Cameron Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Chribba I'm 200% for being able to pay gametime with PLEX. But when it starts to being able to buy SP/remap/items/etc with PLEX (indirectly money) - I'm getting real worried, and I don't see this as the greater good for the community - and game in general. But where lies the thin line - isn't selling plex for ISK and consequently buying a 60 million SP character for that ISK not already way over that line .. ?
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:05:00 - [18] This is way further from buying SP than if you for example could buy a complete character and then spend some RL money to buy your ship. Imagine that, people with lot of money could just start playing eve immediatly with a high SP character with capitals available, while for others that will take years. Oh wait, we already got that.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:10:00 - [19] Originally by: Jenny Cameron Originally by: Chribba I'm 200% for being able to pay gametime with PLEX. But when it starts to being able to buy SP/remap/items/etc with PLEX (indirectly money) - I'm getting real worried, and I don't see this as the greater good for the community - and game in general. But where lies the thin line - isn't selling plex for ISK and consequently buying a 60 million SP character for that ISK not already way over that line .. ? In one way yes, however in the other way no. Seeing as it's one char getting moved to a new owner, in the end it is still just ONE 60m SP char. While buying SP would result in 2+ 60m SP chars. Thus, I see no problem in the sale of characters as it does not generate new pilots, only new owners. /c Secure 3rd party service \| my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:15:00 - [20] Originally by: Guilliman R I say yes to $$ for SP. Short from buying a character (which I don't want to do, I love my guy). For those of us who are good at doing what we do, we end up with massive amounts of ISK and ingame knowledge, but are limited by time, and time alone. I would gladly pay for time with ingame isk to balance it out. Some of us have enough to buy multiple (s)capital ships for example, but still months away from the SP requirement! Im too lazy to look how old you are,but if youve been playing for a few years..I cant understand that you agree to this. I dont like the fact that you can buy characters.I dont like the fact that you can buy isk.What will make eve any different than games like level r?Sure its free..but if you want the better car you gotta pay.Wheres the competition in it? Im sure all the newer players will love it..and some of the older ones who would love to boost an alt(which I think alts suck too)but all these things make eve less unique.Eve isnt about how big your rl wallet is..and thats where this change is taking it. Plex already breaks alot in itself..who in their right mind will grind missions or anything else..when you can just buy isk for cash,and that legaly?Only people who cant afford plex. See where this is heading?
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor Elite	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:19:00 - [21] Originally by: HeIIfire11 See where this is heading? Yes, CCP makes allot more RL money. Thus, they don't see a problem and everyone here can go cry in a pillow. They are running a business, and most rich Empire carebears will love this. All of you can EMO quite and CCP won't even feel the pinch.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:23:00 - [22] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Originally by: HeIIfire11 See where this is heading? Yes, CCP makes allot more RL money. Thus, they don't see a problem and everyone here can go cry in a pillow. They are running a business, and most rich Empire carebears will love this. All of you can EMO quite and CCP won't even feel the pinch. I dont care if they feel a pinch..but I ask you this.Why do you think eve is so big?Because it sets itself apart from other games.The closer you get to being the same old crap..the closer you get to failing.I know they wont feel a pinch..neither will I at that point by quiting.
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor Elite	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:26:00 - [23] And they won't care when you leave. Nor do they care what you are posting now. Bai.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:29:00 - [24] Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 19/09/2010 12:31:33 Originally by: Eternum Praetorian And they won't care when you leave. Nor do they care what you are posting now. Bai. They should care though when they have a game full of people like you..troll on your a whaste of time. Edit:0/10 btw
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:37:00 - [25] eves great because there is no power leveling. The best anyone could get is doing their research and using evemon to plan out a perfect skill tree, buying advantages to skills on a char is bang out of order imo. Buying chars is different, you have the guys name skills history etc etc, so theres many drawbacks.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:39:00 - [26] Tbh, that's even worse than SP for $ ù that's an example of "completely different ruleset of $": if you want to pay cash, you can skip the entire "attributes" mechanic of the game. In this case, the effect is much the same, but the design philosophy is radically different and actually leads down a far more dangerous pathà àso, when can I buy "no warp scrambling for $" ù that's a game mechanic I always found a nuisance. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:41:00 - [27] 1. You can already buy SP with PLEX: by buying better implants. 2. Remapping does not mean buying SP: the high-ranking people at [eveboard] for example are already training with the highest stats (33/26.4). Extra remaps are for the impatient ones or for low-SP-elitists that have to switch training a lot in and want to do it most efficiently. Why not let them pay extra $ for CCP, so that CCP has more money to invest into EVE ?
