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Deanto
Gallente GHF Corperation
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Posted - 2010.09.22 22:44:00 -
[1]
The way we currently do it is that everyone mines their own, jetcan, and pays the hauler 15% of what he hauls. Everyone is responsible for keeping track of how much they mine. We all meet back at the station and hauler keeps 15% of the ore or is paid market price for the ore in question. We don't have an orca yet.
How do you split the the ore/profit for your mining ops? What is the rate you'd pay the newbie miner? How do you segment them...by how much they yield per cubic meter or some other way. Do you have a basic formula? Is there a tiered system that you use?
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Halborn
Celtic Technologies Inc.
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Posted - 2010.09.22 23:01:00 -
[2]
The fairest way is to calculate the percentage that each miner is doing an have a set rate for a hauler and a set rate for orca For example Say you had 3 hulks and 1 orca. As the orca gives around 55% yield at max i think the fairest is around 20% of the total op goes to the orca pilot then you split whatever is left three ways.
Another way is to ask for the m3 of each hulk pilot. Work out how long they mined for a total m3 mined then hand out a balanced ore for that amount.
These are quite complex. The easiest is just to have set rates for the hauler and orca like you have then whatever is left if you are mining near enough the same split it equally. ------------------------------
CEO Celtic Technologies Inc. |
Michela
Bosun Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.09.23 07:20:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Michela on 23/09/2010 07:21:52 While my corp doesn't do mining ops now, whne we were larger, we kept it simple.
We gathered all the ore, refine it, calculate current market price at the nearest hub. Then, we paid 90% of the value to the miners and haulers active in the op. (yes, the corp took 10%, we had programs to help folks like loaner mining ships and researched BPOs that members could use).
We'd split up the remaining 90% based simply upon the amount of time someone was present at the op. No need to get complicated and try to compute the exact rate of mining for each person in the op.
A person in an Osprey is spending just as much time as a person in the Hulk. And, more than likely, the extra few million ISK will mean a LOT more to the Osprey pilot that it will the Hulk pilot.
Edited to add: that said, we insisted that people not stay in an Osprey forever. They were expected to actively train their mining skills so that they were on par with the experienced miners. |
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.09.23 08:03:00 -
[4]
I use a spreadsheet. I take the times of each player and then split by the number of players. If everyone does their part, from hauler to Orca pilots, and they do not come with a frigate when they can fly a mining barge, then this is good enough. The amount of skill points one has does not matter. --
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Xanos Blackpaw
Amarr Inadeptus Mechanicus
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Posted - 2010.09.23 09:55:00 -
[5]
Share/hour.
A retriver is worth 1 share. A hauler is worth 1 share. A hulk is worth 2 shares. A Orca is worth 3 shares is he also haul, 2 shares if he just boost. ________________________________________________ Tau - Yeah we suck in close combat. To bad you will never get there. For the greater good!!
Quote: "I love Australia! Our spiders have health bars. |
Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.23 18:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Share/hour.
A retriver is worth 1 share. A hauler is worth 1 share. A hulk is worth 2 shares. A Orca is worth 3 shares is he also haul, 2 shares if he just boost.
Doing ops with 4 accounts, 2 Hulks + Orca (boost) + Bustard (hauler), I really think you need give the hauler a raise. By far the busiest of my accounts during an op is my hauler, while the others can be minimized or AFK.
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Chris Bailey
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Posted - 2010.09.23 19:22:00 -
[7]
Where do you mine?
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.09.23 19:31:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Chris Bailey Where do you mine?
Here and there. --
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Honest BUns
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Posted - 2010.09.23 22:05:00 -
[9]
I mine with my 2 characters and put the ore into my cans and have my 3rd character haul out my stuff. Pretty well how it goes with the rest of my corp. You get what you mined and don't steal from anyone else. Haulers should not be paid 15% - that's just sickeningly high for a very easy job that you can do just as well.
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Dr Chau
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.24 21:08:00 -
[10]
Our corp is designed to help newer players get into industry, so we pay out ops as everyone gets an equal share, including characters hauling and boosting.
3x Hulk 1x Retriever 1x Bestower 1x Orca
Everyone gets 1/6 total ore mined.
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Sky Mart
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Posted - 2010.09.24 21:56:00 -
[11]
I used the mining calculator a bit a long time ago (version 2.4) the author appears to have put a lot of work into it. I searched for it and found a link to version 2.6 less than a month old so should be pretty recent.
http://evevault.ign.com/View.php?view=PlayerArt.Detail&id=74#Files
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Michela
Bosun Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.09.25 00:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dr Chau Our corp is designed to help newer players get into industry, so we pay out ops as everyone gets an equal share, including characters hauling and boosting.
