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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.01.01 20:44:00 -
[1]
I don't think there are many people out there who'd disagree with me when I say the current tech II BPO "lottery" has been a mistake from day one.
Here's an example of why it's been such a poor way of handling tech II:
 Originally by: Maggot
Its just bad luck (but yes it still sucks). I have had 6 BPOS from agents, 1 since exodus, and I never ever run R&D missions.
I have found the best luck comes from the general categories with no multiplier. I only had level 3 in the categories I have had success with.
Good luck.
There are people out there who've gained 100k+ research points, have invested millions of isk into research project management skillbooks, have paid the prices for homeless/science graduates/miscellaneous hard to get agent requests and received zero, zip, nada, www.sweetfa.co.uk "breakthrough" offers.
Do we have any inkling of how the Dev Team responsible for tech III bpo release are going to change this, if at all?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2005.01.01 20:49:00 -
[2]
With any luck they'll only be accessible in the pirates honeworlds and be alliance property from the get-go.
Convert Stations
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CmdrRat
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Posted - 2005.01.01 21:47:00 -
[3]
Right now Tech II is the cutting edge, some people win, some people lose, just like the cutting edge in real life. I'd like to see the current system stay in place for the next 3 moths or so then over the next 6 to 12 have more of the currnet tech II BPOs dropped. That would simulate real life, few people have something at the start and over time it becomes standard.
That way we the lucky winners for the tech II cap rechargers can make thier money back but we don't have to live with 15 mill isk mods forevery.
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Except for Ending Slavery, Fascism and communism, War Has Never Solved Anything |
Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2005.01.01 21:53:00 -
[4]
Libertas Enterprises has a total of nine R&D agents working full time. These are Level II agents as most of us hate doing agent running and didn't want to go further. Now we've started again to get the Level III.
In six plus months, tons of skillpoints and millions of isk we've gotten exactly ONE blueprint offer from an agent (and this was about a month ago). We took it and are still trying for another.
All in all I have to rate the experience of R&D as a complete waste of time. In my view even using agents for R&D is a foulup. Agents should have NOTHING to do with research. There needs to be an actual career track for "Researcher" in this game. New skills introduced and "experiments" you can conduct. This is how I envision it.
1. You get special "Researcher" skills. These are far beyond the skills required even for current R&D research. Getting them means you sacrifice getting ANY other skills. You focus on "research" only.
2. You use labs (which will be fixed someday I pray) to conduct "experiments". To conduct these experiments you have to contribute materials produced by POS and other rare market items. You put all this into a lab and hope something comes of it.
3. The outcome from an experiment could be one of several possibilities.
- You get an actual BPO for something Tech III (very very rare like 1 in 10m chance rare).
- You get a BPC for something needed to produce a Tech III BPO (more likely like 1 in 100 chance rare). You could produce a handful of a particular items (I call these "puzzle pieces").
- You get nothing at all (most likely).
In other words if you do your research you might get a "piece" of the T3 puzzle (#B. above). You'd need to do more and more experiments to get more and more "pieces". You could for example get more then one piece of T3 building blocks and trade them or sell them (profit there). Only when you get all the "pieces" required could you do a T3 experiment.
4. As you work you get more and more "pieces" to use for a final experiment for T3. When you get all the pieces required you can put those in the lab and try for a breakthru. The odds for that could be like 1 in 100.
5. To make this work CCP would have to release a "tree" showing what BPO are available for breakthrus and the "pieces" (from other research) needed to try for each BPO.
Conclusion:
In other words you'd have an actual Researcher "job". You'd have researchers dedicated only to research and nothing else. You'd have it so not everyone can have a research alt because of the training involved but rather we'd see dedicated Research experts who do nothing else. You'd have a way for Researchers to keep busy doing experiments trying for the "pieces" needed to do a T3 experiment. Then you'd have the final "grand experiment" where they try for the breakthru. If they fail they start over. If they succeed its a REAL BREAKTHRU and not just some stupid reward for doing enough stupid agent missions.
