Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Vex Morga
Minmatar Original Sin. Chain of Chaos
|
Posted - 2010.10.19 14:03:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Marchocias
Any margin trade orders that default should instead take the full sum of cash from the player, putting them in the red, and automatically cancelling all other outstanding buy orders.
think this through... I train margin trading on an alt, alt is set to buy item for $bignumber i sell to alt, get $bignumber of isk from nothing and recycle alt.
|
Marchocias
Silent Ninja's
|
Posted - 2010.10.19 15:25:00 -
[32]
I did think this through... As I said it could be exploited, probably too much tho. So then the solution is to colour code all margin buy orders.
Oh and spank, can you provide a bulletproof method for knowing, with 100% certainty, that a buy order is genuine or not? Yes, obviously it's possible to make an educated guess, but even with other info you can never be sure.
To be honest I have never seen that error message on over 4 years of trading, so it's not exactly very common, and given the undocumented nature of everything in eve, combined with ambiguous description on the margin trading skill, it looks very much like an exploit.
I'm all in favour of scams that rely on a victims stupidity, but this one relies on an essentially undocumented game mechanic that hardly anyone uses. It's not exactly balanced.
---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it). |
Doddy
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2010.10.19 16:09:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Doddy on 19/10/2010 16:10:43
Originally by: Marchocias
To be honest I have never seen that error message on over 4 years of trading, so it's not exactly very common, and given the undocumented nature of everything in eve, combined with ambiguous description on the margin trading skill, it looks very much like an exploit.
You clearly haven't done much trading on the edge of bankruptcy :). Also if you are in Jita and try to buy a specific sell order it will often be gone when you try to buy it, and so get that message. Finally how does the op know the seller didn't just cansel the order?
|
Constratum
|
Posted - 2010.10.19 16:18:00 -
[34]
bacon
|
Marchocias
Silent Ninja's
|
Posted - 2010.10.19 17:23:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Constratum bacon
Would you care to elaborate?
---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it). |
Lady Spank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
|
Posted - 2010.10.19 17:48:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Marchocias I did think this through... As I said it could be exploited, probably too much tho. So then the solution is to colour code all margin buy orders.
Oh and spank, can you provide a bulletproof method for knowing, with 100% certainty, that a buy order is genuine or not? Yes, obviously it's possible to make an educated guess, but even with other info you can never be sure.
To be honest I have never seen that error message on over 4 years of trading, so it's not exactly very common, and given the undocumented nature of everything in eve, combined with ambiguous description on the margin trading skill, it looks very much like an exploit.
I'm all in favour of scams that rely on a victims stupidity, but this one relies on an essentially undocumented game mechanic that hardly anyone uses. It's not exactly balanced.
Colour coding buy orders would just lead to people avoiding any and all 'potential scams' based on colour and would effectively kill margin trading by making a pariah of legit traders through the public's fear and ignorance.
I know I'm fairly cutting in most of my shiptoasting but on this issue I alluded to the general points you need to consider in a previous post. Unfortunately providing a 100% clear method of avoiding these trades is counter to my financial interests.
This IS documented, and rest assured it's going to be more common now this thread exists, amusingly many people will be doing it wrong and losing money. No doubt CCP will look into the practice. I do however honestly believe it's fair game if only for the simple reasoning that you really should know the market value of an item before purchasing and should be aware that any purchase based on a speculative interest comes with a risk of being stuck with an unwanted item.
~_~
|
Spruillo
Gallente Spruillo Corp
|
Posted - 2010.10.19 18:14:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Marchocias ambiguous description on the margin trading skill, it looks very much like an exploit....an essentially undocumented game mechanic that hardly anyone uses....
Whaaa?
Try region trading with 100's buys for 10's-100's bils with very low turnovers without margin trading. Or run dozens of trade center t2 buys worth bils where maybe 1/10th of a few of them get filled everyday and last for months. Oh, you haven't, because you and nearly ever1 in this thread is posting about something they know next to nothing about. Without margin trading a handful of tycoons could drive everyone without a fortune to tie up out of the market.
