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Scammed.... Well Done, but exploit?

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Marchocias Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2010.10.21 00:04:00 - [61] Originally by: Captain Pompous I don't 1) Waste time reading whine threads fully 2) Waste time reading posts from people whose corporation has a misplaced apostrophe so put that in your pipe and smoke it...because the pouch of shag has arrived, and it is bitter So 1 You remain wilfully ignorant of the discussion yet still grace us with the benefit of your opinion? 2 Obviously you just did. Them apples... How do you like em? ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).
Mickey Simon TEMPLAR.	Posted - 2010.10.21 00:24:00 - [62] Originally by: Lady Spank Which part of the transaction actually causes you isk loss? It certainly isn't the failed buy order. Anyone wishing for this to be deemed an exploit is not realising that in order to do so it will need to be linked to the contract or similar sale order that gets the victim 'speculator' to buy the junk item in the first place. Granted its ****ty but honestly, the key thing here is to know the value of market items. In every case presented in this thread, you are only selling to this overpriced buy order because you bought an item in the hope of profiting while not actually knowing the true value of the module in question. This is arguably the victims fault for falling for something that should be obvious. Pretty much~ The thing that annoyed me was that I saw it was obviously a scam, and like most more complicated then "buy my stuff worth 50M ISK for 500M ISK" I figured it would be possible to counter scam, but it's not possible :( Not saying it's unfair or an exploit or anything as sensationalist as that, just that it was p annoying and I can see where lots of people are coming from when they think it's an exploit.
Companion Qube	Posted - 2010.10.21 01:14:00 - [63] This is the best variation on the classic "buyout and relist" scam I've seen in a long time, hi5 to the guy running it. Seriously folks if it seems to good to be true then it ****ing is.
Captain Pompous Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It	Posted - 2010.10.21 05:58:00 - [64] Originally by: Marchocias Originally by: Captain Pompous I don't 1) Waste time reading whine threads fully 2) Waste time reading posts from people whose corporation has a misplaced apostrophe so put that in your pipe and smoke it...because the pouch of shag has arrived, and it is bitter So 1 You remain wilfully ignorant of the discussion yet still grace us with the benefit of your opinion? 2 Obviously you just did. Them apples... How do you like em? 1. I read the OP, all that was necessary tbh 2. Didn't read your post, just saw your abomination of a corp name and replied. Those apples are tart and worm-ridden, but you are so kind to have offered me your only food --- ☻♥ Problem? Therapy sessions ♥☻
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.10.21 10:46:00 - [65] Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: Marchocias If it relies on margin trading default, then it's totally lame as the victim CANNOT use any amount of skill to check in advance. Just because you fail to see how to avoid this technique doesn't mean it is impossible. cuz buying useless junk for 100s of millions on contracts is great business savvy!
Marchocias Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2010.10.21 17:48:00 - [66] Originally by: Captain Pompous 1. I read the OP, all that was necessary tbh 2. Didn't read your post, just saw your abomination of a corp name and replied. 1. You obviously didn't read the necessary amount to have any relevant take on the discussion. 2. By replying you invalidate your original assertion. Regardless, you're clearly the kind of childish berk who needs win arguments on the net to feel good about yourself. Just so you can get that dopamine hit, here you go: "Congratulations, you are the winner of this thread. All your opinions are well concieved, exceptionally articulated, and don't in any way make you look like a total idiot." ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).
Captain Pompous Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It	Posted - 2010.10.21 18:14:00 - [67] Originally by: Marchocias Originally by: Captain Pompous 1. I read the OP, all that was necessary tbh 2. Didn't read your post, just saw your abomination of a corp name and replied. 1. You obviously didn't read the necessary amount to have any relevant take on the discussion. 2. By replying you invalidate your original assertion. Regardless, you're clearly the kind of childish berk who needs win arguments on the net to feel good about yourself. Just so you can get that dopamine hit, here you go: "Congratulations, you are the winner of this thread. All your opinions are well concieved, exceptionally articulated, and don't in any way make you look like a total idiot." Look matey, I might be a bit of a blowhard but, in my experience, people like sanctimonious, pedantic, nitpicking ninnies even less than blowhards --- ☻♥ Problem? Therapy sessions ♥☻
Child Pork	Posted - 2010.10.21 18:26:00 - [68] Pomparse, gloating when you win isn't cool.