Calladen Nimitz
Researcher
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Sorja
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Posted - 2005.01.01 22:58:00 -
[5]
Agents have to give BPCs, not BPOs.
Problem solved.
/me still trying to find a Cerberus which isn't to be found on market, not even talking about the price...
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PreTender
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Posted - 2005.01.01 23:09:00 -
[6]
i myself have 5 agents with over 100k r&d points no bpo offer yet and i got atleast 1r&d agent since they started with this (all lvl 3 / 1 best lvl 2)
also know of 2 other people who have both 4 agents and over 100k points still nothing
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http://www.eve-extra.com |
flummox
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Posted - 2005.01.01 23:19:00 -
[7]
i've got just over 4000 R&D points. still no offers. i'm honked off !!
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
Ulendar
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Posted - 2005.01.01 23:24:00 -
[8]
CCP don't seem to be very fast at fixing things...
If a certain item is being produced with 3467687678796873873978676897% profit then tha is a clear indication that there are not enough bpo's in circulation and more should be dropped..
Cap rechargers, assault, heavy assault to name just a few...
The lotto system obviously has its flaws and a much better system could be used imho. I mean, why would anyone use such a system as this one which basically has 0 intelligence...
The avaerage item database has more inteligence then the agent lottery...
Reward people based on rp, and reward then with a bpo that is valued equally...
that a nub on his first r&d mission should get a heavy assault bpo while a person with 100k rp gets a cap flux coil II bpo is totally rediculous.
Why dont they make it so 2k rats have a chance of dropping uber dread guirista loot?
Why dont they make it so there is a chance that a belt full of ark spawns in a 1.0 nubie system?
They don't, they wouldn't... so why on earth should the r&d system be that way??
Originally by: cashman
It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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MooKids
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Posted - 2005.01.01 23:26:00 -
[9]
I always thought it was kind of interesting that I got offered a Prototype Cloaking Device I BPO the day after the Scorpion I had for 8 months was finally destroyed by m0o and I was real short on cash before that. Maybe there is a secret conspiracy that distributes them and the lottery is the cover story  .
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CCP can patch away bugs, but they can't patch away stupidity. |
Soren
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Posted - 2005.01.02 06:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
With any luck they'll only be accessible in the pirates honeworlds and be alliance property from the get-go.
Dumbest thing I've heard.
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2005.01.02 07:31:00 -
[11]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 02/01/2005 07:33:40
There should be a well-publicized, NPC auction page with an eBay type system, and the winner would have their cash just deducted by a GM
The existing skills and agent systems would be to reverse engineer illegal limited run bpcs of tech 2 and tech 3 items
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Serilla
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Posted - 2005.01.02 08:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ulendar
Reward people based on rp, and reward then with a bpo that is valued equally...
that a nub on his first r&d mission should get a heavy assault bpo while a person with 100k rp gets a cap flux coil II bpo is totally rediculous.
Why dont they make it so 2k rats have a chance of dropping uber dread guirista loot?
Why dont they make it so there is a chance that a belt full of ark spawns in a 1.0 nubie system?
They don't, they wouldn't... so why on earth should the r&d system be that way??
lol so true
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Luc Boye
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Posted - 2005.01.02 08:26:00 -
[13]
Just make it so that BPO you get from agent is unique for 3 months, and then introduced on market.
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2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
Harliquin
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Posted - 2005.01.02 08:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
I don't think there are many people out there who'd disagree with me when I say the current tech II BPO "lottery" has been a mistake from day one.
Er yeah I'd quite like to disagree, the system may not be perfect but like most things in eve the dev's have thought of a way to remove the 'level grind' out of a system - train your skills find an agent then you go off and do something more interesting - I for one really appreciate that.
Oh and lets not mention its one area where a small or 1 man corp has as much chance as any mega corp? - no lets not mention that at all.