INB4 15 more terrible wall-o-texts then move to MD where this belongs.
|
Marchocias
Silent Ninja's
|
Posted - 2010.10.19 18:14:00 -
[38]
To be fair, I suppose that any victim who does fall for this must necessarily believe themselves to be scamming the character who placed the buy order. So in one way they do bring it on themselves, it just seems a bit one sided.
Personally I would err on the side of caution and call it an exploit, but I recognise that the issue isn't clear cut.
Were a fix deemed to be required by CCP, instead of colour coding, I would suggest hiding any margin-trade buy orders if the related account does not have the isk to cover them, until such time as it does. That way, margin trading can still occur in the way it was intended - you can still place multiple orders using the same cash, but once the available cash drops below an appropriate level (either because you're scamming, or some of your other orders have since been filled) those orders disappear.
Either way it doesn't directly concern me too much (I guess I'm not greedy enough to fall for this) but I find it to be an interesting scam, certainly worth some discussion!
---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it). |
Marchocias
Silent Ninja's
|
Posted - 2010.10.19 18:24:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Spruillo
Originally by: Marchocias ambiguous description on the margin trading skill, it looks very much like an exploit....an essentially undocumented game mechanic that hardly anyone uses....
Whaaa?
Try region trading with 100's buys for 10's-100's bils with very low turnovers without margin trading. Or run dozens of trade center t2 buys worth bils where maybe 1/10th of a few of them get filled everyday and last for months. Oh, you haven't, because you and nearly ever1 in this thread is posting about something they know next to nothing about. Without margin trading a handful of tycoons could drive everyone without a fortune to tie up out of the market.
INB4 15 more terrible wall-o-texts then move to MD where this belongs.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. No-one has suggested nerfing margin trading (except yourself, albeit fatuously). No-one has posted any 'wall-o-text'.
Everyone was having quite a nice discussion about an interesting facet of the game, one of the few areas that hasn't been covered to death.
So why would you think it appropriate to make it personal?
---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it). |
Lady Spank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
|
Posted - 2010.10.19 18:28:00 -
[40]
Spruillo is a clueless troll, just ignore him. ~_~
|
|
TraderAlt117
|
Posted - 2010.10.19 21:17:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Vex Morga
Originally by: Marchocias
Any margin trade orders that default should instead take the full sum of cash from the player, putting them in the red, and automatically cancelling all other outstanding buy orders.
think this through... I train margin trading on an alt, alt is set to buy item for $bignumber i sell to alt, get $bignumber of isk from nothing and recycle alt.
Allowing the isk to go into the negative due to the skill would allow tycoons using the skill for low turnover items to continue to do so, making sure they keep a careful eye on the amount of isk going in and out to maintain a positive balance. Subsequently making characters with a negative balance un-trashable to avoid the recycling of alts, admittedly this would open a scenario where people plex an account for a month, train the margin trading skill and drop the account after leaving the character in serious debt. There would need to be extremely careful balancing through the use of this, so it's probably too much hassle to implement. Either that or people found to be repeatably using this would get an ip ban the likes of which isk farmers get. Either way it increases the work load of ccp, and thus isn't really gonna happen.
The best suggestion so far in my opinion is the hiding of orders where character does not have the isk to cover the minimum volume times the isk value. This effectively fixes the current situation of the market displaying orders that are technically not there, allows the character to keep his buy orders up for when his isk increase again and presents a lot less opportunities for the exploitation of unintended game mechanics. To help the margin traders, whenever an order becomes 'hidden' as it were, it becomes highlighted on their wallets (and their wallets alone) to allow them to easily see what orders can be fulfilled and which ones can't. Feel free to poke holes, i can't think of any right now :s
To the scammer - if you had caught me out due to being a faster clicker or me not noticing a minimum requirement for the volume on the buuy order, i would be fair game and happy to drop it, as it stands i think the method is faulty game mechanics, and would like to see eve improved if ccp deem it a bug as well.
|
High Ground
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 02:36:00 -
[42]
Look at it this way: Margin trading itself only applies to buy orders. Orders that cannot be filled get automatically canceled, and the seller does not hand over his goods for free. There is no transaction and nobody loses anything. How is this an exploit?