3x Hulk 1x Retriever 1x Bestower 1x Orca
Everyone gets 1/6 total ore mined.
Just like we did ... except the the corp would take 10% off the top. And, would simply pay out ISK. |
Shinde Kudasai
Kudasai Financial Services
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Posted - 2010.09.25 02:12:00 -
[13]
Why does no-one use the log to just directly track who mines how much, who hauls how much, and pay according to that?
I'm not being facetious - really, why not?
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Michela
Bosun Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.09.26 07:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shinde Kudasai Why does no-one use the log to just directly track who mines how much, who hauls how much, and pay according to that?
I'm not being facetious - really, why not?
1. Because in our case it's a CORPORATE mining op. Half the point is to help out the corporation some.
2. Because having the better miners help out the newer miners helps bring about group cohesion. If it's "every man for himself", what's the point of having a group op? Just go mine for yourselves.
As long as people were making progress on their mining and hauling skills, we paid evenly. Those who didn't were talked to. In one case, we invited someone to leave the corp. |
Tivookz
Caldari Long Dong Corp United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2010.09.26 09:01:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Tivookz on 26/09/2010 09:03:19 Edited by: Tivookz on 26/09/2010 09:02:37 When we mine we split it like this:
Everyone gets one share for each account he is mining with no matter if its a retriever, skiff, hulk or if he's tanking and boosting in a rorqual / orca.
This of course assuming that everyone is mining actively throughout the entire op.
Ships that are not a barge or an exhumer dont participate.
Sharing is caring and a corp that splits ore between its members like if the gang was a random pickup group then you're in a crappy corp because a corp where nobody cares for oneanother is not really a corp but rather a "you and me happen to be at the same place at the same time, I dont like you but lets fly under the same flag for convenience."
Tiv __________________________________________________
Hating Cash Craving Productions since oct 15th 2008 |
Michela
Bosun Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.09.26 13:17:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tivookz This of course assuming that everyone is mining actively throughout the entire op.
That's why we split it based on the amount of time spent. Some folks would come late or leave early.
Originally by: Tivookz Ships that are not a barge or an exhumer dont participate.
We even included mining frigates and mining cruisers as long as the people were clearly actively working on their mining or hauling skills.
Originally by: Tivookz ... stuff about sharing and good corp cohesion ...
+1 |
Deanto
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.09.27 00:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Michela
Originally by: Dr Chau Our corp is designed to help newer players get into industry, so we pay out ops as everyone gets an equal share, including characters hauling and boosting.
3x Hulk 1x Retriever 1x Bestower 1x Orca
Everyone gets 1/6 total ore mined.
Just like we did ... except the the corp would take 10% off the top. And, would simply pay out ISK.
Thanks for the feedback so far. So if we use these numbers as an example, what about the newbie ships such as mining frigates and cruisers. Perhaps 0.4 and 0.6 respectively? What share would they get? The goal is for us to get the newbies out and train them while we do this AFK activity.
Since your formula is partly based on a matter convenience (because quite frankly, it is a headache for each person to keep track of their own ore), is it safe to assume that your miners aren't nitpicking how much they're getting that? Because some of them may have more yield per cycle than others do so I'm wondering how you would deal with that concern?
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Dr Chau
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.27 00:54:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dr Chau on 27/09/2010 00:55:35
Originally by: Deanto Thanks for the feedback so far. So if we use these numbers as an example, what about the newbie ships such as mining frigates and cruisers. Perhaps 0.4 and 0.6 respectively? What share would they get? The goal is for us to get the newbies out and train them while we do this AFK activity.
Since your formula is partly based on a matter convenience (because quite frankly, it is a headache for each person to keep track of their own ore), is it safe to assume that your miners aren't nitpicking how much they're getting that? Because some of them may have more yield per cycle than others do so I'm wondering how you would deal with that concern?
Well, we tried to keep it simple, and as it was geared towards helping newer players get into Industry, we didn't give out different amounts based on yield, a Hulk got the same share as a Bantam. It may not seem fair, but to be honest, with a large fleet, the Hulk isn't taking much of a hit (assuming he had to haul his own ore) and the Bantam pilot is getting a TON more than they could by themselves.
