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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
510
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Posted - 2012.07.31 18:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Thomas Kreshant wrote:
TLDR
CCP killed FW pvp and made it a farming game where only the offensive guy plays.
Also trying to eat so it's a bit rambly and probably doesn't make much sense.
Good post, actually - loosely following FW after having had a character in it a couple of years ago, I considered putting a character there again, but reconsidered after reading about all the changes. All that chest beating from either side is quite ridiculous. Plex Farmers joined Minmatar first because: - There is bigger demand for Minmatar Mods and Ships - Offensive plexing can be done in an alt worth barely a couple hours of training. Now they join Amarr, because they've run out of offensive plexes on the Minmatar side - you need some tanking capailities and a few more days of training, but it's still easier and less skill-intense than running militia missions in a stealth bomber. Not to mention that every faction warrior in it for the ~gudfites~ appears to have a plexing alt in the opposing militia, whilst moving his main to the other theatre because he can't dock anywhere in his own. I'm genuinely interested in what CCP/Hans thought these changes would lead to, if not the current situation - it's not like people have not warned about this happening.
Paying characters to defensive plex does not pvp create. The problem is not that the focus is on offensive plexing. Defensive plexing requires no guns either! The problem is that plexing always has been most efficiently done in pve ships and avoiding pvp. CCP didn't do anything to change this. They just added consequences.
To be fair to ccp and hans, the players were crying for "consequences" and glossed over the fact that plexing is really a pve game. Lots of people said if there are consequences then we will pvp for plexes. Only a few people realized that adding consequences to a pve system will just create farmville and not really improve things. But we were in the, often despised, minority.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
510
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Posted - 2012.07.31 20:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:chatgris wrote:Salicaz wrote:Large Collidable Object wrote:
I'm genuinely interested in what CCP/Hans thought these changes would lead to, if not the current situation - it's not like people have not warned about this happening.
Ironically this was CCP "fixing" FW....I really hope they don't try to fix it again. First off - I don't think Hans had any part in what we see now, didn't he join the CSM after all these design decisions were pretty much made? And secondly - CCP has made FW SO DAMN GOOD. Could it be better? Sure. Have they made HUGE improvments? YES! I'm Minmatar militia, and yes Nulli are rolling our occupancy, but there is a FANTASTIC amount of pvp to be had. There's people in frigates everywhere - CCP finally made a version of FW that gave nullsec alliances a reason to leave their huge blobs and go into size restricted plexes. Which means a HUGE population boost for FW, and TONS of fights to be had. I remember pre-inferno: Caldari militia had all but given up, there was nothing to shoot at in lowsec but neutrals here and there. The same few bittervets had been shooting the same few bittervets for years. Before inferno came out - I had cancelled both of my accounts and one had already expired. I grudgingly logged in post inferno to find ORANGE, ORANGE EVERYWHERE! FW is so much better now because they gave incentives for people to come to militia. I mean seriously, there's a *whole nullsec alliance* of about 1800 members rolling around doing their best to take occupancy, and that means a dispersion of small ship power. Living a few jumps from an 1800 member FW alliance interested in plexing is HEAVEN. And it's because of the incentives! Eh. The NullSec alliances aren't coming to fight. They're coming to get rich ....
I think he agrees that is their motivation. His point is it leading to lots of fights in plexes. I still have some ships up in otosella so I will be roaming around there too. Might as well go where the pvp is.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
510
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Posted - 2012.07.31 20:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Xuixien wrote:chatgris wrote:
First off - I don't think Hans had any part in what we see now, didn't he join the CSM after all these design decisions were pretty much made?
And secondly - CCP has made FW SO DAMN GOOD. Could it be better? Sure. Have they made HUGE improvments? YES!
I'm Minmatar militia, and yes Nulli are rolling our occupancy, but there is a FANTASTIC amount of pvp to be had. There's people in frigates everywhere - CCP finally made a version of FW that gave nullsec alliances a reason to leave their huge blobs and go into size restricted plexes. Which means a HUGE population boost for FW, and TONS of fights to be had.
I remember pre-inferno: Caldari militia had all but given up, there was nothing to shoot at in lowsec but neutrals here and there. The same few bittervets had been shooting the same few bittervets for years.
Before inferno came out - I had cancelled both of my accounts and one had already expired. I grudgingly logged in post inferno to find ORANGE, ORANGE EVERYWHERE!
FW is so much better now because they gave incentives for people to come to militia. I mean seriously, there's a *whole nullsec alliance* of about 1800 members rolling around doing their best to take occupancy, and that means a dispersion of small ship power.
Living a few jumps from an 1800 member FW alliance interested in plexing is HEAVEN. And it's because of the incentives!