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:44:00 - [28] Originally by: Tippia Tbh, that's even worse than SP for $ ù that's an example of "completely different ruleset of $": if you want to pay cash, you can skip the entire "attributes" mechanic of the game. You can already do that by the natural remap. Although it's only convenient for people with long training plans, which are usually people with high amount of SP. This option will enable this for the medium SP players as well, for a little extra income for CCP. Don't see anything wrong here, it's not a game breaking feature, like the ones you see today in other MMOs, that introduce item-shops and micro-transactions.
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor Elite	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:47:00 - [29] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/09/2010 12:51:31 Originally by: HeIIfire11 Your A Troll... I am someone who plays the game for what it is and does not whine about possible changes promoting better profits for the game designers. SP is a really big barrier for people and anything that promotes a more efficient skill climb can only be good for the game. On top of that, CCP has mentioned that they do not like the present SP system, but at this point it is too ingrained in the game to change it. So how about let people skill up more efficiently then? 1.) People with more RL money will get more efficient SP per hour yes. But... 2.) People who can play the game well, and amass more ISK in game will ALSO get the same results without the help of RL money supplementing their income. So it is not just the wealthy that is being rewarded, it is also the more skillful game players. And sure the elitist ****'s in 0.0 will hate this, but no one cares about what those blob monkeys think anyway. People with more SP will fly better ships with better mods and that will always make for a better game.
Jenny Cameron Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:51:00 - [30] Edited by: Jenny Cameron on 19/09/2010 12:51:59 Originally by: HeIIfire11 Why do you think eve is so big? Because it sets itself apart from other games. The closer you get to being the same old crap..the closer you get to failing. I know they wont feel a pinch .. neither will I at that point by quiting. Define 'big'. 60k players with 4 accounts each isn't that impressive. If CCP can get a tenfold of that by changing the rules, even with just 1 account each it's pure win. If CCP feels they're still true to their principles and thousands of new people love it, well that's just the way it's going to be.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:52:00 - [31] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o You can already do that by the natural remap. No. Natural remap still ties you to the limits of attribute points ù you can only train one category of skills at full speed for every 365-day period. This kind of change means that if you pay the money, you no longer have any attributes. They make no difference. You always train at max efficiency, for all skills. Natural remaps include choices and consequences ù buying remaps removes both. You're buying absolution from a game mechanic that limits everyone else. It's a horrid idea in every conceivable way. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:56:00 - [32] Originally by: Tippia Natural remaps include choices and consequences ù buying remaps removes both. It's always a choice - spend $15 on a game, or train a little bit slower. Spend $15 a month, or spend 320M ISK. Train for a year, or pay several bilion for a skilled char. Or spend $100, and buy that char instantly. All valid choices. And I would say that a month of gametime is much more valuable than a remap - how long would you have to train so that the difference between a specialized remap and a general one makes up one whole month? ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real!
Icanti	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:57:00 - [33] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian SP is a really big barrier for people In what way? Its only a barrier in the sense of "I want to do this NOW". One of the great features of eve is that it takes time to achieve certain goals. Reducing the length of time it takes to achieve them, just reduces their value.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:00:00 - [34] Originally by: Abdiel Kavash It's always a choice Not in-game ù the examples you cite are all out-of-game, and they stlll don't let you bypass in-game mechanics the way this would. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Jenny Cameron Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:00:00 - [35] Edited by: Jenny Cameron on 19/09/2010 13:02:52 Edited by: Jenny Cameron on 19/09/2010 13:02:41 Originally by: Abdiel Kavash And I would say that a month of gametime is much more valuable than a remap - how long would you have to train so that the difference between a specialized remap and a general one makes up one whole month? If you're specced to per/wil @ 2700 SP/hour and you forgot a few int/mem skills that now go approx @ 1900 SP/hour it's a little over 2 months to make it worthwhile. Anyway, remaps for ISK/$ .. I don't think it will cause a lot of emoragequits even though some may grumble a bit ..
