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Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
   |
Posted - 2010.10.26 10:54:00 -
[1]
in the old days these ships were underused thus didnt cause any problem for this game. now days it is common to see 20-30 logistic ships in the same gang. lots of the time you end up with 2 gangs both having upwards of 20 logistics ships.
this has made pvp extremely boring and relatively unrisky compared to what it used to be. (i imagine missions also?)
i propose one of a few things:
1. logistics can no longer rep one another (only other non-logistic class ships)
2. introduction of a new t2 bs (logistics) make it relatively expencive but able to fit large reps. then draw back the bonuses to powergrid for the logistics ships. - medium reps still give plenty of reps though so this needs more thought. (you can even leave logi t3s as they are considering their price)
3. remove them from the game...
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THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
Luda Zaba
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Posted - 2010.10.26 19:30:00 -
[2]
no. you suck
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Green-Core
The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.26 19:35:00 -
[3]
Mr. Minigin,
We, the other players of Eve, would like to thank you for taking the time to formulate your ideas into a post and present them to us.
Regrettably, we are unable to accept your idea at the present time because, frankly, we enjoy not getting blown up constantly.
However, I can assure you that, should our position on that change, we will gladly reconsider your proposal.
Yours in fellowship,
--Vel
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.26 19:40:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Luda Zaba
no. you suck
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.10.26 20:40:00 -
[5]
Sorry, but this proposal is bad.
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Yaay
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
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Posted - 2010.10.26 20:44:00 -
[6]
In fairness, Most fights these days are a simple who has more logistics equation. It's not the endgame of pvp, but it plays a huge role in pvp.
I think the problem stems more from bombers and the lack of a possible long range platform for BS and the drake issue more than anything else though. If CCP were to fix probing, fix drakes, and fix the ability of bombers to easily **** long range setups more easily than CR setups, I think the logistics issue would go away.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.26 22:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Yaay
Edited by: Yaay on 26/10/2010 20:47:32
In fairness, Most fights these days are a simple who has more logistics equation. It's not the endgame of pvp, but it plays a huge role in pvp.
I think the problem stems more from bombers and the lack of a possible long range platform for BS and the drake issue more than anything else though. If CCP were to fix probing, fix drakes, and fix the ability of bombers to easily **** long range setups more easily than CR setups, I think the logistics issue would go away.
or people could stop fit LR fleet BS in glass cannon mode? most CR fleet BS survive because they actually fit some buffer.
and since your drake comment i am quite sure you are just trolling and dont understand ****.
Quote:
I still think Light Dictors bubbles need to be looked at as well. Heavy dictors have an actual defined limitation to their bubble. If the heavy interdictor dies or gets neuted, or get's out ranged, it's bubble becomes useless. Light dictors die and their bubble still projects itself for up to 2 minutes. This makes no sense as it affects warp in's, and the ability of fleets to escape.
i think it is rather balanced. they die faster but their bubble can last a bit after they died. hics are harder to kill but their bubble is gone instantly.
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Kogh Ayon
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Posted - 2010.10.26 22:46:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Yaay
Edited by: Yaay on 26/10/2010 20:47:32
In fairness, Most fights these days are a simple who has more logistics equation. It's not the endgame of pvp, but it plays a huge role in pvp.
I think the problem stems more from bombers and the lack of a possible long range platform for BS and the drake issue more than anything else though. If CCP were to fix probing, fix drakes, and fix the ability of bombers to easily **** long range setups more easily than CR setups, I think the logistics issue would go away.
I still think Light Dictors bubbles need to be looked at as well. Heavy dictors have an actual defined limitation to their bubble. If the heavy interdictor dies or gets neuted, or get's out ranged, it's bubble becomes useless. Light dictors die and their bubble still projects itself for up to 2 minutes. This makes no sense as it affects warp in's, and the ability of fleets to escape.
More strategies! Not more nerfs
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Altaica Amur
The Elliance
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Posted - 2010.10.26 23:26:00 -
[9]
No
For one making use of logistics requires skill and organization, yeah it keeps people alive, that's sorta the point but it has a significant cost and can go horribly wrong.
For another logistics lessening the value of DPS heightens the value of alpha balancing it with the much vaunted DPS and allowing for a broader range of strategies. Where before there was no real question weather you preferred to have 40 apocs or 40 Tempests the alpha of the latter enabling it to eliminate portions of the logistics chain in a volley promote a broader mix of strategies to counter logistics.
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Crazy KSK
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Posted - 2010.10.27 00:47:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Crazy KSK on 27/10/2010 00:49:53
Originally by: Altaica Amur
No
For one making use of logistics requires skill and organization, yeah it keeps people alive, that's sorta the point but it has a significant cost and can go horribly wrong.
For another logistics lessening the value of DPS heightens the value of alpha balancing it with the much vaunted DPS and allowing for a broader range of strategies. Where before there was no real question weather you preferred to have 40 apocs or 40 Tempests the alpha of the latter enabling it to eliminate portions of the logistics chain in a volley promote a broader mix of strategies to counter logistics.
that would lead me to the idea of lowering the cycle time of repers which would lead to more microing for the logi pilot as he now can't just turn his reps on he has to time the cycles and small ships could get alphaed a lot easier shifting logis more into the endgame battleship fleets
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Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.10.27 02:04:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Minigin on 27/10/2010 02:16:52
let me be clear on what the issue here is... because people are being naieve in my eyes. the issue is how cost effective logistics are, and the spike in use of them.
if you are an fc (as i was) and you have a choice to order a bunch of people to join your gang in snipers or logistics... the likelihood that you would ask them for logistics is growing. eventually we will get to the stage where
a)if you are solo pvping - not that you would... but assume you are... you will almost certainly have to bust through logistics to kill anything.
b)if you are fighting a gang all it will ever come down to is "how many logistics i have" and wether they are asleep at the keyboard or not.
let me reference this to nano-age play. im sure many of you remember the outcry to nerf them because they were "unkillable" the reason this nerf was unjustified in my eyes was that there were easy counters to it, and the actual piloting required and ounce of skill / decision making.
the weight of logistics ships pretty much get rid of any of this. wether it be small gang or large. further the counters are relatively outlandish, and are difficult - almost impossible to pull off against a gang that isnt consisted entirely of people who have no idea whats going on.
now i understand why people dont want this idea to go through... because you ALL use logistics ships very heavily now. well let me remind you, before they were fotm we were running gangs with dual logis and up when we had the numbers and the results were undeniably awesome. but in all my time flying with them i noticed something, it was much easier than nanostuff, far more cost efficeent, the hardest thing in the entire setup was counting dps and counting tank then factoring in friggin ecm drones (which also deserve a nerf - hi would you like to spend 20k to be INVINCIBLE FOREVER?!?!?!?)
so dont get me wrong i get the reluctance to want this change, but you are all going to have to make a choice now, do you want this game to get easier? do you want it to be ALL based on numbers? do you not want to be able to make decisions in your fights that have more influence than just "ill bring a logistics ship".
because we are heading there, we are going to get to a stage where fights will get beyond boring and when we get there, there will be no one to blame. because the game is exactly what we wanted it to be.
- ps. i actually do kinda like the idea of lowering cycle time on the reps even if they buff the rep amount to compensate a little, just because then it would actually require a bit more decision making but again, its mostly with the force trying to crack logis (which will usually be both groups) but still... i like that it would lead to more decision making
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THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
Tower of Dark Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.27 04:23:00 -
[12]
wtf?
Some words... EWar, neutralizers, bombs, alpha. make sence?
t2 bs with triage module? :)
---
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Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.10.27 04:40:00 -
[13]
Originally by: JcJet
wtf?
Some words... EWar, neutralizers, bombs, alpha. make sence?
t2 bs with triage module? :)
so tell me... did you work out these perfect counters via your 11 kills and 9 losses?
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THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
Kuunkulta
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Posted - 2010.10.27 05:24:00 -
[14]
How does his ammount of losses and kills make his points less valid? Those are good counters, and there are more tactics that can be employed very succesfully. It's not like logis are answer for all, they can be countered, even without altering fleet composition.
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Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.10.27 05:32:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kuunkulta
How does his ammount of losses and kills make his points less valid? Those are good counters, and there are more tactics that can be employed very succesfully. It's not like logis are answer for all, they can be countered, even without altering fleet composition.
his point isnt less valid... it is just wrong... and he would know this if he had experiance of it.
neuts and ewar are virtually useless against logi gangs for reasons so obvious i wont even bother stating.
smartbombs are not effective at all because they require your adversary to be remarkably aweful (i mean sure it works... but you cant just rely on your opponents being bad and thus the counter is made) - and perhaps most telling is that he ignored bombs/bombers which have been used somewhat effectively in the past, however again its so easy to not get bombed...
the fact that logis have such small sig radius and usualy do well to keep their radial high means that alphaing them isnt nearly as simple as you are claiming...
yes it can work and i have employed the use of tps as well as alpha ships to crack logi gangs before, but even with tps alpha ships and even ewar trying to harass it is still far far too easy for the weight of logis to hold their tanks for long enough that they dont lose many before they can retreat or whatever.
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THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
hjgjgfgfgsj
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Posted - 2010.10.27 15:53:00 -
[16]
The idea isn't as badas these people are saying.
