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Cost is Not a Factor in Balance

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Sigras	Posted - 2010.10.15 07:20:00 - [1] May I ask what the counter to Super Carriers is? Yes I understand that the ship costs a lot and takes a long time to train and is inconvenient to fly but I maintain that this is not a factor in balance IE, if I propose a ship that costs 3 trillion isk, takes 2 years to train for, and once in it, a pilot can never eject and cannot dock, but it destroys all ships on grid and not in fleet it would still be unbalanced. The problem is that a single Nyx can deal 3000 DPS to a group of cruisers battlecruisers and battleships; to put this in perspective, 200 zealots could attack a Nyx and it could kill 25 of them safely before warping out. Additionally the Remote ECM Burst just adds insult to injury. This module allows even a well prepared group of ships with devoters and logistics cant keep this thing tackled; all it needs to do is fire the Remote ECM burst and order its fighters to engage the HIC as it activates its bubble to maintain tackle, destroying it in under a minute as it cannot receive remote assistance. In light of the prior arguments I suggest one of two following changes: 1. Change the Super Carrier's bonus to "Can deploy 3 additional Fighter Bombers per level" removing 15 of the potential fighters fielded by the Super Carrier making it less able to destroy all ships of any size. 2. Change fighters to be in line with a battleship class weapon. This would also remove the Super Carrier's current ability to destroy all ships of any size. but would also nerf normal carriers . . . I'm as of yet undecided as to whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.10.15 08:53:00 - [2] That's nice. ~_~
TheMahdi	Posted - 2010.10.15 09:14:00 - [3] Originally by: Sigras May I ask what the counter to Super Carriers is? Supercarrier.
Mona X Caldari C0VEN	Posted - 2010.10.15 10:28:00 - [4] Originally by: TheMahdi Originally by: Sigras May I ask what the counter to Super Carriers is? Supercarrier. 5 supercarriers. Join Eve-Online, meet interesting people, grief them.
Gunner Cid The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2010.10.15 11:51:00 - [5] Originally by: Mona X Originally by: Sigras Additionally the Remote ECM Burst just adds insult to injury. This module allows even a well prepared group of ships with devoters and logistics cant keep this thing tackled; all it needs to do is fire the Remote ECM burst and order its fighters to engage the HIC as it activates its bubble to maintain tackle, destroying it in under a minute as it cannot receive remote assistance. I think, that logis could retarget him little faster than in 1 minute, but what do I know? I think what he was getting at is IF a Hic has it's bubble up - not the scripted point - that it can't be repped by a logistic. Even though the logistic can target the Hic, a Hic that has either the point or bubble up can't be repped. The duration on the hic bubble is 1 minute, thereby giving the mom a minute to focus and pop the hic. While SCs may be a bit out of whack I personally think that a few minor changes could help resolve the issue; -Allow normal carriers to field fighter bombers (10 at carrier 5) -Increase Dread Damage by 50% or so -Make siege match triage (5 min cycle) and also allow for siege and triage to be cancelled - IE a dread enters siege, it leaves siege after 2 minutes, it can't re-enter siege for another 3 minutes
ThrashPower Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.10.15 12:30:00 - [6] remove fighter bombers from lowsec or renable doomsday for lowsec, problem solved
Daneel Trevize Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2010.10.15 12:36:00 - [7] Originally by: Gunner Cid I think what he was getting at is IF a Hic has it's bubble up - not the scripted point - that it can't be repped by a logistic. Even though the logistic can target the Hic, a Hic that has either the point or bubble up can't be repped. Really?? It ain't a cap ship in siege/triage... bang goes my plans if true
Cire XIII Caldari Ever Flow Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2010.10.15 13:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Daneel Trevize Originally by: Gunner Cid I think what he was getting at is IF a Hic has it's bubble up - not the scripted point - that it can't be repped by a logistic. Even though the logistic can target the Hic, a Hic that has either the point or bubble up can't be repped. Really?? It ain't a cap ship in siege/triage... bang goes my plans if true Bang went your plans. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. Our problems are server-side.
Gunner Cid The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2010.10.15 13:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Daneel Trevize Really?? It ain't a cap ship in siege/triage... bang goes my plans if true Yea, I just re-read my post and it may have been unclear so I'll try to fully explain When a Hic has the WFG active it cannot benefit from remote effects (remote sensor boosts/reps etc), this normally isn't a problem if a Hic is using the focused point because the cycle time is short - like 6 secs or so, if it is not the scripted point and just the bubble the timeframe that it is active is much longer. So if you can create a situation where the Hic has to use the bubble (jam drones/ecm burst etc) it gives you a short window to pop the Hic.
