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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.10.06 16:24:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Illwill Bill /me scurries off to find a dinosaur MMO. Will contract stuff if/when I leave.
Good news : there is at least one. Well, sort of, anyway. It's called "Entropia Universe". And it's quite old, it was called "Project Entropia" before
Bad news : it's F2P and 100% microtransactions And sadly, on average (across the entire playerbase, that is) you can not even "break even" (economically speaking), you'd have to keep pumping cash in to keep playing... effectively paying probably more than a regular sub in the long run _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Buck Marui
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.10.06 16:27:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Buck Marui on 06/10/2010 16:32:11
Originally by: Akita T Unless you have a poll with at least 10k valid votes, a large majority of it claiming they totally hate the idea, you can't even begin to claim it's against the community's wishes. I, for one, totally welcome this idea, and quite a few other players surely do too. It's by far NOT a clearcut case of "community says no". And even if it would be against the community's wishes (which is DOUBTFUL), it's not like it's the first thing CCP has ever done that wasn't particularly popular. So the only semblance of a good reason to quit over it is that it is in your eyes a step towards "significant effect of micropayments on gameplay". Which, for now, IT ISN'T.
I'm sorry I didn't feel like I needed to clarify my personal views for others, "I" dislike the direction CCP are taking, therefore "I" am deciding to leave, I don't care about your opinion on the matter, I don't care that you like the idea and are willing to use it, I don't doubt for a minute there are people willing to use and even abuse this concept, there will always be people willing to spend inordinate amounts of money on a computer game, this is simply a fact of MMO's, however I am not one of these people and I do not look forward to the idea of playing alongside/against these people.
I am not asking that the rest of the playerbase leave with me, nor am I trying to make a point in leaving, you are simply being overly defensive.
There was a time that CCP would never have implemented or even thought about implementing something like this without the communities input first, that time has past.
You also make the assumption I am for purchasing characters with ISK.
Originally by: Akita T Unless you have a poll with at least 10k valid votes, a large majority of it claiming they totally hate the idea, you can't even begin to claim it's against the community's wishes.
Nor can you claim it is not, unless you have the same. |
Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.10.06 16:29:00 -
[33]
How will this work in regard to the 360 day timer? Can I use a regular remap in January, then get one for PLEX in, say, March and October, and then get another regular remap in February without a PLEX? Or will each application of PLEX reset the timer? ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.10.06 16:33:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Legs Mackenzie
Originally by: Akita T No, the month of gametime was only added when the PLEX was USED, and therefore DESTROYED. Before then, it was nothing more than a financial liability for CCP.
Could you please explain this statement? If I sell you a ride in my super-car, on a ticket basis, I have your money and you have a ticket. The ticket you possess is not really a liability for me. Sure, one day I will probably have to provide the super-car ride, but maybe you'll never redeem it. Quids in.
Actually, yes, the ticket is an indirect financial liability for you. Not the textbook definition of a financial liability, but close enough. And so are prepaid phone cards for the phone companies. Or gift cards for retail chains. Or any other number of things that obligate the issuer to render a service at some time in the future (or be held liable if he fails to do so). That's why most of those things have an expiration date. PLEX don't have an expiration date.
What would you prefer : adding more ways to spend PLEX, or having all PLEX//GTC expire some time after they're issued ? I know which one I'd pick. The former.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2010.10.06 16:35:00 -
[35]
"We feel those things should be vanity items rather than those that give you a clear benefit over other players in-game." "That said, we are introducing a feature that lets you gain a clear benefit over other players in-game."
way2go
not gonna quit about it but i am disappoint ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.06 16:40:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 06/10/2010 16:45:40 Imo it's the first "real and intended" microtransaction in EVE.
Plex was basically "I pay your subscription if you give me 350 million ISK". Now ISK isn't used solely for game time but also to remap, so people pay both their game time and one month of subscription worth of RL money to CCP. Monthly revenues for CCP wil rise once it's implemented.
Still I'm in favour of this. It will allow you to train more flexible and allows a way out of year long skill plans and bad remap mistakes. I'm all for it!
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Riaqu
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Posted - 2010.10.06 16:50:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Riaqu on 06/10/2010 16:53:35 Edited by: Riaqu on 06/10/2010 16:51:36
Originally by: Akita T
It's only a slippery slope when it IS a slippery slope. So far I only see a mild side-step. Not the start of an inevitable gradual decline.
You mean, like it's already possible through buying of a high-SP character with ISK, and by buying ISK with PLEX//GTC ?
This shows that the slippery slope does exist: you use the buying of characters (beginning of slope) to justify the remapping for PLEX.