Eh. The NullSec alliances aren't coming to fight. They're coming to get rich via exploitation of (still somwhat dodgy) FW mechanics. Goons did it with the LP rewards from ship kills, and now Nulli are doing it by holding systems in perpetual Vulnerability so they can farm them for infinite LP before flipping, upgrading, and cashing out. The solution to this is simple and possibly two fold: 1) Vulnerable systems do not award LP for offensive plexing. and/or 2) Systems that are Vulnerable for more than 24 hours auto-flip at the next DT. This would mean that pvp'ers in the faction with the least amount of plex farmers will never be able to earn isk for pvp. Number of plexers will directly relate to number of systems held and the losing side will never be able to accrue enough systems for decent payout. Auto flipping would be the worst idea and would negate one of the only two balancing effects in the current mechanics, the ability to stack up systems (the other being no lp for defensive plexing). Your system would go further down the road to defeating a faction, something that should not be desirable since it will result in member churning and a pure alt farm with no realistic opposition. People were making ISK just fine before vulnerable systems were being farmed.
Not really. Amarr was making no isk. The reason amarr got back in the game was due to no lp for defensive plexing and the fact that systems don't automatically flip.
I think your first solution is ok. But your second proposal is bad.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
548
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Posted - 2012.08.15 12:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Thomas Kreshant wrote:Andiedeath wrote:
I seem to remember there were only a few vulnerable systems before Nulli joined...
This is both the correct number of the systems and very fitting isn't it interesting how people always seem to remeber what suits them? That is why it was documented. We also need to remember that much of the warzone was heavily contested and Nulli just pushed those systems to vulnerable. Nulli helped a little in plexing. But they also destroyed our efforts to go to T5 and by that might have sealed Amarrs fate. We will never get the alt farming army needed make a difference in the sov war.
Nulli helped a bit but then they started just mass farming systems that were already vulnerable - which was really no help. I'm thinking todifraun was 7000% contested.
I think we can push to tier 5 again for the same reasons the strategy worked the first time. Yes it will take longer but just plan on that.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
548
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Posted - 2012.08.15 13:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:^^ We will defend metro, and without nulli on that side I can guarantee that you wont have an easy time doing it. We will make sure of that
I never said it would be easy. It wasn't easy with nulli. Whether we can do it remains to be seen.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
548
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Posted - 2012.08.15 14:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Cearain wrote:kraiklyn Asatru wrote:^^ We will defend metro, and without nulli on that side I can guarantee that you wont have an easy time doing it. We will make sure of that I never said it would be easy. It wasn't easy with nulli. Whether we can do it remains to be seen. Why on earth would you want to do try and plex minmatar systems back up again? If these systems are traded back and forth as people/farmers try and get T5 cashouts then everything that CCP have setup with the current FW system looks rosy and to be working just fine. If instead everyone piles on the Minmatar side with alt characters and abuses the hell out of the system you'll make money to fund your pvp and either CCP will be pushed into introducing a better version of the sov system or alternatively they'll simply nerf the living daylights out of the income and that will get rid of the farmers that way.
Because the actual tier system is fine. Its important to correctly identify the problem.
The problem is that plexing is most efficiently done by warping away. Once that is fixed by notifications and possibly a timer automatically counting down (if you warp away when an enemy lands on grid) the system will actually be great.
We already did the same system with no rewards. We did that for a few years and it wasn't any better. Nerfing rewards will just return us to that previous broken state not really improve fw.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
548
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Cearain wrote:
Because the actual tier system is fine. Its important to correctly identify the problem.
The problem is that plexing is most efficiently done by warping away. Once that is fixed by notifications and possibly a timer automatically counting down (if you warp away when an enemy lands on grid) the system will actually be great.
We already did the same system with no rewards. We did that for a few years and it wasn't any better. Nerfing rewards will just return us to that previous broken state not really improve fw.
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
lol notifications.... getting spammed to death by people doing mulitple plexes in 50+ systems all at the same time..
It sounds good to me. We would have pilots split up and fighting in 50+ systems. If they don't want to leave the blob and fight throughout the warzone - well then I guess they will lose sov. At least it would be up to them if they want to fight for sov or not. Now with alts hiding everywhere plexing there is no option to fight.
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
And timers counting down would make zero difference as Amarr doesn't compete anywhere close when it comes to the abiltiy to farm plexes so sooner or later (sooner) the defense fails and you lose the systems anyway it's just a time game.
You are right most systems will eventually change hands. But this is good. This should not be stagnant like null sec where a system will sit in the same groups hands forever to be farmed. Having a systems change hands over time is good for faction war.
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
If CCP really fixed the things they should i.e. systems perma stuck at vulnerable then all that would occur with the current Teir system and mechanics would be Minmatar at T5 forever and Amarr lucky we can't go T0
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you proposing a fix other than nerfing rewards? Becasue the no rewards didn't work, we tried that for years. Adding or removing rewards is not the answer. Making plexing a pvp mechanic is.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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