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worvand
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Posted - 2010.10.27 16:27:00 -
[17]
Edited by: worvand on 27/10/2010 16:29:25
your fixes of the problem are too dramatic and cause more problems like the not letting logistic ships repair each other. the opposing fleet would then target logistic ships first then pick off the rest.
i think the problem you brought up is there just your solutions are bad. here are my solutions. i suggest solution 2 over solution 1.
my solution one: add a very very small diminishing return for the number of ships reping a single ship. not the number of modules.
pros: the logistics would not be as strong and fights would go alittle faster. and having a large ammount of logistic ships would begin to cause less and less effect on the battle
cons: the load on the server would increase causing more lag. and logistic ship players and tons of pvp players will whine to ccp
my solution one result: not suggested too much lag in pvp right now
my solution two: make it so that having a logistics module fitted to your ship would slightly reduce the amount of repairs you get. this will cause less people to have their pvp ships and 1 logistic item for support of others. but have the logistic specific ships almost negate this effect
pros: a great fall in the number of reps due to the fall in ships that have a single reper attached to their ship, while not making logistics a huge target.
cons: slightly more lag but not much and again more whine also causes the ships that use a single reper to be less efficient at pvp.
my solution two: better than one but still needs work. but i would say its doable. also the problem gets fixed with little hit to normal gameplay
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Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.10.27 16:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: worvand
Edited by: worvand on 27/10/2010 16:29:25
your fixes of the problem are too dramatic and cause more problems like the not letting logistic ships repair each other. the opposing fleet would then target logistic ships first then pick off the rest.
i think the problem you brought up is there just your solutions are bad. here are my solutions. i suggest solution 2 over solution 1.
my solution one: add a very very small diminishing return for the number of ships reping a single ship. not the number of modules.
pros: the logistics would not be as strong and fights would go alittle faster. and having a large ammount of logistic ships would begin to cause less and less effect on the battle
cons: the load on the server would increase causing more lag. and logistic ship players and tons of pvp players will whine to ccp
my solution one result: not suggested too much lag in pvp right now
my solution two: make it so that having a logistics module fitted to your ship would slightly reduce the amount of repairs you get. this will cause less people to have their pvp ships and 1 logistic item for support of others. but have the logistic specific ships almost negate this effect
pros: a great fall in the number of reps due to the fall in ships that have a single reper attached to their ship, while not making logistics a huge target.
cons: slightly more lag but not much and again more whine also causes the ships that use a single reper to be less efficient at pvp.
my solution two: better than one but still needs work. but i would say its doable. also the problem gets fixed with little hit to normal gameplay
i like the stacking penalty idea. glad you posted it.
i think it would maintain logis effectiveness particularly as a force multiplier esp in small gangs, but will definatly curb those hour long fights where the only casualties are cosmetic.
.
THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.10.27 16:40:00 -
[19]
How about a weapon supercharger.
A top slot module that swaps dps for alpha.
When activated weapons do 4x damage but have a 5 times longer rof.
Weapon must be activated before it starts building up power and fires at the end of the cycle to prevent its abuse in a precharged mode in suicide gank situations.
build up cycle can be cancelled and weapons fire if the supercharger is clicked off.
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worvand
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Posted - 2010.10.27 17:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dav Varan
How about a weapon supercharger.
A top slot module that swaps dps for alpha.
When activated weapons do 4x damage but have a 5 times longer rof.
Weapon must be activated before it starts building up power and fires at the end of the cycle to prevent its abuse in a precharged mode in suicide gank situations.
build up cycle can be cancelled and weapons fire if the supercharger is clicked off.
hmm like the idea but that would **** the non buffered ships too much. too much of a super weapon against smaller ship. also look up the new doomsday set up. Your idea is already in effect. only usable by titans tho
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.10.27 17:25:00 -
[21]
Change cap transfer cycles to work like shield transfers instead of armor transfers (cap deposited at start of cycle instead of end). Neuts will devestate cap transfer chains more easily, leading people to increase use the somewhat less rep effective logi models. Done.
---
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Nuts Nougat
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.10.27 17:42:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 27/10/2010 17:43:48
Originally by: Dav Varan
How about a weapon supercharger.
A top slot module that swaps dps for alpha.
When activated weapons do 4x damage but have a 5 times longer rof.
Weapon must be activated before it starts building up power and fires at the end of the cycle to prevent its abuse in a precharged mode in suicide gank situations.
build up cycle can be cancelled and weapons fire if the supercharger is clicked off.
It's called artillery.
---
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Kalle Demos
Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.10.27 18:02:00 -
[23]
Im keen on a new type of EW that lowers the effectiveness of remote reps / cap transfer so it wont be as simple as "ohh X is taking damage, everyone rep him".
Anyway ill support because since the alliance tourny almost everyone flies a logi and tbh this game for the longest time has been numbers > skill
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FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.27 19:42:00 -
[24]
I do so love these "I fail at EVE, CCP, save me!!!!" proposals.
I remember an AHAX fleet I was in over the summer where our logi wing was absolutely devastated in short order when our enemy turned out to be fitting short range weapons, painters and webs on their battlecruisers. Or another fight where our logis were barely effective because the enemy brought a lot of scorpions to the fight. Or another where they were hugely alpha-heavy, and our logi chain simply couldn't keep up with the incoming alpha and by the time someone broadcast and we got them locked up and got a rep cycle on them, they were probably dead.
But, obviously, CCP needs to intervene.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 03:18:00 -
[25]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
I do so love these "I fail at EVE, CCP, save me!!!!" proposals.
I remember an AHAX fleet I was in over the summer where our logi wing was absolutely devastated in short order when our enemy turned out to be fitting short range weapons, painters and webs on their battlecruisers. Or another fight where our logis were barely effective because the enemy brought a lot of scorpions to the fight. Or another where they were hugely alpha-heavy, and our logi chain simply couldn't keep up with the incoming alpha and by the time someone broadcast and we got them locked up and got a rep cycle on them, they were probably dead.
But, obviously, CCP needs to intervene.
i dont think you read the part where it was said "sure you can counter idiots".
the fact that a remotely non-******ed scout can LOOK AT SHIPMODELS to see WHAT GUNS ARE FITTED, as well as see if theres a smartbomb trap or tonnes of people in local that arnt anywhere on scan aka bombers.
leads me to believe that you are having a whinge because you enjoy being able to run around with 30 logis and die a fraction of the time you should because of how bad you are.
ps. ive seen the rzr fits for "AHAX" and theres a reason you guys lose them. furthermore ive fought you in provi and you go closerange when you should come in long and you come in short range when you should go long.
the reason you arnt thinking this is a little boring/imba is because you are bad enough to make severe enough mistaks to get massacred.
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THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.28 08:34:00 -
[26]
Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 28/10/2010 08:41:04
Originally by: Minigin
i dont think you read the part where it was said "sure you can counter idiots".
1. Seriously, stop typing in green, it's neither clever nor funny.
2. No, what you actually said was "the weight of logistics ships pretty much get rid of [viable counters]. wether it be small gang or large. further the counters are relatively outlandish, and are difficult - almost impossible to pull off against a gang that isnt consisted entirely of people who have no idea whats going on."
The counters are neither outlandish nor difficult to pull off against a decent gang with logi support, even a lot of logi support. And I just named a few off the top of my head.
Originally by: Minigin
you are having a whinge because you enjoy being able to run around with 30 logis and die a fraction of the time you should because of how bad you are.
1. Stop trolling, you're really bad at it and just end up looking like you ride the short bus. Yes, because I know that it's pretty easy to counter a logi wing then blah blah blah and I must be bad and blah blah. You're the one who's asking CCP to come save you because you can't deal with logis in the game. I'm the one who's trying to explain to you how you can deal with them. And that makes you think that I need help. At least we know that your deductive problem solving skills need work...
2. No, seriously, you're really not good at trolling. It's just sad. Stop while you're behind and call it a day.
Originally by: Minigin
ps. ive seen the rzr fits for "AHAX" and theres a reason you guys lose them.
1. No, seriously, your trolling must have been tarded before being it's obviously doing it again. It just looks stupid. Not that waving your epeen around isn't convincing (it isn't though) but your trolling about ship fittings is even sadder. To say nothing of the fact that you're pulling your trolling out of your nether regions and the fits are absolutely solid.
2.But of course that's the point of your trolling and rather than discussing why your whine about logis is ******ed and virtually nobody is supporting it, you'd rather discuss ship fittings (because, of course, RZR ship fittings will totally prove something about the combat profile of a Basilisk).
Originally by: Minigin
the reason you arnt thinking this is a little boring/imba is because you are bad enough to make severe enough mistaks to get massacred.
1. No, seriously, you suck at trolling. Stop it. To remind you, you're the one who's claiming both that logis are virtually impossible to counter (because you're actually good at EVE and can adapt, but you'd rather not and it'd be nice if CCP would save you) and that people who can counter logis must be really bad at EVE, because if they were good they'd be helpless, like you.
2. It's also rather obvious that you don't actually know what you're talking about despite your bull about scouting and what-not.
"I've got 120 reds in local... checking direcitonal... harbi, harbi, cane, cane, cane, scimi, scimi..."
"Quick, look at the ship models of all the ships in the fleet and tell me what the guns look like!"
"...what?"
"Warp in on them, get within 100 km, and manually click on all the ships to make sure that they don't have short range weapons fit. Don't worry, we'll wait."
"Yes but..."
"Oh, and find out if they have any cynos fit so they could hotdrop us with an opposing force and they're just bait to lock us down."
"Wait, I don't think you..."
"Oh, and make sure that they aren't fitting target painters or lots of webs. Man, I hate it when that happens."
"Okay... honest question, are you high?"
"What? This is what all the pro FC's do. You're really bad."
I like you Minigin, you may suck at trolling but boy are you funny.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.10.28 10:05:00 -
[27]
Get a wing of Rooks or Falcons then, problem solved.
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JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
Tower of Dark Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 10:18:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Minigin
Originally by: JcJet
wtf?
Some words... EWar, neutralizers, bombs, alpha. make sence?
t2 bs with triage module? :)
so tell me... did you work out these perfect counters via your 11 kills and 9 losses?
No, not just me, it's right bacause it so.
---
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FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.28 10:21:00 -
[29]
Ah, but somewhere you may have (in someone's opinion) fit a ship wrong.
Also your text is very obviously not green.
