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King Pleasure	Posted - 2010.10.06 14:21:00 - [1] Interview Quote: Torfi Frans Olafsson: Yeah, we are looking at introducing virtual goods within the game, but we feel those things should be vanity items rather than those that give you a clear benefit over other players in-game. That said, we are introducing a feature this expansion [Incursion], that does allow you to re-map your attributes using Pilot Licence Extensions, which are bought both in-game and on our website. PLEX represents 30-days subscription within the game. We will evolve just like everyone else. We will certainly not become a dinosaur. That has not been our style. Ironic considering the title of the interview. CCP give a damn but inspite of the large number of protest posts they'll go ahead anyway. Now, don't misunderstand me, I'm not surprised. Nor am I surprised we're hearing about it on a third party site first. Regardless of what I said before this, you should remember that only about 1 in 20 of my posts have any real purpose.
Dasubervixen Amarr	Posted - 2010.10.06 14:30:00 - [2] And so ends EvE as we knew it. Anything done within the rules of the game is NOT griefing. Get over it.
BeanBagKing Terra Incognita Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.06 14:43:00 - [3] That makes me sad :( One of the reasons I love Eve is it's lack of micro-transactions.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.06 14:47:00 - [4] Edited by: Akita T on 06/10/2010 14:53:26 Originally by: King Pleasure [...]in spite of the large number of protest posts[...] ...and quite a few support posts... Let me rephrase it more vigorously : people protesting against PLEX-for-remap are at best dirt-ISK-poor wussies, at worst entitlement-filled morons. Originally by: BeanBagKing That makes me sad :( One of the reasons I love Eve is it's lack of micro-transactions. Cash -> GTC//PLEX -> ISK -> almost anything else (INCLUDING high-skills characters). We already have some twisted stealthed form of microtransactions. We've had them for years. This is not radically different at all. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.06 14:49:00 - [5] I for one welcome this, no more 1 year skillplans!! Flexibility ftw! Uncork the champagne!
Brolly Caldari 13th Legion the lastchancers	Posted - 2010.10.06 14:49:00 - [6] No big deal imho, it's not as though you can buy 5 mill sp with plex.....yet
Bernard Schuyler	Posted - 2010.10.06 14:50:00 - [7] Originally by: BeanBagKing That makes me sad :( One of the reasons I love Eve is it's lack of micro-transactions. While I agree, I will note that it isn't necessarily your microtransaction. Many players use PLEX without forking over a dime. If there was no PLEX but you could buy remaps for 300m ISK would it even be an issue for debate?
King Pleasure	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:01:00 - [8] Originally by: Bernard Schuyler Originally by: BeanBagKing That makes me sad :( One of the reasons I love Eve is it's lack of micro-transactions. While I agree, I will note that it isn't necessarily your microtransaction. Many players use PLEX without forking over a dime. If there was no PLEX but you could buy remaps for 300m ISK would it even be an issue for debate? Not so much, no. That's a pretty good point - I don't really care about PLEX for remap that much to be honest. I'm more concerned about the slippery road it may very well lead down. Having played SOE games for a few years, before and after they introduced micro-transactions, I am weary of statements about 'cosmetic' MT's being introduced as they seem to have the habit of going from cosmetic to game changing over the course of a couple of months/years. I'm also a little disappointed that they didn't just make a Dev blog about it and explain their intentions. With the proliferation of Dev posts we've had lately it wouldn't have been so hard to slip one in explain both PLEX for remap and the direction they're heading with regards to micro-transactions in general. Fake edit - what's a good antonym for cosmetic? Regardless of what I said before this, you should remember that only about 1 in 20 of my posts have any real purpose.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:02:00 - [9] I guess those last leadership skills will be done a month sooner than expected then.
Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:11:00 - [10] Edited by: Corozan Aspinall on 06/10/2010 15:16:22 Quote: That makes me sad :( Emotionally speaking, yes it does make me sad also. But emotion has no place in business. That's the reality of the situation - its a business. Maximise profits, minimize expenditure. The quality of the game and its continued attraction to new players is the business core asset. That's the whole reason this all exists. Quote: I don't really care about PLEX for remap that much to be honest. I'm more concerned about the slippery road it may very well lead down. 100% agree. I would make use of it myself, especially if I can pay with ISK. I wouldn't do it obsessively every month though. Maybe more like 3-4 times a year instead of once. No biggie for me. It does not concern me that new players would be able to spend real money to skill faster than I have been able to up till now. Old rich players getting their dred license a month or two sooner will have no impact on me either tbh. All that bothers me is that CCP have, in the last year or so, continued to pour more and more 'easy' ISK in to the game space. This will have a serious impact on future micro transactions based on ISK and, if they are not careful, on the quality and competativeness of the gameplay. Thats when people will start jumping ship and shouting loudly about EvE's inevitable demise. I'm a year old and I already earn enough to pay for two plex a month in completely passive income. CCP wants EvE to be 'free' to play basically. As far as I can tell thats in their minds with this kind of microtransaction model: get people buying GTC and converting them in to PLEX rather than subbing/umsubbing/subbing/unsubbing etc. Its a more sustainable model long term if you consider it - people will play more, new player retention will go up, more people will come back and play EvE sporadically etc etc etc. It makes sense for the next 10 years of this MMO to, as Torfi puts it, not become a dinosaur. Times change. EvE is changing with them. Thats sad on a level, but realistically, its going to keep the game alive for many years longer than it would survive otherwise. I support that and I think we can trust CCP, as long as they stay a privately owned company, to keep some perspective.
Buck Marui Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:18:00 - [11] I am one of those people that will leave after the implementation of there plex for remap idea, not solely because it's a form of microtransaction but because it is blatantly against the communities wishes, this marks a significant change in the way CCP operates and is one I will not support. Furthermore Quote: There's no way of knowing for how long EVE will survive. It will survive for as long as people are willing to play it and pay for it. What happened to there "EVE is forever" slogan and the ultimate Sci-fi universe concept?
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:32:00 - [12] Everyone who is "leaving when they implement this" please post only with your mains so we can contact list you guys and ask WHY LOG IN?! when the expansion comes. GTFO now while you still can, contract me your stuff!
Zeerover Inglorious-Basterds	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:35:00 - [13] Originally by: Cupio Mortem Everyone who is "leaving when they implement this" please post only with your mains so we can contact list you guys and ask WHY LOG IN?! when the expansion comes. GTFO now while you still can, contract me your stuff! Agreed :) BTW the difference between this and micro transactions in other games is that you CAN fully play this game without forking over RL money, both now and in the future, since the PLEXes are bought and sold on the EVE market for in game currency (ISK). This point alone makes any comparison to other MT using games invalid.
Buck Marui Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:36:00 - [14] Edited by: Buck Marui on 06/10/2010 15:37:30 Originally by: Cupio Mortem Everyone who is "leaving when they implement this" please post only with your mains so we can contact list you guys and ask WHY LOG IN?! when the expansion comes. GTFO now while you still can, contract me your stuff! You cannot do this, as your contact list will not hold that many contacts... I heard you may be able to buy more space for your contact list with a plex though in about 18 months so no worries.
Alt FTW	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:36:00 - [15] Edited by: Alt FTW on 06/10/2010 15:42:11 Originally by: Akita T Let me rephrase it more vigorously : people protesting against PLEX-for-remap are at best dirt-ISK-poor wussies, at worst entitlement-filled morons. This is a ridiculous statement. Far be it from me (a relatively new player) to argue with a seasoned forum veteran like yourself. Moreover, you gave me some very helpful and kind advice on the Q&A forum in the past. However, it is one thing to not be worried about this new feature, but is a whole other thing to say that people who don't agree are morons. The first group you mention ("dirt-isk-poor wussies") tend to be casual gamers who do not devote their lives to EVE, and thus don't have billions. They will be losing out compared to those who can buy PLEX on a regular basis. Secondly, every step that moves towards microtransactions deserves scrutiny and, in my opinion, criticism. You may not be worried, but others have legitimate concerns.
Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:37:00 - [16] Originally by: Cupio Mortem Everyone who is "leaving when they implement this" please post only with your mains so we can contact list you guys and ask WHY LOG IN?! when the expansion comes. GTFO now while you still can, contract me your stuff! That's rather the point of my post mate: Why would anyone 'leave' EvE if it costs them 'nothing' more than a few hrs a week of their game time for all they can eat? How is this not win from a business perspective? Old subs is old. We've all be moaning about how there's no point grinding EvE, no point logging in even while key skills top up. Now, since PLEX, there is .. its called .. not paying to play. That's your reward. They keep you, you stay with the product and with the 'scene' and new players come in. All increases the market, the revenues and keeps EvE 'alive' for years to come. All of which just gets easier and less time consuming every new update.
Legs Mackenzie	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:37:00 - [17] CCP: Jumping the shark
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:39:00 - [18] Edited by: Akita T on 06/10/2010 15:44:38 Originally by: Buck Marui Quote: There's no way of knowing for how long EVE will survive. It will survive for as long as people are willing to play it and pay for it. What happened to there "EVE is forever" slogan and the ultimate Sci-fi universe concept? "no way of knowing" ≠ "we're doomed" The INTENTION is to keep going as long as possible, the REALITY is that it could collapse at any time. Quote: I am one of those people that will leave after the implementation of there plex for remap idea, not solely because it's a form of microtransaction but because it is blatantly against the communities wishes, this marks a significant change in the way CCP operates and is one I will not support. So, wait, you HAVE NOT quit over the fact Random Joe can dish out a lot of RL cash to buy himself a high-SP char and any stuff he might want... but you want to quit over allowing people to train SP roughly 20% faster on average without committing to a 1-year skillplan by paying the equivalent of one month of subscription time for each skillplan change ? GOOD RIDDANCE. Originally by: Alt FTW The first group you mention ("dirt-isk-poor wussies") tend to be casual gamers who do not devote their lives to EVE, and thus don't have billions. They will be losing compared to those who can buy PLEX on a regular basis. You only need one PLEX whenever you alter your skillplan from a certain attribute-heavy configuration to another attribute-heavy configuration. How often do you radically change skillplans ? Some people already managed to do it nicely with one-year plans. Realistically, I seriously doubt even the most hardcore PLEX-for-remap users will make use of this feature more than three times a year. Quote: Secondly, every step that moves towards microtransactions deserves scrutiny and, in my opinion, criticism. You may not be worried, but others have legitimate concerns. It's not out of line with anything CCP already allows. In fact, it's less drastic than other stuff that's already happening. Like, oh, say, having a second account. That DOUBLES your total SP-earning potential. Or like buying a high-SP char. They usually sell for less than the equivalent PLEX costs which would have been necessary to train them. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:39:00 - [19] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/10/2010 14:53:26 Originally by: King Pleasure [...]in spite of the large number of protest posts[...] ...and quite a few support posts... Let me rephrase it more vigorously : people protesting against PLEX-for-remap are at best dirt-ISK-poor wussies, at worst entitlement-filled morons. Originally by: BeanBagKing That makes me sad :( One of the reasons I love Eve is it's lack of micro-transactions. Cash -> GTC//PLEX -> ISK -> almost anything else (INCLUDING high-skills characters). We already have some twisted stealthed form of microtransactions. We've had them for years. This is not radically different at all. But you must realize that there is a reason they don't offer remap for isk, but for plex. if it was for isk, then people could grind that isk in the game, "create" it from bounties or insurances, and then spend that on the remap, which does not give CCP anything, but people playing the game, and paying for it with a monthly fee. which is good. But if you need plexes to remap, then even if you bought the plex with isk, somebody still had to pay RL money for that plex. So there is a huge difference if you would pay for that remap with a plex or isk, so you cant just say Cash -> GTC//PLEX -> ISK ->almost anything else until recently for every plex bought with real money, a game time of one month was added to the account. It might have been to a different account, and that is why it was possible to buy characters and all, but the fact remains that for every 30 bucks 2 months of game time were added somewhere so all money that we paid to CCP went to subscriptions, even if you got isk for it, or characters or whatever, all money paid to CCP went to subscriptions. This is of course no longer the case since it is now possible to destroy plexes. But its not like you got an advantage from destroying a plex. Well to be perfectly honest, and go against my case a little, you wont really get much of an advantage by being able to remap every-time you want. people argue over the definition of rmt, I wont, the fact that so far all money paid to CCP went to subscriptions, is what made it ok for me. Now the fact that people will be paying for subscriptions, and then paying additionally for "whatever CCP offers next" brings up problems. sure, the things that you pay for, can also be acquired by grinding isk in-game, but that is the case in most micro transaction based games. what CCP has done is change the micro transactions, by making it sizeable transactions, as they are in the value of one month worth of subscription...not really micro. not only that, if you wish to purchase the same thing by grinding isk in game, you cant really be sure how much you need to pay, as its a free market and the prices of plexes can change. and you know, just as well as I do that this is only the beginning, there are bound to be other goodies coming, not vanity items, stuff that actually gives you an advantage...as small as it might be. I guess what I am trying to say in short is: **** you CCP, I was going to raise my children in a geek/gaming culture, and eve was going to be the way to do it. So the next time you decide to make a dumbass decision, think of our children.