Buying an item at a stupid price is a different mechanic, and is completely under player control. If you don't like the price, you don't buy. Oops, typed in one more digit? Your mistake. Can't be bothered to check if the price is reasonable? Your decision. So, well, you cannot sell that item at instant profit? How is this an exploit?
What I want to say? See, a margin trading order and buying things from sell/WTS contract are two separate legitimate game mechanics, being used as intended.. Many people generate lots of iskies by combining the two separate elements with his/her own skills and experience. Some don't.
|
Mire Stoude
The Undesirables
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 05:21:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Mire Stoude on 20/10/2010 05:23:18 The fact there is no way to tell if the buyer has enough cash to cover the order or not may be the point where it could be deemed an exploit. To anybody who hasn't encountered this (or read the forums) the only clue they have that it could be a scam is the "too good to be true" factor.
It seems like an abuse of game mechanics, whether its an exploit or not is up to CCP I guess.
|
Mickey Simon
TEMPLAR.
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 05:27:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Lady Spank ~stuff~
PRETTY UPSET THAT YOU DIDN'T TELL ME ABOUT THIS BEFORE HAND.
|
Grohalmatar
Sicariii
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 06:07:00 -
[45]
How the hell did i stumble into a nerf margin trading thread in C&P? |
High Ground
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 07:53:00 -
[46]
I placed a sell order for a tritanium at 1 trillion isk, but it's not selling Bah~ I didn't know people didn't have that kinda money. CCP fix this!!
|
AstarothPrime
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 09:36:00 -
[47]
Edited by: AstarothPrime on 20/10/2010 09:38:58
Originally by: Niloticus I just sent a mail to every victim and requested they all petition. Pretty sure this is not using the game's mechanics as intended.
Sorry to burst your bubble - but that IS correct game mechanics.
a) You have the skill for margin trading, if you are not aware of it - you should be - it allows a person to set up buy orders without putting all money needed to cover them b) when order gets filled -> it credits remainder of funds from your wallet
This scam is really nice and doesnt require scammer to even be online
Goes something like this (example with numbers):
1) Make and alt level V in margin trading, you need to cover 24% of the order. You have to train so that partial order hit doesnt hurt your ability to scam. 2) Order 5 items at price say -> 100M ISK / ea... you need to cover 24% (at lev V) = 120M ISK, LEAVE NO ISK IN ALTS WALLET SO HE CANT COVER THE TRADE OUTTA IT!! 3) Put in 4 pcs of the same item into contract for say 65M ISK / each, totalling 260M ISK 4) Someone sees the great opportunity which is too good to be true 5) Someone buys your 260M ISK contract and tries to fill your alts order, no money in it wallet - dang 6) The best you can do is to sell one item which is then covered from initial 120M ISK deposit (or not even that - not sure). 7) Now you have 3 more items which you paid a total of 195M ISK, therefore if you cant sell those for 65M ISK / each - your loss
Regards
I.
|
AstarothPrime
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 09:44:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Doddy
You clearly haven't done much trading on the edge of bankruptcy :). Also if you are in Jita and try to buy a specific sell order it will often be gone when you try to buy it, and so get that message. Finally how does the op know the seller didn't just cansel the order?
He was offline...
I explained the scam in detail -> bottom line - dont buy "obscure" items with 0 or none liquidity due to one questionable order you find in the same station... noone will hand you 100s of mil ISK just because you looked into contracts.
I.
|
Princess Bride
Caldari Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 14:10:00 -
[49]
From the description of margin trading on the in-game skill book:
Quote: Ability to make potentially risky investments work in your favor. Each level of skill reduces the percentage of ISK placed in market escrow when entering buy orders. Starting with an escrow percentage of 100% at Level 0 (untrained skill), each skill level cumulatively reduces the percentage by 25%. For a maximum reduction of approximately 24% total escrow at level 5.