Therefore you are wrong.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
Tower of Dark Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.28 10:38:00 -
[30]
Fit a ship wrong? even if so, it's doesn't mean anything here :) but definitely i'm never discuss fittings on forums, which is good, because if i do, it's will be a sign that i irrationally wasting time :)
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Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.10.28 13:11:00 -
[31]
i cant tell you how ironic it seems to me, that i am being called ******ed by someone who claims its unreasonable to have a scout be able to tell the difference between long range and short range guns. of course it would seem unreasonable to someone in a razor "AHAX" gang because you dont actually know how to pvp... you just run around in a very powerful (and unoriginal) setup.
and yet its me that needs to adapt or die?
this problem is still in its infancy believe it or not. before long you too will see why this is so ridiculous. but for now you are just relieved you arnt losing as many ships as you should be.
.
THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
General Rivera
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Posted - 2010.10.28 15:21:00 -
[32]
Edited by: General Rivera on 28/10/2010 15:24:57
Dude Logitics are good ships and there are ways to defeat a fleet made up of Logis. You have ECM, Neuts, etc.
A properly fitted curse can drain a Logi with one blow from 75k away. Also a logi fleet is only as good as its weakest link (the less properly skilled logi pilot) if you break the chain you break the logi fleet. I understand your point really i do. 
My Anti-Logi fleet would be:
Force Recons
BC
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FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 15:48:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Minigin
and yet its me that needs to adapt or die?
Strictly speaking you just need to stop trolling because you're awful at it. Failing that you need to stop waving your epeen around like you made a point and, especially, stop crap posting like you thought that this was CAOD. You might want to learn a bit about the game so while you're flailing yourself in the face with your own epeen you don't look quite so silly.
And while you don't have to adapt or "die"' it would be awfully nice if you'd at least stop whining. Not that your whole "I am awful and cannot adapt and the reason everybody else can adapt is because they are so much worse than me! If they were as good, or even better than me they would be as helpless as I am if not more so! It is only because I have a hefty, swinging epeen that I am powerless and need CCP to save me, LOL you must really suck if you don't need CCP to protect you." ... isn't funny.
P.S also you are right. Posting entirely in lime green really does make your argument stylish and sophisticated. People respect folks who are unable to write with text that isn't just so gosh darn pretty.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 16:23:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Minigin on 28/10/2010 16:28:12
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Originally by: Minigin
and yet its me that needs to adapt or die?
Strictly speaking you just need to stop trolling because you're awful at it. Failing that you need to stop waving your epeen around like you made a point and, especially, stop crap posting like you thought that this was CAOD. You might want to learn a bit about the game so while you're flailing yourself in the face with your own epeen you don't look quite so silly.
And while you don't have to adapt or "die"' it would be awfully nice if you'd at least stop whining. Not that your whole "I am awful and cannot adapt and the reason everybody else can adapt is because they are so much worse than me! If they were as good, or even better than me they would be as helpless as I am if not more so! It is only because I have a hefty, swinging epeen that I am powerless and need CCP to save me, LOL you must really suck if you don't need CCP to protect you." ... isn't funny.
P.S also you are right. Posting entirely in lime green really does make your argument stylish and sophisticated. People respect folks who are unable to write with text that isn't just so gosh darn pretty.
so your saying... to survive in this game i need to be more like you.
as in... i need to steal flavour of the month setups from pl, use them poorly, blob the **** out of anything that moves then say
its ok if this game is boring... as long as i know how to "win" it.
btw im willing to talk to anyone about these things on my ts3 server if you want to have a more detailed chat about these things.
i of course expect you to take the vuk lau approach to this invitation, theres no way you can lose an argument you dont have right?
.
THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 17:33:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Minigin
your
My? Perhaps you mean "you're" as in "you are" and not a possessive like "your".'I guess that, what with typing in all green, making sure you can wrote on an 8th grade level is a bit much.
Also seriously stop trollng; stop smmqcking yourself in the face with your epeen. Not only do you keep confusing the forum with CAOD but your ignorant rage is silly: RZR was using armor HAC gangs about a year and a half before PL, not that that bit of your trollng matters either.
And no, just stop whining and trolling people on the forums and asking CCP to save you and adapt so that you can counter logi heavy gangs.
P.S. A very good way to spot a third rate whine is when someone starts complaning that a larger group of players are a "blob". Bonus points for your troll about "blogging" right next to your own refutation as you babble about AHAX gangs which routinely fight outnumbered 2 or 3:1. You can't even make up your mind what you're trollng about, the lack of mid sized gangs or the fact that people are using mid sized gangs but you can not adapt so CCP has to rescue you.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
R.A.G.E
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 17:47:00 -
[36]
This is a really bad idea. Logistics aren't an i-win button by any stretch of the imagination. Not having them at all is usually an easy way to lose fights. There is an upward limit where having more logistics in a fleet no longer provides a benefit in any event. Additionally, there are already many different strategies in the game to foil a fleet with logistics support.
Not being able to win because the other fleet has logistics is possibly the worst cop-out an FC can use right now.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
|
Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 17:54:00 -
[37]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Originally by: Minigin
your
My? Perhaps you mean "you're" as in "you are" and not a possessive like "your".'I guess that, what with typing in all green, making sure you can wrote on an 8th grade level is a bit much.
Also seriously stop trollng; stop smmqcking yourself in the face with your epeen. Not only do you keep confusing the forum with CAOD but your ignorant rage is silly: RZR was using armor HAC gangs about a year and a half before PL, not that that bit of your trollng matters either.
And no, just stop whining and trolling people on the forums and asking CCP to save you and adapt so that you can counter logi heavy gangs.
P.S. A very good way to spot a third rate whine is when someone starts complaning that a larger group of players are a "blob". Bonus points for your troll about "blogging" right next to your own refutation as you babble about AHAX gangs which routinely fight outnumbered 2 or 3:1. You can't even make up your mind what you're trollng about, the lack of mid sized gangs or the fact that people are using mid sized gangs but you can not adapt so CCP has to rescue you.
one does not simply abreviate logistics to logi... dear lord the 8th grade teachers might complain. also you might want to check your "i" button because you wrote "trollng" something like 3 times as well as "complaning".
furthermore thanks for the "WE ARE REALLY GOOD WE FIGHT OUTNUMBERED!" line. i was hoping you would pull that.
i have seen first hand how bad you guys are, and that is exactly my point. an ape can pull off what you are doing. i not only know this because of fighting you and people like you, but i use logis far more than you can/have and have had much better results.
i am warning you that the path we are going down is going to lead to a very boring eve and pretty soon.
if you want to complain that all this is is that i want ccp to save me from something i use/do and know to be easy. then continue. but dont delude yourself into believing for a second that you arnt just trying to mask the fact that you wont be able to adapt to another change because god help us this game might actually require more skill and thought to perform well in.
ps. shameless plug: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcYFhO6wxc4
.
THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 18:05:00 -
[38]
Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 28/10/2010 18:14:09
No, the abbreviation for logistics ships is "logi". And typical trolling on your part: you can type in all green but you have a 7th grade vocabulary, so attack typos someone makes with an iPhone.
Of course the rest of your post is just more trolling plus some hillarious lying. Caught in your lie that RZR lifted AHAX from PL you just try to move on with more CAOD crap posting while lying and claiming that anybody said anything about being "really good". I was simply pointing out that your trolling sucks and you want to troll people for having large gangs and also for not having large gangs.
Not that your babbling about how you can see the future and it's hoooooooorible. (coupled with more CAOD style smacking yourself in the face with your epeen) isn't hillarious.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 18:08:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Minigin on 28/10/2010 18:14:58
Edited by: Minigin on 28/10/2010 18:13:15
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
No, the abbreviation for logistics ships is "logi". And typical trolling on your part: you can type in all green but you have a 7th grade vocabular, so attack typos someone makes with an iPhone.
Of course the rest of your post is just more trolling plus some hillarious lying. Caught in your lie that RZR lifted AHAX from PL you just try to move on with more CAOD crap posting while lying and claiming that anybody said anything about being "really good". I was simply pointing out that your trolling sucks and you want to troll people for having large gangs and also for not having large gangs.
link me to the first razor AHAXXXXXXX gang
ps i only ever get involved in baby spelling arguments once someone else brings them up and in the same post has several spelling / tense mistakes (ok the spelling i can say... whatever its an iphone...) but saying "was" instead of "is" is probably not an issue with your iphone.
pss do you agree to come on ts/vent and have a chat about this? seeing as how this is all an elaborate troll?
.
THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 18:19:00 -
[40]
More ignorance. Not knowing basic 8th vocab is not the same thing as a typo. Not that I'm surprised, mind, people who have to write with pretty colors aret doing so because their text is great on it's own.
And nice bit of trollling, you make shut up about RZR lifting a gang concept from PL and when caught in your lie, you then try to get me to look through our billboard for some engagements where we lost enough ships that you can see gang fittings/composition. As trolling goes I give it a .5/10
Good try though.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 18:27:00 -
[41]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
More ignorance. Not knowing basic 8th vocab is not the same thing as a typo. Not that I'm surprised, mind, people who have to write with pretty colors aret doing so because their text is great on it's own.
And nice bit of trollling, you make shut up about RZR lifting a gang concept from PL and when caught in your lie, you then try to get me to look through our billboard for some engagements where we lost enough ships that you can see gang fittings/composition. As trolling goes I give it a .5/10
Good try though.
are you getting more and more angry how wrong you are? resulting in more and more fatfingered typos?
it certainly looks that way.
heres the order of "armor hac" (smallsigstyle) gangs btw.
soldiers of thunderstorm -> darkside -> pl -> everyone else.
say yes, come on ts! im waiting for you!
.
THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 18:37:00 -
[42]
Just pure trolling now, I see. Yes, I know that the purpose of trolling is to try to **** people off, but I find your trolling funny and/or awful, hardly upsetting. Not that, of course, you have any reason to try to bak up your claims of helplessness and massive need for CCP to save you.
