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Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ethereal Dawn
76
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Posted - 2012.08.05 15:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
reading the csm minuets I remember coming across the suggestion about nerfing income sources across the board, and a idea i'd had recently about a possible isk sink is this:
allow with people The skills to use T2 weapons/ammo to use T2 ammo in faction weapons, example being atm with T2 projectiles there are times when barrage is used and useful and other times where players swap over to Faction ammo instead during engagements, allowing people with the skills to use T2 ammos in faction weapon systems, faction weapon systems are not cheap isk wise, invariably you are going to have isk removed from game via ship kills, with some being scoopable by whoever loots the field.
One possibility is to require the T2 specialization to be trained to level 5 OR trained to level 5 and have a new skills, something like "advanced Tactical weapon reconfiguration" - Requires "abc" specialization Level 5 allows loading of faction weapons systems with T2 ammo - (bonus wise dont' know tbt as it's just a idea) |

Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
787
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Posted - 2012.08.05 16:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
So at which point does your idea remove any ISK from the game? |

Andrasta Shor
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.08.05 16:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:So at which point does your idea remove any ISK from the game?
At the point where people buy more faction items from the LP store. |

Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
380
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Posted - 2012.08.05 16:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:point
I don't honestly think he has one. If you need a friend call me @ (501) 444-CCNA |

Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ethereal Dawn
77
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Posted - 2012.08.05 16:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:So at which point does your idea remove any ISK from the game?
at the point where faction weapons like republic fleet autos/artis are destroyed when the ship is blown up. |

baltec1
Bat Country
1800
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Posted - 2012.08.05 16:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:So at which point does your idea remove any ISK from the game? at the point where faction weapons like republic fleet autos/artis are destroyed when the ship is blown up.
Im going to spend the extra isk on faction weapons on my megathron why? |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1763
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Posted - 2012.08.05 16:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Im going to spend the extra isk on faction weapons on my megathron why?
Because they're worse than T2 and that's obviously good for some reason. 
-Liang
Ed: Have to admit, let me load up T2 ammo and make Caldari Blasters have 2x optimal and Federation Navy Blasters have 2x Falloff.... ! Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Elvis Fett
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
23
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Posted - 2012.08.05 16:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
To be honest I just don't see the point. If somebody has skills for T2 guns they aren't going to use faction guns. T2 guns do more DPS with their appropriate specialization skill than faction guns, at a fraction of the cost. |

Kallian Ardessa
2
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Posted - 2012.08.05 17:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Currently the only reasons (that I'm aware of) to use faction guns are if you don't have the skills for T2 guns, or if your fit is tight on powergrid/CPU--which probably just means that you haven't trained the weapons upgrade skills.
Looking at Jita, the faction guns are at least selling in some quantity, but I like the idea of making them less useless. The threshold at which T2 guns deal more damage than faction guns is (weapon specialization skill) level 3.
I don't know if I'm on-board with the idea of faction guns using advanced ammo, though. The ammo is designed to be loaded into specialized hardware that requires certain skills to be able to operate. It seems to me that it would cheapen what T2 ammo is to allow low-tech weapons to load advanced ammo.
What are people's thought on buffing faction guns by giving an increase to damage/tracking/range with faction ammo instead? I mean--the guns are designed by a specific military entity. Why wouldn't they be designed to take best advantage of that military faction's special ammunition?
Thoughts? |

Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ethereal Dawn
77
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Posted - 2012.08.05 17:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Elvis Fett wrote:To be honest I just don't see the point. If somebody has skills for T2 guns they aren't going to use faction guns. T2 guns do more DPS with their appropriate specialization skill than faction guns, at a fraction of the cost.
however faction weapon systems with faction ammo loaded iirc does more damage than T2 weapons with T2 ammo loaded generally.
having the skills and the possible skill i suggested might give some people a incentive to actually risk faction weapon systems in pvp, and for the poster asking why people would risk faction weapon systems, well some people in eve have a lot of isk and to them the loss of several bill worth of carrier for a example is usually "oh damn now I got to go shopping at the market..." read comments in the CSM minutes. Plus ask yourself would you be happy with all your income sources nerfed across the board as that was one preposal in the CSM minuites.
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Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ethereal Dawn
77
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Posted - 2012.08.05 17:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kallian Ardessa wrote: I don't know if I'm on-board with the idea of faction guns using advanced ammo, though. The ammo is designed to be loaded into specialized hardware that requires certain skills to be able to operate. It seems to me that it would cheapen what T2 ammo is to allow low-tech weapons to load advanced ammo.
hence the proposal of a additional skill require to be trained to implement this from a player side of things |