I don't like the buying of characters for exactly the same reason as I don't like buying remaps. I understand that in the former there is a strong case to be made (fighting illegal character trading by regulating it), but essentially they are part of the same slippery slope.
About the buying of PLEX for IS, same again: there are some valid arguments in favour, but it opens the door to sliding further down the slope.
Quote:
As if SP total equals competitiveness ^2 Newsflash : enough older, high-SP players have low-SP alts they use for PvP. There ARE advantages to a low-SP-count character, especially for high-risk PvP.
Who said that SP = total competitiveness? I certainly didn't.
But it is obvious that it gives an extra advantage to those with lots of ISK or money. In a game where 5% greater efficiency (for PvP or anything else) can be worth training for for weeks, this is not an unimportant issue.
It's about drawing a line as to how much you can influence your success through wealth (power or ISK). I prefer a game based on merit and intelligence, rather than the depth of your wallet.
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Othran
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.10.06 16:52:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Akita T
Actually, yes, the ticket is an indirect financial liability for you. Not the textbook definition of a financial liability, but close enough.
Actually no. You're way off the mark.
PLEX is an in-game item and as such is owned by CCP - just like your ships, your character, everything.
No liability involved - not one that's going to get you your money back from CCP or your CC company anyway.
Try it and they'll have a good laugh at you - might brighten up their day.
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Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.06 17:02:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Akita T Entropia
I see my sarcasm passed un-noticed.
Regardless, I don't like that Eve is taking this direction, but I guess that I belong to a shrinking crowd.
Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.06 17:03:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Riaqu But it is obvious that it gives an extra advantage to those with lots of ISK or money. In a game where 5% greater efficiency (for PvP or anything else) can be worth training for for weeks, this is not an unimportant issue.
It's about drawing a line as to how much you can influence your success through wealth (power or ISK). I prefer a game based on merit and intelligence, rather than the depth of your wallet.
That's funny. In a game where the outcome should be based on merit and intelligence the "gear" differences are remarkably big.
Why should you care if someone has the same skill levels as you - as you are smarter and more intelligent anyway and SP don't mean that much?
I find this contradicting your "5% greater efficiency (for PvP or anything else) can be worth training for for weeks".
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Kimisha cynolus
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Posted - 2010.10.06 17:08:00 -
[41]
The day when you will be able to buy SP, i'll sadly stop my accounts. This is not MY Eve.
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Riaqu
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Posted - 2010.10.06 17:16:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling That's funny. In a game where the outcome should be based on merit and intelligence the "gear" differences are remarkably big.
Why should you care if someone has the same skill levels as you - as you are smarter and more intelligent anyway and SP don't mean that much?
I find this contradicting your "5% greater efficiency (for PvP or anything else) can be worth training for for weeks".
Actually, I'm not smarter or more intelligent... I suck at PvP, at trading, at most aspects of EVE, but I still love the game.
Anyway, I don't see the contradiction. SP mean a lot, but a lesser skilled yet more intelligent player can obviously still kill me in PvP. It's an "all other things being equal" thing.
The question is how can one level the playing field as much as possible while still allowing for training and SP. I believe that time is a fair factor. Someone who is just as intelligent (or unintelligent) as I am but who has played for many years will, and should, have an advantage over me. His ship will be better fitted, his resists will be higher, etc.
What would be less acceptable if that person (with an equal IQ) uses his real life wallet to beat me, because than it becomes a very scary slippery slope. Do I need to spend more money myself, or should I just accept being beaten more often than not? Or should I be able to blow up a more intelligent teenager simply because I am richer in real life?
(And to be clear: it's exactly for that reason that I don't like PLEX or character transfers either, but in those cases there are other variables in the equation).
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Red zeon
Caldari Big Shadows Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.10.06 17:30:00 -
[43]
relaaaax people. its not remap skills like skill books, its remap atributes like perception and them. we have one free every year anyway
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Arachna
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Posted - 2010.10.06 17:30:00 -
[44]
i'm all pro to reset ur attributes... but to pay 300mil or 15 euro for it heeeeeeeeeeelll no! I'll just wait for BS V a few more days to finish then. Who cares anyway?
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2010.10.06 17:33:00 -
[45]
Originally by: King Pleasure Edited by: King Pleasure on 06/10/2010 14:40:02 Interview
Quote: Torfi Frans Olafsson: Yeah, we are looking at introducing virtual goods within the game, but we feel those things should be vanity items rather than those that give you a clear benefit over other players in-game.
That said, we are introducing a feature this expansion [Incursion], that does allow you to re-map your attributes using Pilot Licence Extensions, which are bought both in-game and on our website. PLEX represents 30-days subscription within the game.
We will evolve just like everyone else. We will certainly not become a dinosaur. That has not been our style.
