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kajumar
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Posted - 2010.10.29 22:19:00 -
[1]
this thread is not a rage thread just a discussion (so no raging about stuff plz)
i have been doing many level 4 missions with people and using eft and other programs and noticed a massive difference in dps tanks between shield tankers and armour. noticeable that most people using a shield tanker can comfortably solo tank l4 mission with relative ease where armour tanking ship struggle with this.
as most shield tanking bs you can make 800 dps spec tanks rather easily which will allow you to deal with any mission. where if you use a rmour tanker that amount is usually half or 500 dps tank.
if you like to let me know your opinion on this let me know
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.29 22:30:00 -
[2]
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shaved chimp
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Posted - 2010.10.29 22:33:00 -
[3]
Armor tanking is more cap-efficient.
Shield tanking can get more HP boosting per second than armor tanking. There is also some passive regeneration.
So, yes, by design shields can boost more HP/s.
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Altaica Amur
The Elliance
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Posted - 2010.10.29 22:56:00 -
[4]
The cap thing is important as low slots don't offer very good options for producing cap ( relays nerf shields, fluxes nerf themselves ) making it fairly challenging to make a sustainable shield tank with an XL booster. Taking a quick look through contracts for XL booster will show this as it's not the one that rep the most that are worth the most but the one that requires the least cap while still repping a decent amount.
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Flesh Slurper
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Posted - 2010.10.30 01:12:00 -
[5]
There are lots of variables when it comes to tanking:
-Your cap,
-How fast you rep
-Passive regen (if any)
-your resists vs the enemy damage types
-Your speed
-your signature radius
-Distance from the enemy
You can balance these factors however you want in either shield or armor tanking to get the results you need.
If you are moving fast enough, the damage you take is considerably less.
Also if your cap skills are good and/or you learn to pulse your repair module, you can get good results with using an Aux nano pump. a nanobot accelerator, and a capacitor control circuit as opposed to 3 capacitor control circuit rigs on armor tanks. This increases repair speed and amount.
I never need even close to an 800 DPS tank to complete any level 4, and I never run cap stable either (usually around 2.5 minutes of cap with afterburner off, and a bit less with afterburner on.)
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.10.30 02:24:00 -
[6]
lets face it - if you need 800 dps tank in a mission, your doing it wrong.
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.10.30 04:28:00 -
[7]
Last lvl4 mission boat I had only had a 300-350 dps tank. It was single rep, DCII and a pair of EANM's. It was over-tanked.
That said, you are right that shield tanking is far superior at the sub capital level for getting massive HP/s. My maelstrom gets roughly a 1500 dps active tank all on its own with a crystal set. Throw in a blue pill and some gang links and it breaks 3k dps tank. The flip side of this is armor is far superior for buffer.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Mike Voidstar
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Posted - 2010.10.30 04:38:00 -
[8]
I get around 700 dps tanks on my Domi, but I am lazy and like to just sit in one spot in a mission so all my wrecks are grouped in a 20ish KM ball for easy Salvaging. Even so, I realize I am overtanked for 90% of my missions, but my gunnery skills are still pretty meh and I rely on drones anyway. I'm not exactly a high earner.
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Thraxor Blacksoul
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Posted - 2010.10.30 04:52:00 -
[9]
As an Amarr pilot I agree with the OP.
Armor tankers have been pimped for way too many years
Buff armor tanking now!
Make it so CCP.
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NewGit
Caldari
Rusty Industries
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Posted - 2010.10.30 04:58:00 -
[10]
I wouldn't say there is an unbalance. While it appears that shields are better in PvE, it seems that armour is much better for PvP.
Fitting skills, aggro management and playing style also make a difference. I tend to (way) over tank my ships, but then I like to warp into the pocket, get all the aggro, let loose the drones and have the clean-up crew warp in while I'm still killing the rats.
Unless I have some distance to move to get to the next gate, I usually just sit in one spot and absorb whatever is being dished out. Obviously not a good strategy for PvP though. 
If I were to try armour tanking the same missions, I would no doubt have to adjust the way I do things. I'm sure that in a lot of missions, armour tanking would probably be a better choice (thinking about, for example, the number of Amarr missions I've been doing where the primary damage type is EM which is harder for shield tankers to defend against).
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
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Count Chamberlain
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Posted - 2010.10.30 23:31:00 -
[11]
As a Caldari Pilot, i to agree with OP. Shield tanking is easy to make cap stable as opposed to Armor tanking (speaking from experiance with other accounts)..and then people wonder why i chose Caldari.
Bit back to subject, Armor repping needs a buff :/ -winces at what he's saying-
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kajumar
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Posted - 2010.10.30 23:36:00 -
[12]
to shaved chimps comment armour tanking is very slightly more cap efficient around 8 cap a second more but. shield repair cycle is 1/3 of the time of a armour repper for the same amount of cap per cycle. hte only way armour tanking is more cap efficient it seems is there hardeners have a longer cycle time.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.30 23:36:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 30/10/2010 23:38:49
 Originally by: King Rothgar
Last lvl4 mission boat I had only had a 300-350 dps tank. It was single rep, DCII and a pair of EANM's. It was over-tanked.
That said, you are right that shield tanking is far superior at the sub capital level for getting massive HP/s. My maelstrom gets roughly a 1500 dps active tank all on its own with a crystal set. Throw in a blue pill and some gang links and it breaks 3k dps tank. The flip side of this is armor is far superior for buffer.
You cannot complete all level 4's with that amount of tank, so it cannot possibly have been overtanked.
Ninja edit for clarity, you cant do them with that amount of tank and not be forced to warp out.
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Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.10.31 00:05:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Rastigan on 31/10/2010 00:08:59
Originally by: kajumar
this thread is not a rage thread just a discussion (so no raging about stuff plz)
i have been doing many level 4 missions with people and using eft and other programs and noticed a massive difference in dps tanks between shield tankers and armour. noticeable that most people using a shield tanker can comfortably solo tank l4 mission with relative ease where armour tanking ship struggle with this.
as most shield tanking bs you can make 800 dps spec tanks rather easily which will allow you to deal with any mission. where if you use a rmour tanker that amount is usually half or 500 dps tank.
if you like to let me know your opinion on this let me know
Can you post some reasonable fits for these tanks ? by spec do you mean one damage type ? You can make a Dominix perma-tank 1000 dps vs Guristas with t2 mods and t1 rigs and still have a mid slot empty. I would like to see you do that with a Raven.
Typically each type of tanking has its advantages.
Buffer = Armor: 1600 plates give MUCH more EHP per mod than LSE's and slave implants work on capital ships unlike crystals.
Speed = Shield: rigs dont slow your ship down and armor plates add to the ships mass reducing its agility/speed.
Sig radius = Armor: shield rigs and extenders can bloat cruisers to BC size sig and BC's to BS size sigs, and Drakes to past-BS size sigs(rage torps here we go!).
Active tank = Both, its far easier to make an armor tank perma run . and a shield tank typically has a higher short term burst tank.
Passive tank = Shield, this is shields biggest advantage over armor, the ability to self heal over time, or the ability to self heal EVERY system you jump to, if you are ganged with someone with siege warfare skills.
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kajumar
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Posted - 2010.11.01 00:35:00 -
[15]
can you send the fit for a 1000 dps spec tank for a dominix
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.01 00:59:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 01/11/2010 01:02:04
[Dominix- Lazy ****-inix]
[Low]
Large Armor Rep II
Large Armor Rep II
Kinetic Hardener II
Kinetic Hardener II
Thermic Hardener II
Thermic Hardener II
Damage Control II
[Med]
Cap Recharger II x5
[High]
-
[Rigs]
CCC I x3
1k+ tank for kin/therm rats AND CAP STABLE WOWOWOW important stuff... go afk some missions you winner you!
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Antihrist Pripravnik
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.11.01 03:14:00 -
[17]
Originally by: kajumar
this thread is not a rage thread just a discussion (so no raging about stuff plz)
i have been doing many level 4 missions with people and using eft and other programs and noticed a massive difference in dps tanks between shield tankers and armour. noticeable that most people using a shield tanker can comfortably solo tank l4 mission with relative ease where armour tanking ship struggle with this.
as most shield tanking bs you can make 800 dps spec tanks rather easily which will allow you to deal with any mission. where if you use a rmour tanker that amount is usually half or 500 dps tank.
if you like to let me know your opinion on this let me know
lol
Have you ever heard anything about ships called Munnin or Ishtar?
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Mara Jorin
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Posted - 2010.11.01 04:24:00 -
[18]
I talked about shield tanking imbalance in my WH blog.
I did some testing for both active armor/passive shield and found I could get a better tank out of a myrm with shield tanking then I could with the armor tank it got the bonus for.
Check it out here.
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Mike712
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Posted - 2010.11.01 04:25:00 -
[19]
Some missions are tough:
Silence the informant can be nasty if you don't have the range to quickly kill the cruisers in the initial spawn.
Guristas assault is arround 550-600 sustained incoming DPS.
AE bonus room is well over 600 DPS on initial agro, it can be tanked with a sub 500 DPS tank though if your DPS output is good and you primary the right targets.
Second spawn in damsel can be nasty if you don't have enough DPS to kill a few BS before they make it into orbit(they are pretty weak though so it's rarely a problem).
Serpentis room in worlds collide is a little over 500-550 DPS sustained as the battleships are high bounty ones and tough to kill.
And of course there is enimies abound 5 which is pretty crazy.
Everything else can be tanked with sub 500 DPS tank with about 5 min+ of cap life, if you don't screw up and over-agro.
Also you forget that armor tanks will be naturally stronger VS EM/Therm missions due to base resists so they have an advantage there. Try making an 800 DPS EM/Therm spec tank on a shield tanked ship that does viable DPS and is not completly officer/faction/complex fitted.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.11.01 04:37:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 30/10/2010 23:38:49
Originally by: King Rothgar
Last lvl4 mission boat I had only had a 300-350 dps tank. It was single rep, DCII and a pair of EANM's. It was over-tanked.
That said, you are right that shield tanking is far superior at the sub capital level for getting massive HP/s. My maelstrom gets roughly a 1500 dps active tank all on its own with a crystal set. Throw in a blue pill and some gang links and it breaks 3k dps tank. The flip side of this is armor is far superior for buffer.
You cannot complete all level 4's with that amount of tank, so it cannot possibly have been overtanked.
Ninja edit for clarity, you cant do them with that amount of tank and not be forced to warp out.
and which ones would they be?
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Mike712
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Posted - 2010.11.01 04:39:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Mike712 on 01/11/2010 04:42:39
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 30/10/2010 23:38:49
Originally by: King Rothgar
Last lvl4 mission boat I had only had a 300-350 dps tank. It was single rep, DCII and a pair of EANM's. It was over-tanked.
That said, you are right that shield tanking is far superior at the sub capital level for getting massive HP/s. My maelstrom gets roughly a 1500 dps active tank all on its own with a crystal set. Throw in a blue pill and some gang links and it breaks 3k dps tank. The flip side of this is armor is far superior for buffer.
You cannot complete all level 4's with that amount of tank, so it cannot possibly have been overtanked.
Ninja edit for clarity, you cant do them with that amount of tank and not be forced to warp out.
and which ones would they be?
Probably the ones I lised(at least in a battleship anyway)
350 deffense would probably be a tad low for a few others but I can't think of all of them of the top of my head(pirate invasion and blockade for sure).
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Azver Deroven
Amarr
Pitch Black.
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2010.11.01 05:41:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Azver Deroven on 01/11/2010 05:43:10
350, might be bit low. 450ish on Paladin, can handle.
----------------------------------------------------
My views do not represent those of my alliance, corporation or myself. Trully, sometimes I manage to confuse even myself.
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Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.11.01 12:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mara Jorin
I talked about shield tanking imbalance in my WH blog.
I did some testing for both active armor/passive shield and found I could get a better tank out of a myrm with shield tanking then I could with the armor tank it got the bonus for.
Check it out here.
At what cost though ? That Myrmidon would barely have enough cap recharge to be able to keep two shield hardeners running..
armor BC's did get screwed in the fact there is no medium/large/x-l armor repair choices unlike shields, its medium or medium...
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Mara Jorin
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Posted - 2010.11.01 14:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Rastigan
Originally by: Mara Jorin
I talked about shield tanking imbalance in my WH blog.
I did some testing for both active armor/passive shield and found I could get a better tank out of a myrm with shield tanking then I could with the armor tank it got the bonus for.
Check it out here.
At what cost though ? That Myrmidon would barely have enough cap recharge to be able to keep two shield hardeners running..
armor BC's did get screwed in the fact there is no medium/large/x-l armor repair choices unlike shields, its medium or medium...
With both hardeners on, tank is 947 and cap lasts just shy of 13 minutes. With only one hardener on, tank drops to 805 and cap lasts almost 52 minutes. With both hardeners off, its 100% cap stable and still tanks 663.
Considering the highest armor rep tank I got on the ship that has the bonuses was less then that and also not cap stable (unless I used cap boosters), I'd hardly say its a significant cost.
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Timm Tachyon
Caldari
Hollywood Minerals Inc.
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:14:00 -
[25]
I asume the 2 hardeners are discussed after the cap usage for the hybrid guns?
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Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:54:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Timm Tachyon
I asume the 2 hardeners are discussed after the cap usage for the hybrid guns?
No, if you have guns they better be projectiles, it wont work with any cap using guns.
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Zyress
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Posted - 2010.11.01 21:19:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Zyress on 01/11/2010 21:21:21
I can solo every lvl4 there is in my mission Drake which has I think about a 275 DPS passive regen on a little under 90K EHP buffer shield tank, I just take out the frigates as fast as I can and any stasis towers then with a afterburner nothing ever really gets close enough to put a dent in me. Its way over tanked but I wasn't doing anything else with those slots I got 3 BCU's in the lows for damage. I never have to warp out of a mission.
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Mara Jorin
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Posted - 2010.11.01 22:33:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Rastigan
Originally by: Timm Tachyon
I asume the 2 hardeners are discussed after the cap usage for the hybrid guns?
No, if you have guns they better be projectiles, it wont work with any cap using guns.
This.
Besides, using any guns other then projectiles is pretty much fail on the myrm, considering it doesn't get a native bonus to any gun type. Because of this, there is no reason NOT to use the guns that track the best as well as not use any cap.
You can get 391 dps out of that fit that tanks 900 dps with arties and reach out forever to hit stuff, or drop the arties for 425mm AC with barrage and hit 463 dps with the same tank but at significantly reduced range. Its a theoretical setup to be sure, but really illustrates how much more powerful passive shield tank is on a ship that gets the opposite bonuses.
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Daergaar
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.02 18:24:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Zyress
Edited by: Zyress on 01/11/2010 21:21:21
I can solo every lvl4 there is in my mission Drake which has I think about a 275 DPS passive regen on a little under 90K EHP buffer shield tank, I just take out the frigates as fast as I can and any stasis towers then with a afterburner nothing ever really gets close enough to put a dent in me. Its way over tanked but I wasn't doing anything else with those slots I got 3 BCU's in the lows for damage. I never have to warp out of a mission.
With a tank like that, why in the damn universe do you need an afterburner?
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.02 18:29:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Daergaar
With a tank like that, why in the damn universe do you need an afterburner?
Why would he NOT want some form of prop. mod? lol
Even pewpew missiles ships have to move places to find new things to pewpew at yaknow?
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IbanezLaney
Caldari
Dingo took my corp name
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Posted - 2010.11.02 18:52:00 -
[31]
I dunno about armor tanks, but for shield tanks - It's all about cap.
The more cap you have - the more tank you have.
Use both cap hardwires if cap skills are low - they help lots. cc8 and cr8 i think they are called. PvE Ravens can be made unbreakable by any L4 mission but the dps output will be pathetic and it'll be a damn expensive fit.
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AstarothPrime
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Posted - 2010.11.05 14:52:00 -
[32]
Originally by: King Rothgar
The flip side of this is armor is far superior for buffer.
Can someone please try explaining this as if I were an idiot.
TBH ive tried myself in EFT in all possible situations what field effective armor buffer tank (frigs and cruisers arent really suitable for armor tanks ofc, due to lack of speed). Couldnt see it work.
Then ppl say its superior in cap fights?
Which cap fights that exactly is? Chimera has by far the superior shield buffer and it heals 3k ehp / second. Wyvern has by far the best shield buffer ingame reaching 70M EHP. Leviathan is the only titan that can field effective buffer tank and firepower at the same time.
Is there any cap / large ship I hadnt seen in evelopedia / does EFT show wrong numbers or what? I really dont get it.
Regards
I.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.05 16:59:00 -
[33]
Originally by: AstarothPrime
Originally by: King Rothgar
The flip side of this is armor is far superior for buffer.
Can someone please try explaining this as if I were an idiot.
Step 1: Put a bunch of 1600mm plates and ENAMS on an armor buffer ship
Step 2: Put a bunch of LSE and Invuls on a shield buffer ship
Step 3: Modify character to include slave set
Step 4: Note that before and ESPCIALLY after, the armor ship is well ahead in ehp (assuming the ships are of the same class and tier)
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iKill Giants
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.05 19:02:00 -
[34]
Originally by: AstarothPrime
Originally by: King Rothgar
The flip side of this is armor is far superior for buffer.
Can someone please try explaining this as if I were an idiot.
Shields have an 0% resist, and per slot, armor offers more HP's. The amount of HP given by a 1600mm Rolled Tungsten plate is nearly double that of a Large Shield Extender II. In return, shield ships get X-Large Shield Boosters, while armor gets kept with LAR's.
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People always ask me for my Rupture fit after I blow up their Abaddon. |
Moose Burger
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Posted - 2010.11.05 21:44:00 -
[35]
Step 5: Put Snakes on the shield tanker's implant set
Step 6: Look at how superior in speed the shield tanker is.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.05 21:50:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Moose Burger
Step 5: Put Snakes on the shield tanker's implant set
Step 6: Look at how superior in speed the shield tanker is.
This is relavent to a discussion of buffer tanking.
-1
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Xituqtra
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Posted - 2010.11.05 22:09:00 -
[37]
gotta love you are able to fit a medium shield extender on frigs they make for awesome buffer tanks ^^
It works like a charm with a blaster harpy or sniper harpy for that matter.
Or what about a nice medium shield booster on a frigate wich is also fun ^^
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shaved chimp
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Posted - 2010.11.05 23:11:00 -
[38]
I think a key point missing in this thread is that the ships are balanced for PVP. In PVP these shield tanking ships are going to have to remove a module or two for some of the necessary PVP modules: scram, web, sensor booster, or whatever. It's fine if shield tanks are more powerful for PVE. It's not like missions are so hard anyhow. When it comes to PVP the armor tank is king. So, from this perspective it seems fair and balanced to me.
- Chimp
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Cataca
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Posted - 2010.11.06 01:36:00 -
[39]
If you are smart about aggro, a t2 4 slot non cap stable armor tank is all you need for level 4 missions. AE bonus room is a no-go obviously, but thats about it.
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Ten Bulls
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.06 10:43:00 -
[40]
Gallente epic arc you need about 1800dps on one of the missions.
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