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:02:00 - [36] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/09/2010 13:03:44 Originally by: Abdiel Kavash Originally by: Tippia Natural remaps include choices and consequences ù buying remaps removes both. It's always a choice - spend $15 on a game, or train a little bit slower. Spend $15 a month, or spend 320M ISK. Train for a year, or pay several bilion for a skilled char. Or spend $100, and buy that char instantly. All valid choices. And I would say that a month of gametime is much more valuable than a remap - how long would you have to train so that the difference between a specialized remap and a general one makes up one whole month? I wish for a few more choices. Spend 150$ (or 3bil) and be immune from PVP for month. Its still a choice, yes? Or maybe PLEX-for-ships gift shop. Why bother with player market when you could say chose and get ship instantly? Why have any consequences of your actions. Pay with PLEX and remove -10sec to +10 instantly, now you can have constant fun with piracy and fix sec status everytime you do. Fixing sec status is boring work anyways, yes? It also shows: give people a finger (remap once per year) and they will take whole hand (remap every week).
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor Elite	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:03:00 - [37] Originally by: Icanti Originally by: Eternum Praetorian SP is a really big barrier for people In what way? Its only a barrier in the sense of "I want to do this NOW". One of the great features of eve is that it takes time to achieve certain goals. Reducing the length of time it takes to achieve them, just reduces their value. I have max Per/will so I can do racial cruiser in 20 days instead of 30 days. How does this reduce the "Value" of my achievement exactly? Your post is arranged to make it appear that multiple remaps will create some kind of instant gratification. You are not only incorrect, your post is misleading.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:05:00 - [38] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian I have max Per/will so I can do racial cruiser in 20 days instead of 30 days. How does this reduce the "Value" of my achievement exactly? Your post is arranged to make it appear that multiple remaps will create some kind of instant gratification. You are not only incorrect, your post is misleading. If new shiny toy using mem/int comes out it will take you 30 days not 20 to get to it. Or a remap, but then old toys will take longer. So there are consequences of your actions. With remap-every-day? None.
Jenny Cameron Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:06:00 - [39] Originally by: Deva Blackfire I wish for a few more choices. Spend 150$ (or 3bil) and be immune from PVP for month. Its still a choice, yes? Or maybe PLEX-for-ships gift shop. Why bother with player market when you could say chose and get ship instantly? Why have any consequences of your actions. Pay with PLEX and remove -10sec to +10 instantly, now you can have constant fun with piracy and fix sec status everytime you do. Fixing sec status is boring work anyways, yes? /shrugs You have the option to buy a 60 mil SP character and ships that go with it now if you buy a plex and get ISk for it. I don't see buying remaps as a major or radical change if you compare it to that.
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor Elite	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:11:00 - [40] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/09/2010 13:14:21 If I remaped for max Spaceship command efficiency: Racial Cruiser in 20 days not 30 Then if I spent ISK and decided to go for Drones: Drone Interfacing in 20 days no 30 Assuming all + 5% implants. 40 days is a long time for any Human being to wait for something. This does not even include Tank, Navigation, Tech II Guns and a whole slew of support skills. There is no instant gratification here. And Ninja Edit For Frum Timers Originally by: Deva Blackfire . You are always "best" Only naive people think this with regards to your SP. I don't have time to explain it to you...
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:11:00 - [41] Originally by: Jenny Cameron You have the option to buy a 60 mil SP character and ships that go with it now if you buy a handful plex for rl money and get ISK for it. Not to mention +5 implants for plex/ISK so you train faster already thanks to spending RL money. I don't see buying remaps as a major or radical change if you compare it to that. It's just a minor step. In order to do that, one has to be available. Someone has to build it up from zero, in accordance with the game rules and progression mechanics. This bypasses said rules and mechanics by making attributes and planning in building that character irrelevant. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Jenny Cameron Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:16:00 - [42] Originally by: Tippia In order to do that, one has to be available. Someone has to build it up from zero, in accordance with the game rules and progression mechanics. Well as history has proven, CCP doesn't mind changing game rules and progression mechanics. Quote: This bypasses said rules and mechanics by making attributes and planning in building that character irrelevant. Only if you have unlimited $ which most people obviously don't have.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:18:00 - [43] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/09/2010 13:20:29 Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Originally by: Deva Blackfire . You are always "best" Only naive people think this with regards to your SP. I don't have time to explain it to you... Only idiots dont know what quotation marks mean. But i dont have time to explain it to you. Quote: Only "irrelevant" if you have unlimited $ which most people obviously don't have. Because if that was the case, no-one would be buying plexes in game to exchange it for game time. Why not? I have well enough money IRL to pay for game. But at the same time i have WELL enough ISK to pay-with-plex (breaking 100 bil ISK mark easily). So why should i pay with RL money not isk? To show that i can? That would be stupid.