Kara'ina	Posted - 2010.10.15 14:09:00 - [10] Just some thoughts. How much dps does a supercarrier do when it's drones/fighters/fighterbombers are killed by support ships? I'd also like to point at the cost of those and the "ease" with which you can restock them if you lose your set over and over again. Supercarriers are nice, but not very useful with an empty drone bay. Targeting and killing fighters and fighterbombers might not be that easy and fun in a laggy fleet fight environment but the moment someone decides to bring a supercarrier for dps to a less laggy fight I'm all for hitting the wallet even if I know I won't be able to kill it in 15 minutes. Fending off multiple hic's and dictors with a supercarrier isn't that easy either. Scripted infinite point can point up to 30 km while the ecm burst only has a range of 20. A dictor takes a while to target for the supercarrier and is perfectly able to land bubbles. They also outrace fighters and fighterbombers. You are tackling the issue from the wrong point of view. Consider them big fat targets now you only need to figure out how to kill them. 200 zealots without logistic support or tackle is not the way to go. I was considering ranting about people not daring to take risks and pointing out that a single supercarrier (20 bil. each?) can only viably kill up to 3-4 dreads (1.5-2 bil. each?) in a single siege cycle. Scale that up to multiple supercarriers, dread/carrier blobs and you might get an indication as to what I'm hinting at. But I leave that up to the smart kids to figure it out. Suffice to say I think most large alliances are a bunch of cowards unwilling to take a risk, slaughter more supercaps and actually spend the easy isk they make or made in null sec.
Daneel Trevize Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2010.10.15 14:39:00 - [11] Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 15/10/2010 14:40:11 Cid, you tactic made sense, I just failed to read the WFG description fully. The field generator projects a warp disruption sphere centered upon the ship for its entire duration. The field prevents any warping or jump drive activation within its area of effect. The generator has several effects upon the parent ship whilst active. It increases its signature radius and agility whilst penalizing the velocity bonus of any afterburner or microwarpdrive modules. It also prevents any friendly remote effects from being rendered to the parent ship. This module's effect can be modified with scripts. Note: can only be fitted on the Heavy Interdictors. Stupid EFT showing RR effect working...
Ghandis Vhero	Posted - 2010.10.15 14:50:00 - [12] More supercarriers is the counter to a supercarrier. Your 200 zealot example was a bit silly, whether or not it's true, not going to check, it's a completely unrealistic scenario.
Sigras	Posted - 2010.10.15 21:37:00 - [13] Originally by: Ghandis Vhero More supercarriers is the counter to a supercarrier. Your 200 zealot example was a bit silly, whether or not it's true, not going to check, it's a completely unrealistic scenario. Clearly I was not positing that 200 zealots is the counter to supercarriers, I was just demonstrating how powerful the ship is even when faced with overwhelming odds. Additionally the fact that supercaps are the only apparent counter to supercaps is the crux of my problem. This is why speed was nerfed, because the only counter was more speed. You could have a literally homogeneous force of supercarriers who would be basically unstoppable save for a larger force of supercaps ... I just don't think that's right, fleets in Eve should never be able to be homogeneous
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.10.15 22:16:00 - [14] Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 15/10/2010 22:18:45 Originally by: Sigras Originally by: Ghandis Vhero More supercarriers is the counter to a supercarrier. Your 200 zealot example was a bit silly, whether or not it's true, not going to check, it's a completely unrealistic scenario. Clearly I was not positing that 200 zealots is the counter to supercarriers, I was just demonstrating how powerful the ship is even when faced with overwhelming odds. Additionally the fact that supercaps are the only apparent counter to supercaps is the crux of my problem. This is why speed was nerfed, because the only counter was more speed. You could have a literally homogeneous force of supercarriers who would be basically unstoppable save for a larger force of supercaps ... I just don't think that's right, fleets in Eve should never be able to be homogeneous Lol. Someone hasn't watched fleet fights for the past 6 years much have they? edit: Why aren't your theoretical zealots shooting the FB and then demolishing the crippled supercaps?
Mona X Caldari C0VEN	Posted - 2010.10.16 00:20:00 - [15] Edited by: Mona X on 16/10/2010 00:22:24 Originally by: Gunner Cid I think what he was getting at is IF a Hic has it's bubble up - not the scripted point - that it can't be repped by a logistic. Even though the logistic can target the Hic, a Hic that has either the point or bubble up can't be repped. The duration on the hic bubble is 1 minute, thereby giving the mom a minute to focus and pop the hic. I know what he meant, but: 1. If you bring only one bubble ship for mommy, you don't deserve that killmail anyway. 2. Duration is 30 seconds, he have to be extremely unlucky, to be attacked at the start of the cycle and HICs are tough nuts so I wouldn't worry much about SC killing them of fast and zipping away. Join Eve-Online, meet interesting people, grief them.