Buck Marui Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:40:00 - [20] Originally by: Akita T So, wait, you HAVE NOT quit over the fact Random Joe can dish out a lot of RL cash to buy himself a high-SP char and any stuff he might want... but you want to quit over allowing people to train SP roughly 20% faster on average without committing to a 1-year skillplan by paying the equivalent of one month of subscription time for each skillplan change ? GOOD RIDDANCE. No you misread, please try again.
Wu Jiaqiu Minmatar Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:47:00 - [21] I don't understand how this could be a bad idea. Even the 03 players can purchase remaps and still be years ahead of anyone forever. This new 300 mil isk bought remap simply accelerates the game for new people and makes it easier to bear the month long skill training waiting.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:47:00 - [22] this thing only has me worried about 2 things: first is the slippery slope that this might introduce. not the "remap for plex" thing itself. second is, yet again, the lack of communication. I mean we only knew this thru 2 places: test server and an interview. no devblog explaining why, nor a CCP dev saying "we're going to implement a "remap for plex" thingy and you people have no say in that, period." those are the only 2 things that miff me. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Commander Azrael Red Federation	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Wu Jiaqiu I don't understand how this could be a bad idea. Even the 03 players can purchase remaps and still be years ahead of anyone forever. This new 300 mil isk bought remap simply accelerates the game for new people and makes it easier to bear the month long skill training waiting. Whichever way the argument is painted, you can spend RL money to circumvent in game mechanics, and as several people have stated this is a slippery slope and a move intended to inflate CCP's coffers - A crappy move imo when I already pay a subscription(s). The biggest concern is where this ends.
Riaqu	Posted - 2010.10.06 15:55:00 - [24] This is a really bad decisions by CCP, made even worse because of the "slippery slope argument". It will benefit two players: those with a lot of ISK, and those with a lot of real life money. They will effectively be buying skill points where the rest is left behind. This means that hardcore (new and old) gamers will become even more dominant and successful, but all the others (i.e. the sane people who play EVE for a bit of fun every now and then, but also have a life) will become even less competitive. Terrible move, CCP.
Othran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:02:00 - [25] Edited by: Othran on 06/10/2010 16:03:53 Not surprised. The only reason for changing PLEX so it could be moved (and hence lost) was to increase revenue. You can put whatever spin you like on it but that's the reason. Now remaps. Then it'll be clothes and crap if Incarna ever happens, then it'll be something else - like a better POS. Its fairly obvious that maximising the revenue stream has taken precedence over game design. I guess trying to develop two games from the revenues derived from one game which is more expensive to maintain (in h/w terms) than just about any other MMO is straining the corporate wallet. Hence the focus on increasing the revenue stream.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:06:00 - [26] Originally by: Buck Marui No you misread, please try again. Unless you have a poll with at least 10k valid votes, a large majority of it claiming they totally hate the idea, you can't even begin to claim it's against the community's wishes. I, for one, totally welcome this idea, and quite a few other players surely do too. It's by far NOT a clearcut case of "community says no". And even if it would be against the community's wishes (which is DOUBTFUL), it's not like it's the first thing CCP has ever done that wasn't particularly popular. So the only semblance of a good reason to quit over it is that it is in your eyes a step towards "significant effect of micropayments on gameplay". Which, for now, IT ISN'T. Originally by: Ak'athra J'ador But you must realize that there is a reason they don't offer remap for isk, but for plex. if it was for isk, then people could grind that isk in the game, "create" it from bounties or insurances, and then spend that on the remap, which does not give CCP anything, but people playing the game, and paying for it with a monthly fee. which is good. But if you need plexes to remap, then even if you bought the plex with isk, somebody still had to pay RL money for that plex. So there is a huge difference if you would pay for that remap with a plex or isk, so you cant just say Cash -> GTC//PLEX -> ISK ->almost anything else Yes, you can. 1 PLEX purchased with ISK, 1 PLEX purchased with cash or the momentary ISK equivalent of a PLEX, they're all FUNCTIONALLY INTERCHANGEABLE AND THEREFORE AS GOOD AS IDENTICAL IN VALUE for the end user. The difference is only on CCP's side, not the player's side. Quote: until recently for every plex bought with real money, a game time of one month was added to the account. It might have been to a different account, and that is why it was possible to buy characters and all, but the fact remains that for every 30 bucks 2 months of game time were added somewhere so all money that we paid to CCP went to subscriptions, even if you got isk for it, or characters or whatever, all money paid to CCP went to subscriptions. No, the month of gametime was only added when the PLEX was USED, and therefore DESTROYED. Before then, it was nothing more than a financial liability for CCP. Quote: This is of course no longer the case since it is now possible to destroy plexes. But its not like you got an advantage from destroying a plex. You could destroy them before, the difference is somebody ELSE can destroy yours if you let him. But since PLEX=ISK, there's no big difference. Quote: But its not like you got an advantage from destroying a plex. Well to be perfectly honest, and go against my case a little, you wont really get much of an advantage by being able to remap every-time you want. people argue over the definition of rmt, I wont, the fact that so far all money paid to CCP went to subscriptions, is what made it ok for me. Now the fact that people will be paying for subscriptions, and then paying additionally for "whatever CCP offers next" brings up problems. It's not radically different from a newbie buying high-level implants as soon as he starts his first paid month. It's similar (on average, long-term over the entire population) to getting some additional PLEX-paid accounts. You even admitted, it's not really much of an advantage. It's merely removing a mildly inconvenient natural limitation. Like, say, paying 1 PLEX every 4 months to get an additional character slot on your account. Or paying 1 PLEX every month to allow two characters on the same account to train at the same time. Or paying 1 PLEX per month to have any ship you fly have a pink hue. The moment they introduce "pay X PLEX for the creation of a new T2 BPO" (or any other previously limited-edition item of higher-than-1-PLEX value), then yes, we will START having a problem. But so far, there is none. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Riaqu This is a really bad decisions by CCP, made even worse because of the "slippery slope argument". It's only a slippery slope when it IS a slippery slope. So far I only see a mild side-step. Not the start of an inevitable gradual decline. Quote: It will benefit two players: those with a lot of ISK, and those with a lot of real life money. They will effectively be buying skill points where the rest is left behind. You mean, like it's already possible through buying of a high-SP character with ISK, and by buying ISK with PLEX//GTC ? Quote: This means that hardcore (new and old) gamers will become even more dominant and successful, but all the others (i.e. the sane people who play EVE for a bit of fun every now and then, but also have a life) will become even less competitive. Terrible move, CCP. As if SP total equals competitiveness ^2 Newsflash : enough older, high-SP players have low-SP alts they use for PvP. There ARE advantages to a low-SP-count character, especially for high-risk PvP. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:19:00 - [28] /me scurries off to find a dinosaur MMO. Will contract stuff if/when I leave. Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:20:00 - [29] Confirming that CCP is no better than any other money grubbing corporation, too bad I didn't know them when they were the 'indie game developer' people have occasionally talked about. --Submit your bug reports via mental telepathy this will streamline CCP ignoring them.--
Legs Mackenzie	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Akita T No, the month of gametime was only added when the PLEX was USED, and therefore DESTROYED. Before then, it was nothing more than a financial liability for CCP. Could you please explain this statement? If I sell you a ride in my super-car, on a ticket basis, I have your money and you have a ticket. The ticket you possess is not really a liability for me. Sure, one day I will probably have to provide the super-car ride, but maybe you'll never redeem it. Quids in.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:24:00 - [31] Originally by: Illwill Bill /me scurries off to find a dinosaur MMO. Will contract stuff if/when I leave. Good news : there is at least one. Well, sort of, anyway. It's called "Entropia Universe". And it's quite old, it was called "Project Entropia" before Bad news : it's F2P and 100% microtransactions And sadly, on average (across the entire playerbase, that is) you can not even "break even" (economically speaking), you'd have to keep pumping cash in to keep playing... effectively paying probably more than a regular sub in the long run _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Buck Marui Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:27:00 - [32] Edited by: Buck Marui on 06/10/2010 16:32:11 Originally by: Akita T Unless you have a poll with at least 10k valid votes, a large majority of it claiming they totally hate the idea, you can't even begin to claim it's against the community's wishes. I, for one, totally welcome this idea, and quite a few other players surely do too. It's by far NOT a clearcut case of "community says no". And even if it would be against the community's wishes (which is DOUBTFUL), it's not like it's the first thing CCP has ever done that wasn't particularly popular. So the only semblance of a good reason to quit over it is that it is in your eyes a step towards "significant effect of micropayments on gameplay". Which, for now, IT ISN'T. I'm sorry I didn't feel like I needed to clarify my personal views for others, "I" dislike the direction CCP are taking, therefore "I" am deciding to leave, I don't care about your opinion on the matter, I don't care that you like the idea and are willing to use it, I don't doubt for a minute there are people willing to use and even abuse this concept, there will always be people willing to spend inordinate amounts of money on a computer game, this is simply a fact of MMO's, however I am not one of these people and I do not look forward to the idea of playing alongside/against these people. I am not asking that the rest of the playerbase leave with me, nor am I trying to make a point in leaving, you are simply being overly defensive. There was a time that CCP would never have implemented or even thought about implementing something like this without the communities input first, that time has past. You also make the assumption I am for purchasing characters with ISK. Originally by: Akita T Unless you have a poll with at least 10k valid votes, a large majority of it claiming they totally hate the idea, you can't even begin to claim it's against the community's wishes. Nor can you claim it is not, unless you have the same.
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:29:00 - [33] How will this work in regard to the 360 day timer? Can I use a regular remap in January, then get one for PLEX in, say, March and October, and then get another regular remap in February without a PLEX? Or will each application of PLEX reset the timer? ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real!
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:33:00 - [34] Originally by: Legs Mackenzie Originally by: Akita T No, the month of gametime was only added when the PLEX was USED, and therefore DESTROYED. Before then, it was nothing more than a financial liability for CCP. Could you please explain this statement? If I sell you a ride in my super-car, on a ticket basis, I have your money and you have a ticket. The ticket you possess is not really a liability for me. Sure, one day I will probably have to provide the super-car ride, but maybe you'll never redeem it. Quids in. Actually, yes, the ticket is an indirect financial liability for you. Not the textbook definition of a financial liability, but close enough. And so are prepaid phone cards for the phone companies. Or gift cards for retail chains. Or any other number of things that obligate the issuer to render a service at some time in the future (or be held liable if he fails to do so). That's why most of those things have an expiration date. PLEX don't have an expiration date. What would you prefer : adding more ways to spend PLEX, or having all PLEX//GTC expire some time after they're issued ? I know which one I'd pick. The former. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:35:00 - [35] "We feel those things should be vanity items rather than those that give you a clear benefit over other players in-game." "That said, we are introducing a feature that lets you gain a clear benefit over other players in-game." way2go not gonna quit about it but i am disappoint ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:40:00 - [36] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 06/10/2010 16:45:40 Imo it's the first "real and intended" microtransaction in EVE. Plex was basically "I pay your subscription if you give me 350 million ISK". Now ISK isn't used solely for game time but also to remap, so people pay both their game time and one month of subscription worth of RL money to CCP. Monthly revenues for CCP wil rise once it's implemented. Still I'm in favour of this. It will allow you to train more flexible and allows a way out of year long skill plans and bad remap mistakes. I'm all for it!