Your made-up chronology of armor HAC gangs is certainly proof of... something though, boy howdy.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 18:41:00 -
[43]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Just pure trolling now, I see. Yes, I know that the purpose of trolling is to try to **** people off, but I find your trolling funny and/or awful, hardly upsetting. Not that, of course, you have any reason to try to bak up your claims of helplessness and massive need for CCP to save you.
Your made-up chronology of armor HAC gangs is certainly proof of... something though, boy howdy.
how could i forget... razor invented the armor hac.
i know you didnt explicitly say this... but its going in my bio
FinnAgain Zero > razor invented armorhacs
.
THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 19:01:00 -
[44]
Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 28/10/2010 19:06:28
Yep, that's so you: lying so that you could invent a fictional quote and then putting it in your bio. Never atop trolling, you're hilariously bad at it.
Speaking of your trollng, I take it that since you're now totally ignoring your own argument about how impotent younger and how CCP has to save you, and instead fabricating quotes to troll, you're pretty mug admittingtht you ain't got nothin'.
I'm shocked. Shocked.
Well, not that shocked.
P.S that 7th grade level of vocabulary again, eh? "Its" is posessive and denotes ownership, "it's"'is a contraction of "it" and "is". Less time making your text pretty colors, more tome getting to a 15 year old's command of the English language.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 19:07:00 -
[45]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Yep, that's so you: lying so that you could invent a fictional quote and then putting it in your bio. Never atop trolling, you're hilariously bad at it.
Speaking of your trollng, I take it that since you're now totally ignoring your own argument about how impotent younger and how CCP has to save you, and instead fabricating quotes to troll, you're pretty mug admittingtht you ain't got nothin'.
I'm shocked. Shocked.
Well, not that shocked.
1. so wait... did or did razor not invent armor hacs? so we can set the record straight?
2. will you be coming on ts to talk about any of this
ive even numbered the two things i want answers from you for. if you could number your answers so i can see them clearly that would be very helpful.
.
THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 19:33:00 -
[46]
Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 28/10/2010 19:36:13
Guess you just like trolling and won't stop, eh? Of course you and I both know you're a liar. If not please link to the post where the quote you made up allegedly appears. Can't, eh? Hard to link to your own imagination, eh? Who'd a thunk it? Of course I do not share your pretensions, I'm not fabricating a history of EVE only relating the facts of when RZR first used a specific gang type. I have no comment on who allegedly did it "first". You can pretend that out of 10's of thousands of players, you know everybody who fit which ships in which ways, and when.
Of course, as I said, it's obvious that since all you have now is trolling that you have, literally, nothing else.
P.S. I believe that you have an 8th grade vocabulary or above like I believe that I really wrote the quote you made up and claimed I wrote.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minari Zoranna
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 19:42:00 -
[47]
FinnAgain Zero:
You should really stop feeding the troll and also stop pushing this thread right back to the top of the assembly hall. Let it die quietly since nobody (including you) cares.
|
Minigin
Trinity Corp
WE FORM VOLTRON
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 19:42:00 -
[48]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 28/10/2010 19:36:13
Guess you just like trolling and won't stop, eh? Of course you and I both know you're a liar. If not please link to the post where the quote you made up allegedly appears. Can't, eh? Hard to link to your own imagination, eh? Who'd a thunk it? Of course I do not share your pretensions, I'm not fabricating a history of EVE only relating the facts of when RZR first used a specific gang type. I have no comment on who allegedly did it "first". You can pretend that out of 10's of thousands of players, you know everybody who fit which ships in which ways, and when.
Of course, as I said, it's obvious that since all you have now is trolling that you have, literally, nothing else.
P.S. I believe that you have an 8th grade vocabulary or above like I believe that I really wrote the quote you made up and claimed I wrote.
so what you are saying is:
1. razor did not make the idea of armor hacs, so as i claimed earlier in this thread they are unoriginal and happy to exploit whatever tactics are employed well by other alliances.
2. no answer
ps. i think you probably were born with a few less lights on upstairs than most other people... but it has no real substance to what you are trying to say which is (or should be) "logistics are do not get exponentially stronger/more boring in larger numbers as more and more people start to use them"
.
THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER!
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D |
Vheri Kai'or
|
Posted - 2010.10.28 20:08:00 -
[49]
the ***ottry in this thread is astounding.
flame wars aside, wanting logi blanket nerfed because they are fotm is a bit dumb.
so some small 133t alliance thinks up something good, uses it enough that folks notice and start using it, and then suddenly its op because the less 133t alliances happen to have more numbers?
and yeah, logi chains are hard to properly break unless they are inexperienced. so what?
start looking into avenues to counter logitrains.
or hell, nerf the guardian/basi cap chains, bring their repping capabilities in line with the other two.
non the less, minigins nerfs essentially make a hella long skill pointless, but required for carriers. thats fail whichever way you fudge it.
|
BloodySpade
Amarr
ANZAC ALLIANCE
IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.10.29 03:17:00 -
[50]
1. Sure... as soon as you make capitals and supercapitals unable to rep each other as well. Same gimping for everybody... 
2. Could be interesting if scaling back logis to medium rep fittings. Don't see it happening though, those would not be carebear ships per say and thus would get low development priority. This could actually work... somewhat...
3. Well, when we're at that, I suggest me also remove 'dictors and HICs as well. Why? Because we can?
|
Melkie
The Executives
IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 02:01:00 -
[51]
there is no issue...
|
mchief117
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 04:15:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Minigin
his point isnt less valid... it is just wrong... and he would know this if he had experiance of it.
neuts and ewar are virtually useless against logi gangs for reasons so obvious i wont even bother stating.
if your going to try and shoot something down saying that its so bad it doesnt need an explanation only works 5% of the time, like trying to figure out why some guy fitted a titan with mining lasers and such.
that said im generaly on anti logi duty when it comes to fights as silly me i trained caldari BS5 and have no real turret skills, so im generayl flying my scorp.
The main strenght of a Logi blob is there ability to lock each other as they take incoming damage and rep faster than the damage there taking, if i can knock out 5 logis even for 20 seconds thats generayl enough time to actualy kill one , simply rince and repeat.
That said the main problem in eve is not that there are to many logis , its that there are to few other roles in fleets. currently there are 3 fleet parts, command ships, main fleet, logis. command ships generaly take a very long time to get good at and every one can be part of the main fleet, hence the only other avalable part is logis
|
devilsspawn
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate.
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 04:27:00 -
[53]
Edited by: devilsspawn on 03/11/2010 04:29:26
minigin=chromo effect?
amidoingitrite?
|
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 05:22:00 -
[54]
Originally by: devilsspawn
[limegreen]minigin=chromo effect?
Sounds probable.
Originally by: mchief117
that said im generaly on anti logi duty when it comes to fights as silly me i trained caldari BS5 and have no real turret skills, so im generayl flying my scorp.
No no no, it's virtually impossible. Mini can't do it, and therefore it can't be done and CCP needs to save him from logistic ships.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 07:37:00 -
[55]
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4910/ificanjam5logis.png
i fly a scorpion so im going to jam 5 logis.
50 logis vs 50 logis in my opinion (esp once people learn how to fit them properly) are going to be really really boring fights.
im not saying its completely unbreakable. because i have ways of doing so. i just dont think its going to be as fun as having more fights where more people lose ships and it becomes more about how you pilot your ship and good fcing decisions etc etc rather than "are our logis going to fall asleep and not rep people, and will people forget to broadcast"
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
wr3cks
Reliables Inc
Majesta Empire
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 07:57:00 -
[56]
tl;dr: after 54 replies and 700+ reads, only the original poster thinks this is a good idea.
meanwhile, almost everyone agrees that logis warp speed should be upped to match most normal fleetships, it was approved by the CSM, submitted to CCP, involves changing one value in the database, and CCP has done jack **** about it.
is it just me or does posting ideas in here seem increasingly pointless? |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 08:41:00 -
[57]
im sure if everyone had their own mint, and was able to print however much money they wanted, they would also (at least in the short run) think its fine.
its only after you start having to spend a million dollars on a loaf of bread that you realise what you have done to yourselves.
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
Natasha Hec
Gallente
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 09:54:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Minigin
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4910/ificanjam5logis.png
i fly a scorpion so im going to jam 5 logis.
50 logis vs 50 logis in my opinion (esp once people learn how to fit them properly) are going to be really really boring fights.
im not saying its completely unbreakable. because i have ways of doing so. i just dont think its going to be as fun as having more fights where more people lose ships and it becomes more about how you pilot your ship and good fcing decisions etc etc rather than "are our logis going to fall asleep and not rep people, and will people forget to broadcast"
Hold on so where are those eccm projectors coming from?
|
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 10:43:00 -
[59]
Yet again, faced with someone who (yet again) is trying to remove his ignorance and point out effective ways to counter logis, Mini is arguing for his own impotence. It's almost like no matter what, Mini is going to aruge for reasons why he simply can't accomplish anything and why CCP has to save him and put his game on Easy Mode.
Oh, wait, I mean it's exactly like that.
Originally by: Natasha Hec
Hold on so where are those eccm projectors coming from?
It's a decent tactic (in certain gang types) for standard ships to fit a remote ECCM or two and to have logi partners that they can pair up with.
Of course, as I keep pointing out, Mini is a liar and a troll and nothing he says can be taken at face value. A Basi with one local ECCM and two remotes on it has a sensor strength of 153, not 269. But of course his "all level V" should actually read "all level V - Modified" because he's got a full set of high grade Talon implants in there, for, IIRC, about half a billion ISK.