Sentient Blade	Posted - 2010.10.23 15:44:00 - [69] As one of the latest victims I'm going to throw my 2 penneth in here and call this one firmly in the grounds of CCP needing to get involved. I should point out though that I do not want the elimination of the margin trading system. However, I cannot see any way in which a deliberate attempt by one or more individuals to conspire to enter false information into the marketplace could be considered anything other than a exploit of the game mechanics. I understand people's thoughts regarding it being a contract scam rather than market scam, however I must disagree on this point based on the principle that the market and contracts comprise a system with shared resources and it is entirely reasonable to expect the two to be interchangeable. Therefore, I forsee a need for the market listings to be displayed in such a way that indicates orders which could not be filled based on the current wallet of the seller in question. For example; A seller places two orders with Margin Trading V - Order 1 would total 500m ISK and order 2 would total 250m ISK. In the event of the trader only having 250m ISK in their wallet order 1 should be highlighted in such a way as to indicate the number that can be actually filled, order 2 should be displayed as normal. I feel this is the best way to stop what I suspect will otherwise become a massive corruption of the market, which must be protected in such a way that it contains only real and accurate data to ensure the correct operation of the EvE economy. Just my input on the matter.
Dasani Waters Involuntary Trepanation	Posted - 2010.10.23 17:08:00 - [70] Goddamnit. I just fell for this one as well. And I agree, this is a corruption of the market system that can cause serious trouble if enough people start doing it(imagine having to setup a sell order as well as a phantom buy order as standard practice). The question for now is how long before this gets fixed and whether the exploiters will be penalized in some way for doing this, because I don't see any other way to get rid of this load of useless crap.
Maneck StreetPreacher Gallente haudquaquam munificus	Posted - 2010.10.23 17:48:00 - [71] Edited by: Maneck StreetPreacher on 23/10/2010 17:50:17 Whether this is an exploit or not is pure opinion. The only opinion that matters is that of CCP; their comment would really help clear this up. Personally? Looks like an exploit to me. I don't think fake buy orders were intended. If this was a matter of setting up contracts and then deleting buy orders when the contract completes but before the sale occurs, I'd say fair so long as a bot isn't doing it. Whereas getting the game to delete the order automatically seems like the abuse of a mechanic intended to prevent exploits (no negative account balance for margin trading to prevent generating isk from nothing with alts.)
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.10.23 18:01:00 - [72] Just stop buying overpriced crap and you can't get scammed. I like how people are deeming this an exploit with no authority on the issue, and only doing so because they got ripped off It's been happening at least since the old old escrow system so good luck seeing any changes in the near future. ~_~
Niloticus Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.10.24 02:27:00 - [73] I had no idea this much useless conversation would occur when I posted this thread. Oops. My petition was responded to, CCP discussed the case in great length, CCP decided that this use of margin trading does not represent a bug or exploit. Please let the thread rest in peace guys....
TehDrkWun	Posted - 2010.10.24 03:06:00 - [74] These Buy Orders CAN be filled, when filling them just ask for 1/2 or 1/4 of what they are buying for... I expect all of you to be shutting down scammers everywhere.