Gunner Cid The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2010.10.16 01:32:00 - [16] Originally by: Mona X I know what he meant, but: 1. If you bring only one bubble ship for mommy, you don't deserve that killmail anyway. 2. Duration is 30 seconds, he have to be extremely unlucky, to be attacked at the start of the cycle and HICs are tough nuts so I wouldn't worry much about SC killing them of fast and zipping away. I totally agree with you.
Moose Burger	Posted - 2010.10.16 02:11:00 - [17] care to tell me why cost shoudnt be taken into account in balance? Are you saying 10 billion ships should all have 3000 EHP, move at 6000m/s, and do only 200 dps, all of them have damage type, 3 high slots, 3 mids and 3 lows, with one utility/missile slot, with 3 small rig slots? And Tengu would also have 3000 EHP, move at 6000m/s, and do only 200 dps, all of them have damage type, 3 high slots, 3 mids and 3 lows, with one utility/missile slot, with 3 small rig slots? And titans would cost billions would have 3000 EHP, move at 6000m/s, and do only 200 dps, all of them have damage type, 3 high slots, 3 mids and 3 lows, with one utility/missile slot, with 3 small rig slots? Dream on. Cost IS a balancing factor.
Sigras	Posted - 2010.10.16 03:38:00 - [18] Originally by: Moose Burger care to tell me why cost shoudnt be taken into account in balance? Are you saying 10 billion ships should all have 3000 EHP, move at 6000m/s, and do only 200 dps, all of them have damage type, 3 high slots, 3 mids and 3 lows, with one utility/missile slot, with 3 small rig slots? And Tengu would also have 3000 EHP, move at 6000m/s, and do only 200 dps, all of them have damage type, 3 high slots, 3 mids and 3 lows, with one utility/missile slot, with 3 small rig slots? And titans would cost billions would have 3000 EHP, move at 6000m/s, and do only 200 dps, all of them have damage type, 3 high slots, 3 mids and 3 lows, with one utility/missile slot, with 3 small rig slots? Dream on. Cost IS a balancing factor. The point I was making was that price cannot be used to balance out a ship that is completely overpowered. Lets try an illustration again as you obviously didnt read the one in the OP. Say you have a ship that deals 500,000 damage to all ships on grid that are not in fleet, has 100,000,000 EHP and has a 1 second align time. you may say this ship is overpowered, but in order to balance it, it costs 5 trillion isk and once youre in the ship you cannot eject making it ridiculously annoying to own. is the ship balanced? NO the fact that it costs a lot does not balance out the fact that it's totally overpowered, thats what I mean that cost is not a factor in balance. my problem is that a group of 10 supercarriers are un-jamable and can put out limitless light drones to deal with frigates, fighter bombers to deal with capitals/supercaps, and fighters to deal with literally everything else. Supercarriers are the only ships in the game which can deal effective amounts of damage to frigates, cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships, capital ships and supercaps.
NoNah	Posted - 2010.10.16 03:43:00 - [19] Your 200 zealots would kill a nyx in roughly 6 minutes. Say 7 as you'd most likely pop whatever pops out of him meanwhile, meaning you'd lose nothing meanwhile. As for the incoming damage on the zealots, his fighters would be dealing roughly 27 dps each on your random zealot. This means with 25 off them at max skills and a rather odd fit, he'd be looking at spending well over half an hour to kill 25 of them, which as per the above statement means he would've died. 5 times. I realise none of the figures you used is even near realistic examples, but figured it was only reasonable to illustrate the difference. Supercarriers already die quite often to fleets completely without supercarriers. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 256798
Sigras	Posted - 2010.10.16 04:58:00 - [20] Originally by: NoNah Your 200 zealots would kill a nyx in roughly 6 minutes. Say 7 as you'd most likely pop whatever pops out of him meanwhile, meaning you'd lose nothing meanwhile. Again, I did not say it was a reasonable scenario, I simply wanted to illustrate the damage and survivability of a supercarrier. Originally by: NoNah As for the incoming damage on the zealots, his fighters would be dealing roughly 27 dps each on your random zealot. This means with 25 off them at max skills and a rather odd fit, he'd be looking at spending well over half an hour to kill 25 of them, which as per the above statement means he would've died. 5 times. How on earth do you get 27 DPS?! Using a Firbolg as an example Damage Modifier 3.5 Fighters 5 100% Damage Bonus Gallente Carrier 5 25% Damage Bonus Net Damage Modifier 8.75 * 75 damage / 5.25 ROF = 125 DPS per fighter Originally by: NoNah Supercarriers already die quite often to fleets completely without supercarriers. I am not saying that supercarriers are un-killable because that is obviously untrue, but Im saying that supercarriers have no hard counters. You should not be able to use a homogeneous force and be effective against all manner of fleets and with supercarriers you can do just that.