And as for the cornering the market well hey if anyone has managed to do that fair play to them - why is it with this so called 'PvP centric' game and player driven economy if anyone undertakes economic PvP people scream foul? - when is life ever supposed to be fair? - don't like the price of an item don't buy it.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.01.02 08:57:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Harliquin
Er yeah I'd quite like to disagree, the system may not be perfect but like most things in eve the dev's have thought of a way to remove the 'level grind' out of a system - train your skills find an agent then you go off and do something more interesting - I for one really appreciate that.
That is all well and good if it works properly but what about those who have, every day, taken a break from their other Eve activities, travelled X number of jumps to perform their R&D missions, paying out X amount of isk for homeless/science graduates etc, and have done this from day 1 of R&D agents, without receiving a single offer?
Should their chances not be greatly increased for dedication to the cause? Research in shouldn't be all about all about luck - it should be about working hard and dedication. The luck factor needs to take into account the difference between those who do the missions and those who do not. I'm not saying that doing missions for a year guarentees you a BPO. I'm simply saying that NOT doing a R&D mission for a year guarentees you won't.
Originally by: Harliquin
Oh and lets not mention its one area where a small or 1 man corp has as much chance as any mega corp? - no lets not mention that at all.
Funny, that. It's quite well known that CCP regard Eve, now, as a game for groups and alliances yet, the most important facet of research, remains equally open to the solo player AND doesn't even require any elite skills to play solo unlike most other jobs in Eve.
Originally by: Harliquin
And as for the cornering the market well hey if anyone has managed to do that fair play to them - why is it with this so called 'PvP centric' game and player driven economy if anyone undertakes economic PvP people scream foul? - when is life ever supposed to be fair? - don't like the price of an item don't buy it.
I wasn't making this argument, however, I will just say that the "unfairness" of the BPO distribution has made it hard for people to feel BPO monopoly is fair at all.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Zen Later
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Posted - 2005.01.02 09:34:00 -
[16]
Originally by: BobGhengisKhan
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 02/01/2005 07:33:40
There should be a well-publicized, NPC auction page with an eBay type system, and the winner would have their cash just deducted by a GM
The existing skills and agent systems would be to reverse engineer illegal limited run bpcs of tech 2 and tech 3 items
Prolly one of the better solutions I've read or heard of.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.01.02 09:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: BobGhengisKhan
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 02/01/2005 07:33:40
There should be a well-publicized, NPC auction page with an eBay type system, and the winner would have their cash just deducted by a GM
The existing skills and agent systems would be to reverse engineer illegal limited run bpcs of tech 2 and tech 3 items
Problem with that idea, Bob, is that those already vastly rich from tech II bpo/start game imbalances, will win every time.
I'd still like "luck" to be a factor in the tech III bpo handouts but not to the degree where hard work doesn't affect your luck.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Synex
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Posted - 2005.01.02 09:50:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Harliquin
Oh and lets not mention its one area where a small or 1 man corp has as much chance as any mega corp? - no lets not mention that at all.
Actually, thats not quite true - A corp with 100 people running research projects is 100 times more likely to get a BPO than a single person. The chances are still rediculously small though.
BPs should be released in a variety of different ways, so that all of Eve's populace can get access to them, not just agent runners. Some ideas:
Deadspace Rewards
Say at the end of a level 4 complex, you get a 5-run BPC of a low-end module, the higher the rating of the complex, the better the BPC. Completely random drop of BPC but NO chance of getting a BPO (to easily repeatable).
Agent Rewards
BPCs for LPs is a good way to go. 'nuff said.
Exploration
This would give a use for all those little 'Serpentis Outposts' and things lying around. Release a news item that the Serpentis are working on some new secret technology, and scatter lots of bits around. Collect the bits and turn them into an agent / research them yourself to get a BP.
POS
POS! POS! POS! Slam a Tech 2 BPO in a POS, throw money at the POS for a long time, and every day the chance it'll turn into a Tech 3 BPO gets higher. Better BPOs (ships etc) take longer, or cost more.