PVPCannonFodder	Posted - 2010.10.24 12:07:00 - [75] Edited by: PVPCannonFodder on 24/10/2010 12:11:16 I find it difficult to believe CCP introduced a skill that amounts to allowing players to create fake buy orders and actually endorses it. Is this truly what this game has come to? It's not a bug or exploit because players outwitted the system or was this the intention of the developers all along? There are a lot of scams in this game, and a lot of these can be attributed to people not paying attention (charon versus carbon is a great example) or being stupid (let's go haul this stuff into low or null sec to make fat isk on this courier run!) or something along those lines...but this "skill" allows people to create FAKE buy orders they have no intention of having filled. This makes an already risky concept such as dealing with contracts even more dangerous...and very much unnecessarily. If this skill allows players to place buy orders for an item at a fraction of the amount they want to spend, and a player tries to fill that order, then it SHOULD be filled...and that player is simply THAT far in debt to the game...plain and simple. That's what's SUPPOSED to happen, isn't it? And what would happen then if players did that and simply milked money out of expendable characters? That would also create a problem. The bottom line is this: Anytime players find ways to manipulate the system in ways not originally intended (and please...find me the developer or developers who seriously WANTED to create a way for players to put up fake buy orders so I can do things that result in criminal charges...PLEASE) CCP merely sticks their heads in the sand and says, "It's not a bug or exploit". That is such a cop out. If creating fake buy orders is not an exploit then I want to see or hear from a REAL CCP developer what they consider as qualifying conditions.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.10.24 12:21:00 - [76] Edited by: Lady Spank on 24/10/2010 12:23:25 Originally by: PVPCannonFodder I find it difficult to believe CCP introduced a skill that amounts to allowing players to create fake buy orders and actually endorses it. By your logic, energy pulse weapons is a skill designed to allow unfair griefing too since it basically allows killing without even locking in high sec right? Originally by: PVPCannonFodder This makes an already risky concept such as dealing with contracts even more dangerous...and very much unnecessarily How exactly does the margin trading skill make buying off contracts more risky? If you are going to go buying stuff without knowing its true value its entirely your own dumb fault. If your answer is so you can fill these buy orders then its your ignorance and greed that got you caught and it serves you right. Originally by: PVPCannonFodder If this skill allows players to place buy orders for an item at a fraction of the amount they want to spend, and a player tries to fill that order, then it SHOULD be filled...and that player is simply THAT far in debt to the game...plain and simple. That's what's SUPPOSED to happen, isn't it? No. It's quite obvious how clueless you are. ~_~
Sentient Blade	Posted - 2010.10.24 12:59:00 - [77] Originally by: Lady Spank How exactly does the margin trading skill make buying off contracts more risky? If you are going to go buying stuff without knowing its true value its entirely your own dumb fault. To quote one of the core rules of real life business where I happen to do rather well... "Something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it" In other words if there is a demand for an item or product at a given price, then that is what the product is worth. That demand may be what a person would be willing to pay when presented with the product, or it may be an offer to buy that product at a given price. Translating that over to EvE; if the market window clearly indicates that person X wishes to buy item Y for price Z then the items in question are worth Z. The technique we are discussing here is an attack on the market system, which CCP is 100% reliant upon for the correct operation of the EvE universe. More specifically, it is an attack on the user having no way to differentiate between an order which will can be filled and one that cannot be. To quote the market guide on the official wiki: "It is not possible to set a single buy order whose value exceeds what you can currently afford" therefore it would seem quite certain that the intention was to explicitly prevent such unfillable requests - Emptying the wallet afterwards is clearly a way of getting around this protection and as such should be prohibited.
