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Bibosikus
Gallente
Universal Moose Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.10 20:25:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Bibosikus on 10/11/2010 20:26:12
This may have been posted before, in which case read no further :)
IAP's have been hitting 40+ mill per item on the market for some time, and it needs to stop.
The clearest example of why is the Large Trimark Armor Pump II, which needs 15-20 IAP's to build, and which subsequently at around 750m ISK costs more than an off-the-shelf Carrier.
Compare T2 Trimarks to their shield-tanking equivalent: T2 Large Core Field Extender, 270m (just over 1/3 of the price).
There is no logic to any rig costing more than a capital ship. It's just purely, awfully, obviously wrong.
As another example - at the time of writing, some poor desperate sod is trying to sell his triple-T2 Trimarked Megathron on contract for nearly 1.3 BILLION.
This has wandered way off base.
All CCP needs to do is maybe gently raise the chance of IAP drops in mag sites, and it's sorted.
Please?
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.10 20:49:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 10/11/2010 20:50:14
Supply and demand my friend.
There are (almost) no ships worthy of a CDE II and their demand is very low. Conversely, there are a metric asston of armor tanked sexmobiles which warrent a trimark II.
Make shield tanking and logistics some kind of viable for large fleets and I assure you the prices will even out. 
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Random Alt1467
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Posted - 2010.11.10 21:20:00 -
[3]
Most Armor T2 rigs go on pimped caps and pretty much all Super Caps. A carrier's hull may cost a billion, but look at the price of a properly fitted Carrier. The rig cost doesn't seem so bad. A good example would be a Domi, The hull is 50mil or less. 3 basic T1 rigs can easily cost as much as the hull itself, but less then a properly fitted Domi with a full load of drones and mods. It is also not uncommon to se T2 Sentry rigs on them as well which cost more then the hull and T1 rigs put together.
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Bibosikus
Gallente
Universal Moose Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.10 21:39:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Bibosikus on 10/11/2010 21:41:26
I'd like to believe it's market-driven but I was using the large Trimark as a forward example of a module. And if you look at Eve-Market, you'll see a *tiny* movement in Large T2's - so there's very little demand.
It's the IAPs which are costing stupid amounts, and they're a salvage item from T2 ship wrecks or low/nullsec mag sites. And the reason they're expensive is because of their drop-rate, which is directly related to the CCP salvage drop tables.
Basically, I would dearly like to be shown the % drop rates of IAP's versus those for Intact Logic/Power Circuits, which make up the bulk of materials for (eg.) equivalent shield rigs and which can be bought for comparative peanuts.
As far as I can see, there shouldn't be a disparity - but given the market, there clearly is.
My only suspicion is that perhaps the bulk of IAPs comes from Gallente T2 wrecks, since Gal comprise the bulk of armour-tanking ships. After all, there's no reason why a Golem should drop one..
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.10 21:45:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Bibosikus
As far as I can see, there shouldn't be a disparity - but given the market, there clearly is.
Did you happen to miss my post?
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Bibosikus
Gallente
Universal Moose Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.10 21:48:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Bibosikus on 10/11/2010 21:51:43
No, I replied directly to it - but I was (trying to) be specific to IAPs as a salvage item rather than the Large T2 Trimarks (which barely move in the market, hence clearly are not, as you suggested, in high demand - Economics 101)
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Amaha Masane
Caldari
Avalon Advanced Research and Development
Eclectic Collective
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Posted - 2010.11.10 23:09:00 -
[7]
Didn't CCP mention (around the same time as they introduced rig sizes) that they were thinking of introducing a sort of alchemy ala moon goo to help reduce the price bottlenecks for t2 rigs.
*looks pointedly at devs...*
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.11.10 23:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Bibosikus
No, I replied directly to it - but I was (trying to) be specific to IAPs as a salvage item rather than the Large T2 Trimarks (which barely move in the market, hence clearly are not, as you suggested, in high demand - Economics 101)
They actually *are* in high demand in relation to available supply on market. They go primarily on supercaps, and those spread like cancer these days.
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Bibosikus
Gallente
Universal Moose Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.10 23:25:00 -
[9]
@Omara - I think you should look again at eve-central, and the market movement.
T2 Large Trimarks sell very rarely. Pilots simply don't buy them - ie. demand is almost non-existent.
Whatever belief you have in Supercaps buying these rigs, at least over the last couple of months, is unfounded.
Market movement is a direct indicator of 'opportunity cost' and therefore balanced pricing of an item which then sells.
To go back to the original issue:
Eve-central shows market movement of IAPs at 30-odd units.
In comparison, Logic circuits moved 1,400 units in the last 24 hours, and Power Circuits moved over 870.
These salvage items are used explicitly to build T2 rigs. IAPs for armor, the others (primarily) for shield.
QED.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.10 23:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Bibosikus
@Omara - I think you should look again at eve-central, and the market movement.
T2 Large Trimarks sell very rarely. Pilots simply don't buy them - ie. demand is almost non-existent.
Whatever belief you have in Supercaps buying these rigs, at least over the last couple of months, is unfounded.