Reverse Engineering
This should be costly and have a high rate of failure. And if it produces a BP, it should either be a low-run BPC or a really really crap BPO. To start with, the mineral requirement should be 100x what they should be, and you'd have to ME/PE research it for a long time to get it to the level of an ordinary BPO.
There are just a few ideas i've come up with in about 10 minutes, surely the devs, who have weeks to think about this can come up with something better than that.
Covering such a wide range of bases would provide new and interesting GAMEPLAY, not just a bunch of new ships and some money-sinks you can anchor by a moon.
*grumble grumble*
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.01.02 09:53:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Exploration
This would give a use for all those little 'Serpentis Outposts' and things lying around. Release a news item that the Serpentis are working on some new secret technology, and scatter lots of bits around. Collect the bits and turn them into an agent / research them yourself to get a BP.
That's probably the sweetest idea of all - bringing the "explorer" feeling back into Eve
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.01.02 10:13:00 -
[20]
I say remake it in the style of the new loyalty point offer system. That would guarantee people would actually have to work for the agent, and would prevent stupid distribution of BPO's. Add in some T1 BPO's, limited run T2 BPC's to the system, and you would have the real choice to be a "scientist" instead of "guy who never visits his agent unless the agent has something for him".
Whatever they do anything is better then the current lottery system, which has to be the most boring and player effortless system ever.
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Sister Immacolata
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Posted - 2005.01.02 10:54:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Quote:
Exploration
This would give a use for all those little 'Serpentis Outposts' and things lying around. Release a news item that the Serpentis are working on some new secret technology, and scatter lots of bits around. Collect the bits and turn them into an agent / research them yourself to get a BP.
That's probably the sweetest idea of all - bringing the "explorer" feeling back into Eve
Yeah, that gets my vote. It is as if CCP has run out of original ideas. All they can do now is to twist knobs, push levers and oil their machinery. They couldn't come up with Fun New Gameplay even if their lives depended on it I'm afraid.
. . . Awaiting more and hi-bit rate music - with bated breath ... |
PaulAtreides
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Posted - 2005.01.02 11:15:00 -
[22]
Edited by: PaulAtreides on 02/01/2005 11:17:23
I think the best and easiest way to fix the current lottery, for you to have a higher chance of winning, they should square the amount of research points.
So...
If you have 50k research points, you should get 50,000¦(50,000*50,000 = 2,500,000,000) tickets in the lottery. This will expand the chances for people with higher research points exponetially of actually getting a print. Then you will find actually having a lot more points in research will actually do something for you.
Want to work for me? |
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.01.02 11:16:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sister Immacolata
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Quote:
Exploration
This would give a use for all those little 'Serpentis Outposts' and things lying around. Release a news item that the Serpentis are working on some new secret technology, and scatter lots of bits around. Collect the bits and turn them into an agent / research them yourself to get a BP.
That's probably the sweetest idea of all - bringing the "explorer" feeling back into Eve
Yeah, that gets my vote. It is as if CCP has run out of original ideas. All they can do now is to twist knobs, push levers and oil their machinery. They couldn't come up with Fun New Gameplay even if their lives depended on it I'm afraid.
Scavenger hunts are not new, and it has already happend in EVE at least once with the Jove ambassador event. They just need a system that *isnt* like buying tickets in the lottery.
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Lowlayer
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Posted - 2005.01.02 13:54:00 -
[24]
Seemes to me most of the complains centre around the seemingly impossibility of obtaining a bpo. All the posts about having 5M rp and still no bpo or whatever are I think missing the point. That is whatever system is in place, it must be such that only a few people actually receive a bpo. Therefore, most people don't get a bpo and some of those may be unhappy about it.
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Prototype 00
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Posted - 2005.01.02 15:02:00 -
[25]
I dont know why you lot are thinking about tech III, it isnt going to happen, as currently anyone new to the game *can* kill more experienced players even with less skill points and the more experianced player flying a tech II ship, if we have tech III ships its IMPOSSIBLE for this to happen, tech III will just create to much of an insane gap between people who have played for a year and those that have only played for a month.
newb convos a player with a shiny tech 3 ship:
NewPlayer: Wow how long does it take before i can fly one of those!!11
ExpPlayer: Sorry take at least 1 and a half years just to train the basic skills, by then the game will have stoped being active and you will have quit 3 months before-hand due to bordom.