Captain Pompous Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It	Posted - 2010.10.24 13:06:00 - [78] Originally by: Child Pork Pomparse, gloating when you win isn't cool. kiss my grits, porked child --- ☻♥ Problem? Therapy sessions ♥☻
NoNards McLards	Posted - 2010.10.24 17:26:00 - [79] Edited by: NoNards McLards on 24/10/2010 17:29:40 Edited by: NoNards McLards on 24/10/2010 17:29:08 Here's why this is an exploit. Let's say I happen to find 10 of useless_item_x in my hangar a few jumps off Jita and see that ScamMaster scum has an obvious margiin trading buy order with a 10-item minimum up for 200mil a pop. I'm looking to provide a little justice for all the noobs who got scammed, maybe make a few isk on the side, and stand to make almost 2bil from this transaction. I myself didn't get fooled by the scam, all the items are still for sale, the scammer's contract is intact, I go to try to fill the buy order, and POOF! The order is gone with the same error the OP described. And here's the thing: it was obvious that the scammer did not click cancel on the buy order because no one had bought his crap yet, and he continued to spam for his contract of useless_item_x after I attempted to fill the buy order. Only once he realized his buy order was no longer there did he put it back up, this time with an obviously higher minimum (like 2-3 more) so I couldn't make his buy order poof. This is not margin trading. This is not merely a scam. This is intentionally exploiting an incorrectly functioning game mechanic to force the market interface display false buy orders which are LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to fill. When I look at the market interface and see X item for sale, I expect that when I click buy, I will receive the item for the stated amount of ISK. When I click sell on a buy order, I expect that the items will disappear from my inventory and I will receive the stated amount of ISK, less taxes. When a player can get the market interface to display orders which are literally impossible to fill, this is not merely a scam, but an exploit. There is no way to check to see if a buy order is legitimate until you actually go and attempt to sell and get an error. With contracts, I can see whether the person put up a false item exchange/auction or a false buy contract. I can read that it's a Buy Contract for a Caldari Navy Raven for 400 Thousand instead and not for 400 Million. There is no analogous ability to verify with false buy orders, and there is zero risk that the scammer will lose his millions if someone happens to have the items he's trying to margin sell laying around in a hangar a few jumps off. Risk vs. Reward analysis: 0 risk, billions in reward. Yeah, that's totally intended.
Patri Andari Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2010.10.24 17:38:00 - [80] Originally by: Niloticus I had no idea this much useless conversation would occur when I posted this thread. Oops. My petition was responded to, CCP discussed the case in great length, CCP decided that this use of margin trading does not represent a bug or exploit. Please let the thread rest in peace guys.... Music to my ears. Guys, this has been around for very long time. I am surprised it has taken so long for more people to realize the true power of Margin Trading- the DARK side. However, using it in conjunction with contracts is far too limiting. Been there; done that. Where it really begins to shine is in inter regional trade. Evemetrics, Eve central, and similar sites that aid traders in inter regional arbitrage are useful tools in this type of "trade." Much more profitable to sell over priced items by the industrial or freighter load then waiting for a contract to be taken. Simply upload your orders to the sites and watch the magic happen. You catch more greedy traders that way. The free advertisement of your "too good to be true" orders is wicked. That being said, it is no more an exploit then setting up a courier contract to a station in 0.0 when the courier has no way to complete the contract. In fact it is far more legitimate. Just do your research and make sure you do not buy items for much more than their current market average. Caveat emptor! Patri I'll Roshambo You For That Titan!
Peekahbooh	Posted - 2010.10.24 19:39:00 - [81] When you accept a courier contract to go into nullsec not only are you acknowledging that you can make it there safely but that you have access to that station. With something like that a person could easily make a newbie alt, go to the station in question and try to dock. If you can't do it then BOOM! you now know that if you take the contract to go there it's a waste of your time. With a buy order it's a simple black and white issue: if the buy order is there you should be able to fill it...period. If the buy order cannot be filled, because of this misuse of this "skill", then that buy order should either NOT be there or it should be labeled somehow as a margin trade order. End of story.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.10.24 19:59:00 - [82] Stop crying. It's not going to be changed. ~_~
Rasz Lin Caldari Racketeers	Posted - 2010.10.25 00:36:00 - [83] as someone in Jita local suggested - next time you happen to have useless item X in sufficient number to fulfill fake buy order try to sell it at 24% of said buy order (margin trading level 5). As fake buy orders are 2-3 orders of magnitude higher than normal price you should still make nice profit.