I guess Mini just accidentally forgot to mention that.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 11:12:00 -
[60]
if i wanted eve on easy mode... should i not "make friends" and join a coalition such as the nc?
we talk as if its something hard/worth doing, how you are playing the game. like i should aspire to be as good as you...
if i was in it for the fun, should i not look at things which arnt fun in this game and say... "is this fun/not fun... why/why not... how can it be made more fun?
instead of everytime there is a suggestion of change i choke in my own furrious splutters of "that guy just wants easymode eve he wants mommy ccp to come save him". lets face it, youve spent the better part of the last few days claiming i cant adapt to what eve is like, yet ive been there done it all, and suggested that it might be in everyones best interests if it not remain so.
if anything all you are proving by blind ranting is that you would be unable to adapt to changes such as logistics blobs becoming marginally important and jumbridge systems being slightly less effective. and i think the reason why is because it took you so long to figure out how to use these things to begin with. you dont want to learn how to do anything else. its really quite sad.
your sense makes no.
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 11:25:00 -
[61]
Caught in the fact that you were lying and trolling with that picture and its half billion in implants that you just happened to forget to mention and edited the info to hide, you are (again) trying to change the subject. And you're attempting to change it by:
-trolling the NC.
-trolling the NC again.
-again pretending that you are the Emperor of Fun and nobody can decide for themselves how to play the game but since you need Mommy CCP to protect you and set your game on Easy Mode, that you're really doing that so you can benefit other people (whether they want it or not).
-the same trolling tactic you keep using where you troll, and then post about how someone is going to call you out for trolling, and then claim victory since you're obviously trolling but someone pointed it out so you win valuable points redeemable for fantastic prizes.
-then trolling that since you're unable to adapt and you constantly argue for your own impotence and talk about how you need Mommy CCP to save you and give you Easy Mode, that really it's the people who can adapt and play the game who are the ones who want Easy Mode. It's your traditional troll on this subject: people who play the game and adapt are the ones playing on Easy Mode, those who need Mommy CCP to save them (like you) are hardcore.
-then of course more trolling (probably anti-NC trolling) about people "learning to use things". As if it takes time to learn to use JB's or, more likely, your often repeated lie/troll that Razor didn't use armor HAC gangs about a year to a year and a half before PL did. But, of course, this is again just your trolling attempt to change the subject from the fact that you're arguing for how impotent you are and for why you so badly need CCP to save you, so you'd rather troll the NC and act as if you made a point. Because if you're impotent and need CCP to save you, then the people who are actually willing to adapt to the game must be unwilling to learn to do anything else. Not like you, who are not only unable and unwilling to learn to do anything, but you need Mommy CCP to save you and set your game on Easy Mode (which is really hard-****ing-core)
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Lady Parity
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 11:33:00 -
[62]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
A Basi with one local ECCM and two remotes on it has a sensor strength of 153, not 269. But of course his "all level V" should actually read "all level V - Modified" because he's got a full set of high grade Talon implants in there, for, IIRC, about half a billion ISK.
Considering how cheap and useful those sets are I would be surprised to see a logi pilot without one, unless he is going for a different strategy.
With all the macro ratting in the north, you would think you could afford a few implants to make your hull tanked ravens rat more efficiently :P
BFF
|
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 11:42:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Minigin on 03/11/2010 11:46:19
i heard in eve you arnt allowed to use implants... fyi 500m to be unjammable is relatively cheep, especially if you play no risk style.
dont pretend for a second you didnt run straight off to eft to see how i was doing that just as i expected you to.
and just as i expected you to you ran back sceaming how i was "caught out" by you... the point of that link was to show how ineffective "ewar" can be against logis. 150 strenght isnt exactly weaksauce... so i am perfectly sound to have said "yah ok if you know how to play this game you know why jams wont work against anyone running a proper logi gang"
instead i get idiots saying things like "i fly a scorpion... i can jam 5 logis"
then you whiteknighting them saying "its ok you are easily jammable(completely ridiculous) if you dont use implants!"
edit: and exactly like the guy above me just said... if you arnt using implants you should be...
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 11:42:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Lady Parity
Considering how cheap and useful those sets are,I would be surprised to see a logi pilot without one
Mmm hmmmmm.
This from the same person who thinks that JB's are "risk free" for freighters jumping through them.
Oddly enough, you also somehow missed the fact that those implants were on Mini's ship fitting although he deliberately tried to hide that fact.
But of course you also included some trolling-the-NC in your post.
If there's anything that helps support an argument, it's some trolling.
Ayup.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 12:14:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Minigin on 03/11/2010 12:17:01
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8623/ifiwasascorp.png
lets ignore that this is not a viable fit... how many jammers do you need to jam a logi pilot who knows what he is doing?
lets assume you are using the right racial jam type...
two projectors without implants but with an eos you have like 170 strength in a bassy(i wont even bother doing it with the implants for you because it will just look ridiculous). that means to jam 50% of the time you would need about 8 of the right racial jams on the logi.
now IF you have run with the ALL JAMMER NO TANK SCORPION OF DOOM! then maybe you will be able to jam (for half the time...) one bassy.
pretty good counter... nice one guys.
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 12:23:00 -
[66]
Surprise, Mini is again trying to argue for why he's unable to do things in EVE and why CCP needs to save him. Meanwhile those of us who actually fly logis (with or without spending .5 bil per jump clone) know that even an enemy that puts a lot of EC-600's on a logi wing can count on enough jams to make things significantly tricky for them, to say nothing of a dozen scorps too.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 12:26:00 -
[67]
no im not saying i have trouble dealing with logis... im saying you do... and im saying its going to make the game boring.
you just said "a scorpion wing can mess with logis easy" but i just showed you why thats not the case... so you changed your argument to "ok not scorpions! ECM DRONES!". ill let you figure out why ecm drones dont work well on your own. rather than me having to friggin babysit you all through very simple tactics we have been using for years.
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
Natasha Hec
Gallente
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 12:29:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Minigin
Edited by: Minigin on 03/11/2010 12:17:01
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8623/ifiwasascorp.png
lets ignore that this is not a viable fit... how many jammers do you need to jam a logi pilot who knows what he is doing?
lets assume you are using the right racial jam type...
two projectors without implants but with an eos you have like 170 strength in a bassy(i wont even bother doing it with the implants for you because it will just look ridiculous). that means to jam 50% of the time you would need about 8 of the right racial jams on the logi.
now IF you have run with the ALL JAMMER NO TANK SCORPION OF DOOM! then maybe you will be able to jam (for half the time...) one bassy.
pretty good counter... nice one guys.
Which ships do the eccm projectors get fitted too? I havent seen this tactic used and i cant imagine it being particularly viable in an ahax gang (i could be wrong there)
|
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 12:32:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Natasha Hec
Originally by: Minigin
Edited by: Minigin on 03/11/2010 12:17:01
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8623/ifiwasascorp.png
lets ignore that this is not a viable fit... how many jammers do you need to jam a logi pilot who knows what he is doing?
lets assume you are using the right racial jam type...
two projectors without implants but with an eos you have like 170 strength in a bassy(i wont even bother doing it with the implants for you because it will just look ridiculous). that means to jam 50% of the time you would need about 8 of the right racial jams on the logi.
now IF you have run with the ALL JAMMER NO TANK SCORPION OF DOOM! then maybe you will be able to jam (for half the time...) one bassy.
pretty good counter... nice one guys.
Which ships do the eccm projectors get fitted too? I havent seen this tactic used and i cant imagine it being particularly viable in an ahax gang (i could be wrong there)
what ships cant you fit them to? the hardest gang to run them in is a shield gang because you need the mids to tank and tackle also, but even there we have extremely strong setups that involve a lot of projected ecm.
and this is what worrys me about this game, im being shouted down by people who are using the setups incorrectly or at half their potential. just wait till people figure out how bad they have been up until now.
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 12:49:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Natasha Hec
Which ships do the eccm projectors get fitted too? I havent seen this tactic used and i cant imagine it being particularly viable in an ahax gang (i could be wrong there)
They're quite effective in AHAX gangs (ignore Mini's trolling about how other people fit ships, he likes lying about that). In a standard gang you want to have at least two or three Zealots (ideally) that each have one remote ECCM on a guardian buddy who they have watchlisted. It helps boost sensor strength but, of course, as it's percentage based drones, scorps, etc... all can pose problems to a logi chain, especially when coupled with secondary effects like neuts, damps, painters, etc...
Originally by: Mini then
the weight of logistics ships pretty much get rid of any of this. wether it be small gang or large. further the counters are relatively outlandish, and are difficult - almost impossible to pull off against a gang that isnt consisted entirely of people who have no idea whats going on.
Originally by: Mini now
im not saying i have trouble dealing with logis
Were you lying then, or are you lying now?
As for your troll that you haven't been whining about how you can't deal with logis but really it's other people (who've spent many posts trying to tell you how you can deal with logis) who can't deal with logis... okay.
I guess it's that kind of tard logic that you keep using to troll.
Originally by: Mini being ignorant, also, trolling
you just said "a scorpion wing can mess with logis easy" but i just showed you why thats not the case
No, you didn't. You understand less about math than you do about logic.
And that's saying something.
Also, you're (yet again) lying in order to troll. That's (yet another) thing that nobody ever said, anywhere, that you're making up. Go figure.
Originally by: Mini being militantly ignorant
... so you changed your argument to "ok not scorpions! ECM DRONES!".
You're lying about that too, and of course you're still sucking at math.
Your general ignorance about EVE and total lack of knowledge about how to play is, again, hilarious as well.
Originally by: Mini trolling, again, and not even remembering his previous lies
very simple tactics we have been using for years.
Yep, liars have to have very good memories because evidently you can't even keep track of your lies. Which is it, there are very simple tactics that you've been using for years, so there's absolutely no reason for you to be whining about how Mommy CCP needs to save you and give you Easy Mode? Or your original claim that it's almost impossible to counter logis so Mommy CCP needs to save you and give you Easy Mode?
See, this is why not lying is much better than lying.