I do not understand why several posters have said that you need an alt with Margin Trading V to make the scam in this thread work. Although the description is poorly written, raising the skill seems to simply reduce the percentage of the purchase price of the buy order that will go into escrow when the order is placed.
The amount in escrow is irrelevant, if I understand this correctly. Even if you had to put 75% of total buy amount into escrow, it still works, because the next step is to empty your wallet so that the buy order cannot be completed. This is the key. As the order will never be filled, and will eventually be canceled with all ISK returned (minus fees), shaving points off the escrow put into the order seems unnecessary.
Therefore, Margin Trading I should be fine. Higher skill level would be nice if you are short on ISK to set it up, but assuming you've got plenty of cash to place the buy order, and Margin Trading I, it should work. Am I wrong?
That reduces the time needed to skill an alt for this significantly: Trade IV > Accounting IV > Margin Trading I which should take around 4 days and 22.5m.
"The OTHER PLEX is on the OTHER side of the contract. Right click to flip it over." |
Bernard Schuyler
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 14:36:00 -
[50]
Originally by: AstarothPrime Edited by: AstarothPrime on 20/10/2010 09:38:58
Originally by: Niloticus I just sent a mail to every victim and requested they all petition. Pretty sure this is not using the game's mechanics as intended.
Sorry to burst your bubble - but that IS correct game mechanics.
Look, it isn't an EULA violation but it is an "exploit" by convention.
The "intended" use of Margin Trading you want trades to succeed. This particular use you are specifically using the skill to ensure that the transaction fails.
It isn't illegal, or against CCP rules, nor should it be changed. But it is an exploit/scam.
The best real life analogy I can think of is the Infield Fly rule in baseball. You WANT to catch fly balls so that the batter is out. People realized that if you purposefully fail to catch the ball in certain circumstances, you could easily achieve double plays. This was considered poor sportsmanship, and "patched" via the Infield Fly Rule.
The EVE Sandbox however, does not require good sportsmanship, and therefor this shouldn't and won't likely be fixed.
|
|
flakeys
DRAMA Inc Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 15:55:00 -
[51]
Edited by: flakeys on 20/10/2010 15:57:53
Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: Captain Pompous All I'm hearing my end is a lot of people going "Wah, wah, other people can adjust orders faster than I can. I'm going to petition this and clog up the support queues even more!"
Way to fail to read the thread!
The question here is IF its cancelling orders fast (in which case, good scam, good game), or if the orders don't even need to be cancelled because the margin trading skill cancels it for you automatically (in which case, should be an exploit, bad game).
The margin trading skill is there for a reason and traders use it verry often.As with everything in eve benefits can be turned around to comfort those who want to scam and this is the case here.The items you bought probably where sold WAY what they actually are being sold for normally.Just go look at it's pricing history and you'll see.
If you now say remove margin trading then let's also remove contract system since a lot of scams also use that.We also might remove the trade item function since that also is being used for scamming.It would be impossible for CCP to change the margin trade skill to avoid scams i believe.
Look , look closer , think , look again , think again THEN go for it usually keeps you out of scamharm.
|
Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 19:15:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: Captain Pompous All I'm hearing my end is a lot of people going "Wah, wah, other people can adjust orders faster than I can. I'm going to petition this and clog up the support queues even more!"
Way to fail to read the thread!
The question here is IF its cancelling orders fast (in which case, good scam, good game), or if the orders don't even need to be cancelled because the margin trading skill cancels it for you automatically (in which case, should be an exploit, bad game).
I don't
1) Waste time reading whine threads fully 2) Waste time reading posts from people whose corporation has a misplaced apostrophe
so put that in your pipe and smoke it...because the pouch of shag has arrived, and it is bitter ---
☻♥ Problem? Therapy sessions ♥☻ |
Princess Bride
Caldari Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 20:52:00 -
[53]
Was just privy to a conversation about this topic and apparently the "powers that be" are taking a close look at it due to all the petitions. It was implied that people using the 'sploit are gonna get yanked up by their collars pretty hard. The words "obviously a punishable exploit under existing rules" were used. No need to "fix" it any more than loan contracts were fixed.
Fly safe.