Das Governator The Republican Party	Posted - 2010.10.25 00:49:00 - [84] Well, one technique to counter this: Buyer has put 24% of isk value up as collateral. If you donate the remaining 76% to the buyer order can go through. Accepting the fake contract is the same as donating isk. Also, if the buyer has an Ravens for sale at 350mil (they often seem to for some reason) that also counts as a donation towards successful buy order. All things broken down, you stand to make a (1 / (1 - .24) = 1.316) 31% return on your investment. Occasional bonus ravens. Perhaps free invuln fields too.
Fat Buddah	Posted - 2010.10.25 01:24:00 - [85] I think it's been said before but..: You are not losing any single isk or an item when the buy order gets cancelled. No transaction happens at all Really...if you see an order with minimum quantity of more than 2 for a stupid item: Think! You only lose money because you buy a stupid amount of a stupid item at a stupid price. Nevertheless, it is still possible to fill that buy order. SEND THE GUY SOME MONEY. Do simple price * qty to get the value of the minimum quantity. Do some more calculation over the total order value to get the amount of escrow the buyer had to put in (assuming MT level 5. Lesser level means more money put in, less money you have to send.) If (minimum qty value) - (escrow) >= 0, then the order cannot be filled. Now if you send the guy some iskies to make (minimum qty value) - (escrow + money you sent) < 0 (less than, not equal to, 0 coz the guy has to pay tax) the order can be filled. If (minimum qty value, i.e.: money you will get when filling the order) - (money you have to send) > 0 it's a nice little profit for you, and you get rid of useless junk. **Note that this does not work if the order was setup with a corp wallet division other than the master wallet.
Rasz Lin Caldari Racketeers	Posted - 2010.10.25 01:27:00 - [86] Edited by: Rasz Lin on 25/10/2010 01:28:33 lolscammers suggesting to send isk to scammers now, comedy gold you dont need to sent isk to anyone, just click sell, click advanced, change price to 24%, change time to "immediate" and click ok
Fat Buddah	Posted - 2010.10.25 01:37:00 - [87] Originally by: Rasz Lin Edited by: Rasz Lin on 25/10/2010 01:28:33 lolscammers suggesting to send isk to scammers now, comedy gold you dont need to sent isk to anyone, just click sell, click advanced, change price to 24%, change time to "immediate" and click ok Damn it. I was waiting for my wallet to flash
Ione Hunt Storm Solutions	Posted - 2010.10.25 02:04:00 - [88] If you fall for it, you deserve it imo. I mean, you're falling for a scam that promises a 200mil+ reward...comon' guys, that sounds too good. Especially if 5 people spam the same scam in Jita local over and over again. Your own greed makes you fall for this. Nice scam, move on ;) _______________
Suisidol Trenchcoat	Posted - 2010.10.25 05:55:00 - [89] Edited by: Suisidol Trenchcoat on 25/10/2010 06:00:05 Edited by: Suisidol Trenchcoat on 25/10/2010 05:56:28 Originally by: Ione Hunt If you fall for it, you deserve it imo. I mean, you're falling for a scam that promises a 200mil+ reward...comon' guys, that sounds too good. Especially if 5 people spam the same scam in Jita local over and over again. Your own greed makes you fall for this. Nice scam, move on ;) People are making buy orders that are false...and other people deserve that? You're a bastard, you know that? And Lady Spank...you're filled with so much sympathy and positive support that I'll be sure to direct all of any potential questions your way. As for this whole thing are you seriously stating this was an intentional thing from the start? That CCP seriously meant to allow players to create good faith buy orders, empty out their wallets, and not actually fulfill them? That's ludicrous. I just think CCP doesn't want to take responsibility and admit it was a stupid idea.
Static Scream	Posted - 2010.10.25 08:41:00 - [90] Sounds like a great idea, shame I never got into trading. Thanks for all the info guys

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