Ironic considering the title of the interview. CCP give a damn but inspite of the large number of protest posts they'll go ahead anyway. Now, don't misunderstand me, I'm not surprised. Nor am I surprised we're hearing about it on a third party site first.
*edit - Title for clarity.
Meh.
Double meh. Why people are getting their panties in a bunch I don't know. The remap thing? Everyone and their dog have been asking for learning skills to be removed which in my mind is a far greater disruption than this. People get all hot and bothered about their attributes, but in the end, unless you specialize your skill queue for a greater part of a year, no matter _what_ your attributes are it averages out. Learning that minimum L5 charisma skill completely balances out that maxed out L5 intelligence skill.
As far as micro-transactions go, its necessary. EVE is being set up to become larger than it currently is. The addition of Incarna, Dust 514, are things most old timers seem to hate, but has the potential to add alot of people to New Eden. Micro-transactions are a part of that.
Besides, EVE already has one micro-transaction. PLEX. Enough said.
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Alia Poole
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Posted - 2010.10.06 17:48:00 -
[46]
I could afford to pay for a Plex remap but I won't. It doesn't bother me at all that I'm specced for Perc/Will atm. If I feel the need to train something else I accept that I'm training slower.
My main problem if that I feel this is the start of a slippery slope to a different game, one where cash is a valid way of getting ingame stuff (sp, ships, sovereignty in 0.0?) and where instant access to everything replaces working on a char, on skills, on building a corp etc. If that happens I think I'd let my subscription lapse and go play something else. No biggie though, the list of games I no longer play for whatever reason is quite long.
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Ovan Etoo
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Posted - 2010.10.06 17:53:00 -
[47]
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1387227&page=1
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Eris Davion
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Posted - 2010.10.06 18:02:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/10/2010 14:53:26
Originally by: King Pleasure [...]in spite of the large number of protest posts[...]
...and quite a few support posts...
Let me rephrase it more vigorously : people protesting against PLEX-for-remap are at best dirt-ISK-poor wussies, at worst entitlement-filled morons.
Funny, I thought the "entitlement-filled morons" were the guys asking for remaps in general.
About the topic itself, though: I'm not concerned with the idea of microtransactions in general, just what's being done with it. How much of an advantage in-game you can get for RL cash.
There will be some. Buy GTC, sell as PLEX -> 300m or so in ISK earned outside the game. That's a small advantage already. But not an insurmountable one, since you're selling it to other players who've put in the effort of making that ISK in-game.
But... I was never a fan of remaps. I tend towards RP perspectives, and the idea behind them (IMO) takes some of the character out of the characters. You can say "so don't use them," but that invokes something else that bothers me: excaberating the advantages hardcore Min-Maxers already have over RP characters.
So buying remaps - whether with out-of-game microtransactions or in-game by buying plex off others... well, that just makes something that bugs me a little more common.
Not enough to make me quit, but enough for me to ***** about it on the forums.
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Azrakadar
Minmatar The Nietzsche Followers
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Posted - 2010.10.06 18:33:00 -
[49]
No micro transactions was one of the main things I loved about Eve. I could go around bloating that my MMO had nothing some people could have and some people couldn't.
CCP, you are scaring me.
Please reconsider, and listen to your community.
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.10.06 18:34:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/10/2010 14:53:26
Originally by: King Pleasure [...]in spite of the large number of protest posts[...]
...and quite a few support posts...
Let me rephrase it more vigorously : people protesting against PLEX-for-remap are at best dirt-ISK-poor wussies, at worst entitlement-filled morons.
Originally by: BeanBagKing That makes me sad :( One of the reasons I love Eve is it's lack of micro-transactions.
Cash -> GTC//PLEX -> ISK -> almost anything else (INCLUDING high-skills characters). We already have some twisted stealthed form of microtransactions. We've had them for years. This is not radically different at all.
Plex for subs = RMT between players, and NOT microtransactions.
Remap for plex = buying directly from CCP = microtransactions.
Please educate yourself.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
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dtyk
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Posted - 2010.10.06 18:39:00 -
[51]
What bothers me about this thing: The players reactions. Stop being whiny *******s, please.
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TigerXtrm
Iron-Sky DEM0N HUNTERS
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Posted - 2010.10.06 18:42:00 -
[52]
If people want to spend 15 bux on something that will speed up training in certain skills they can go right ahead, I don't care. On a 30 day skills it shaves off like 3 days... whoopdie ****ing doo. If those 3 days are worth 15 bux (or 300m isk, take your pick, it comes down to the same thing) then you need a life, quite bad.