Since our ops for new members were in highsec, this is how we set them up:
-Miners spread pretty evenly through the belt (though with good orca bonuses, a hulk can reach nearly the entire belt from the center) so it depletes evenly. -Orca in belt, providing boosts and tractoring full cans and placing them in corp hangar. -Hauler warps to Orca, fills hold from corp hangar, warps to station, and dumps the ore in a Station Container, repeats. -Throughout the entire process, someone is keeping track of time increments (we used 30 minutes). This allowed us to keep track of who joined, and how long they were part of the op, so it was easy to divide. Every 30 minutes you're there, you get a point. Your share = (Total Ore/Total Points)*Your Points
So everyone receives an equal share of the ore based on how long they were part of the op.
Worked well for us.
EDIT: Unless you have an extremely large number of Hulks, a single hauler (I flew rigged Bestower) should have no trouble keeping up with the rest of the op. Always warping to the Orca really increases the hauler's efficiency.
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Deanto
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.09.27 01:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Honest BUns I mine with my 2 characters and put the ore into my cans and have my 3rd character haul out my stuff. Pretty well how it goes with the rest of my corp. You get what you mined and don't steal from anyone else. Haulers should not be paid 15% - that's just sickeningly high for a very easy job that you can do just as well.
Right. But you aren't working with anyone else. It's just you. My situation is for a group of people. I have struggled as to whether the hauler is getting enough (the guy above suggest no), or is getting too much, as you suggested.
Admittedly, it is a very easy job and if you're only 2 jumps away from the hangar bay, then 15% may be too high.
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Talaan Stardrifter
Universal Exports
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Posted - 2010.09.27 08:13:00 -
[20]
When I used to run mining ops we'd use the following:
- Hauler takes 10% of all hauled ore, off the top.
- Corp takes a 10-25% of delivered ore, but only if it's a pre-organised 'corp op'
- Gang link Orca takes 10% of remaining ore
- Miners get a cut of remaining ore based on their time spent and, optionally, their mining rate (or some other metric)
This encourages people to actually haul, and also improve their capacity. Also encourages miners to increase their yields.
The reason we used 10% is it's easy to calculate... just shift+drag the ore to your personal container, and drop the last digit off the number to transfer.
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ForumWarrior
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.09.28 03:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Shinde Kudasai Why does no-one use the log to just directly track who mines how much, who hauls how much, and pay according to that?
I'm not being facetious - really, why not?
Because complicated and nonsensical systems make it easier for corps to tax the living hell out of their membership without people noticing as much.
"We give 1 share for each man-hour-m3 of labor divided by the region average price less corporate needs times your happy-quotient" sounds like you're getting more than "We're keeping 20% of this ****. We're gonna split your 80% with that guy in a badger, making us look good to him. Thanks, ******"
Most corporate mining ops are, quite literally, charity at best (from the members to the corp) - and outright theft at worst (the corp from the members).
It would be more efficient, and more honest, to just say "Everyone go mission for an hour, tax will be at 100%" then just buy the minerals off the market. Hell, you'd probably come away with more minerals, and the members would at least get some salvage for their slave-time.
A real mining op? Everyone mines, the leadership uses the log to track how much. Minerals are bought at Jita buy prices. Everyone gets paid exactly what they mined, minus the amount of boost the Orca provided, which goes to that person.
"But Timmy can only fly a Bestower and wants to come too!"
Tough ****, Timmy. Get your ass in an Osprey. It's like...a day's training.
If your corp does anything less than that, you're punishing the competent, rewarding the lazy, and screwing both for your own profit. You're not a profitable business, you depend on free man-hours of labor.
--- ôThere is a powerful tension in our relationship to technology. We are excited by egalitarianism and anonymity, but we constantly fight for our identity.ö |
Michela
Bosun Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.09.28 10:41:00 -
[22]
Originally by: ForumWarrior If your corp does anything less than that, you're punishing the competent, rewarding the lazy, and screwing both for your own profit. You're not a profitable business, you depend on free man-hours of labor.
One small thing you're forgetting: this is a game and sometimes we just don't feel like running another bloody L4. Relaxing in a cluster of rocks for a couple of hours while we BS and drink beer is a nice change of pace.
If you want everything to be perfectly "fair", go right ahead. In that case, just go solo mine. |
Sampson Dakota
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Posted - 2010.09.28 11:08:00 -
[23]
planned ops with the details of what corp takes up front. If u dont like it dont join.