Riaqu	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:50:00 - [37] Edited by: Riaqu on 06/10/2010 16:53:35 Edited by: Riaqu on 06/10/2010 16:51:36 Originally by: Akita T It's only a slippery slope when it IS a slippery slope. So far I only see a mild side-step. Not the start of an inevitable gradual decline. You mean, like it's already possible through buying of a high-SP character with ISK, and by buying ISK with PLEX//GTC ? This shows that the slippery slope does exist: you use the buying of characters (beginning of slope) to justify the remapping for PLEX. I don't like the buying of characters for exactly the same reason as I don't like buying remaps. I understand that in the former there is a strong case to be made (fighting illegal character trading by regulating it), but essentially they are part of the same slippery slope. About the buying of PLEX for IS, same again: there are some valid arguments in favour, but it opens the door to sliding further down the slope. Quote: As if SP total equals competitiveness ^2 Newsflash : enough older, high-SP players have low-SP alts they use for PvP. There ARE advantages to a low-SP-count character, especially for high-risk PvP. Who said that SP = total competitiveness? I certainly didn't. But it is obvious that it gives an extra advantage to those with lots of ISK or money. In a game where 5% greater efficiency (for PvP or anything else) can be worth training for for weeks, this is not an unimportant issue. It's about drawing a line as to how much you can influence your success through wealth (power or ISK). I prefer a game based on merit and intelligence, rather than the depth of your wallet.
Othran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.10.06 16:52:00 - [38] Originally by: Akita T Actually, yes, the ticket is an indirect financial liability for you. Not the textbook definition of a financial liability, but close enough. Actually no. You're way off the mark. PLEX is an in-game item and as such is owned by CCP - just like your ships, your character, everything. No liability involved - not one that's going to get you your money back from CCP or your CC company anyway. Try it and they'll have a good laugh at you - might brighten up their day.
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.06 17:02:00 - [39] Originally by: Akita T Entropia I see my sarcasm passed un-noticed. Regardless, I don't like that Eve is taking this direction, but I guess that I belong to a shrinking crowd. Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.06 17:03:00 - [40] Originally by: Riaqu But it is obvious that it gives an extra advantage to those with lots of ISK or money. In a game where 5% greater efficiency (for PvP or anything else) can be worth training for for weeks, this is not an unimportant issue. It's about drawing a line as to how much you can influence your success through wealth (power or ISK). I prefer a game based on merit and intelligence, rather than the depth of your wallet. That's funny. In a game where the outcome should be based on merit and intelligence the "gear" differences are remarkably big. Why should you care if someone has the same skill levels as you - as you are smarter and more intelligent anyway and SP don't mean that much? I find this contradicting your "5% greater efficiency (for PvP or anything else) can be worth training for for weeks".
Kimisha cynolus	Posted - 2010.10.06 17:08:00 - [41] The day when you will be able to buy SP, i'll sadly stop my accounts. This is not MY Eve.
Riaqu	Posted - 2010.10.06 17:16:00 - [42] Originally by: Jennifer Starling That's funny. In a game where the outcome should be based on merit and intelligence the "gear" differences are remarkably big. Why should you care if someone has the same skill levels as you - as you are smarter and more intelligent anyway and SP don't mean that much? I find this contradicting your "5% greater efficiency (for PvP or anything else) can be worth training for for weeks". Actually, I'm not smarter or more intelligent... I suck at PvP, at trading, at most aspects of EVE, but I still love the game. Anyway, I don't see the contradiction. SP mean a lot, but a lesser skilled yet more intelligent player can obviously still kill me in PvP. It's an "all other things being equal" thing. The question is how can one level the playing field as much as possible while still allowing for training and SP. I believe that time is a fair factor. Someone who is just as intelligent (or unintelligent) as I am but who has played for many years will, and should, have an advantage over me. His ship will be better fitted, his resists will be higher, etc. What would be less acceptable if that person (with an equal IQ) uses his real life wallet to beat me, because than it becomes a very scary slippery slope. Do I need to spend more money myself, or should I just accept being beaten more often than not? Or should I be able to blow up a more intelligent teenager simply because I am richer in real life? (And to be clear: it's exactly for that reason that I don't like PLEX or character transfers either, but in those cases there are other variables in the equation).
Red zeon Caldari Big Shadows Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.10.06 17:30:00 - [43] relaaaax people. its not remap skills like skill books, its remap atributes like perception and them. we have one free every year anyway
Arachna	Posted - 2010.10.06 17:30:00 - [44] i'm all pro to reset ur attributes... but to pay 300mil or 15 euro for it heeeeeeeeeeelll no! I'll just wait for BS V a few more days to finish then. Who cares anyway?
Dharh Gallente Ace Adventure Corp	Posted - 2010.10.06 17:33:00 - [45] Originally by: King Pleasure Edited by: King Pleasure on 06/10/2010 14:40:02 Interview Quote: Torfi Frans Olafsson: Yeah, we are looking at introducing virtual goods within the game, but we feel those things should be vanity items rather than those that give you a clear benefit over other players in-game. That said, we are introducing a feature this expansion [Incursion], that does allow you to re-map your attributes using Pilot Licence Extensions, which are bought both in-game and on our website. PLEX represents 30-days subscription within the game. We will evolve just like everyone else. We will certainly not become a dinosaur. That has not been our style. Ironic considering the title of the interview. CCP give a damn but inspite of the large number of protest posts they'll go ahead anyway. Now, don't misunderstand me, I'm not surprised. Nor am I surprised we're hearing about it on a third party site first. *edit - Title for clarity. Meh. Double meh. Why people are getting their panties in a bunch I don't know. The remap thing? Everyone and their dog have been asking for learning skills to be removed which in my mind is a far greater disruption than this. People get all hot and bothered about their attributes, but in the end, unless you specialize your skill queue for a greater part of a year, no matter _what_ your attributes are it averages out. Learning that minimum L5 charisma skill completely balances out that maxed out L5 intelligence skill. As far as micro-transactions go, its necessary. EVE is being set up to become larger than it currently is. The addition of Incarna, Dust 514, are things most old timers seem to hate, but has the potential to add alot of people to New Eden. Micro-transactions are a part of that. Besides, EVE already has one micro-transaction. PLEX. Enough said.
Alia Poole	Posted - 2010.10.06 17:48:00 - [46] I could afford to pay for a Plex remap but I won't. It doesn't bother me at all that I'm specced for Perc/Will atm. If I feel the need to train something else I accept that I'm training slower. My main problem if that I feel this is the start of a slippery slope to a different game, one where cash is a valid way of getting ingame stuff (sp, ships, sovereignty in 0.0?) and where instant access to everything replaces working on a char, on skills, on building a corp etc. If that happens I think I'd let my subscription lapse and go play something else. No biggie though, the list of games I no longer play for whatever reason is quite long.
Ovan Etoo	Posted - 2010.10.06 17:53:00 - [47] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1387227&page=1
Eris Davion	Posted - 2010.10.06 18:02:00 - [48] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/10/2010 14:53:26 Originally by: King Pleasure [...]in spite of the large number of protest posts[...] ...and quite a few support posts... Let me rephrase it more vigorously : people protesting against PLEX-for-remap are at best dirt-ISK-poor wussies, at worst entitlement-filled morons. Funny, I thought the "entitlement-filled morons" were the guys asking for remaps in general. About the topic itself, though: I'm not concerned with the idea of microtransactions in general, just what's being done with it. How much of an advantage in-game you can get for RL cash. There will be some. Buy GTC, sell as PLEX -> 300m or so in ISK earned outside the game. That's a small advantage already. But not an insurmountable one, since you're selling it to other players who've put in the effort of making that ISK in-game. But... I was never a fan of remaps. I tend towards RP perspectives, and the idea behind them (IMO) takes some of the character out of the characters. You can say "so don't use them," but that invokes something else that bothers me: excaberating the advantages hardcore Min-Maxers already have over RP characters. So buying remaps - whether with out-of-game microtransactions or in-game by buying plex off others... well, that just makes something that bugs me a little more common. Not enough to make me quit, but enough for me to ***** about it on the forums.
Azrakadar Minmatar The Nietzsche Followers	Posted - 2010.10.06 18:33:00 - [49] No micro transactions was one of the main things I loved about Eve. I could go around bloating that my MMO had nothing some people could have and some people couldn't. CCP, you are scaring me. Please reconsider, and listen to your community.
CyberGh0st Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.10.06 18:34:00 - [50] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/10/2010 14:53:26 Originally by: King Pleasure [...]in spite of the large number of protest posts[...] ...and quite a few support posts... Let me rephrase it more vigorously : people protesting against PLEX-for-remap are at best dirt-ISK-poor wussies, at worst entitlement-filled morons. Originally by: BeanBagKing That makes me sad :( One of the reasons I love Eve is it's lack of micro-transactions. Cash -> GTC//PLEX -> ISK -> almost anything else (INCLUDING high-skills characters). We already have some twisted stealthed form of microtransactions. We've had them for years. This is not radically different at all. Plex for subs = RMT between players, and NOT microtransactions. Remap for plex = buying directly from CCP = microtransactions. Please educate yourself. http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
dtyk	Posted - 2010.10.06 18:39:00 - [51] What bothers me about this thing: The players reactions. Stop being whiny *******s, please.
TigerXtrm Iron-Sky DEM0N HUNTERS	Posted - 2010.10.06 18:42:00 - [52] If people want to spend 15 bux on something that will speed up training in certain skills they can go right ahead, I don't care. On a 30 day skills it shaves off like 3 days... whoopdie ****ing doo. If those 3 days are worth 15 bux (or 300m isk, take your pick, it comes down to the same thing) then you need a life, quite bad. So I don't care about this particular thing, however where is the line drawn? Now it's attributes? In 2 years we could be reading about plans to spend 1 plex for 500.000 free skillpoints. And while that is equally insane to do on any grand scale (as it would require a few dozen plexes to get any big skill at any decent level), you KNOW someone out there is going to do it. There are plenty of lifeless idiots in this game who apparently have no problem spending thousands of dollars on improving their charachter. Hell, I know certain people in Eve who would gladly pay 1000 dollars or more to get their Titan skills up without the horrible wait. So yes, slippery slope. Very slippery. Right CCP don't want players to buy a significant advantage with RL money. But that might change in 2 years as well when they finally figure out that Dust is going to fail insanely and they will be stuck with the few million they put into development.
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.06 18:45:00 - [53] Can someone pleas link or quote when in discussions that started after SP reimbursement was announced, CCP clearly denied any plans of introducing mistranslations at this time? Polished content =/= broken and unbalanced content.
Jaghatie Khan Smokin Aces.	Posted - 2010.10.06 18:46:00 - [54] I don't see how bringing in new revenue that could keep the game alive as well as provide more money for more development could possibly be a bad thing.
Dharh Gallente Ace Adventure Corp	Posted - 2010.10.06 19:07:00 - [55] Originally by: Jaghatie Khan I don't see how bringing in new revenue that could keep the game alive as well as provide more money for more development could possibly be a bad thing. People are scared CCP is going to put stuff in the store that will shrink their e-peen. Which I think is an unfounded fear, but whatever. They think being able to buy remaps is a slippery slope, and that it goes against what the majority of the players want, when instead it is a half measure to what a majority of people really want, which is to do away with attributes altogether including all the learning skills. People _hate_ the learning skills and the attributes mess, which was why CCP added remaps in the first place. Most bad decisions in EVE cost you, they can even cost you alot, but they generally don't cost you for the entire lifetime of your character. Bad attribute placements can cripple your characters potential. Remaps made it so at the very least you could wait a year and get back on track. Being able to buy a remap with PLEX can finally open up dead end characters. Personally though, id rather they added a new Attribute Remap Coupon (ARC) that could be bought for 300M ISK. You could trade a PLEX for an ARC on the normal market, but at least it would make more sense to me. Otherwise, then id have to agree with the majority that attributes and learning skills should be done away with, making this whole PLEX for remap issue moot. It would still **** off some people, but who cares. They suck anyway.