So I don't care about this particular thing, however where is the line drawn? Now it's attributes? In 2 years we could be reading about plans to spend 1 plex for 500.000 free skillpoints. And while that is equally insane to do on any grand scale (as it would require a few dozen plexes to get any big skill at any decent level), you KNOW someone out there is going to do it. There are plenty of lifeless idiots in this game who apparently have no problem spending thousands of dollars on improving their charachter. Hell, I know certain people in Eve who would gladly pay 1000 dollars or more to get their Titan skills up without the horrible wait.
So yes, slippery slope. Very slippery. Right CCP don't want players to buy a significant advantage with RL money. But that might change in 2 years as well when they finally figure out that Dust is going to fail insanely and they will be stuck with the few million they put into development.
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Dzajic
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.06 18:45:00 -
[53]
Can someone pleas link or quote when in discussions that started after SP reimbursement was announced, CCP clearly denied any plans of introducing mistranslations at this time?
Polished content =/= broken and unbalanced content. |
Jaghatie Khan
Smokin Aces.
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Posted - 2010.10.06 18:46:00 -
[54]
I don't see how bringing in new revenue that could keep the game alive as well as provide more money for more development could possibly be a bad thing.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2010.10.06 19:07:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Jaghatie Khan I don't see how bringing in new revenue that could keep the game alive as well as provide more money for more development could possibly be a bad thing.
People are scared CCP is going to put stuff in the store that will shrink their e-peen. Which I think is an unfounded fear, but whatever. They think being able to buy remaps is a slippery slope, and that it goes against what the majority of the players want, when instead it is a half measure to what a majority of people really want, which is to do away with attributes altogether including all the learning skills. People _hate_ the learning skills and the attributes mess, which was why CCP added remaps in the first place.
Most bad decisions in EVE cost you, they can even cost you alot, but they generally don't cost you for the entire lifetime of your character. Bad attribute placements can cripple your characters potential. Remaps made it so at the very least you could wait a year and get back on track.
Being able to buy a remap with PLEX can finally open up dead end characters.
Personally though, id rather they added a new Attribute Remap Coupon (ARC) that could be bought for 300M ISK. You could trade a PLEX for an ARC on the normal market, but at least it would make more sense to me.
Otherwise, then id have to agree with the majority that attributes and learning skills should be done away with, making this whole PLEX for remap issue moot.
It would still **** off some people, but who cares. They suck anyway.
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Cobalt Sixty
Caldari Invictus Australis BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.10.06 19:09:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 06/10/2010 19:11:44
Originally by: King Pleasure Nor am I surprised we're hearing about it on a third party site first.
This is for me a bigger gripe than PLEX for anything - I've grown weary of these instances when external sources are more informative.
Anyway,
Here is food for thought: imagine if you only got X number of posts here per month you're subscribed. You'd also have to spend Y number of posts (which would be a respectable chunk of your X) to start a new thread. However, you could exchange a PLEX for Z number of posts (an order of magnitude more than X) to burn through on top of X and without any expiry.
Maybe then some of you people would be less eager with your ****ting up this forum with posts about how EVE is dying this time. At least if you weren't you might literally pay for it.
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King Pleasure
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Posted - 2010.10.06 19:17:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 06/10/2010 19:11:44
Here is food for thought: imagine if you only got X number of posts here per month you're subscribed. You'd also have to spend Y number of posts (which would be a respectable chunk of your X) to start a new thread. However, you could exchange a PLEX for Z number of posts (an order of magnitude more than X) to burn through on top of X and without any expiry.
Maybe then some of you people would be less eager with your ****ting up this forum with posts about how EVE is dying this time. At least if you weren't you might literally pay for it.
Yeah, but then I might actually have to go and play EVE.
Regardless of what I said before this, you should remember that only about 1 in 20 of my posts have any real purpose. |
CyberGh0st
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.10.06 19:21:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Dasubervixen And so ends EvE as we knew it.
yep
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
mechtech
SRS Industries SRS.
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Posted - 2010.10.06 19:27:00 -
[59]
"Personally though, id rather they added a new Attribute Remap Coupon (ARC) that could be bought for 300M ISK"
I totally agree with this. I don't see why they are linking remaps to a 30-day timecard. My preferred solution would to have remaps available through in game means (manufactured w/ PI goods for example). If you want to buy a remap with $$, buy a PLEX and cash it.
This change is just a money grab that will artificially put upward pressure on PLEX price, which in turn increases PLEX demand. Mission accomplished I guess, but the whole thing makes me uneasy.
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Julia Reave
J-Systems
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Posted - 2010.10.06 21:01:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Julia Reave on 06/10/2010 21:02:28
Originally by: Dzajic Can someone pleas link or quote when in discussions that started after SP reimbursement was announced, CCP clearly denied any plans of introducing mistranslations at this time?
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1341909/page/all#20
EDIT: Linkified.
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