Try it out, you might even like debating honestly.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Furb Killer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 12:59:00 -
[71]
You can also use more against logis than ECM, with damps it takes longer to lock the target which might be just enough to kill him before reps kick in.
Also it is pretty funny you choose the basi for your ECM chance calculation, quickly followed by the remark that it might not be too viable in shield based gangs. Where exactly were you planning to use the basi? Or has it something to do with basi having highest sensor strength? (Too lazy to actually check, but since it is caldari it is a reasonable guess).
Anyway logistics make fights longer. Longer fights are more enjoyable, spending 30 minutes before seeing the opponents, hoping you actually get a fight while most times one side just wont engage, and then the fight being over in 10 seconds because you got primaried first is no fun. Shooting on each other for a long time is way more fun.
|
Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 13:02:00 -
[72]
No. Purely because you posted in green. No idea what your idea was.
Suggestion: Remove the "new topic" button from everywhere apart from the list of topics section within a subforum.
That'd save those with chronic hand/eye coordination some face. |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 13:04:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Or has it something to do with basi having highest sensor strength?
Yep, just like his 'forgetting to mention' and then later 'hah hah really I was trolling you' bit about putting in .5 bil worth of implants.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Natasha Hec
Gallente
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 13:45:00 -
[74]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Originally by: Natasha Hec
Which ships do the eccm projectors get fitted too? I havent seen this tactic used and i cant imagine it being particularly viable in an ahax gang (i could be wrong there)
They're quite effective in AHAX gangs (ignore Mini's trolling about how other people fit ships, he likes lying about that). In a standard gang you want to have at least two or three Zealots (ideally) that each have one remote ECCM on a guardian buddy who they have watchlisted. It helps boost sensor strength but, of course, as it's percentage based drones, scorps, etc... all can pose problems to a logi chain, especially when coupled with secondary effects like neuts, damps, painters, etc...
Ah never heard of them being used like that, interesting idea.
|
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 14:03:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Minigin on 03/11/2010 14:10:34
no i chose the bassy because thats the one i have used most(and had the fit ready for on eft). and i said it was "less viable" the bassy is still amazing and you can run friggin insane gangs with them.
you can still get a guardian to 230-250 sensor strength with relative ease. the difference between the two is really negligable. - and in day to day use it is more practical to have the guards with higher strength than bassys (simply because of my already stated argument that in armor gangs you use your mids for a lot less).
also i dont see why you cant use implants... i just said "even assuming you are all bad at the game and dont use the implants... you still get remarkably high strength"
yes one of my counters involves sensor damps but its not nearly as effective as you might think. there are much better counters, the problem is you wont see them very often for various reasons.
besides lets face it... if you had the choice of flying somewhere with 50 logistics of 50 scorpions supporting you... what would you rather (assuming of course you would fight even or greater numbers).
im just warning you that once people get their acts together and you start seeing 100 vs 100 heavy logi gangs, this game is going to get pretty boring. and that people are having one of the very good counters (eg. missile volley) removed so they can cycle their reps in time... (rather than broadcasting when things start redboxing) leeds me to to believe that you guys dont actually want counters for logis to exist... you like them the way they are because you dont die as much as you used to...
thus i can see when someone stands up and says "yo this is gonna get friggin ridiculous and boring soon" you all want to continue printing money in the short run... because hey... youve figured out how(or so you think).
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 14:12:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Minigin on 03/11/2010 14:14:42
all im saying at this point is that a stacking penalty should be looked into...
theres stacking penalties for practically everything else...
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 14:16:00 -
[77]
Caught lying and saying both that it's virtually impossible for him to deal with logis, and it's trivially easy for him to deal with logis, and really he has no problem dealing with logis but the folks who have problems dealing with them are all the people who've been trying to tell him how he could deal with logis while he's been saying he can't do it... Mini tries to change the subject and keep trolling.
Unexpected. And novel!
Originally by: Aristotle he aint
leeds me to to believe that you guys dont actually want counters for logis to exist
You draw conclusions like a spastic five year old on pixy sticks draws Starry Night with an Etch-a-sketch.
Originally by: they see me trollin', they hatin'
(and had the fit ready for on eft)
The fit that you had ready with no mods other than an ECCM and the edited "all V's - Modified" that you tried to sneak in as a normal one and which you already admitted was part of your plan to try trolling people?
Yah... good call there.
Originally by: lying some more
i just said "even assuming you are all bad at the game and dont use the implants
You're even going to lie about what you, yourself, have and haven't said. Amazing.
Of course, again, you're the one who uses your claims that you're horrible at EVE to claim that you need Mommy CCP to save you and give you Easy Mode. Also, loltroll, anybody who can't spend .5 bil per jump clone is bad at EVE now.
Originally by: The Prophet Of Doom. Also, Gloom
im just warning you that once people get their acts together and you start seeing 100 vs 100 heavy logi gangs, this game is going to get pretty boring.
Zo noez!!!
Also, as the Emperor of Fun, you can tell people when they are and are not having fun, even if they (annoyingly) think they know better.
Peasants.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 14:21:00 -
[78]
if you were making an argument i could at least argue back. this is just a bunch of angry "holier than though" crap...
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 14:32:00 -
[79]
Originally by: minitroll
i could at least argue back.
Judging from your performance? No. No you can't.
You do try to troll back, however.
Originally by: minitroll
this is just a bunch of angry "holier than though" crap
Indeed, your posts are a bunch of holier than thou (idiot) crap.
You've pretended that anybody without .5 bil to blow on each jump clone is "bad at EVE".
You've pretended that you know, better than the people themselves, what they will find to be fun and what they won't.
You've pretended that you know, with certainty, what the future holds and that it's doom and gloom if people do not listen to your prophecy... not that you can even make up your mind about what the hell you're saying, as you lie constantly and when caught in your lies, you try to change the subject. Figured out yet, speaking of you lying constantly, how logis are both trivially easy for you to counter and also virtually impossible for you to counter?
Anyways, it's hilarious to see Minitroll: Prophet of 1337 PvP And Emperor of Fun If You Know What's Good For You complain about someone being "holier than thou".
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 14:38:00 -
[80]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Originally by: minitroll
i could at least argue back.
Judging from your performance? No. No you can't.
You do try to troll back, however.
Originally by: minitroll
this is just a bunch of angry "holier than though" crap
Indeed, your posts are a bunch of holier than thou (idiot) crap.
You've pretended that anybody without .5 bil to blow on each jump clone is "bad at EVE".
You've pretended that you know, better than the people themselves, what they will find to be fun and what they won't.
You've pretended that you know, with certainty, what the future holds and that it's doom and gloom if people do not listen to your prophecy... not that you can even make up your mind about what the hell you're saying, as you lie constantly and when caught in your lies, you try to change the subject. Figured out yet, speaking of you lying constantly, how logis are both trivially easy for you to counter and also virtually impossible for you to counter?
Anyways, it's hilarious to see Minitroll: Prophet of 1337 PvP And Emperor of Fun If You Know What's Good For You complain about someone being "holier than thou".
so far you have said the following:
.5b is a lot.
rzr didnt steal the idea of armor hacs off anyone
scorpions can mess with logistics
ecm drones can mess with logistics
your limited understanding of this game is only eclipsed by your limited understanding of how to argue a point. you actually need to have one, you cant just say "my counter argument is that you are a liar and a troll".
now a perfectly valid argument for you to have used (which you didnt) is something like "after a certain number you can just get enough dps on the field where no matter how many logis there are you can volley down people."
now im sure this is true and a good argument, however i would rather not see the effective counter to a mechanic be "bring so many that there is no chance they can rep in time" because again that promotes a type of play which imo shouldnt be promoted.
its funny because now im actually arguing your side for you =S as well as presenting my case.
feel free to continue calling me a liar and ignoring valid points at your leasure.
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 14:56:00 -
[81]
By the way, have you figured out yet if you were lying and trolling when you claimed that it was almost impossible to counter enemy logis, or lying and trolling when you claimed that it was trivially easy to counter enemy logis and you'd been doing it for years?
Just curious which story you're going to try to stick to.
Originally by: minitroll
rzr didnt steal the idea of armor hacs off anyone
Thank you for reminding me that you are a committed and relentless liar.
Going to retract your lie yet about how RZR didn't use armor HAC gangs roughly a year to a year and a half before PL, led and organized by RZR FC Ernest Grafenberg?
Or do you just like lying?
Originally by: minitroll
.5b is a lot.
Value is relative, genius. And I'll point out that you're lying, again, as your demand was that anybody flying a logi should have .5 bil worth of implants in that clone, which means every single jump clone that might see use in a logi.
Originally by: minitroll
scorpions can mess with logistics
ecm drones can mess with logistics
Both are true. You not having a clue how to play the game doesn't invalidate, ya know, facts. Or math. Or logic.
Fancy that.
Originally by: minitroll
you cant just say "my counter argument is that you are a liar and a troll".
Of course, you're lying (and trolling) by claiming that I've ever done that. Go figure. Every actual argument you've advanced has been dealt with. Every, single, one. Of course, I've also noted that you are both a liar and a troll, as proven by your own posts (including your own admission in this thread that you were trolling).
Originally by: minitroll
now a perfectly valid argument for you to have used (which you didnt) is something like "after a certain number you can just get enough dps on the field where no matter how many logis there are you can volley down people."
Liars needs to have good memories, yours sucks.
Trolls need to make sure that they haven't already trolled the same point that they're now claiming is a good one.
Originally by: me
Or another where they were hugely alpha-heavy, and our logi chain simply couldn't keep up with the incoming alpha and by the time someone broadcast and we got them locked up and got a rep cycle on them, they were probably dead.
failtroll.
Originally by: minitroll
its funny because now im actually arguing your side for you =S as well as presenting my case.
Being that you're not presenting your case since you evidently can't decide how you're going to troll (you still can't figure out if you're going with the story that it's nearly impossible or trivially easy for you to counter logis), you're also certainly not arguing anybody else's side.