Cobalt Sixty Caldari Invictus Australis BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.10.06 19:09:00 - [56] Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 06/10/2010 19:11:44 Originally by: King Pleasure Nor am I surprised we're hearing about it on a third party site first. This is for me a bigger gripe than PLEX for anything - I've grown weary of these instances when external sources are more informative. Anyway, Here is food for thought: imagine if you only got X number of posts here per month you're subscribed. You'd also have to spend Y number of posts (which would be a respectable chunk of your X) to start a new thread. However, you could exchange a PLEX for Z number of posts (an order of magnitude more than X) to burn through on top of X and without any expiry. Maybe then some of you people would be less eager with your ****ting up this forum with posts about how EVE is dying this time. At least if you weren't you might literally pay for it.
King Pleasure	Posted - 2010.10.06 19:17:00 - [57] Originally by: Cobalt Sixty Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 06/10/2010 19:11:44 Here is food for thought: imagine if you only got X number of posts here per month you're subscribed. You'd also have to spend Y number of posts (which would be a respectable chunk of your X) to start a new thread. However, you could exchange a PLEX for Z number of posts (an order of magnitude more than X) to burn through on top of X and without any expiry. Maybe then some of you people would be less eager with your ****ting up this forum with posts about how EVE is dying this time. At least if you weren't you might literally pay for it. Yeah, but then I might actually have to go and play EVE. Regardless of what I said before this, you should remember that only about 1 in 20 of my posts have any real purpose.
CyberGh0st Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.10.06 19:21:00 - [58] Originally by: Dasubervixen And so ends EvE as we knew it. yep http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
mechtech SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.10.06 19:27:00 - [59] "Personally though, id rather they added a new Attribute Remap Coupon (ARC) that could be bought for 300M ISK" I totally agree with this. I don't see why they are linking remaps to a 30-day timecard. My preferred solution would to have remaps available through in game means (manufactured w/ PI goods for example). If you want to buy a remap with $$, buy a PLEX and cash it. This change is just a money grab that will artificially put upward pressure on PLEX price, which in turn increases PLEX demand. Mission accomplished I guess, but the whole thing makes me uneasy.
Julia Reave J-Systems	Posted - 2010.10.06 21:01:00 - [60] Edited by: Julia Reave on 06/10/2010 21:02:28 Originally by: Dzajic Can someone pleas link or quote when in discussions that started after SP reimbursement was announced, CCP clearly denied any plans of introducing mistranslations at this time? http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1341909/page/all#20 EDIT: Linkified.
ninjaholic Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2010.10.06 21:04:00 - [61] Why not just have an ISK-based fee for an early neural remap? This just invigorates the current PLEX trade market, without changing the game in any drastic way. + Support EVE's own IN-GAME fight record tool!
Cebraio	Posted - 2010.10.06 21:07:00 - [62] Originally by: Illwill Bill Originally by: Akita T Entropia I see my sarcasm passed un-noticed. It did not. I understood what kind of dinosaur you are looking for and lol'ed for a split-second. Then I remembered the topic of this thread and became sad panda again. Let me say it again (since saying the same stuff over and over has a long tradition here): I have nothing against PLEX for remaps or remaps every 24 hours, if they really want BUT I frckn know that they will put more and more micro-transaction ** into the game, not just vanity-items but also game mechanic altering stuff. Originally by:** Bhattran Confirming that CCP is no better than any other money grubbing corporation, too bad I didn't know them when they were the 'indie game developer' people have occasionally talked about. They are still calling themselves independent game company, because technically that's what they are. They don't have a publisher to report to. Unfortunately that doesn't mean they are real 'indies' and aren't becoming greedy like the big publishers.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.10.06 21:08:00 - [63] Originally by: Cobalt Sixty Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 06/10/2010 19:11:44 Originally by: King Pleasure Nor am I surprised we're hearing about it on a third party site first. This is for me a bigger gripe than PLEX for anything - I've grown weary of these instances when external sources are more informative. Anyway, Here is food for thought: imagine if you only got X number of posts here per month you're subscribed. You'd also have to spend Y number of posts (which would be a respectable chunk of your X) to start a new thread. However, you could exchange a PLEX for Z number of posts (an order of magnitude more than X) to burn through on top of X and without any expiry. Maybe then some of you people would be less eager with your ***ting up this forum with posts about how EVE is dying this time. At least if you weren't you might literally pay for it. Poasting while it's still free! Then people would whine because they can never catch up* with my post count (Never mind Akita's!). In fact I want CCP to do this now because then I will be the one that's laughing. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Cobalt Sixty Caldari Invictus Australis BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.10.06 23:05:00 - [64] Originally by: Malcanis Poasting while it's still free! Then people would whine because they can never catch up with my post count (Never mind Akita's!). In fact I want CCP to do this now because then I will be the one that's laughing. Don't get too excited, they'd probably have to update the forum first ...
alittlebirdy	Posted - 2010.10.06 23:21:00 - [65] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/10/2010 14:53:26 Originally by: King Pleasure [...]in spite of the large number of protest posts[...] ...and quite a few support posts... Let me rephrase it more vigorously : people protesting against PLEX-for-remap are at best dirt-ISK-poor wussies, at worst entitlement-filled morons. Originally by: BeanBagKing That makes me sad :( One of the reasons I love Eve is it's lack of micro-transactions. Cash -> GTC//PLEX -> ISK -> almost anything else (INCLUDING high-skills characters). We already have some twisted stealthed form of microtransactions. We've had them for years. This is not radically different at all. Do you get more stupid by the day? All you are is a rich snob, lol @ dirt poor people protesting, you fail, as always. CCP is now about money, go play some WoT, you buy gold (plex) and use gold (plex) to get 50% more credits (isk) and XP (SP) for everygame you play (day your are subbed). Yep this aint just a stepping stone for CCP to go into buying SP or 100% train speed or something. Burn 2 plex's for 1 month 200% to speed watch, or better yet, where is the CCP in me, 150%. Customers Cash Pwns. not gameplay pwns, or customers satafaction, CASH.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.06 23:26:00 - [66] Edited by: Akita T on 06/10/2010 23:30:56 Originally by: alittlebirdy CCP is now about money Game company that grew past some point now trying to earn more money, oh, the horror ! This has ceased being news well over a year ago. Or maybe even two. P.S. When they REALLY introduce micropayments for stuff that has a SIGNIFICANT impact and offers heavy-duty cash payers noticeable advantages over basic payment types, THEN you can start crying "sellout". Meanwhile, HTFU. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
alittlebirdy	Posted - 2010.10.06 23:28:00 - [67] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: alittlebirdy CCP is now about money This has ceased being news over a year ago. Yep but it is pretty much undeniable fact now. Just waiting for a remix of "american pie" (the day the music died) to eve.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.06 23:54:00 - [68] Originally by: alittlebirdy Just waiting for a remix of "american pie" (the day the music died) to eve. I'd wait until the day they announce "+1 mil SP for 1 PLEX" or "State Issue Raven for 10 PLEX". Which will hopefully come about on a Neversday, 30 February 20ɷɞ _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
mechtech SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.10.07 00:08:00 - [69] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/10/2010 23:30:56 P.S. When they REALLY introduce micropayments for stuff that has a SIGNIFICANT impact and offers heavy-duty cash payers noticeable advantages over basic payment types, THEN you can start crying "sellout". Meanwhile, HTFU. I think it's better to ***** and moan now rather than later tbh. If I start seeing haircuts and eye-color changes for PLEX (aka money) when WiS comes around I'm going to puke . Micro-transactions cheapen a game experience, they shouldn't even start it.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.10.07 00:30:00 - [70] Originally by: Bernard Schuyler Originally by: BeanBagKing That makes me sad :( One of the reasons I love Eve is it's lack of micro-transactions. While I agree, I will note that it isn't necessarily your microtransaction. Many players use PLEX without forking over a dime. If there was no PLEX but you could buy remaps for 300m ISK would it even be an issue for debate? Only thing I would say there is why charge for a re-map. It's just a way to screw more real life currency out of people. Simple fact is companies are getting greedy and a lot of people don't seem to give a damn. Eventually it'll just ruin the game.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.07 01:00:00 - [71] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: BeanBagKing That makes me sad :( One of the reasons I love Eve is it's lack of micro-transactions. Cash -> GTC//PLEX -> ISK -> almost anything else (INCLUDING high-skills characters). We already have some twisted stealthed form of microtransactions. We've had them for years. This is not radically different at all. Wow, this is possibly the first time I've ever disagreed with one of your posts. Oh well. There is a difference between what they're proposing, Akita T, and what we currently have. And honestly, I'd expect you of all people to see it. What We Have: Currently, when you exchange a PLEX for ISK, no ISK is actually added to the game. All of the ISK was earned through normal in-game methods. The PLEX for ISK system is not something I like, but it's not game-breaking since nothing is added to the game when you buy a PLEX. What Is Coming: PLEXes for remaps will add things to the game solely because of an out-of-game monetary transaction. These basically boil down to you giving CCP, and in return, receiving a magically spawned item in your hangar (A remap credit). One form of microtransaction is somewhat tolerable (yet is still something I dislike). The other will be the wet dream of "the entitlement-filled morons" of this world since it will add things to EVE for no other reason than you gave CCP more money.
Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2010.10.07 01:56:00 - [72] I just worry CCP will devote 18-24months to nickel and diming Eve players after they have finished the "research has shown fluff makes us more money than polished features" cycle.
Xylopia Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.10.07 01:58:00 - [73] Oh my gawd CCP! You did it again! How cute of you really? All those protests, begging, and yelling do not work with you at all, do they? Let me guess. You'd better have a good plan for the accelerated skill training, otherwise... oh, well, what do I care. Just let me know when dollar for SP is going to be available at my hand. Until then, bring it on, just bring it moar! muhahahahahahahaha!
oil Double-L	Posted - 2010.10.07 02:06:00 - [74] the bad decisions add up. dust for consoles only bad priorities in developement slowly introducing microtransactions ill leave my 7 year old chars and wealth behind when they introduce sp for cash. ill cry but at that point eve wont be a game i care for anymore.
Agent Known	Posted - 2010.10.07 02:06:00 - [75] Would all of this posting happen if CCP just said "pay 300mil ISK" for a remap instead of a PLEX? People can buy PLEX on the market for 300m and get a remap. Big deal. People spend 10-15bil on a character and no one complains. People (illegally) buy characters on eBay. Remaps are a good way to speed up training if shiny skills are released or you want to change your plan and not be restricted for a year. I highly doubt CCP will start micro-transactions for actual in-game items outside of stuff for your avatar when Incarna comes out or something. If you're really that worried, just wait until the patch. If they start providing balance-changing elements to the game (well, I doubt anything would change because you can already do this using PLEX) then you can say "I told you so!" On another note, I also have an annoying sig.
Ke Rener	Posted - 2010.10.07 02:10:00 - [76] shame on u....
Orange Lagomorph	Posted - 2010.10.07 02:13:00 - [77] Edited by: Orange Lagomorph on 07/10/2010 02:15:02 Originally by: Agent Known Would all of this posting happen if CCP just said "pay 300mil ISK" for a remap instead of a PLEX? Yes it would, because there are very few in-game advantages you can buy with ISK that didn't first have to be earned, won or built by another player. Wardec fees, sov fees, jump clone fees, NPC corp tax, sales tax, reprocessing waste... these are primarily nickel-and-dime ISK sinks. Buying remaps is a clear case of A.) not being a player-to-player trade, and B.) not being a simple ISK sink, either. It's an advantage spawned from nothing (in game terms) by CCP.
T'Amber Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.10.07 05:42:00 - [78] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/10/2010 14:53:26 Originally by: King Pleasure [...]in spite of the large number of protest posts[...] ...and quite a few support posts... Let me rephrase it more vigorously : people protesting against PLEX-for-remap are at best dirt-ISK-poor wussies, at worst entitlement-filled morons. Originally by: BeanBagKing That makes me sad :( One of the reasons I love Eve is it's lack of micro-transactions. Cash -> GTC//PLEX -> ISK -> almost anything else (INCLUDING high-skills characters). We already have some twisted stealthed form of microtransactions. We've had them for years. This is not radically different at all. If you have time please vote your choice here http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1395464. The reason most people were against PLEX-REMAP is not the actual remaps, but CCP adding it as a microtransaction and the fear that they'd add more microtransactions to the game - which turns out to be true. While my original assembly post does not specifically state this (as I wanted people to make up their own mind), this is pretty obviously the main point of the post to most readers. While some people haven't taken the already existing plex issue into consideration regardless of it being on the first post, most do. I'm not sure about how much isk the people have who have voted so I couldn't comment. -T'amber [VANIR / AESIR WARS] C o m i n g S o o n Ö
Montevius Williams	Posted - 2010.10.07 05:46:00 - [79] I have no problem with this...CCP is a business and are here to make money. If you dont want to use micro transactions, done use them. Simple as that.