Kallian Ardessa
2
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Posted - 2012.08.05 17:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:Kallian Ardessa wrote: I don't know if I'm on-board with the idea of faction guns using advanced ammo, though. The ammo is designed to be loaded into specialized hardware that requires certain skills to be able to operate. It seems to me that it would cheapen what T2 ammo is to allow low-tech weapons to load advanced ammo.
hence the proposal of a additional skill require to be trained to implement this from a player side of things
Hmm...That still doesn't take care of the fact that T2 guns will deal more damage with T1/Faction/T2 ammo than their faction counterparts. If this skill buffed faction gun damage then I can see a case for it. Though from a storyline perspective it's my understanding that faction guns are just very well-engineered variants of T1 technology. Enabling T2 ammo usage for faction guns would implicitly enable the use of T2 ammo for T1 hardware.
Maybe the T2 ammo would damage the T1 hardware, and the skill could help mitigate this? This idea seems to be a little complex from a storyline perspective. I like your concept of buffing faction guns to be in line with the cost/benefit trade-off of other T2/faction module pairings, but I'm more in favor of making the hardware more specialized rather than just making it better than T2.
I think that that's the kind of path that CCP would rather take--specialization over iteration.
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Scion Lex
Rogue Bastards.
16
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Posted - 2012.08.05 17:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kallian Ardessa wrote:Blastcaps Madullier wrote:Kallian Ardessa wrote: I don't know if I'm on-board with the idea of faction guns using advanced ammo, though. The ammo is designed to be loaded into specialized hardware that requires certain skills to be able to operate. It seems to me that it would cheapen what T2 ammo is to allow low-tech weapons to load advanced ammo.
hence the proposal of a additional skill require to be trained to implement this from a player side of things Hmm...That still doesn't take care of the fact that T2 guns will deal more damage with T1/Faction/T2 ammo than their faction counterparts. If this skill buffed faction gun damage then I can see a case for it. Though from a storyline perspective it's my understanding that faction guns are just very well-engineered variants of T1 technology. Enabling T2 ammo usage for faction guns would implicitly enable the use of T2 ammo for T1 hardware. Maybe the T2 ammo would damage the T1 hardware, and the skill could help mitigate this? This idea seems to be a little complex from a storyline perspective. I like your concept of buffing faction guns to be in line with the cost/benefit trade-off of other T2/faction module pairings, but I'm more in favor of making the hardware more specialized rather than just making it better than T2. I think that that's the kind of path that CCP would rather take--specialization over iteration.
But the Cost/benefit trade off of faction guns isn't static, its determined by the market and by the fact that they are not easily aquired. Any change in this would, most likely, increase the price significantly I would guess. It is odd to me that faction mwd and faction point are certainly better than T2, but faction guns are not. That should probably change. Personally, I'm cheap and have never looked into using them so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
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Kallian Ardessa
2
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Posted - 2012.08.05 17:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Scion Lex wrote: But the Cost/benefit trade off of faction guns isn't static, its determined by the market and by the fact that they are not easily aquired. Any change in this would, most likely, increase the price significantly I would guess. It is odd to me that faction mwd and faction point are certainly better than T2, but faction guns are not. That should probably change. Personally, I'm cheap and have never looked into using them so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
It's only partially determined by the market. The idea behind the original poster's concept was that it would serve as an ISK sink because these modules are created through the loyalty point stores, which requires ISK, LP, and faction tags. The tags will vary in price as demand and supply dance around each other, but the ISK required is a flat rate, and most (smart) people looking to cash out on LP won't accept anything below 2000 ISK/LP. I usually only cash out when I can grab 3500-4000 ISK/LP, so I don't think that supply would skyrocket outside of reasonable levels, nor would supply be unable to keep pace with demand.
I agree with you completely that there needs to be an actual advantage to using faction guns. I'd prefer if the advantage were situational, though. E.G.: A bonus to tracking, or range, or ROF instead of a bonus to everything.
I'm being realistic, though. I don't expect that this idea will go anywhere. As a disclaimer, I'm just stream-of-thought-ing. |

Spurty
D00M. Northern Coalition.
408
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Posted - 2012.08.05 18:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
Make T3 ammo then.
100 rounds of T3 ammo requires 100 rounds of T1 and another 100 rounds of T2 + Something you can only get by mining in low sec.
Result is a Hybrid damage, lacks the penalties but 15% less of the original t2 bonus.
May be used in META 5+ guns only
Thus creating something that doesn't encroach on what we already have and fills that void at the other end of the spectrum.
Tweak and bake until ready ---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |

Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ethereal Dawn
78
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Posted - 2012.08.05 19:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Spurty wrote:Make T3 ammo then.
100 rounds of T3 ammo requires 100 rounds of T1 and another 100 rounds of T2 + Something you can only get by mining in low sec.
Result is a Hybrid damage, lacks the penalties but 15% less of the original t2 bonus.
May be used in META 5+ guns only
Thus creating something that doesn't encroach on what we already have and fills that void at the other end of the spectrum.
Tweak and bake until ready
Interesting ideas so far, and glad to see this is sticking to a discussion and debate :) you can kinda see what i'm getting at though and hopefuly the thinking and logic behind the original idea I started the thread about.
instead of the idea about T3 ammo, what about when used with advanced weapon system reconfiguration besides allowing the use of T2 ammo in faction weapon systems it changes some of the atributes of the faction weapon as someone above posted? and I def like the idea about it causing damage to faction weapon systems though this gets negated at lvl 5 skill trained in advanced weapon system reconfiguration but you are still NOT able to use in standard T1 weapon systems, IE meta 0-4 weapon systems, only faction ones upwards?
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Cadfael Maelgwyn
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2012.08.05 20:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Just let people manufacture their own faction equipment without buying from LP stores.
Burn all LP stores. |

Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ethereal Dawn
79
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Posted - 2012.08.05 21:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
that would pritty much kill incursions which is not the idea.
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Cadfael Maelgwyn
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2012.08.05 21:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:that would pritty much kill incursions which is not the idea.
Butbutbut, didn't CCP already 'kill hundreds of communities' when they made them harder? |

Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ethereal Dawn
79
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Posted - 2012.08.05 21:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:Blastcaps Madullier wrote:that would pritty much kill incursions which is not the idea.
Butbutbut, didn't CCP already 'kill hundreds of communities' when they made them harder?
and if you read the CSM minutes you'll see think it was CCP soundwave saying he regrets what happened to the incursion community as a result of changes made.
but thoughts on the idea about faction weapon systems and T2 ammo etc? :)
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
138
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Posted - 2012.08.05 23:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ed: Have to admit, let me load up T2 ammo and make Caldari Blasters have 2x optimal and Federation Navy Blasters have 2x Falloff.... !
oh god yes.
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ISD TYPE40
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
73

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Posted - 2012.08.05 23:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thread moved from General Discussion to Features and Ideas Discussion - ISD Type40. ISD Type40 Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Kitt JT
League of Non-Aligned Worlds Nulli Secunda
62
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Posted - 2012.08.06 05:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
look up what an isk sink is.
when a ship or module dies, there is exactally zero isk removed from the game.
infact, pvp involving ship losses is an isk faucet because of insurance -something ccp should probably just do away with entirely. |

Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
219
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Posted - 2012.08.06 07:34:00 -
[24] - Quote
Another thread on T2 ammo in Faction guns... Personally I'm for it, as Faction modules are as good as, or better than T2 modules in every category except weapons.
Quote:Currently the only reasons (that I'm aware of) to use faction guns are if you don't have the skills for T2 guns, or if your fit is tight on powergrid/CPU--which probably just means that you haven't trained the weapons upgrade skills.
No to your second part. Faction guns have the same powergrid requirements as T2 weapons. They have the CPU reqs of a meta4 gun, and the PG reqs of a T2 gun. As PG is often the limiting factor on gunboats, Faction guns don't help your fitting.
One advantage they do give over T2 applies only to hybrids and lasers - reduced capacitor consumption. T2 guns use 33.3% more capacitor than Faction guns. This is why I use Faction Tachyon lasers in PvE, (combined with the fact that the T2 beam laser ammo isn't all that useful, aurora only does the damage of a standard crystal, and the standard crystal already has plenty of range for my usage. The close range ammo might be interesting for its tracking boost though).
For projectile guns... I can't see why you'd ever choose to use faction - same PG reqs, less damage, no T2 ammo. Maybe faction projectile guns (and to balance it somewhat, hybrids as well), should have more capacity, so you can shot them more before reloading.
Another interesting possibility that would apply only to lasers: Faction crystals take no damage when fitted in faction lasers. I can't think of a way to do this for hybrids or projectiles, except to create nearly identical (but much cheaper) faction ammo that can only be fired in faction guns and not T1/T2 guns.
I would also consider splitting the faction weapons: Empire faction weapons = Upgraded T1 weapons (lower PG reqs to be the same as meta 4), unlimited use of faction ammo. Pirate faction weapons = Upgraded T2 weapons - benefit from and require spec skill, and can use T2 ammo. |
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