Even if we pretend for a moment that evemet tells the whole story (lol?) and is gospel of our lord arbalest, you still cannot account for those rigs being contstructed in-house by alliance industrialists and those being sold direct (which is generally how supercap markets work) by manufacturing groups.
You seem to have put one slide of the equation under an electron microscope while you fail to recognize that you're looking at a fraction of the entire picture.
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Bibosikus
Gallente
Universal Moose Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.10 23:48:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk
...account for those rigs being contstructed in-house by alliance industrialists and those being sold direct
Uh, no.. I'm referring to the Eve open market, as available to 99% of players. Hardly microscopic.
What's constructed and sold in a closed environment isn't a market. It's a trade agreement.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.11.11 00:08:00 -
[12]
But it still skews the supply/demand ratio.
There is more demand for T2 armour rigs, because 3 (well, 2.5) races of ships can use them effectively. And of those... well... in the scenarios where T2 rigging will make a difference, armour rigs are the ones that are in demand - AB armour HACs, capitals/supercapitals, and RR battleships.
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Matalino
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Posted - 2010.11.11 00:21:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Bibosikus
Eve-central shows market movement of IAPs at 30-odd units.
Eve-central is not accurate. The average movement in The Forge during the past 7 days has been 415 units per day.
Don't rely on out of game data for your analysis. Make sure that your data is acurate. Originally by: Bibosikus
IAP's have been hitting 40+ mill per item on the market for some time, and it needs to stop.
That "some time" is 3 days. The price is already dropping. Notice the lack of buy orders above 36 million.
I would suspect an attemp at market manipulation, especially with the dumping of 816 units while the market was at its peak.
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Bibosikus
Gallente
Universal Moose Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.11 00:38:00 -
[14]
Gents, I readily accept your points are valid but..
They still do not detract from the ridiculous long-term discrepancy between the average price of IAPs and their counterparts. And that's simply because they are far too rare as salvage.
To reiterate: The drop-chance of IAPs in CCP's salvage tables is out of sync with Logic Circuits et al, and that is why, I believe, T2 armor rigs are so stupidly expensive compared to equivalent shield tanking rigs.
And I think it needs to be addressed.
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Nikolai Kondratiev
Sphere Design Inc.
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Posted - 2010.11.11 00:43:00 -
[15]
Checking forge market : 300-400 IAP sold per day (minus whatever percentage is bought+resold by traders) & about 10 large Trimark II + about 10-20 medium Trimark II + whatever else they might be used for.
It seems to me that as much, or more, Trimarks are traded than salvage mats needed to build them (without accounting for people buying salvage to build rigs that aren't going back to market) => demand >> supply => price keeps climbing until people stop fitting pimp ships / normal carriers with them
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Mining Crystal BPOs
Angel Ships |
Yelan Zhou
Amarr
Ba.theen Aljannatal Asaakitah
Celestial Imperative
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Posted - 2010.11.11 01:05:00 -
[16]
Sorry, it was me sweeping the market. I sold everything and the price might soon come down.
Please resize your signature to no more than 120 x 400 pixels - Adida
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Mavnas
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Posted - 2010.11.11 03:11:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Bibosikus
Edited by: Bibosikus on 10/11/2010 20:26:12
IAP's have been hitting 40+ mill per item on the market for some time, and it needs to stop.
...
There is no logic to any rig costing more than a capital ship. It's just purely, awfully, obviously wrong.
There's a very simple logic to it. Everyone wants T2 Armor rigs.
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Tandin
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.11.11 18:19:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Bibosikus
T2 Large Trimarks sell very rarely. Pilots simply don't buy them - ie. demand is almost non-existent.
Tell that to the rapidly expanding horde of nyx and aeon pilots. To be fair, most are probably building them themselves at the moment because the market is so jacked up. Which is a self feeding cycle due to limited supply.
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Headerman
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Posted - 2010.11.11 20:05:00 -
[19]
I also agree that the requirements to build trimark 2's are pretty ridiculous.
Unless of course, CCP made them specifically for caps.
But then, why aren't shield extender 2's as expensive?
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Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
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Posted - 2010.11.11 20:20:00 -
[20]
The reason that they are so expensive is because this thread is in the wrong damn forum
also kittens are dying because of this, please make it stop
---
☻♥ Problem? Therapy sessions ♥☻ |
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souhyeahright
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Posted - 2010.11.11 20:53:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Bibosikus
Gents, I readily accept your points are valid but..
They still do not detract from the ridiculous long-term discrepancy between the average price of IAPs and their counterparts. And that's simply because they are far too rare as salvage.
To reiterate: The drop-chance of IAPs in CCP's salvage tables is out of sync with Logic Circuits et al, and that is why, I believe, T2 armor rigs are so stupidly expensive compared to equivalent shield tanking rigs.
And I think it needs to be addressed.
Have you ever considered not being poor?
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.11 21:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Headerman
I also agree that the requirements to build trimark 2's are pretty ridiculous.
Unless of course, CCP made them specifically for caps.
But then, why aren't shield extender 2's as expensive?
Probably because they want some idiot to think flying an lolshieldtanked supercap is "cost effective." 
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