"The OTHER PLEX is on the OTHER side of the contract. Right click to flip it over." |
Samuel Freedom
Minmatar The High Hats xX Reavers Xx
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 22:15:00 -
[54]
I too have been frustrated with this issue and consider it an exploit. These essentially amount to fake buy orders and can have no legitimate or useful purpose in the game. I have seen this exploit used a lot recently and the abuse potential to the market is huge. CCP if your reading this please fix it now before it becomes a bigger problem.
|
Lady Spank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 22:35:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Samuel Freedom I too have been frustrated with this issue and consider it an exploit. These essentially amount to fake buy orders and can have no legitimate or useful purpose in the game. I have seen this exploit used a lot recently and the abuse potential to the market is huge. CCP if your reading this please fix it now before it becomes a bigger problem.
The useful purpose is taking your money off you. Same as those highly dumb overpriced sales orders and contracts. Again I stress that people need to smarten up. Eve was never intended to support the stupid and weak. ~_~
|
Mickey Simon
TEMPLAR.
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 22:54:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Lady Spank Again I stress that people need to smarten up.
I guess that most people take issue with the fact that it looks like a legitimate sell order and there's literally no way to tell for sure until you try to sell to it, whereas with contracts and every other sort of scam there is always ways to check.
I trade, but I've never encountered this sort of thing before (not due to ignorance, but just because it's not something I've ever seen or heard about). End of the day though, I've lost 500M to this but don't mind too much. Annoyed that I couldn't attempt to counter-scam, but eh~
|
Samuel Freedom
Minmatar The High Hats xX Reavers Xx
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 23:17:00 -
[57]
Hey I never fell for this scam I just figured it out by accident. It is simply an exploit there is no legitimate use for it in the game. The only legitimate part of the scam overall is the contract offer, a fake buy order is nothing but a problem.
But hey since you can set up a fake buy order why not be able to set up a fake sell order too? This way the scammers could drive down the cost of all goods on the market as a whole and buy up the real ones cheap. What a joke, please get rid of the fake buy orders.
I have seen many scams and I don't get upset over them, this is not a scam but an exploit that needs to be fixed.
|
Lady Spank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 23:27:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Mickey Simon
Originally by: Lady Spank Again I stress that people need to smarten up.
I guess that most people take issue with the fact that it looks like a legitimate sell order and there's literally no way to tell for sure until you try to sell to it, whereas with contracts and every other sort of scam there is always ways to check.
I trade, but I've never encountered this sort of thing before (not due to ignorance, but just because it's not something I've ever seen or heard about). End of the day though, I've lost 500M to this but don't mind too much. Annoyed that I couldn't attempt to counter-scam, but eh~
Which part of the transaction actually causes you isk loss? It certainly isn't the failed buy order. Anyone wishing for this to be deemed an exploit is not realising that in order to do so it will need to be linked to the contract or similar sale order that gets the victim 'speculator' to buy the junk item in the first place.
Granted its ****ty but honestly, the key thing here is to know the value of market items. In every case presented in this thread, you are only selling to this overpriced buy order because you bought an item in the hope of profiting while not actually knowing the true value of the module in question. This is arguably the victims fault for falling for something that should be obvious.
Failing that argument you are a greedy **** and deserve to get your fingers burned. ~_~
|
Samuel Freedom
Minmatar The High Hats xX Reavers Xx
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 23:44:00 -
[59]
I just see a huge problem in the trustworthiness of the market if this continues. I guess what your saying is that from this time forward no one should be involved in trade anymore because they can't trust the numbers they see in the market.
The game has some built in trust functions that are essential to the operation of commerce in the game. What I mean is that you see something for sale or have something for sale and you can trust that you will either get the item or the ISK.
Even if you don't end up losing any money it still can effect the market in a very negative way, basically the market can't be trusted anymore because it is being manipulated.
|
Samuel Freedom
Minmatar The High Hats xX Reavers Xx
|
Posted - 2010.10.20 23:51:00 -
[60]
Oh and it's not about "smartening up" because no matter how smart you are it becomes impossible to predict if the buy order is real or fake.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |