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[PROPOSAL] Logistic Ships

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Minigin Trinity Corp WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.10.26 10:54:00 - [1] in the old days these ships were underused thus didnt cause any problem for this game. now days it is common to see 20-30 logistic ships in the same gang. lots of the time you end up with 2 gangs both having upwards of 20 logistics ships. this has made pvp extremely boring and relatively unrisky compared to what it used to be. (i imagine missions also?) i propose one of a few things: 1. logistics can no longer rep one another (only other non-logistic class ships) 2. introduction of a new t2 bs (logistics) make it relatively expencive but able to fit large reps. then draw back the bonuses to powergrid for the logistics ships. - medium reps still give plenty of reps though so this needs more thought. (you can even leave logi t3s as they are considering their price) 3. remove them from the game... . THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER! Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Luda Zaba	Posted - 2010.10.26 19:30:00 - [2] no. you suck
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.10.26 19:35:00 - [3] Mr. Minigin, We, the other players of Eve, would like to thank you for taking the time to formulate your ideas into a post and present them to us. Regrettably, we are unable to accept your idea at the present time because, frankly, we enjoy not getting blown up constantly. However, I can assure you that, should our position on that change, we will gladly reconsider your proposal. Yours in fellowship, --Vel
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.10.26 19:40:00 - [4] Originally by: Luda Zaba no. you suck Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Don Pellegrino Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.10.26 20:40:00 - [5] Sorry, but this proposal is bad.
Yaay Fusion Enterprises Ltd	Posted - 2010.10.26 20:44:00 - [6] In fairness, Most fights these days are a simple who has more logistics equation. It's not the endgame of pvp, but it plays a huge role in pvp. I think the problem stems more from bombers and the lack of a possible long range platform for BS and the drake issue more than anything else though. If CCP were to fix probing, fix drakes, and fix the ability of bombers to easily **** long range setups more easily than CR setups, I think the logistics issue would go away. DD changes Docking PVP games
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.10.26 22:03:00 - [7] Originally by: Yaay Edited by: Yaay on 26/10/2010 20:47:32 In fairness, Most fights these days are a simple who has more logistics equation. It's not the endgame of pvp, but it plays a huge role in pvp. I think the problem stems more from bombers and the lack of a possible long range platform for BS and the drake issue more than anything else though. If CCP were to fix probing, fix drakes, and fix the ability of bombers to easily ** long range setups more easily than CR setups, I think the logistics issue would go away. or people could stop fit LR fleet BS in glass cannon mode? most CR fleet BS survive because they actually fit some buffer. and since your drake comment i am quite sure you are just trolling and dont understand . Quote:** I still think Light Dictors bubbles need to be looked at as well. Heavy dictors have an actual defined limitation to their bubble. If the heavy interdictor dies or gets neuted, or get's out ranged, it's bubble becomes useless. Light dictors die and their bubble still projects itself for up to 2 minutes. This makes no sense as it affects warp in's, and the ability of fleets to escape. i think it is rather balanced. they die faster but their bubble can last a bit after they died. hics are harder to kill but their bubble is gone instantly.
Kogh Ayon	Posted - 2010.10.26 22:46:00 - [8] Originally by: Yaay Edited by: Yaay on 26/10/2010 20:47:32 In fairness, Most fights these days are a simple who has more logistics equation. It's not the endgame of pvp, but it plays a huge role in pvp. I think the problem stems more from bombers and the lack of a possible long range platform for BS and the drake issue more than anything else though. If CCP were to fix probing, fix drakes, and fix the ability of bombers to easily **** long range setups more easily than CR setups, I think the logistics issue would go away. I still think Light Dictors bubbles need to be looked at as well. Heavy dictors have an actual defined limitation to their bubble. If the heavy interdictor dies or gets neuted, or get's out ranged, it's bubble becomes useless. Light dictors die and their bubble still projects itself for up to 2 minutes. This makes no sense as it affects warp in's, and the ability of fleets to escape. More strategies! Not more nerfs
Altaica Amur The Elliance	Posted - 2010.10.26 23:26:00 - [9] No For one making use of logistics requires skill and organization, yeah it keeps people alive, that's sorta the point but it has a significant cost and can go horribly wrong. For another logistics lessening the value of DPS heightens the value of alpha balancing it with the much vaunted DPS and allowing for a broader range of strategies. Where before there was no real question weather you preferred to have 40 apocs or 40 Tempests the alpha of the latter enabling it to eliminate portions of the logistics chain in a volley promote a broader mix of strategies to counter logistics.
Crazy KSK	Posted - 2010.10.27 00:47:00 - [10] Edited by: Crazy KSK on 27/10/2010 00:49:53 Originally by: Altaica Amur No For one making use of logistics requires skill and organization, yeah it keeps people alive, that's sorta the point but it has a significant cost and can go horribly wrong. For another logistics lessening the value of DPS heightens the value of alpha balancing it with the much vaunted DPS and allowing for a broader range of strategies. Where before there was no real question weather you preferred to have 40 apocs or 40 Tempests the alpha of the latter enabling it to eliminate portions of the logistics chain in a volley promote a broader mix of strategies to counter logistics. that would lead me to the idea of lowering the cycle time of repers which would lead to more microing for the logi pilot as he now can't just turn his reps on he has to time the cycles and small ships could get alphaed a lot easier shifting logis more into the endgame battleship fleets
Minigin Trinity Corp WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.10.27 02:04:00 - [11] Edited by: Minigin on 27/10/2010 02:16:52 let me be clear on what the issue here is... because people are being naieve in my eyes. the issue is how cost effective logistics are, and the spike in use of them. if you are an fc (as i was) and you have a choice to order a bunch of people to join your gang in snipers or logistics... the likelihood that you would ask them for logistics is growing. eventually we will get to the stage where a)if you are solo pvping - not that you would... but assume you are... you will almost certainly have to bust through logistics to kill anything. b)if you are fighting a gang all it will ever come down to is "how many logistics i have" and wether they are asleep at the keyboard or not. let me reference this to nano-age play. im sure many of you remember the outcry to nerf them because they were "unkillable" the reason this nerf was unjustified in my eyes was that there were easy counters to it, and the actual piloting required and ounce of skill / decision making. the weight of logistics ships pretty much get rid of any of this. wether it be small gang or large. further the counters are relatively outlandish, and are difficult - almost impossible to pull off against a gang that isnt consisted entirely of people who have no idea whats going on. now i understand why people dont want this idea to go through... because you ALL use logistics ships very heavily now. well let me remind you, before they were fotm we were running gangs with dual logis and up when we had the numbers and the results were undeniably awesome. but in all my time flying with them i noticed something, it was much easier than nanostuff, far more cost efficeent, the hardest thing in the entire setup was counting dps and counting tank then factoring in friggin ecm drones (which also deserve a nerf - hi would you like to spend 20k to be INVINCIBLE FOREVER?!?!?!?) so dont get me wrong i get the reluctance to want this change, but you are all going to have to make a choice now, do you want this game to get easier? do you want it to be ALL based on numbers? do you not want to be able to make decisions in your fights that have more influence than just "ill bring a logistics ship". because we are heading there, we are going to get to a stage where fights will get beyond boring and when we get there, there will be no one to blame. because the game is exactly what we wanted it to be. - ps. i actually do kinda like the idea of lowering cycle time on the reps even if they buff the rep amount to compensate a little, just because then it would actually require a bit more decision making but again, its mostly with the force trying to crack logis (which will usually be both groups) but still... i like that it would lead to more decision making . THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER! Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
JcJet Caldari Pretenders Inc Tower of Dark Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.27 04:23:00 - [12] wtf? Some words... EWar, neutralizers, bombs, alpha. make sence? t2 bs with triage module? :) ---
Minigin Trinity Corp WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.10.27 04:40:00 - [13] Originally by: JcJet wtf? Some words... EWar, neutralizers, bombs, alpha. make sence? t2 bs with triage module? :) so tell me... did you work out these perfect counters via your 11 kills and 9 losses? . THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER! Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Kuunkulta	Posted - 2010.10.27 05:24:00 - [14] How does his ammount of losses and kills make his points less valid? Those are good counters, and there are more tactics that can be employed very succesfully. It's not like logis are answer for all, they can be countered, even without altering fleet composition.
Minigin Trinity Corp WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.10.27 05:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Kuunkulta How does his ammount of losses and kills make his points less valid? Those are good counters, and there are more tactics that can be employed very succesfully. It's not like logis are answer for all, they can be countered, even without altering fleet composition. his point isnt less valid... it is just wrong... and he would know this if he had experiance of it. neuts and ewar are virtually useless against logi gangs for reasons so obvious i wont even bother stating. smartbombs are not effective at all because they require your adversary to be remarkably aweful (i mean sure it works... but you cant just rely on your opponents being bad and thus the counter is made) - and perhaps most telling is that he ignored bombs/bombers which have been used somewhat effectively in the past, however again its so easy to not get bombed... the fact that logis have such small sig radius and usualy do well to keep their radial high means that alphaing them isnt nearly as simple as you are claiming... yes it can work and i have employed the use of tps as well as alpha ships to crack logi gangs before, but even with tps alpha ships and even ewar trying to harass it is still far far too easy for the weight of logis to hold their tanks for long enough that they dont lose many before they can retreat or whatever. . THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER! Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
hjgjgfgfgsj	Posted - 2010.10.27 15:53:00 - [16] The idea isn't as badas these people are saying.
worvand	Posted - 2010.10.27 16:27:00 - [17] Edited by: worvand on 27/10/2010 16:29:25 your fixes of the problem are too dramatic and cause more problems like the not letting logistic ships repair each other. the opposing fleet would then target logistic ships first then pick off the rest. i think the problem you brought up is there just your solutions are bad. here are my solutions. i suggest solution 2 over solution 1. my solution one: add a very very small diminishing return for the number of ships reping a single ship. not the number of modules. pros: the logistics would not be as strong and fights would go alittle faster. and having a large ammount of logistic ships would begin to cause less and less effect on the battle cons: the load on the server would increase causing more lag. and logistic ship players and tons of pvp players will whine to ccp my solution one result: not suggested too much lag in pvp right now my solution two: make it so that having a logistics module fitted to your ship would slightly reduce the amount of repairs you get. this will cause less people to have their pvp ships and 1 logistic item for support of others. but have the logistic specific ships almost negate this effect pros: a great fall in the number of reps due to the fall in ships that have a single reper attached to their ship, while not making logistics a huge target. cons: slightly more lag but not much and again more whine also causes the ships that use a single reper to be less efficient at pvp. my solution two: better than one but still needs work. but i would say its doable. also the problem gets fixed with little hit to normal gameplay
Minigin Trinity Corp WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.10.27 16:36:00 - [18] Originally by: worvand Edited by: worvand on 27/10/2010 16:29:25 your fixes of the problem are too dramatic and cause more problems like the not letting logistic ships repair each other. the opposing fleet would then target logistic ships first then pick off the rest. i think the problem you brought up is there just your solutions are bad. here are my solutions. i suggest solution 2 over solution 1. my solution one: add a very very small diminishing return for the number of ships reping a single ship. not the number of modules. pros: the logistics would not be as strong and fights would go alittle faster. and having a large ammount of logistic ships would begin to cause less and less effect on the battle cons: the load on the server would increase causing more lag. and logistic ship players and tons of pvp players will whine to ccp my solution one result: not suggested too much lag in pvp right now my solution two: make it so that having a logistics module fitted to your ship would slightly reduce the amount of repairs you get. this will cause less people to have their pvp ships and 1 logistic item for support of others. but have the logistic specific ships almost negate this effect pros: a great fall in the number of reps due to the fall in ships that have a single reper attached to their ship, while not making logistics a huge target. cons: slightly more lag but not much and again more whine also causes the ships that use a single reper to be less efficient at pvp. my solution two: better than one but still needs work. but i would say its doable. also the problem gets fixed with little hit to normal gameplay i like the stacking penalty idea. glad you posted it. i think it would maintain logis effectiveness particularly as a force multiplier esp in small gangs, but will definatly curb those hour long fights where the only casualties are cosmetic. . THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER! Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
Dav Varan	Posted - 2010.10.27 16:40:00 - [19] How about a weapon supercharger. A top slot module that swaps dps for alpha. When activated weapons do 4x damage but have a 5 times longer rof. Weapon must be activated before it starts building up power and fires at the end of the cycle to prevent its abuse in a precharged mode in suicide gank situations. build up cycle can be cancelled and weapons fire if the supercharger is clicked off.
worvand	Posted - 2010.10.27 17:04:00 - [20] Originally by: Dav Varan How about a weapon supercharger. A top slot module that swaps dps for alpha. When activated weapons do 4x damage but have a 5 times longer rof. Weapon must be activated before it starts building up power and fires at the end of the cycle to prevent its abuse in a precharged mode in suicide gank situations. build up cycle can be cancelled and weapons fire if the supercharger is clicked off. hmm like the idea but that would **** the non buffered ships too much. too much of a super weapon against smaller ship. also look up the new doomsday set up. Your idea is already in effect. only usable by titans tho
Alekseyev Karrde Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.10.27 17:25:00 - [21] Change cap transfer cycles to work like shield transfers instead of armor transfers (cap deposited at start of cycle instead of end). Neuts will devestate cap transfer chains more easily, leading people to increase use the somewhat less rep effective logi models. Done. ---
Nuts Nougat Perkone	Posted - 2010.10.27 17:42:00 - [22] Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 27/10/2010 17:43:48 Originally by: Dav Varan How about a weapon supercharger. A top slot module that swaps dps for alpha. When activated weapons do 4x damage but have a 5 times longer rof. Weapon must be activated before it starts building up power and fires at the end of the cycle to prevent its abuse in a precharged mode in suicide gank situations. build up cycle can be cancelled and weapons fire if the supercharger is clicked off. It's called artillery. ---
Kalle Demos Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.10.27 18:02:00 - [23] Im keen on a new type of EW that lowers the effectiveness of remote reps / cap transfer so it wont be as simple as "ohh X is taking damage, everyone rep him". Anyway ill support because since the alliance tourny almost everyone flies a logi and tbh this game for the longest time has been numbers > skill
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.27 19:42:00 - [24] I do so love these "I fail at EVE, CCP, save me!!!!" proposals. I remember an AHAX fleet I was in over the summer where our logi wing was absolutely devastated in short order when our enemy turned out to be fitting short range weapons, painters and webs on their battlecruisers. Or another fight where our logis were barely effective because the enemy brought a lot of scorpions to the fight. Or another where they were hugely alpha-heavy, and our logi chain simply couldn't keep up with the incoming alpha and by the time someone broadcast and we got them locked up and got a rep cycle on them, they were probably dead. But, obviously, CCP needs to intervene. ------------------------------------------------ Hohohoho, Mister Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain!
Minigin Trinity Corp WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.10.28 03:18:00 - [25] Originally by: FinnAgain Zero I do so love these "I fail at EVE, CCP, save me!!!!" proposals. I remember an AHAX fleet I was in over the summer where our logi wing was absolutely devastated in short order when our enemy turned out to be fitting short range weapons, painters and webs on their battlecruisers. Or another fight where our logis were barely effective because the enemy brought a lot of scorpions to the fight. Or another where they were hugely alpha-heavy, and our logi chain simply couldn't keep up with the incoming alpha and by the time someone broadcast and we got them locked up and got a rep cycle on them, they were probably dead. But, obviously, CCP needs to intervene. i dont think you read the part where it was said "sure you can counter idiots". the fact that a remotely non-******ed scout can LOOK AT SHIPMODELS to see WHAT GUNS ARE FITTED, as well as see if theres a smartbomb trap or tonnes of people in local that arnt anywhere on scan aka bombers. leads me to believe that you are having a whinge because you enjoy being able to run around with 30 logis and die a fraction of the time you should because of how bad you are. ps. ive seen the rzr fits for "AHAX" and theres a reason you guys lose them. furthermore ive fought you in provi and you go closerange when you should come in long and you come in short range when you should go long. the reason you arnt thinking this is a little boring/imba is because you are bad enough to make severe enough mistaks to get massacred. . THE ORIGINAL COLOUR POSTER! Revisal > Nice job trying to troll me but luckily I'm smarter than you. :D
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.28 08:34:00 - [26] Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 28/10/2010 08:41:04 Originally by: Minigin i dont think you read the part where it was said "sure you can counter idiots". 1. Seriously, stop typing in green, it's neither clever nor funny. 2. No, what you actually said was "the weight of logistics ships pretty much get rid of [viable counters]. wether it be small gang or large. further the counters are relatively outlandish, and are difficult - almost impossible to pull off against a gang that isnt consisted entirely of people who have no idea whats going on." The counters are neither outlandish nor difficult to pull off against a decent gang with logi support, even a lot of logi support. And I just named a few off the top of my head. Originally by: Minigin you are having a whinge because you enjoy being able to run around with 30 logis and die a fraction of the time you should because of how bad you are. 1. Stop trolling, you're really bad at it and just end up looking like you ride the short bus. Yes, because I know that it's pretty easy to counter a logi wing then blah blah blah and I must be bad and blah blah. You're the one who's asking CCP to come save you because you can't deal with logis in the game. I'm the one who's trying to explain to you how you can deal with them. And that makes you think that I need help. At least we know that your deductive problem solving skills need work... 2. No, seriously, you're really not good at trolling. It's just sad. Stop while you're behind and call it a day. Originally by: Minigin ps. ive seen the rzr fits for "AHAX" and theres a reason you guys lose them. 1. No, seriously, your trolling must have been tarded before being it's obviously doing it again. It just looks stupid. Not that waving your epeen around isn't convincing (it isn't though) but your trolling about ship fittings is even sadder. To say nothing of the fact that you're pulling your trolling out of your nether regions and the fits are absolutely solid. 2.But of course that's the point of your trolling and rather than discussing why your whine about logis is ****ed and virtually nobody is supporting it, you'd rather discuss ship fittings (because, of course, RZR ship fittings will totally prove something about the combat profile of a Basilisk). Originally by:** Minigin the reason you arnt thinking this is a little boring/imba is because you are bad enough to make severe enough mistaks to get massacred. 1. No, seriously, you suck at trolling. Stop it. To remind you, you're the one who's claiming both that logis are virtually impossible to counter (because you're actually good at EVE and can adapt, but you'd rather not and it'd be nice if CCP would save you) and that people who can counter logis must be really bad at EVE, because if they were good they'd be helpless, like you. 2. It's also rather obvious that you don't actually know what you're talking about despite your bull about scouting and what-not. "I've got 120 reds in local... checking direcitonal... harbi, harbi, cane, cane, cane, scimi, scimi..." "Quick, look at the ship models of all the ships in the fleet and tell me what the guns look like!" "...what?" "Warp in on them, get within 100 km, and manually click on all the ships to make sure that they don't have short range weapons fit. Don't worry, we'll wait." "Yes but..." "Oh, and find out if they have any cynos fit so they could hotdrop us with an opposing force and they're just bait to lock us down." "Wait, I don't think you..." "Oh, and make sure that they aren't fitting target painters or lots of webs. Man, I hate it when that happens." "Okay... honest question, are you high?" "What? This is what all the pro FC's do. You're really bad." I like you Minigin, you may suck at trolling but boy are you funny. ------------------------------------------------ Hohohoho, Mister Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain!
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.10.28 10:05:00 - [27] Get a wing of Rooks or Falcons then, problem solved.
JcJet Caldari Pretenders Inc Tower of Dark Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.28 10:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Minigin Originally by: JcJet wtf? Some words... EWar, neutralizers, bombs, alpha. make sence? t2 bs with triage module? :) so tell me... did you work out these perfect counters via your 11 kills and 9 losses? No, not just me, it's right bacause it so. ---
FinnAgain Zero Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.28 10:21:00 - [29] Ah, but somewhere you may have (in someone's opinion) fit a ship wrong. Also your text is very obviously not green. Therefore you are wrong. ------------------------------------------------ Hohohoho, Mister Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain!
JcJet Caldari Pretenders Inc Tower of Dark Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.28 10:38:00 - [30] Fit a ship wrong? even if so, it's doesn't mean anything here :) but definitely i'm never discuss fittings on forums, which is good, because if i do, it's will be a sign that i irrationally wasting time :) ---

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