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2010.10.07 05:53:00 - [80] CCP i want cash shop NOW. I want to buy unique POS via PLEX. Why wait for my money ?
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.07 06:10:00 - [81] Originally by: Montevius Williams I have no problem with this...CCP is a business and are here to make money. If you dont want to use micro transactions, done use them. Simple as that. It's not as "simple as that". To say that is to be oblivious to the truth. Should worst come to worst, and microtransactions become a full blown feature in EVE that affect gameplay (which is pretty likely. Once they see how much money they're going to make with cosmetic microtransactions, of course they'll add in game-affecting microtransactions), you will see game debilitating things like "Five PLEXes for a Carrier!" and "Three PLEXes for 10 million SPs!" in the inevitable CCP Store. EVE is all about working hard, and slowly over time to reach long term goals. To remove this is to remove a core element of the game.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.10.07 06:38:00 - [82] Quote: We will evolve just like everyone else. We will certainly not become a dinosaur. That has not been our style. What a stupid reasoning. So if the art department of EA jumps in front of a train then the art department of CCP will do the same, just to "evolve" like everyone else. Gimme a break.
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E Talos Coalition	Posted - 2010.10.07 06:51:00 - [83] if having more real life money means you are having an advantage over other players. this game is heading towards its end. Also we could remap our skills twice a year. for free what happend with that? learning for a titan just remap your skills so you actualy have a +10 implant. Do not click this ad.
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2010.10.07 06:58:00 - [84] Edited by: Umega on 07/10/2010 07:01:19 Originally by: dtyk What bothers me about this thing: The players reactions. Stop being whiny *******s, please. +1 People.. get over it and move on til something tangiable surfaces that confirms EVE doomsday predictions. Right now, the re-map for a plex is irrelevent. Some person can buy 210 USD worth of plex, sell it ingame.. go buy themselves a 3 bil character with enough left over to buy 10-100 pvp fitted ships and knock themselves out in the time span of a day of just starting. So lets quit acting like microtransaction hasn't existed in EVE before. The incarnation of microtransaction that would bother me, and have me on the pitchfork n torch bandwagon is something like a ship or mod that can only be aquired via rl money.. that would bother me. BUT.. this is EVE.. and the HILARIOUS moment those things get blown up, would make me forget and probably love this game even more. Try considering that prospective. But.. In that interview, it was stated that they would not implement anything that would create an unfair advantage. So til such a moment actually arrives.. LET IT GO! Yeesh.. this is like a History Channel convention talking about how some 2000 year old indian has told us we're all going to die in 2 years.. and that its true, oh so very true! Also.. Get over the fact the ingame prices of PLEX are going to rise and it is going to be more difficult for some of you to maintain multiple seperate accounts. I honestly think that is the biggest beef with some people raging.. using the mask of 'microtransactions' to create an immoral stigma around the whole thing. Again.. I'll rage too if say a Freki like ship is made available through the use of rl money only, even being able to afford one.. I don't like that idealogy and wouldn't contribute myself. BUT, imagine.. the good times, the threads, the rage, the laughter.. when such $$$ items get blown up! Oh man.. the thought, almost tickles me in the wrong way that makes me desire.. damn you CCP and your evil seductive mistress Eve! History already exists of such a thing taking place.. it starts with an unexpecting lil character, I believe his name was Kestrel.. and he grew up in a place called Jita... EDIT: yeah, I suck at grammEr ---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it-
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.07 07:01:00 - [85] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 07/10/2010 07:06:47 Originally by: Garia666 if having more real life money means you are having an advantage over other players. this game is heading towards its end. It's already this way in numerous ways. If RL money = ISK you can buy better ships and fit them with faction/deadspace stuff to get that aforementioned advantage. And RL money for ISK for +5s already speeds your training. Not to speak of RL money for ISK for characters. So how isn't that NOT already in the game? Originally by: Nullity EVE is all about working hard, and slowly over time to reach long term goals. To remove this is to remove a core element of the game. Working hard, you're joking right? Afk mining for months while your skills are training up or not playing at all and just inserting skills get you just as far. It's all about patience, not "hard work". Unless you want to call watching the clock ticking away the days hard work.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.07 07:07:00 - [86] Originally by: Jennifer Starling Originally by: Nullity EVE is all about working hard, and slowly over time to reach long term goals. To remove this is to remove a core element of the game. Working hard, you're joking right? Afk mining for months while your skills are training up or not playing at all and just inserting skills get you just as far. It's all about patience, not "hard work". Unless you want to call watching the clock ticking away the days hard work. "Working hard" may have been the wrong term to use, but you do have to have a certain amount of intelligence and cleverness to truly get ahead in EVE.
Valeronx Celestial Horizon Corp. United Corporate Ventures	Posted - 2010.10.07 08:08:00 - [87] Edited by: Valeronx on 07/10/2010 08:10:17 Originally by: Nullity "Working hard" may have been the wrong term to use, but you do have to have a certain amount of intelligence and cleverness to truly get ahead in EVE. Correct. And thats why even if CCP put every item from Titans to HG Slave Implants to Skill Points for sale as Microtransactions it will not make a bit of difference. A fool buys his bling ship, bling mods, and bling bling, undocks and gets owned because he does not have a clue what EVE is all about. That is NO different from the way it is now, except that today the fool must actually skill up to sit in the ship to undock it. I can't imagine a decent Ganker, or lowsec Pirate or Suicide killer not looking forward to the possibility of more fat, juicy, stupid, over rich and under talented people to blow up. I LOVE Hulkageddon and would like to see a few hundred more clueless dumb bunnies sitting in the Empire space Belts who have no clue what the phrase "Stay aligned and watch Local" means. . .
Liandra Xi Amarr Ascendent.	Posted - 2010.10.07 08:14:00 - [88] I don't see the problem with this idea......
Grukni	Posted - 2010.10.07 08:16:00 - [89] I would rather see Plex for facial surgery/body sculpting than this. Remapping is not just vanity, portraits are.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.07 08:33:00 - [90] Edited by: Tippia on 07/10/2010 08:36:46 Originally by: Akita T Let me rephrase it more vigorously : people protesting against PLEX-for-remap are at best dirt-ISK-poor wussies, at worst entitlement-filled morons. Categorical statemens are categorically incorrect, moron. Or wellà I suppose I don't protest PLEX for remaps ù I protest the idiocy of anything for remaps. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Cobalt Sixty Caldari Invictus Australis BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.10.07 09:31:00 - [91] Further food for thought: imagine spending a PLEX to redistribute SP from your learned skills but then the SP itself can be directly converted into a tradable form that can then be exchanged between players as a normal commodity.
Hauling Hal	Posted - 2010.10.07 09:43:00 - [92] How about Remaps being a service at a station that costs ISK. Then players can decide whether to use PLEXes to buy the ISK or not and this keeps with Eve's current mechanics. Personally, I don't care either way. I can't be bothered to fit decent implants as I'd lose them in PvP, so my skills train at the speed they train.
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.10.07 09:49:00 - [93] Originally by: Nullity Wow, this is possibly the first time I've ever disagreed with one of your posts. Oh well. There is a difference between what they're proposing, Akita T, and what we currently have. And honestly, I'd expect you of all people to see it. What We Have: Currently, when you exchange a PLEX for ISK, no ISK is actually added to the game. All of the ISK was earned through normal in-game methods. The PLEX for ISK system is not something I like, but it's not game-breaking since nothing is added to the game when you buy a PLEX. What Is Coming: PLEXes for remaps will add things to the game solely because of an out-of-game monetary transaction. These basically boil down to you giving CCP, and in return, receiving a magically spawned item in your hangar (A remap credit). One form of microtransaction is somewhat tolerable (yet is still something I dislike). The other will be the wet dream of "the entitlement-filled morons" of this world since it will add things to EVE for no other reason than you gave CCP more money. Your post doesn't make sense. Isn't a PLEX a magically spawned item in your hanger anyway? It's the same item that is traded on the market for isk. So arguing that PLEX for isk doesn't spawn a magic item but PLEX for remap does.... just.... Trying to decide whether or not this is a veteran trolling to try and protect his character farming, or really someone who doesn't read his own posts. ---
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.07 09:53:00 - [94] Edited by: Nullity on 07/10/2010 09:55:53 Originally by: Valeronx Edited by: Valeronx on 07/10/2010 08:10:17 Originally by: Nullity "Working hard" may have been the wrong term to use, but you do have to have a certain amount of intelligence and cleverness to truly get ahead in EVE. Correct. And thats why even if CCP put every item from Titans to HG Slave Implants to Skill Points for sale as Microtransactions it will not make a bit of difference. A fool buys his bling ship, bling mods, and bling bling, undocks and gets owned because he does not have a clue what EVE is all about. That is NO different from the way it is now, except that today the fool must actually skill up to sit in the ship to undock it. It does make a difference. This whole game is built around the most intricate virtual economy ever created. To add in true microtransactions (I am not referring to RMT here, i.e. PLEX for ISK that already exists) would make it so you could spawn items into the game through actions that took place firmly outside of the game. Once that dam is broken, the EVE economy will be in disrepair because it basically depends on people to actually play the game. If you could spend 5 USD and get a new HAC instantly, they'd soon be worthless, and with ships worthless, the game will cease to be fun since the loss factor would be mitigated. Also, what the hell is the fascination for customers of these kind of games to mix up real money with a virtual world? Isn't the whole point of MMORPGs to create a second world, free from... basically life? Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: Nullity Wow, this is possibly the first time I've ever disagreed with one of your posts. Oh well. There is a difference between what they're proposing, Akita T, and what we currently have. And honestly, I'd expect you of all people to see it. What We Have: Currently, when you exchange a PLEX for ISK, no ISK is actually added to the game. All of the ISK was earned through normal in-game methods. The PLEX for ISK system is not something I like, but it's not game-breaking since nothing is added to the game when you buy a PLEX. What Is Coming: PLEXes for remaps will add things to the game solely because of an out-of-game monetary transaction. These basically boil down to you giving CCP, and in return, receiving a magically spawned item in your hangar (A remap credit). One form of microtransaction is somewhat tolerable (yet is still something I dislike). The other will be the wet dream of "the entitlement-filled morons" of this world since it will add things to EVE for no other reason than you gave CCP more money. Your post doesn't make sense. Isn't a PLEX a magically spawned item in your hanger anyway? It's the same item that is traded on the market for isk. So arguing that PLEX for isk doesn't spawn a magic item but PLEX for remap does.... just.... Trying to decide whether or not this is a veteran trolling to try and protect his character farming, or really someone who doesn't read his own posts. A PLEX is an item that represents an out of game item which you bought. Nothing is truly added to the game when you buy one except the PLEX game-item (which has no affect on anything in the game without a customer to buy it). When someone trades ISK to you for the PLEX, nothing is actually generated in the game besides the stand-in, virtual item for the GTC.