The **** you just pulled, actually, is known is the strawman fallacy. Pretty textbook, actually, in that you set up an argument that nobody was using and then knocked it down for (bogus) rhetorical effect. But I guess when you're a troll who's pretending to have some sort of cognitive damage, that goes with the territory.
Originally by: minitroll
feel free to continue calling me a liar and ignoring valid points at your leasure.
Again the same trolling tactic of yours. You lie and claim that I have ignored a single valid point and then preemptively whine about how you'll be caught at lying. Just like you lie constantly and then preemptively whine that someone might point that fact out. Speaking of which, figured out yet whether or not it's trivially easy or virtually impossible for you to counter enemy logis? Just want to be clear as to which claim you're (now) saying was a lie and which you're (now) saying is what you really meant to say.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:07:00 -
[82]
what exactly are your "valid points" in this thread?
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:16:00 -
[83]
Ahhh, falling back on that trolling tactic. Now you'll ask (again) to see rebuttals to all your arguments (again) and then you'll change the subject (again) while demanding that people respond to your arguments (again) and when it's pointed out (again) that they have you'll demand (again) to see rebuttals to all your arguments. A-****ing-gain.
All this after you already admitted to trolling when you stated that you posted a deceptive EFT screenshot with the express purpose in mind of trolling people with it and baiting them into certain reactions.
You're an awful troll, mini. You can't blatantly troll, let alone come out and admit to trolling, and then (again) engage in the same trolling patterns and expect anybody to feed you. It just won't happen.
You at least have to vary up your trolling buddy.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:26:00 -
[84]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Ahhh, falling back on that trolling tactic. Now you'll ask (again) to see rebuttals to all your arguments (again) and then you'll change the subject (again) while demanding that people respond to your arguments (again) and when it's pointed out (again) that they have you'll demand (again) to see rebuttals to all your arguments. A-****ing-gain.
All this after you already admitted to trolling when you stated that you posted a deceptive EFT screenshot with the express purpose in mind of trolling people with it and baiting them into certain reactions.
You're an awful troll, mini. You can't blatantly troll, let alone come out and admit to trolling, and then (again) engage in the same trolling patterns and expect anybody to feed you. It just won't happen.
You at least have to vary up your trolling buddy.
im sorry where did i "admit to trolling"? is this like one of those I NEVER SAID THAT QUOTE YOU SAID I SAID things?
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:40:00 -
[85]
Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 03/11/2010 15:42:22
First: have you figured out if you were lying when you claimed that it's almost impossible for you to deal with enemy logis or lying when you claimed that it's trivially easy for you to deal with enemy logis and you've been doing it for years?
Is that like one of those "you're lying in order to troll people, and then you try to change the subject when you're caught?", things?
Oh, and honestly, where did you admit to trolling? Seriously?
Probably the part where you admitted that you used a doctored EFT "screenshot" where you just-so-happened to include a full set of high grade faction implants while editing the character not to read "modified", and admitted that you did so in order to troll someone into "[running] straight off to eft to see how i was doing that" and trolling them to try to make them "[run] back sceaming how i was "caught out" by you."
And as opposed to the fictional quotes of mine you keep making up, you actually said that. (Speaking of which found any quote yet for me saying that Razor invented AHAX?) Speaking of which, again, retracted your lie yet that RZR copied the concept off of PL, somehow going back in time to use it first somehow?
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:57:00 -
[86]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 03/11/2010 15:42:22
First: have you figured out if you were lying when you claimed that it's almost impossible for you to deal with enemy logis or lying when you claimed that it's trivially easy for you to deal with enemy logis and you've been doing it for years?
Is that like one of those "you're lying in order to troll people, and then you try to change the subject when you're caught?", things?
Oh, and honestly, where did you admit to trolling? Seriously?
Probably the part where you admitted that you used a doctored EFT "screenshot" where you just-so-happened to include a full set of high grade faction implants while editing the character not to read "modified", and admitted that you did so in order to troll someone into "[running] straight off to eft to see how i was doing that" and trolling them to try to make them "[run] back sceaming how i was "caught out" by you."
And as opposed to the fictional quotes of mine you keep making up, you actually said that. (Speaking of which found any quote yet for me saying that Razor invented AHAX?) Speaking of which, again, retracted your lie yet that RZR copied the concept off of PL, somehow going back in time to use it first somehow?
the character was not modified nor was the screenshot doctored... theres an implants tab here...
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/984/howtouseeft.png
editing your character every time you want to see what a setup is like with different implants is the kind of thing i would expect of you. only you would think this is a "sick call out youve been totaly owned" type thing =S
and all the while you still ignore that you dont have valid points... you have excuses for why you dont need to tell us what those points are.
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
GeeShizzle McCloud
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 16:12:00 -
[87]
reading all 3 pages of this proposal was a waste of 15 mins of my time... and i want those minutes back minigun.
i think ive figured out wtf is going on in this thread...
Originally by: Minigin
if you are an fc (as i was) and you have a choice to order a bunch of people to join your gang in snipers or logistics..
i think sum1s a little ragey that they were pulled from the FC list. bt the again if i was joining a fleet and told i could either snipe or be logi... id probably have grounds to complain bout the level of intelligent command.
-1 on the request tho... ahh if only!
|
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 16:17:00 -
[88]
lol ok, ill leave this rest and say you guys are right for now.
ill revisit this in a couple of months with a few videos and kb stats.
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 16:27:00 -
[89]
Quote:
First: have you figured out if you were lying when you claimed that it's almost impossible for you to deal with enemy logis or lying when you claimed that it's trivially easy for you to deal with enemy logis and you've been doing it for years?
You seem to have forgotten to answer this. Please do. Describe what your real position is and identify which one you don't believe. Is it that logis are almost impossible to counter or logis are trivially easy to counter and you've been doing so for years?
Quote:
the character was not modified
Yes it was, it had a full set of high grade faction implants. And as you already stated, you included that with the hope of provoking me into a response.
Quote:
... theres an implants tab here...
Which you don't have open on the image you used. To say nothing of how you admitted that you were using the image to troll for a reaction and are, again, trying to change the subject. This time to a totally different screenshot.
Quote:
and all the while you still ignore that you dont have valid points
You could try addressing and trying to rebut them, rather than repeatedly pretending that they don't exist. I've at least directly addressed and eviscerated each and every single one of your points, but you still can't and won't even admit that my arguments exist let alone honestly discuss them.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 16:39:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Minigin on 03/11/2010 16:42:59
at which point you would have raged about the projected effects bar was not being shown... im kind of tired of playing childish games with you where i need to take you step by step through pretty easily grasped arguments. otherwise im depicted as a liar and a troll.
ps. this just came to me:
if you hate trolls so much... and you love your bffs so much... widotgoonstest. are you confused?
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 17:04:00 -
[91]
First: have you figured out if you were lying when you claimed that it's almost impossible for you to deal with enemy logis or lying when you claimed that it's trivially easy for you to deal with enemy logis and you've been doing it for years?
You seem to have forgotten to answer this. Please do. Describe what your real position is and identify which one you don't believe. Is it that logis are almost impossible to counter or logis are trivially easy to counter and you've been doing so for years?
You have been asked this six or seven times, I'd guess. You have answered zero times. Amidst claiming that things which were posted don't exist and claiming that things that don't exist were posted, it would be nice if you'd identify which wildly divergent position you actually believe in (and, ideally, identify why you advanced an argument which you don't and/or didn't actually support).
Originally by: Minigin
at which point you would have
Again, I will point out that you already admitted that you deliberately used the image in order to troll, wanting it to provoke a certain reaction. And, of course, you could have identified the fact that you were using half a billion ISK in high grade faction implants, or that you were using projected ECCM if that wasn't shown. But, instead, as you've already admitted, you were trolling and used that screenshot deliberately to provoke a response. Which would have, of course, been impossible if you'd simply included all relevant facts. But of course you didn't include those facts because, as you've admitted, you were planning on using the image to troll.
Quote:
otherwise im depicted as a liar and a troll.
See the top of this post. It's underlined for you.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 17:45:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Minigin on 03/11/2010 17:52:53
i think bad logi gangs are very easy to counter. i think good logi gangs with good fcs are also counterable, but the counters to them are pretty hard to pull off and often rely on their fc not suspecting you of doing something fishy.
i wasnt ignoring you because i didnt have an answer, i was ignoring you because you have no idea what you are talking about.
again i need to point out that i dont think you seem to understand very much of my rhetoric. you might be misinterpretting it for trolling. in fact... i think thats definatly what you are doing.
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 18:33:00 -
[93]
Nope, sorry, I want you to clarify not try to evade. Were you lying when you said
Quote:
the weight of logistics ships pretty much get rid of any of this. wether it be small gang or large. further the counters are relatively outlandish, and are difficult - almost impossible to pull off against a gang that isnt consisted entirely of people who have no idea whats going on.
or were you lying when you said:
Quote:
im not saying i have trouble dealing with logis
Both can not be true and so one is, obviously, a lie. Which is it? It's nearly impossible for you to counter a gang that isn't making serious mistakes, or you simply do not have trouble dealing with logis. Only one can be true, and one must be a lie. Which?
Quote:
i was ignoring you because you have no idea what you are talking about.
Mmm hmmm. Two quotes, one is obviously a lie, both are your words, you've ignored them for about half a dozen times and now you're trying to obfuscate and claiming that it's really only about "bad gangs" when you said both that you have no trouble dealing with only bad gangs but the rest are almost impossible to counter and that you have no trouble dealing with any logis at all.
Quote:
again i need to point out that i dont think you seem to understand very much of my rhetoric.
Mmmmm hmmmm. I recognize that you're saying things, regardless of whether or not they're actually true, and using them to prop up an argument that is unsupportable and then when caught on the facts, you claim that your, shall we say 'innocent factual errors' are simply "rhetoric".