NewPlayer: Oh...Damn
Tech III is NOT going to happen. Period.
Arrggghhh the PieRats are a'comin
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The Sloth
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Posted - 2005.01.02 15:05:00 -
[26]
Here's your inkling Josh...
Originally by: Papa Smurf
Research Agents - will not be changing for the moment. It is my hope that the agent offer system will prove to be a proper channel for agent research services in the future. The Agent Offer system addresses many of the shortcomings of the research system and is deeply rooted in discussions about the research system found far down in the bowels of this forum (initiated by Morkt Drak, if my memory serves me correctly)
Originally by: Papa Smurf
If the research system does end up in the offer system, odds are that it would have some of the following characteristics, taking Miner III as an example.
1. An offer template is created that allows you to buy a Miner III for a huge amount of LPs, making player manufacturer prices seem like a real bargain in comparison. (Note: this offer is primarily of value when there are no manufacturers).
2. An offer template is created that allows you to acquire a Miner III limited run BPC for a ridiculous amount of LPs, making player manufacturer prices seem fair in comparison.
3. An offer template is created that allows you to acquire a Miner III BPO for a ludicrous amount of LPs. This offer template is only dished out a fixed amount of times, creating a small number of player manufacturers. Something cool (requiring alot of design work) is done to make sure that this is done fairly and takes advantage of player's existing investment in research related skills and doesn't nullify or reduce the value of current research points..
4. Some form of "breakthrough" concept has often been discussed for research. An option within the agent offer system would f.ex. be that a few offer templates are made that dish out things such as "Mechanical Engineering Papers", and the actual Miner III BPO offer would be a crafting offer where you bring X papers to the agent and get a BPO in return.
In any case, this is pure future stuff.
Both taken from here.
The Sloth.
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Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2005.01.02 16:50:00 -
[27]
They are probably going to be a pos thing or something.
What annoys me is they obviously forget the 2nd batch of BPO's. Oveur said in a dev chat there was like 23 BPO's for each t2 item.
Where the hell are they. There is like 5 or something for the Deimos. Hence stoopid prices.
And yes we should be able to get BPC's easier.
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Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2005.01.02 17:56:00 -
[28]
Quote:
4. Some form of "breakthrough" concept has often been discussed for research. An option within the agent offer system would f.ex. be that a few offer templates are made that dish out things such as "Mechanical Engineering Papers", and the actual Miner III BPO offer would be a crafting offer where you bring X papers to the agent and get a BPO in return.
I like the idea of having the player actually be involved in the creation of a new BPO, not just serving the role of a gopher runner for agents.
How about?:
1) have agents give out "research frameworks" which can be put into a lab slot and have a chance of coming up with a breakthrough.
2) The skill of the player (not the agent) in a given field, like laser physics, combined with the players research skill rating, could influence the outcome of a successful research project. Base chance could be like 10% + 5% of the players skill, for example, with the obvious maximum of 60% chance. Even if you had max skills, you could fail.
3) This could be done at "private" lab facilities also, as in POS.
Just a few thoughts.
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Exarch
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Posted - 2005.01.02 18:55:00 -
[29]
The T2 bpos are supposed to be rare, so everybody will not be able to have one. If everyone had them, they would be as worthless as T1 production.
Agent runners and miners who pay no attention to the market would force the price under the market mineral rate. Mining for hours and selling the product cheaper then you could get for the mineral inputs is just crazy.
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Sphalerite
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Posted - 2005.01.02 19:24:00 -
[30]
Whichever dev designed the POS moon mining/component stuff for exodus should be put in charge of player run research.
Instead of running trash, killing rats or just sitting there hoping to get lucky, research should be a hugely complex player run system. There is an entire portion of this game that is missing which can and should be the largest part of Kali.
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