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.07 09:55:00 - [95] Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: Nullity Wow, this is possibly the first time I've ever disagreed with one of your posts. Oh well. There is a difference between what they're proposing, Akita T, and what we currently have. And honestly, I'd expect you of all people to see it. What We Have: Currently, when you exchange a PLEX for ISK, no ISK is actually added to the game. All of the ISK was earned through normal in-game methods. The PLEX for ISK system is not something I like, but it's not game-breaking since nothing is added to the game when you buy a PLEX. What Is Coming: PLEXes for remaps will add things to the game solely because of an out-of-game monetary transaction. These basically boil down to you giving CCP, and in return, receiving a magically spawned item in your hangar (A remap credit). One form of microtransaction is somewhat tolerable (yet is still something I dislike). The other will be the wet dream of "the entitlement-filled morons" of this world since it will add things to EVE for no other reason than you gave CCP more money. Your post doesn't make sense. Isn't a PLEX a magically spawned item in your hanger anyway? It's the same item that is traded on the market for isk. So arguing that PLEX for isk doesn't spawn a magic item but PLEX for remap does.... just.... Trying to decide whether or not this is a veteran trolling to try and protect his character farming, or really someone who doesn't read his own posts. The reason it sounds like trolling is because people who follow this mindset forget to factor in that the existence of PLEX, while not magically creating isk out of nothing, IS driving people to generate more isk through NPC farming and mining at a much higher rate than previously seen. PLEX HAS generated isk that didn't exist before, it's just not directly injected due to the addition of a new PLEX, it's generated slowly through the player base. But oh well. That factor quashes their arguments, so they refuse to see it.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.07 09:57:00 - [96] Originally by: Cupio Mortem Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: Nullity Wow, this is possibly the first time I've ever disagreed with one of your posts. Oh well. There is a difference between what they're proposing, Akita T, and what we currently have. And honestly, I'd expect you of all people to see it. What We Have: Currently, when you exchange a PLEX for ISK, no ISK is actually added to the game. All of the ISK was earned through normal in-game methods. The PLEX for ISK system is not something I like, but it's not game-breaking since nothing is added to the game when you buy a PLEX. What Is Coming: PLEXes for remaps will add things to the game solely because of an out-of-game monetary transaction. These basically boil down to you giving CCP, and in return, receiving a magically spawned item in your hangar (A remap credit). One form of microtransaction is somewhat tolerable (yet is still something I dislike). The other will be the wet dream of "the entitlement-filled morons" of this world since it will add things to EVE for no other reason than you gave CCP more money. Your post doesn't make sense. Isn't a PLEX a magically spawned item in your hanger anyway? It's the same item that is traded on the market for isk. So arguing that PLEX for isk doesn't spawn a magic item but PLEX for remap does.... just.... Trying to decide whether or not this is a veteran trolling to try and protect his character farming, or really someone who doesn't read his own posts. The reason it sounds like trolling is because people who follow this mindset forget to factor in that the existence of PLEX, while not magically creating isk out of nothing, IS driving people to generate more isk through NPC farming and mining at a much higher rate than previously seen. PLEX HAS generated isk that didn't exist before, it's just not directly injected due to the addition of a new PLEX, it's generated slowly through the player base. But oh well. That factor quashes their arguments, so they refuse to see it. That doesn't quash anything. You're essentially saying that PLEXes have made more people play the game as they normally would. Regardless of people wanting to buy a PLEX or not, people would still grind for ISK. Perhaps PLEXes bring more ISK into the game because they enable more people to actually play, but when there's more people playing the game, there's more potential ISK sinks, thus I really don't see the problem.
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.10.07 09:58:00 - [97] Originally by: ninjaholic Why not just have an ISK-based fee for an early neural remap? This just invigorates the current PLEX trade market, without changing the game in any drastic way. DING DING, we have a winner! This is why people are so outraged with this, while providing no coherent argumentation other than "Micro transactions are bad" and a whole load of bull**** they don't understand, and just feel like jumping on a bandwagon some bitter veterans started because they want to protect their character farms and cheaper PLEXs to fund their game time with. The reason why these people are bandwagoning against "micro transactions" and "SP for ISK guise" is because they are against raising the price of Plexes, or the value of characters dropping. I have seen no coherent argument that doesn't suggest that most of the people mad here either want to jump on the hate ccp bandwagon and don't understand anything, pay for their gametime using isk, or are farming characters. ---
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.07 10:00:00 - [98] Edited by: Nullity on 07/10/2010 10:01:54 Edited by: Nullity on 07/10/2010 10:01:37 Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: ninjaholic Why not just have an ISK-based fee for an early neural remap? This just invigorates the current PLEX trade market, without changing the game in any drastic way. DING DING, we have a winner! This is why people are so outraged with this, while providing no coherent argumentation other than "Micro transactions are bad" and a whole load of bull**** they don't understand, and just feel like jumping on a bandwagon some bitter veterans started because they want to protect their character farms and cheaper PLEXs to fund their game time with. The reason why these people are bandwagoning against "micro transactions" and "SP for ISK guise" is because they are against raising the price of Plexes, or the value of characters dropping. I have seen no coherent argument that doesn't suggest that most of the people mad here either want to jump on the hate ccp bandwagon and don't understand anything, pay for their gametime using isk, or are farming characters. I have not paid for this game with PLEXes bought through ISK in six and a half years, and I don't intend to. I don't care what the value of PLEXes or characters is. We're upset because this boils down to CCP only generating an in-game advantage (a small in-game advantage, but one all the same) if someone gives CCP real life money. It's really that clear.
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.10.07 10:01:00 - [99] Originally by: Nullity A PLEX is an item that represents an out of game item which you bought. Nothing is truly added to the game when you buy one except the PLEX game-item (which has no affect on anything in the game without a customer to buy it). When someone trades ISK to you for the PLEX, nothing is actually generated in the game besides the stand-in, virtual item for the GTC. And nothing is added to the game when you Buy a PLEX, and use it for a remap. Total isk and items in the game remains the same. ---
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.07 10:03:00 - [100] Edited by: Nullity on 07/10/2010 10:04:34 Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: Nullity A PLEX is an item that represents an out of game item which you bought. Nothing is truly added to the game when you buy one except the PLEX game-item (which has no affect on anything in the game without a customer to buy it). When someone trades ISK to you for the PLEX, nothing is actually generated in the game besides the stand-in, virtual item for the GTC. And nothing is added to the game when you Buy a PLEX, and use it for a remap. Total isk and items in the game remains the same. A remap credit is added. I must stress, once again, that an off-schedule remap credit is not a huge advantage, but on principle, I'm against it because I truly dislike microtransactions (and where they lead).
King Pleasure	Posted - 2010.10.07 10:04:00 - [101] Edited by: King Pleasure on 07/10/2010 10:06:36 Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: ninjaholic Why not just have an ISK-based fee for an early neural remap? This just invigorates the current PLEX trade market, without changing the game in any drastic way. DING DING, we have a winner! This is why people are so outraged with this, while providing no coherent argumentation other than "Micro transactions are bad" and a whole load of bull** they don't understand, and just feel like jumping on a bandwagon some bitter veterans started because they want to protect their character farms and cheaper PLEXs to fund their game time with. The reason why these people are bandwagoning against "micro transactions" and "SP for ISK guise" is because they are against raising the price of Plexes, or the value of characters dropping. I have seen no coherent argument that doesn't suggest that most of the people mad here either want to jump on the hate ccp bandwagon and don't understand anything, pay for their gametime using isk, or are farming characters. That's not true. At least in my case. I'm bandwagoning against this because I've played other games which have introduced micro transactions and seen the slow decline in quality that came as a result. In an earlier post in this thread I mentioned that for me, the PLEX for Remap was less of an issue than the statement that they would be introducing items that are of a novelty value through micro transactions. As I see it, or have seen it in the past, the introduction of any form of MT's slowly snowballs as the company comes to the conclusion that it's a good way to milk some extra cash out of your already subscribing player base. And that's why I'm against it. I'm also annoyed that they never communicate their intentions of the forums. And of course that when they do, it turns out they're either uninformed or lying through their teeth. (Shadow and the no MT's planned) Edit - Quote:** I have not paid for this game with PLEXes bought through ISK in six and a half years, and I don't intend to. I don't care what the value of PLEXes or characters is. We're upset because this boils down to CCP only generating an in-game advantage (a small in-game advantage, but one all the same) if someone gives CCP real life money. It's really that clear. and of course this. Which says another thing I should of mentioned but neglected. Vote NO to PLEX for Remap.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.07 10:05:00 - [102] Originally by: King Pleasure Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: ninjaholic Why not just have an ISK-based fee for an early neural remap? This just invigorates the current PLEX trade market, without changing the game in any drastic way. DING DING, we have a winner! This is why people are so outraged with this, while providing no coherent argumentation other than "Micro transactions are bad" and a whole load of bull**** they don't understand, and just feel like jumping on a bandwagon some bitter veterans started because they want to protect their character farms and cheaper PLEXs to fund their game time with. The reason why these people are bandwagoning against "micro transactions" and "SP for ISK guise" is because they are against raising the price of Plexes, or the value of characters dropping. I have seen no coherent argument that doesn't suggest that most of the people mad here either want to jump on the hate ccp bandwagon and don't understand anything, pay for their gametime using isk, or are farming characters. That's not true. At least in my case. I'm bandwagoning against this because I've played other games which have introduced micro transactions and seen the slow decline in quality that came as a result. In an earlier post in this thread I mentioned that for me, the PLEX for Remap was less of an issue than the statement that they would be introducing items that are of a novelty value through micro transactions. As I see it, or have seen it in the past, the introduction of any form of MT's slowly snowballs as the company comes to the conclusion that it's a good way to milk some extra cash out of your already subscribing player base. And that's why I'm against it. I'm also annoyed that they never communicate their intentions of the forums. And of course that when they do, it turns out they're either uninformed or lying through their teeth. (Shadow and the no MT's planned) To be frank, CCP's communication died after the t20 incident. Ever since then it's been silence, or half-truths.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.07 10:25:00 - [103] Originally by: Tippia Or wellà I suppose I don't protest PLEX for remaps ù I protest the idiocy of anything for remaps. TBQFH, the mere fact remaps EXIST at all instead of having a character dead-set on starter attributes is what was mildly bothersome. But if you do have remaps anyway, I have nothing against relaxing the time limits in exchange (indirectly) for ISK. And if CCP makes money from that too (by making it PLEX-only), it doesn't bother me the least. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2010.10.07 10:31:00 - [104] Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 07/10/2010 10:33:16 Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 07/10/2010 10:32:00 Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: Nullity A PLEX is an item that represents an out of game item which you bought. Nothing is truly added to the game when you buy one except the PLEX game-item (which has no affect on anything in the game without a customer to buy it). When someone trades ISK to you for the PLEX, nothing is actually generated in the game besides the stand-in, virtual item for the GTC. And nothing is added to the game when you Buy a PLEX, and use it for a remap. Total isk and items in the game remains the same. There are more higher skilled characters in game. It effects the entire EVE economy. Perhaps effect is small in this particular case but IT DOES EXIST. And remember it is just a first step for killing the game as we know it.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.07 10:34:00 - [105] Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 There are more higher skilled characters in game. It effects the entire EVE economy. Perhaps effect is small in this particular case but IT DOES EXIST. Using the same logic, the mere fact people are allowed to have accounts training SP will also affect the entire EVE economy. In other words, at worst, you can argue that it "shifts the eve economy to a point it would have only reached a little bit later". So, no, it really DOESN'T affect the EVE economy in any meaningful way. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Manipulator General o.0	Posted - 2010.10.07 10:34:00 - [106] I wonder if this'll cause a significant increase in PLEX prices.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.10.07 10:39:00 - [107] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Tippia Or wellà I suppose I don't protest PLEX for remaps ù I protest the idiocy of anything for remaps. TBQFH, the mere fact remaps EXIST at all instead of having a character dead-set on starter attributes is what was mildly bothersome. But if you do have remaps anyway, I have nothing against relaxing the time limits in exchange (indirectly) for ISK. And if CCP makes money from that too (by making it PLEX-only), it doesn't bother me the least. With the earlier character creation systems, people were able to mess up their learning attribute points and frequently did with no way to alter it afterwards other than starting a new character. Which is why I guess re-maps were introduced.
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.07 10:45:00 - [108] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 07/10/2010 10:46:29 Originally by: Nullity This whole game is built around the most intricate virtual economy ever created. To add in true microtransactions (I am not referring to RMT here, i.e. PLEX for ISK that already exists) would make it so you could spawn items into the game through actions that took place firmly outside of the game. Once that dam is broken, the EVE economy will be in disrepair because it basically depends on people to actually play the game. If you could spend 5 USD and get a new HAC instantly, they'd soon be worthless, and with ships worthless, the game will cease to be fun since the loss factor would be mitigated. Also, what the hell is the fascination for customers of these kind of games to mix up real money with a virtual world? Isn't the whole point of MMORPGs to create a second world, free from... basically life? The mere fact that PLEX doesn't change anything in the game (SP or ISK) doesn't mean it's not a RL transaction that triggers it. What that is concerned your "second world, free from... basically life?" didn't exist anyway. For the person that's now buying plex for stuff, there isn't much difference between either of: * RL Money -> PLEX -> ISK -> goodies * RL Money -> ISK -> goodies * RL Money -> goodies That these different options have totally different effects on the in-game economy is another discussion; fact remains that RL money can already greatly benefit your gameplay options.