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 19:12:00 -
[94]
... but im not having trouble dealing with logis... because of two reasons one as ive already said most people are still learning how to use them, that you have to run off to eft to figure out that scorpions are crap against big logi gangs shows that...
the second is that critical mass hasnt been reached yet imo. can see this happening pretty soon tbh.
notice how this leaves room to be more than able to deal with logis (as you morons are currently flying them) but leaves me wondering what will happen when people finaly catch on?
the most concerning thing isnt even that no counter will be found im sure something will come up, the real concern is that people will end up meeting frequently with other logi gangs and neither gang will be capable of inflicting any real damage to the other...
rkn that could be pretty friggin boring.
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color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
|
CCP Adida
C C P
C C P Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 19:46:00 -
[95]
Trolling comments removed. Please keep this on topic. Discussion of the proposal is OK if you have an issue with someone's posting habits please click on the report button.
Adida
Community Rep
CCP Hf, EVE Online
|
|
captain foivos
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 20:11:00 -
[96]
Originally by: CCP Adida
Trolling comments removed. Please keep this on topic. Discussion of the proposal is OK if you have an issue with someone's posting habits please click on the report button.
Can I report someone for posting in all green? 
|
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 23:14:00 -
[97]
Nope mini, your quotes have been posted.
-Both that you have easy logi counters that you've been using for years and it's easy to counter them (with none of your new nonsense about how unlike every other thing in the entire game, somenhow your easy counters don't scale due to "critical mass"
-And how it's nearly impossible to deal with logistic ships (only later coupled with your epeen nonsense about how everybody other than you sucks at EVE and only you understand how to fly logis).
But that's okay. You've made two wildly divergent claims if you thought it helped your argument, and you have no way to reconcile your two diametrically opposed statements, so you'd rather spin it in some way or another.
Quote:
you have to run off to eft to figure out that scorpions are crap against big logi gangs shows that...
Ahhh, so that's why you were trolling on that point, you thought it would be a "gotcha!" later. Of course, it isn't.
No, people are not just learning how to use logis, most of us have been using them for years. (Oh, I know, other people aren't as awesome as you and blah blah blah). And, of course, as pointed out you simply don't understand basic math. Scorpions are not "crap" against logis, by any stretch of the imagination. Having been in logi wings with sensor strength in the mid 150's and still being jammed out with fair frequency, I know that you are using Theorycrafting to EFT Warrior your way out of a situation that you have no actual understanding of.
Based on real first hand experience where Scorps (and EC drones) have provided significant annoyance to a logi chain, and your EFT Warrior stance, I'm going to go with reality. Also, I'm able to deal with math and it doesn't baffle me that even a three percent chance iterated several time a cycle and cycling several times a minute will most likely lead to several hits over the course of several minutes. But math probably likes the NC, so you can ignore it.
I know, surprising!
Quote:
the second is that critical mass hasnt been reached yet imo. can see this happening pretty soon tbh.
Ah, the same sort of Doom and Gloom Psychic Prediction nonsense that fortune tellers use. Nothing firm or concrete or even specific but at an unspecified time and unspecified critical mass will develop in an unspecified way and it will result in unspecified horrible consequence through an unspecified mechanic but it will happen pretty soon unless you pay them, or uncritically believe what you say.
Funny that everybody who's tried to educate you on ways you can counter logis understands that the counters scale and there is no mythic 'critical mass'. That is, those who were trying to educate you while you were still arguing that it was virtually impossible before you decided that, really, all along you were arguing that it was trivially easy but only you were cool enough to do to do it right before you decided that, really, all along you were arguing that it's only because you hate the NC that you can easily counter logis but once a mythical 'critical mass' is reached the sky will fall and Armageddon will occur.
Also disco will be popular again.
Quote:
the real concern is that people will end up meeting frequently with other logi gangs and neither gang will be capable of inflicting any real damage to the other...
Except in reality that's already happened and your nonsense turned out to be false.
Oh wait oh wait, I know, it's because nobody has as awesome an epeen and everybody but you sucks and blah blah blah and EFT beats what actually happens in game.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.04 03:00:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Minigin on 04/11/2010 03:06:35
one vaga is good against one drake. 200 vagas are good against 200 drakes.
i guess your right... counters do scale well...
AND NO!!! YOUR QUOTES HAVE BEEN SAID! YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO CLARIFY THEM! HA! I AM FINNAGAIN ZERO I DECIDE WHAT YOU SAID NOT YOU! MUHAHAHAHAAHA
you are pretty bad. just saying.
actually thats a good one... im going to bio that too... Finnagain Zero > your quotes have been posted.
ps. the fact that you find it hard to fly one logi ship in a big logi gang reflects on nothing and no one but you and the people you fly with.
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.04 07:25:00 -
[99]
In other words, you have no actual "counter" to point out (after arguing for post after post as to how it was almost impossible for you to counter logis before you decided that really you could but it was other people who couldn't), you cannot propose an actual mechanic by which this counter no longer scales, but you can type in all caps. Go figure.
And then of course you're reminding folks about how you've fabricated several quotes and claimed that other people made them, and pointing out that after you were caught lying and claiming both that it was almost impossible as well as trivially easy for you to counter logis... you've decided to "bio" that too.
The fact that your quotes were posted is relevant as you you posted (at least) one obvious lie out of two wildly contradictory statements. Yes, you then went on to try to claim that you hadn't said what you said, but you meant somethign totally different that just happened to be what you didn't actually say. And you still haven't addressed which time you were lying, and why you felt the need to lie.
The funny thing, amidst your epic-all-caps-freakout-text is that you didn't feel the need to "clarify" anything for post after post while you were arguing either the lie that it's almost impossible to counter logis or the lie that it's trivially easy and you've been doing it for years (for post after post while you were trolling people), but as soon as it was pointed out that both can't be true and one had to be a lie, all of a sudden then you felt the need to 'clarify'. And when called on that clarification, you babble about drakes and vagas and not the counter to logis that (you swear!) is easy and simple and you've been using for years but nobody else can cuz of how 1337 your are.
Even funnier in your epic-all-caps-freakout-text is that you're lying and claiming that anybody else is trying to claim what it is you said when, after your, your quotes have been posted. And you are trying to deny, spin, or ignore them. When your own words are in a conspiracy against you and someone posting what you yourself have said is somehow "deciding what you said, and not you", well... it's time to stop the nonsense and just address which of your claims was a lie, and why you were lying.
Most likely, however, they were probably both lies to a certain degree. The first, that it was nearly impossible to counter logis in the present, not in some mythic 'post-scalable-counter' future that you later lied and said you were talking about, was both to bolster the claim that logis need to be possibly removed from the game and that you're awesome but that your enemies suck and aren't as cool as you. Along the same lines, your later lie about how it's trivially easy for you to counter logis (after you were arguing for most of the thread that no such thing was true) was because you wanted to present yourself as 1337 some more and get the good ol' epeen going while you were alleging that all the people who'd been trying to educate you on how to deal with logis while you were arguing for why you couldn't possible? Well, they were the ones who couldn't deal with them, not you, because you're awesome.
Which is to say, much more likely than not you can't identify only one quote which is a lie, and identify why you were lying about it, because both contain dishonesty and were used for the purpose of your regaling everybody with how awesome you are and how not-awesome everybody else is.
Speaking of you lying:
the fact that you find it hard to fly one logi ship in a big logi gang reflects on
Let me finish that sentence for you, shall I?
... reflects on the fact that mini is lying, again, and there is no such "fact" because mini made is up and is a liar, and nobody ever said that anybody found it hard to fly a logi ship in any gang, big or small, but a lie serves mini's purpose far better than an honest discussion of the issue.
Glad I could help.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.04 09:17:00 -
[100]
im not going to give you counters you havnt thought of... if you are bad at this game its not my problem.
in fact i think you have mentioned almost every "counter" in this thread except the ones that work (somewhat) against good logi gangs. so go back and by deduction work out what they are for yourself.
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.04 09:48:00 -
[101]
Thought so, you're just trolling.
You spent half the thread trolling by arguing that there are no counters and you can't counter logi gangs and CCP needs to alter the game mechanics to save you. Then you spent the other half trolling that you have lots of easy counters that totally work, you just can't say what any of them are. And, naturally, if you do have easy counters that work then the very premise of your own thread is refuted.
But naturally the super seeekrit counters (that really exist, honest!) that you just can't tell anybody also have some sort of undefined, unspecified mechanics (that really exist, honest!) that prevent scaling.
And you argument, no matter what lie you use, that it's almost impossible to counter logis or it's super easy, ends up being used for you to claim that you're 1337 and everybody else is "bad". You've gone as far as to lie, hilariously, that while many people have tried to explain to you how to deal with logis, both from the perspective of flying logis extensively and flying against logis extensively, that it was really other people who were saying that they were unable to deal with logis but that you knew how.
What luck, the counters that you claim you know are secret and you can't tell anybody. But that proves how leet you are and how bad everybody else is. Your claim that you couldn't counter logis even while everybody else was trying to tell you how you could, that too just showed how leet you are and how bad they are.
It's almost like no matter what position you invent, no matter which of your own statements you have to contradict with obvious dishonesty, the argument is always about how awesome you are and how bad anybody is who disagrees with you.
Almost like it's deliberately set up to troll people.
And by almost, I mean exactly.
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
Minigin
eXceed Inc.
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.11.04 09:54:00 -
[102]
mmmm good point youve totaly convinsed me that logi gangs of 50+ vs logi gangs of 50+ will be lots of fun. excellent job.
.
color poastar.
Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Plague Black > I will keep pummeling your redneck posts with my literacy |
FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.11.04 10:05:00 -
[103]
What a surprise, when caught lying and trolling you're trying to change the subject. Again.
Totally unexpected!
------------------------------------------------
Hohohoho, Mister
Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! |
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