MARS VICTOR	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:19:00 - [44] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Originally by: Deva Blackfire . You are always "best" Only naive people think this with regards to your SP. I don't have time to explain it to you... You both underestimate greatly how many people EVE has attracted these last few expansions, and is attracting even more so with features like PI and what is coming next year, who simply do not subscriber to that old principle of EVE. They come to EVE, from other MMO's and casual games, and approach EVE on the basis of their experiences elsewhere. Highest level is highest l33t. Go around a few random startup corps or even starter systems, you will quickly see what I mean. EVE's design principles are being touched upon, in light with commercial expansion. No surprise there.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:21:00 - [45] Originally by: Jenny Cameron Only if you have unlimited $ which most people obviously don't have. Not really, unless you intend to flip-flop in your training from one day to the next ù I'd even go so far as to say that the low cost makes it even worseà (And no, bringing it into "then everyone can do it" territory doesn't make the fact that you can buy yourself away from abiding by game mechanics any better.) ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor Elite	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:26:00 - [46] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Only idiots dont know what quotation marks mean Actually, TBH your ranting has now lost me completely. By all means carry on...
Jenny Cameron Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:34:00 - [47] Edited by: Jenny Cameron on 19/09/2010 13:35:37 Originally by: MARS VICTOR EVE's design principles are being touched upon, in light with commercial expansion. No surprise there. Originally by: Tippia (And no, bringing it into "then everyone can do it" territory doesn't make the fact that you can buy yourself away from abiding by game mechanics any better.) Well what can I say? I'll admit I will welcome this option as I've a lot of stuff to train and 300 mil isn't a lot. Those pesky memory skills that won't ever require a whole year so a remap is no option - this will make it a lot easier. EVE has changed a lot over the years. When it was released there was only t1 frigates and cruisers follwed pretty soon and that was it. If the road ahead looked like 5 miles long then, it looks 50 miles by now where a T2 fitted BS is the standard. I find it a logical step that CCP tries to allow you to speed up a little accordingly, whatever the way it is they're doing it.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:35:00 - [48] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/09/2010 13:35:07 Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Originally by: Deva Blackfire Only idiots dont know what quotation marks mean Actually, TBH your ranting has now lost me completely. By all means carry on... http://www.wikihow.com/Detect-Sarcasm-in-Writing
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor Elite	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:39:00 - [49] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/09/2010 13:39:34 Never. Stop. Ranting... Keep shining Moving on now.
MARS VICTOR	Posted - 2010.09.19 13:49:00 - [50] Originally by: Jenny Cameron Edited by: Jenny Cameron on 19/09/2010 13:41:08 Originally by: MARS VICTOR EVE's design principles are being touched upon, in light with commercial expansion. No surprise there. Originally by: Tippia (And no, bringing it into "then everyone can do it" territory doesn't make the fact that you can buy yourself away from abiding by game mechanics any better.) Well what can I say? I'll admit I will welcome this option as I've a lot of stuff to train and 300 mil isn't a lot (although I bet PLEX prices will more than double if this mechanic gets to Tq). Those pesky memory skills that won't ever require a whole year so a remap is no option - this will make it a lot easier. EVE has changed a lot over the years. When it was released there was only t1 frigates and t1 cruisers follwed pretty soon after, and that was it. If the road ahead looked like 5 miles long then, it looks 50 miles by now where a T2 fitted BS is the standard. I find it a logical step that CCP tries to allow you to speed up a little accordingly, whatever the way it is they're doing it. Yes, it is one of the logical steps to take should they want to adjust the scope of the product to become more mainstream, and acceptable to both larger potential groups of subscribers and the big houses in the industry, while engaging on a relatively short term format of widening the commercial scope for enhanced revenue patterns. With subscription curves showing less steady growth and more peak specific growth, why not build on the peaks, rather then the steady growth in revenue.

CCP Zymurgist Gallente C C P	Posted - 2010.09.19 14:22:00 - [51] This topic is about something on the Singularity. Please keep all discussion to the Test Server Feedback forum, like this thread http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1386311. Click Zymurgist Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact Us


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