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2010.10.07 10:46:00 - [109] Originally by: Akita T Using the same logic, the mere fact people are allowed to have accounts training SP will also affect the entire EVE economy. In other words, at worst, you can argue that it "shifts the eve economy to a point it would have only reached a little bit later". Yes but this shift happens for the people with bigger RL wallets . Thats the point. Yes you could by character before but someone else lost it also. As i said it is still minor effect , but its a start. As for second part of my post , you obviously have no clue what i meant.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.07 10:55:00 - [110] Originally by: ninjaholic Why not just have an ISK-based fee for an early neural remap? This just invigorates the current PLEX trade market, without changing the game in any drastic way. It changes the game the exact same drastic way: you're still paying for the privilege of ignoring game mechanics. That's what bothers me about this whole idea. I couldn't care less about the whole microtransaction/PLEX/subscription/$$$ debate ù it's the notion that they let us ignore game mechanics if we are willing to pay for it that is thoroughly bothersome and, indeed, an entirely new and unique change to the game. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.07 11:20:00 - [111] Originally by: Nullity I really don't see.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.07 11:21:00 - [112] Originally by: Cupio Mortem Originally by: Nullity I really don't see. And you were wondering why people say you're trolling?
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.07 11:29:00 - [113] Originally by: Nullity Originally by: Cupio Mortem Originally by: Nullity I really don't see. And you were wondering why people say you're trolling? I was wondering?
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.10.07 11:37:00 - [114] Originally by: Cupio Mortem Originally by: Nullity Originally by: Cupio Mortem Originally by: Nullity I really don't see. And you were wondering why people say you're trolling? I was wondering? You sure were, at least as far as he's concerned. Suggestion: Remove the "new topic" button from everywhere apart from the list of topics section within a subforum. That'd save those with chronic hand/eye coordination some face.
Lubomir Penev Sausages of Truth	Posted - 2010.10.07 12:14:00 - [115] Originally by: Akita T We already have some twisted stealthed form of microtransactions. We've had them for years. This is not radically different at all. This is overt. That makes it different. --
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.07 12:24:00 - [116] Microtransactions really only have place in F2P games, and subscription based MMOs doing it are a disgrace. And I'd much prefer eve to remain subscription based without microtransactions, than F2P with utransactions. Second. Eventually we will have T3 ammo, T4 ships, better implants than HG sets, and all exclusively purchasable trough PLEX or a e-store on EVE website. And a open honest money for items web store is a more logical solution, ans PLEX being $15 is quite a bit of money for a "micro" transaction. No MMOs out there allow direct purchase of e-store items for in game cash. You can at best buy them for in game cash from other players, at obscene prices. CCP might allow us to buy them in game for PLEXes only because each and every PLEX is money in CCPs pockets. And looking at how EVE works. Very soon after meaningful stuff can be bough trough microtrans, big 0.0 powers will require or strongly suggest to their members to buy this or that, same with elite solo PVPers who do elite solo PVP with 2 or 3 logi and support alts standing by. Polished content =/= broken and unbalanced content.
Calmoto Minmatar Spiritus Draconis	Posted - 2010.10.07 12:39:00 - [117] ccp listen up! i have very deep pockets you want all my amazing monies? ok.. I want you to make me an implant that gives the effect of 200% speed bonus, 200% shield boost bonus, %200 shield and armour, 99% resists across the board, -100% cost to ships on market, 200% bigger ***** I will pay you money to give me this implant that does not destroy on death i await your money grabbing pathetic selfs to come a knocking soon
Jodi Goulsti No Salvation	Posted - 2010.10.07 12:54:00 - [118] Would anyone be upset if I used the ISK I got from selling a PLEX to buy a set of +5 learning implants?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.07 13:26:00 - [119] Edited by: Akita T on 07/10/2010 13:32:43 Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Yes but this shift happens for the people with bigger RL wallets . Thats the point. No, it's not. PLEX is purchaseable through ISK too, so in-game wallets matter just as much as RL wallets. The distinction is not just irrelevant, but actually reversed, since there is no way (that wouldn't result in a ban) to turn ISK into cash, so in a way, it actually gives a much greater advantage to ISK-rich people than RL-cash-rich people. From where I'm standing, this looks almost like a "fidelity award". Quote: As for second part of my post , you obviously have no clue what i meant. I certainly do have a clue about what you meant : "waah, waah, I now have the feeling that RL cash matters in a game where beforehand I didn't have that feeling, ohnoes, everything is ruined forever, waah". Except that nothing REALLY changed, it's only your perception of the facts that has been altered. Originally by: Lubomir Penev This is overt. That makes it different. No, that makes it just slightly more obvious. Nothing is significantly different. Originally by: Jodi Goulsti Would anyone be upset if I used the ISK I got from selling a PLEX to buy a set of +5 learning implants? My point exactly. I'm willing to bet that was also quite the scandal back when GTC sales were first permitted. Yet look at how the recent past looked, nothing really bad happened because of it. If anything, it was the main source of additional entertainment via "honour tank" killmails and such. Originally by: Calmoto ccp listen up! i have very deep pockets you want all my amazing monies? ok.. I want you to make me an implant that gives the effect of 200% speed bonus, 200% shield boost bonus, %200 shield and armour, 99% resists across the board, -100% cost to ships on market, 200% bigger ***** I will pay you money to give me this implant that does not destroy on death i await your money grabbing pathetic selfs to come a knocking soon See, THIS is a typical response of what people FEAR will come about as a consequence of what's happening now. Basically the whole "slippery slope" argument... which by the way is most of the time a logical fallacy. In this case, anyway, IT CERTAINLY IS. You can start complaining for good when something that would have been otherwise impossible to achieve (given a little bit of time or effort) would be available ONLY through cash payments, not ISK. Only THEN you are really into "bad style" microtransaction land. Before then, there is absolutely no problem, gemeplay hypercapitalism FTW. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
CyberGh0st Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.10.07 14:43:00 - [120] Originally by: Cupio Mortem Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: Nullity Wow, this is possibly the first time I've ever disagreed with one of your posts. Oh well. There is a difference between what they're proposing, Akita T, and what we currently have. And honestly, I'd expect you of all people to see it. What We Have: Currently, when you exchange a PLEX for ISK, no ISK is actually added to the game. All of the ISK was earned through normal in-game methods. The PLEX for ISK system is not something I like, but it's not game-breaking since nothing is added to the game when you buy a PLEX. What Is Coming: PLEXes for remaps will add things to the game solely because of an out-of-game monetary transaction. These basically boil down to you giving CCP, and in return, receiving a magically spawned item in your hangar (A remap credit). One form of microtransaction is somewhat tolerable (yet is still something I dislike). The other will be the wet dream of "the entitlement-filled morons" of this world since it will add things to EVE for no other reason than you gave CCP more money. Your post doesn't make sense. Isn't a PLEX a magically spawned item in your hanger anyway? It's the same item that is traded on the market for isk. So arguing that PLEX for isk doesn't spawn a magic item but PLEX for remap does.... just.... Trying to decide whether or not this is a veteran trolling to try and protect his character farming, or really someone who doesn't read his own posts. The reason it sounds like trolling is because people who follow this mindset forget to factor in that the existence of PLEX, while not magically creating isk out of nothing, IS driving people to generate more isk through NPC farming and mining at a much higher rate than previously seen. PLEX HAS generated isk that didn't exist before, it's just not directly injected due to the addition of a new PLEX, it's generated slowly through the player base. But oh well. That factor quashes their arguments, so they refuse to see it. I do not refuse to see that, you are correct. Still it is an indirect polution. And if CCP did not offer plewes or GTC's, people would buy illegally, so there would always be this kind of injected ISK, perhaps to a lesser extent I'll give you that. http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.10.07 14:43:00 - [121] The trouble is that CCP aren't exactly trustworthy on this issue. It's less than 4 months since they were reassuring us that there were no plans for microtransactions at all. Now they're saying OK there will be microtransactions, but only vanity stuff. No in-game advantages. Except for the very first thing we're introducing, which er... confers an in game advantage. This does not exactly inspire confidence in their intentions. Given that they've already misled us on the issue, the "slippery slope" argument doesn't apply. They have a track record of going back on their promises. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
CyberGh0st Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.10.07 14:49:00 - [122] Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: Nullity Wow, this is possibly the first time I've ever disagreed with one of your posts. Oh well. There is a difference between what they're proposing, Akita T, and what we currently have. And honestly, I'd expect you of all people to see it. What We Have: Currently, when you exchange a PLEX for ISK, no ISK is actually added to the game. All of the ISK was earned through normal in-game methods. The PLEX for ISK system is not something I like, but it's not game-breaking since nothing is added to the game when you buy a PLEX. What Is Coming: PLEXes for remaps will add things to the game solely because of an out-of-game monetary transaction. These basically boil down to you giving CCP, and in return, receiving a magically spawned item in your hangar (A remap credit). One form of microtransaction is somewhat tolerable (yet is still something I dislike). The other will be the wet dream of "the entitlement-filled morons" of this world since it will add things to EVE for no other reason than you gave CCP more money. Your post doesn't make sense. Isn't a PLEX a magically spawned item in your hanger anyway? It's the same item that is traded on the market for isk. So arguing that PLEX for isk doesn't spawn a magic item but PLEX for remap does.... just.... Trying to decide whether or not this is a veteran trolling to try and protect his character farming, or really someone who doesn't read his own posts. You are just nitpicking on something that is not worded correctly, but you know exactly what he means. The only tangible use for a plex is to extend your gametime. Everyone pays their monthly sub, that is the way subscription games work. Remaps for plex introduce an extra cost for the collective playerbase, thus milking the cow. In addition to milking the cow, people who like to spend RL cash, now have options to circumvent gameplay mechanics by paying RL cash to CCP directly. It is a fundamental difference, the only thing you can argue is that remaps for plex is an insignificant change towards microtransactions. The only thing I can argue is that remaps for plex is a bridge too far for me. Furthermore, how I understand the interview, is that with incarna people will be able to buy all sorts of fluff with plexes. And I thought that this fluff was going to be player made. http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
Napro Caldari Simplistic Syndicate Cha0s Theory	Posted - 2010.10.07 15:11:00 - [123] Dont like it? Dont pay it.. Quit trying to ruin the fun for people that are willing to pay. When was eve declared a communist universe where everone is equal?
Dharh Gallente Ace Adventure Corp	Posted - 2010.10.07 15:47:00 - [124] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Tippia Or wellà I suppose I don't protest PLEX for remaps ù I protest the idiocy of anything for remaps. TBQFH, the mere fact remaps EXIST at all instead of having a character dead-set on starter attributes is what was mildly bothersome. But if you do have remaps anyway, I have nothing against relaxing the time limits in exchange (indirectly) for ISK. And if CCP makes money from that too (by making it PLEX-only), it doesn't bother me the least. TBQFH, this mindset disturbs me. I have one character I do not want to shelve, but would, if I could not remap. I like my character and his name. Like most people, when I created my character I took the advice of some guides and put all my points in int and memory. Two months later this ceased to be an advantage. Eventually all it amounted to was int/memory based skills were easier to get, while the rest were harder. All in all it made ZERO different in the long term. One year later my goals have changed. Now I can argue that over the long term it wont matter because the slow skills will add more or equal time than the fast skills gain in time, however, it'd be nice if I could get the new skills I want just a little faster than the skills other skills that aren't really part of my goals. I don't want an alt, or any of that extra account non-sense. Remaps let me do this. It seems to me that there really is no valid argument against remaps. We have skills that increase them, we have implants that increase them. EVE is in the technological age. Ones own body can be _destroyed_ and you can get a replacement. Remaps are trivial.