We show everyone where their taxed money goes to weather its to keep POS's online or for a Ship replacement programme.
Most ops are 100% profit for the person
we have no mandatory ops and no tax either
What we charge for is renting ME and PE slots
Everyone needs to research at some point and we offer those services instead of taking all the isk from alliance / corp members
Seems to work out quite fair and we only do 2 hour ops so the rest of the time they do as they please
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Deanto
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.09.28 15:18:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Talaan Stardrifter When I used to run mining ops we'd use the following:
- Hauler takes 10% of all hauled ore, off the top.
- Corp takes a 10-25% of delivered ore, but only if it's a pre-organised 'corp op'
- Gang link Orca takes 10% of remaining ore
- Miners get a cut of remaining ore based on their time spent and, optionally, their mining rate (or some other metric)
The reason we used 10% is it's easy to calculate... just shift+drag the ore to your personal container, and drop the last digit off the number to transfer.
Ouch. Isn't anything beyond 10% for the corp a bit too much?
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.28 18:08:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Chris Bailey Where do you mine?
Here and there.
I mine there too.
But not here. When you say "fanboi" try to picture a fat man doing burlesque with 2 big ass fans that say CCP on one and HTFU on the other. Because that dude is me. |
Tusen Takk
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund 31ST Reliables Division
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Posted - 2010.10.01 06:42:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Tusen Takk on 01/10/2010 06:45:31 the corp i belong to likes to focus on helping rookies get into hulks and hopefully get most of our members into at least retrievers
so to help rookies out, we have a mining op, and once its done refine it and sell it in Jita. we then divide the profits by the total man hours worked and come up with an hourly wage for each member, regardless of ship. this system is what got me into the game more since i realised that it wasnt populated by complete ****ers, and now i run the mining ops and i always feel good about helping noobs out since i remember being one :D
btw we use a channel that you clock in and out of to keep track of time along with a spreadsheet that does the calculations for us
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Deen Wispa
Gallente GHF Corperation
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Posted - 2010.10.01 16:47:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Michela
Originally by: Dr Chau Our corp is designed to help newer players get into industry, so we pay out ops as everyone gets an equal share, including characters hauling and boosting.
3x Hulk 1x Retriever 1x Bestower 1x Orca
Everyone gets 1/6 total ore mined.
Just like we did ... except the the corp would take 10% off the top. And, would simply pay out ISK.
I disagree that the hauler should get an equal share since the skillset to train for hauling is not as intensive to train for a mining barge.
-----------------
Watch and rock out to our awesome GHF Promo Video Fun and Friendly corp looking for players in Industry and Trade. Join our Open |
Michela
Bosun Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.10.02 03:45:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Deen Wispa
Originally by: Michela
Originally by: Dr Chau Our corp is designed to help newer players get into industry, so we pay out ops as everyone gets an equal share, including characters hauling and boosting.
3x Hulk 1x Retriever 1x Bestower 1x Orca
Everyone gets 1/6 total ore mined.
Just like we did ... except the the corp would take 10% off the top. And, would simply pay out ISK.
I disagree that the hauler should get an equal share since the skillset to train for hauling is not as intensive to train for a mining barge.
And, yet, the hauler's job is essential to getting the operation done. Folks, stop making things so hard. Just split it up evenly based upon the time put in by each member. |
ForumWarrior
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.10.02 04:15:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Michela Just split it up evenly based upon the time put in by each member.
So the guy who spent months training to get perfect mining, invested hundreds of mil for the double mining implants, max rigged his hulk for another coupla hundred mil, carefully scanning each roid and cycling his strips with capacitor recharge to waste no cycle...
...he gets paid the same as the untrained alt with two miner1's slapped on a tormentor, semi-afk?
How do you not see this as punishing competence and rewarding sloth?
"We require folks to not be untrained alts in our corp!!!!"
And Andrew Awesome from example 1 can trust you, no really, you've made absolutely sure - no Ted Terribles from example 2 allowed in your corp to punish him with?
Bull.
Example 2 is, for intents and purposes, indistinguishable from a genuine clueless newb.
And even if example 2 is a clueless newb - your system still encourages no-one to work/invest in improving themselves. Ted Terribles may as well train up his missioning/pvp skills - as long as he shows for your ops, he's making the same cut you're stealing off Andrew Awesome.
--- ôThere is a powerful tension in our relationship to technology. We are excited by egalitarianism and anonymity, but we constantly fight for our identity.ö |
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