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2010.10.16 05:59:00 - [21] Edited by: Lance Fighter on 16/10/2010 06:01:08 According to my fantastic calculations, it will take about the same amount of time for a nyx to kill 25 zealots as 200 zealots to kill a nyx. edit: At one point it was thrown around that carriers/mommies should have a 'drone bay', a 'fighter bay' and for mommies, a 'fighterbomber bay' - thus stops carriers from fielding thousands of non-fighter drones if they please. However, didnt seem to make it in.
Baneken Gallente School of the Unseen	Posted - 2010.10.16 07:02:00 - [22] Doesn't really matter how many drones a carrier/super carrier has in bay when you can field only 5x regular ones. The bonus applies only to fighters/fighter bombers and while 20x fighter bombers do have an impressive 10k dps (and fighters 2500) it's really not that op considering the cost of the fighters and what they can hit. Over all fighters have a dps of a gank fit BS even when you have a horde of 20 on your ass, fighter bombers might be different but then again they won't hit well on anything smaller then another capital. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
NoNah	Posted - 2010.10.16 07:13:00 - [23] Edited by: NoNah on 16/10/2010 07:14:12 I... managed to read your entire post(and thread in general without noticing the actual topic of fighters being the target of your complaints, not fighter bombers. I guess it just seemed way to farfetched. And no, there's probably no hard counter, but then again, what's the hard counter of random t1 frig, say... a dramiel? Originally by: Baneken Doesn't really matter how many drones a carrier/super carrier has in bay when you can field only 5x regular ones. Say what now? Parrots, commence! Postcount: 482475
Baneken Gallente School of the Unseen	Posted - 2010.10.16 07:25:00 - [24] Edited by: Baneken on 16/10/2010 07:27:20 If you look at the NYXs description it exclusively says extra fighters/fighter bombers per lvl, you can always fit 5x drone control units but last time I checked no sane person fits all 5. So unless you fly a regular carrier (ie. thanny) you can have only 5x regular drones without DCUs. edit. yes, not reading descriptions fully is my bad. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
IcanhasyouStuff	Posted - 2010.10.16 07:34:00 - [25] Originally by: Baneken Edited by: Baneken on 16/10/2010 07:27:20 If you look at the NYXs description it exclusively says extra fighters/fighter bombers per lvl, you can always fit 5x drone control units but last time I checked no sane person fits all 5. So unless you fly a regular carrier (ie. thanny) you can have only 5x regular drones without DCUs. edit. yes, not reading descriptions fully is my bad. SCs CAN deploy up to 20 of ANY DRONE (not counting DCUs). About the HIC thing: the cycle is 30s making it possible to cycle the bubble on and off to get reps but still keep tackle, not that you should only have 1 hic anyway...
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.10.16 07:36:00 - [26] 7/10 good one. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Enduros Desard's Nation Cha0s Theory	Posted - 2010.10.16 08:37:00 - [27] Originally by: Baneken Doesn't really matter how many drones a carrier/super carrier has in bay when you can field only 5x regular ones. I'm pretty sure this is either inaccurate or broken since my carrier can drop just as many regular drones as it can drop fighters. - This one time, at gate camp, I shot a shuttle...
1600 RT	Posted - 2010.10.16 10:59:00 - [28] 1- change fighter bombers so they do full damage to supercaps and structures, there should be a damage reduction already when they shoot to normal capital this would make their damage very bad on BS and smaller. 2- increase the siege bonuses so a dread can deal more dps and tank more while in siege (will still die to a group of supercarrier but with more damage they would actually have a chance to kill them) a dread should do more damage than a supercarrier imho
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.10.16 11:56:00 - [29] 1. Quintuple Dread EHP when sieged. 2. Multiply fuel cost for capitals when jumping by ((10xSystem Sec)+1). 3. Double Fighter Bomber signature. Dreads become counters to super-caps with more staying power. Low-sec is freed from a lot of the "boredom drops" perpetrated by juvenile delinquent 0.0 capital commanders. Fighter Bombers become a lot more vulnerable so sub-capital support and bombing-runs. There, fixed your Capitals Online game, no charge.
Sigras	Posted - 2010.10.16 19:34:00 - [30] Perhaps I wasn't clear, my problem with the supercarrier is that its effectivea against every ship in the game! It can kill any size of ship without changing fittings, no other ship in the game can do that Originally by: Hirana Yoshida 1. Quintuple Dread EHP when sieged. 2. Multiply fuel cost for capitals when jumping by ((10xSystem Sec)+1). 3. Double Fighter Bomber signature. Dreads become counters to super-caps with more staying power. Low-sec is freed from a lot of the "boredom drops" perpetrated by juvenile delinquent 0.0 capital commanders. Fighter Bombers become a lot more vulnerable so sub-capital support and bombing-runs. There, fixed your Capitals Online game, no charge. So requiring capital ships to counter supercapital ships will reduce the number of capital ships? .... mind explaining this logic to me?

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