Adamantor	Posted - 2010.10.07 18:25:00 - [125] Edited by: Adamantor on 07/10/2010 18:28:20 I hate to see CCP make this move. The lure of cash is obviously affecting CCP's decision. I'd prefer they consider other ways to increase revenue if this is the requirement. I'm even open to them increasing the monthly fee rather than introducing micro's. Increasing monthly fee's is justifiable given the never ending increase in costs businesses face so I'm ok with that and EVE is worth every dollar. Bringing micro's into the game may not cause an issue initially, but sets up risk that further down the line, other items may be available that tip game balance. It also raises the very worrisome question of CCP considering a Free to Play model. It's been stated in other posts here that EVE is a unique game and I think CCP should honor that by realizing micro's don't belong in EVE and never should at any level. EVE should forge it's own path rather than following the trends of other MMO's. Lets keep EVE clear of game concepts like Farmville, Mafiawars (any other ZYNGA game), DDO and many many other games which are ruined by micro transactions.
Seth Ruin Minmatar Ominous Corp Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.07 18:51:00 - [126] I want the CCP from 2003 back.
oil Double-L	Posted - 2010.10.08 04:20:00 - [127] Edited by: oil on 08/10/2010 04:23:55 there is only one language the ccp managers understand. if they introduce MT then unsubescribe. things like sp for plex or cash or 20 % more damage output for 10 dollar per month or 30 % more invention success for 20 $. til now i had my 3 acounts subscribed with plex up to 14 months in advance. my subscriptions will run out in january and ill add gametime only monthwise so that i can leave the game anytime i want. they will try to milk us more for their failed investment in dust. only one waay to resist.
Ebisu Kami	Posted - 2010.10.08 12:46:00 - [128] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Yes but this shift happens for the people with bigger RL wallets . Thats the point. No, it's not. PLEX is purchaseable through ISK too, so in-game wallets matter just as much as RL wallets. The distinction is not just irrelevant, but actually reversed, since there is no way (that wouldn't result in a ban) to turn ISK into cash, so in a way, it actually gives a much greater advantage to ISK-rich people than RL-cash-rich people. From where I'm standing, this looks almost like a "fidelity award". Fundamentally wrong. Ingame-wallets may appear to matter as much as outgame-wallets, but you forget, that ingame wallets can not create PLEXes. Only outgame-wallets can. Also PLEXes do, as a matter of fact, convert back into RL-money, by the simple principle of time=money. You spend a PLEX, you save the subscription-cost and while your RL-money amount didn't increase you just got a service from a company without spending any of your RL-money. You just saved $15, which you wouldn't have anymore if there were no PLEXes. Originally by: Akita T Quote: As for second part of my post , you obviously have no clue what i meant. I certainly do have a clue about what you meant : "waah, waah, I now have the feeling that RL cash matters in a game where beforehand I didn't have that feeling, ohnoes, everything is ruined forever, waah". Except that nothing REALLY changed, it's only your perception of the facts that has been altered. Wrong again. Buying or selling a PLEX didn't create anything that didn't exist before already. Go ahead and sell a PLEX and all you can get for it is, what is available ingame already. No inflation, no game-mechanic advantage, no new item, no anything, except for you and a player exchanging game-time. Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Jodi Goulsti Would anyone be upset if I used the ISK I got from selling a PLEX to buy a set of +5 learning implants? My point exactly. I'm willing to bet that was also quite the scandal back when GTC sales were first permitted. Yet look at how the recent past looked, nothing really bad happened because of it. If anything, it was the main source of additional entertainment via "honour tank" killmails and such. Learning skills, attributes and attribute-enhancing implants should just be taken out of game, but that's another theme. Also the GTCs by themselves are no traditional micro-transaction, but simple the most cleverest step to prevent RMTs between players and third "companies" by tying RMT to players and CCP. That way CCP gained the extra money instead of a random chinese sweatshop. Also PLEXes by themselves do not have the same effect as micro-transactions can have, since see above. They do not spawn anything that wasn't ingame before already and created by a player and his game-time-investments.
Ebisu Kami	Posted - 2010.10.08 12:46:00 - [129] Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 08/10/2010 12:54:43 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Calmoto ccp listen up! i have very deep pockets you want all my amazing monies? ok.. I want you to make me an implant that gives the effect of 200% speed bonus, 200% shield boost bonus, %200 shield and armour, 99% resists across the board, -100% cost to ships on market, 200% bigger *** I will pay you money to give me this implant that does not destroy on death i await your money grabbing pathetic selfs to come a knocking soon See, THIS is a typical response of what people FEAR will come about as a consequence of what's happening now. Basically the whole "slippery slope" argument... which by the way is most of the time a logical fallacy. In this case, anyway, IT CERTAINLY IS. You can start complaining for good when something that would have been otherwise impossible to achieve (given a little bit of time or effort) would be available ONLY through cash payments, not ISK. Only THEN you are really into "bad style" microtransaction land. Before then, there is absolutely no problem, gemeplay hypercapitalism FTW. Hm, let's see, so we are allowed to complain about micro-transactions as soon, as you can do something with them ingame which you can not do with ISKs. Hm, I can get remaps for RL-money but I can not get remaps for ISKs. So we are allowed to complain now? Thank you, Akita T for stating that very fundamental point that was all so obvious to so many of us. And no, don't even start argueing about us beeing able to buy PLEXes via ISK, because ISKs do not spawn PLEXes, only RL-money does. The great slippery-slope arguement also does apply already, by the simple virtue of CCP Shadows famed words: Quote:** There are no plans for micro-transactions. There will be no micro-transactions. And a few months later it gets announced: Wehwehweh, we'll get micro-transactions! Rejoice people, because CCP lied to us! Either that, or there's yet another communication-breakdown within CCP. Both is bothersome and highly annoying but that's not the theme here, but the scheme behind beeing relevant. We are already slipping and next to no company that ever promised to sell only vanity-items by micro-transactions ever, kept their promise. They all lied. CCP lied and not the first time at that and I do not want to wait with my complains, until it is too late.
Ebisu Kami	Posted - 2010.10.08 14:15:00 - [130] Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 08/10/2010 14:19:04 Also something, that I just realized very recently: Even if it will only be vanity-items only, contrary to what I believe, then think about what it means to the markets in and around Incarna. What comes to your mind first, when reading vanity item? Clothings? Hats? Tattooes? Hair-Styles? You think that's ok? May I remind you about something that CCP stated would be a viable job in Incarna? Clothing-designers... Hair-Stylists... Shops that sell these... Does anyone else realize, that this is going to nerf the markets for Incarna drastically? You really think, they'll allow an ingame clothing-designer do design clothes that look exactly like the MT-store clothes? You also believe in Santa, don't you? And although I couldn't care less about hair-stylists and designer-clothings, I do care about other people having as much fun with this game as I had and MTs, be it for vanity-items only or not, is going to **** that game on a level that I and many others are not going to tolerate. I will bail out, if that is going to happen.
Kyra Vire	Posted - 2010.10.08 16:36:00 - [131] Originally by: Abdiel Kavash How will this work in regard to the 360 day timer? Can I use a regular remap in January, then get one for PLEX in, say, March and October, and then get another regular remap in February without a PLEX? Or will each application of PLEX reset the timer? This is a good question. I'd bet they would do something along the lines of give everyone a remap on launch (help quell the QQ), then auto add a remap every 365 days there after, going forward new characters would get a remap added every 365 days after char creation. basically remove the timer from starting at the last remap to just account age.
Slevnin	Posted - 2010.10.08 16:43:00 - [132] FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN A Cotten this remap for plex just made my weekend...to think I stopped logging into the forum because of all the whiners. GREAT IDEA!!! Those that don't like it can shut up, it doesn't change anything for you. Do you honestly have any clue how fast another person trains or what they are training any how, all skills cap out at 5 so stop all the and to those that want to quit over this why announce it go to the eve account management tab on the left and end subscription, and you know what I don't even want your stuff
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.08 17:15:00 - [133] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/10/2010 14:53:26 Originally by: King Pleasure [...]in spite of the large number of protest posts[...] ...and quite a few support posts... Let me rephrase it more vigorously : people protesting against PLEX-for-remap are at best dirt-ISK-poor wussies, at worst entitlement-filled morons. Originally by: BeanBagKing That makes me sad :( One of the reasons I love Eve is it's lack of micro-transactions. Cash -> GTC//PLEX -> ISK -> almost anything else (INCLUDING high-skills characters). We already have some twisted stealthed form of microtransactions. We've had them for years. This is not radically different at all. I see it for what it actually is, a quick money grab from CCP. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Yavanna Akallabeth	Posted - 2010.10.08 19:06:00 - [134] CCP is missing an opportunity for making real cash. Instead of using plex sell remaps for $25 and have them traded like plexes in-game. I'll buy a couple and put them on the market. Any micro transactions should diversified into race chits ($25) and be able to trade them in game. Amarr chits for Amarr stuff etc. The rarity of the chits over plexs will in fact act as a flywheel over its use over the isk only crowd. More money for CCP / better game for us. imho
CyberGh0st Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.10.08 19:12:00 - [135] Originally by: Ebisu Kami Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 08/10/2010 14:29:43 Also something, that I just realized very recently: Even if it will only be vanity-items only, contrary to what I believe, then think about what it means to the markets in and around Incarna. What comes to your mind first, when reading vanity item? Clothings? Hats? Tattooes? Hair-Styles? You think that's ok? May I remind you about something that CCP stated would be a viable job in Incarna? Clothing-designers... Hair-Stylists... Shops that sell these... Does anyone else realize, that this is going to nerf the markets for Incarna drastically? You really think, they'll allow an ingame clothing-designer do design clothes that look exactly like the MT-store clothes? You also believe in Santa, don't you? And although I couldn't care less about hair-stylists and designer-clothings, I do care about other people having as much fun with this game as I had and MTs, be it for vanity-items only or not, is going to **** that game on a level that I and many others are not going to tolerate. I will bail out, if that is going to happen. And now, dear CCP-financial-clerk, think about what is more important to that game and your business. A long-term customer with two, soon three accounts who constantly tries to get more people into the game and indeed does manage to do so by wearing his pride about beeing part of this game like a second skin and vigorously explaining what the Gallente-Federation emblem on it's shoulder-bag symbolizes when beeing asked or the random dumbass that is going to buy MT-only clothings once a month, treats EVE like Second Life 2.0 and forgets about the game the second his Twitter-feed shows news. Couldn't have said it better myself ! http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
Dharh Gallente Ace Adventure Corp	Posted - 2010.10.08 19:15:00 - [136] Originally by: Kyra Vire Originally by: Abdiel Kavash How will this work in regard to the 360 day timer? Can I use a regular remap in January, then get one for PLEX in, say, March and October, and then get another regular remap in February without a PLEX? Or will each application of PLEX reset the timer? This is a good question. I'd bet they would do something along the lines of give everyone a remap on launch (help quell the QQ), then auto add a remap every 365 days there after, going forward new characters would get a remap added every 365 days after char creation. basically remove the timer from starting at the last remap to just account age. I think the normal 356 day remap will be unaffected by this PLEX for remap thing. IE your timer will not reset when you remap this way, If you wanted to remap every 6 months for instance, you only need to buy one PLEX at the 6 month mark, because your normal remap will happen 6 months later.
Cobalt Sixty Caldari Invictus Australis BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.10.08 20:27:00 - [137] Originally by: Yavanna Akallabeth CCP is missing an opportunity for making real cash. Instead of using plex sell remaps for $25 and have them traded like plexes in-game. I'll buy a couple and put them on the market. Quoting to confirm you're evil and I'm slightly aroused by it.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.10.08 20:32:00 - [138] Originally by: Cobalt Sixty Originally by: Yavanna Akallabeth CCP is missing an opportunity for making real cash. Instead of using plex sell remaps for $25 and have them traded like plexes in-game. I'll buy a couple and put them on the market. Quoting to confirm you're evil and I'm slightly aroused by it. Quoting to confirm this is why Darwinism doesn't apply to the human race. My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Cire XIII Caldari Ever Flow Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2010.10.08 20:46:00 - [139] Can I trade my remapp for a Plex? Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. Our problems are server-side.

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